View Full Version : The Snake Oil Machine
AD Audio
17-07-2018, 17:14
23811
I'm surprised at the normally respected Hi Fi World for publishing this with a complete lack of scientific scrutiny. I'll bet it plays havoc with earth lift systems-if it isn't some crude attempt at retrofitting one.......
Nothing that one couldn't do for about £5 or less! :rolleyes:
But if you think that is 'snake oil', check out the Entreq 'grounding boxes': http://www.lotushifi.co.uk/portfolio-items/entreq-grounding-boxes/. Looks like they are little more than a wooden box filled with coal. :scratch:
Mags review what they think the punters want to read about I suppose.
Spectral Morn
17-07-2018, 18:35
23811
I'm surprised at the normally respected Hi Fi World for publishing this with a complete lack of scientific scrutiny. I'll bet it plays havoc with earth lift systems-if it isn't some crude attempt at retrofitting one.......
Have you tried it ? I doubt it, so this is another take the piss of what we haven't tried type of thread. Frankly I am getting tired of these. Just once it would make a refreshing change to read a post and thread where someone has actually tried, heard the source of their derision.
narabdela
17-07-2018, 18:40
I'm afraid that Hi-Fi and scientific scrutiny are uncomfortable bedfellows. Religious belief would be a better fit.
(see above post).
Have you tried it ? I doubt it, so this is another take the piss of what we haven't tried type of thread. Frankly I am getting tired of these. Just once it would make a refreshing change to read a post and thread where someone has actually tried, heard the source of their derision.
But where do we draw the line? If someone posts that placing a banana on top of your pre-amp improves sound-staging do we have to try it before we can say it doesn't? How silly does it have to get? If we can establish that now then it will save any bother in the future.
Have you tried it ? I doubt it, so this is another take the piss of what we haven't tried type of thread. Frankly I am getting tired of these. Just once it would make a refreshing change to read a post and thread where someone has actually tried, heard the source of their derision.
What this cable is doing is connecting the signal earth (at a point somewhere along the signal path) to the mains earth. I can well believe it could have an audible effect, depending on the equipment it is used with. And those audible effects may, or may not be beneficial and an improvement.
My complaint is not that it might produce audible benefits, rather that one can make up a cable that will do the same for a lot less than the £300 to £700 asked. I don't believe there is anything special about any of the component parts: the 13A plug, the RCA plug, or the cable that connects between them.
My complaint is not that it might produce audible benefits, rather that one can make up a cable that will do the same for a lot less than the £300 to £700 asked. I don't believe there is anything special about any of the component parts: the 13A plug, the RCA plug, or the cable that connects between them.
Not so. In actual fact The Wall-Plug is upgraded with Bincho-Tan, a form of Ubame oak charcoal from Japan which absorbs EMI and RF as well as emitting negative ions. This results in a drastic overall reduction in noise and a huge improvement in soundstaging, imaging and purity of tone.
Without the Bincho-Tan you've got nothing.
Would a 6B graphite pencil be just as good?
Is it a Japanese 6B graphite pencil obtained by questing through a forest inhabited by magic ponies and Godzilla? If not then no.
Not even if it had been blessed by the Dali Lama?
Not even if it had been blessed by the Dali Lama?
Only if he is also a respected hi-fi journalist in his spare time.
walpurgis
17-07-2018, 20:57
We thrashed it out over this 'gizmo' a while back. I made a simple rig to test the idea, with predictable results.
http://i63.tinypic.com/2lkwvw7.jpg
Original thread here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?55600-Noise-reduction&highlight=bincho+tan
montesquieu
17-07-2018, 21:28
Thanks. I missed the original thread (I was away over Christmas last year). Needed some cheering up today!:lol:
walpurgis
17-07-2018, 21:35
Needed some cheering up today!:lol:
You and me both. I'm very down at the moment. I won't elaborate.
From my experience, having followed good earthing practice that is more likely to introduce hum.
Spectral Morn
17-07-2018, 22:13
Typical responses.
I too was busy with house guests last Christmas, so missed the earlier thread.
I think all that could be said, was said - and it is interesting to note that those proudly claiming to have an open mind were not sufficiently moved to buy a 'thoroughbred' cable at £200 to try.
Has anyone here tried the Entreq 'grounding boxes'?
Has anyone here tried the Entreq 'grounding boxes'?
Morning Barry,
We affectionately refer to Entreq as Vampire poo, I will start by saying we do not sell these products, though we have customers that use them, they have invested in them after a tail period and seem happy with their purchases. Though the quality of the connecting cables does leave a lot to be desired imho.
I am sure the more capable on here could fabricate some more acceptable alternatives.
Does it work, the people that own it feel they do, again we do not sell these products.
nonuffin
18-07-2018, 08:38
You and me both. I'm very down at the moment. I won't elaborate.
The male menopause can be be a real bitch :lol:
Firebottle
18-07-2018, 09:08
Vampire poo,
Vampire poo, I love it Tony :D
It's this sort of thing that gives over-priced shite a bad name.
Again this all boils down to does it work for you YES or NO, if you have tried it and you like then buy it (what ever it is), if you have tried and feel it doesn't work then send it back no obligation simple.
I have many friends (I you find that hard to believe :D) that spend equal sums of money on what we may consider daft purchases, one good buddy is a real keen fisherman and couple of years ago he spent £5000 on a roach pole :mental: but his is perfectly comfortable with his purchase and no his not on some high powered six figure salary. A wife, smallish mortgage and zero brats :eek: His priorities lie elsewhere.
Another good friend is potty about road racing (push bikes) and thinks nothing of spending £700+ on the latest Titanium super saddle stem etc :stalks:
On the flip side a very good friend lives a few doors away, after a messy divorce he got away with just the house a crappy LP12, a well used Nait 2 and an ok pair of Linn Kans
A few years done the line I rebuilt the LP12, improved the Nait2 and refreshed the Kan's not an expensive system but it plays music well, he would not dream of spending more than threepence hap-nee on anything audio, yet he drives a very nice three year old AMG
You pays your money and makes your choice where that is a pair of Raurk Broadswords or Wilson Grand Slamm's we all have our own interests it is a personal thing nothing more.
Again this all boils down to does it work for you YES or NO, if you have tried it and you like then buy it (what ever it is), if you have tried and feel it doesn't work then send it back no obligation simple.
I have many friends (I you find that hard to believe :D) that spend equal sums of money on what we may consider daft purchases, one good buddy is a real keen fisherman and couple of years ago he spent £5000 on a roach pole :mental: but his is perfectly comfortable with his purchase and no his not on some high powered six figure salary. A wife, smallish mortgage and zero brats :eek: His priorities lie elsewhere.
Another good friend is potty about road racing (push bikes) and thinks nothing of spending £700+ on the latest Titanium super saddle stem etc :stalks:
On the flip side a very good friend lives a few doors away, after a messy divorce he got away with just the house a crappy LP12, a well used Nait 2 and an ok pair of Linn Kans
A few years done the line I rebuilt the LP12, improved the Nait2 and refreshed the Kan's not an expensive system but it plays music well, he would not dream of spending more than threepence hap-nee on anything audio, yet he drives a very nice three year old AMG
You pays your money and makes your choice where that is a pair of Raurk Broadswords or Wilson Grand Slamm's we all have our own interests it is a personal thing nothing more.
At least the £5K roach pole actually does something whereas this product - and many others - are just aimed at people who have not yet figured out that your mind can play tricks on you. They'd be better off spending the money on a psychology text book.
There is an earth lift switch on my sub-woofer and you can clearly hear the difference between the two positions - it’s very easy and quick to demonstrate. Neither position results in any hum through the speakers, my system is very well behaved in that regard, but you can hear a subjective effect on apparent clarity and dynamic.
My phonostage has an earth 'lift', which introduces a 10 Ohm resistor between the signal ground and the case metal work. I instinctively set it to the 'lift' position, but since to alter the setting means delving inside the amplifier I haven't done an A/B comparison.
Ground loops do not automatically guarantee hum: the amount of induced noise depends on the effective area of the loop. When one uses a three terminal Decca cartridge, which has a single signal return terminal, one has to choose what to do with the second signal return in the pickup arm. One can either ignore it, which can cause a hum problem (it did in my setup), or one can connect the two returns together which will create a loop. But because the two returns run parallel to one another and are very close together the area of the loop is very small and there isn't a problem (it wasn't in my system).
If the cable under discussion is run parallel and very close to the mains cable, then the susceptibility to hum pick up could be very low; low enough not to be audible. But to do that the mains socket into which it is plugged has to be as close to the socket into which the mains powered item is plugged as possible. Or it may have a 10 - 100 Ohm series resistor hiding under the 'bulge' in the webbing.
Spectral Morn
18-07-2018, 14:24
Correct. This is a classic way to create an earth loop. Of course, many modern amps and sources aren't earthed at all and adding an earth connection somewhere in such a system won't create an earth loop - but in other systems there's a distinct possibility that it will.
I agree. The "you haven't tried it so you can't comment" attitude is basically just a defence of (or excuse for) scientific ignorance.
Pretty common response in threads such as these, a pretty typical one from your type.
At this point I am going to bow out before I say something I will regret, that lets me down personally and AoS.
Ammonite Audio
18-07-2018, 14:44
I thought that ‘science’ was supposed to be all about things that are known, and being open-minded and inquisistive about things that are not yet fully understood, or indeed known. That comes across a bit ‘Donald Rumsfeld’ but if science and scientists never moved forward, we would still be talking about phlogiston, rather than quantum physics which most definitely challenges most accepted wisdoms, yet already has real world uses and applications.
So, when some people hear things that cannot be explained with ohm’s law and Joseph Fourier, maybe these people are correct and entrenched ‘scientific’ dogma is not. Real science comes with curiosity and humility, so I’m with Neil on this one.
Pretty common response in threads such as these, a pretty typical one from your type.
At this point I am going to bow out before I say something I will regret, that lets me down personally and AoS.
A phrase such as that Neil, isn't helping your argument.
Are there no items or accessories which you think are absurd and would not give them the time of day? What about the ideas of the late Peter Belt - many of them were cheap to implement, if not free, despite being regarded by many as absurd.
" People don't just try things at random in the hope that the fundamental building blocks of their engineering discipline are all wrong and in fact, for example, icing sugar is a great material for building a suspension bridge.
.
I'm sorry but unless you have tried building a bridge out of icing sugar then you have absolutely no right to comment. All that previous life experience and all that book learning you did is completely worthless.
Only immediate I priori experiences are acceptable proof of anything since they are completely and 100% reliable at all times and in all situations even if there are absolutely no controls whatsoever.
my neighbour reckons that if he attaches some cardboard wings to his arms he can jump off his roof and soar majestically like an eagle. When I suggested that all scientific research to date indicates that he will plummet to his death he advised me that as I have not personally tried flying with cardboard wings I am in no position to comment.
His funeral is next Friday.
What point are you making Martin? Your last paragraph seems to neatly contradict your first.
What point are you making Martin? Your last paragraph seems to neatly contradict your first.
It's almost as if sarcasm doesn't work on the Internet.
walpurgis
18-07-2018, 15:36
It's almost as if sarcasm doesn't work on the Internet.
It probably doesn't. Nobody seems to notice when I'm sarcastic...........or maybe they've just got used to it?
It's almost as if sarcasm doesn't work on the Internet.
My powers are useless!
It probably doesn't. Nobody seems to notice when I'm sarcastic...........or maybe they've just got used to it?
Yeah, right.
At this point I am going to bow out before I say something I will regret, that lets me down personally and AoS.
Ah, gwan, you know you want to.
Stratmangler
18-07-2018, 16:15
my neighbour reckons that if he attaches some cardboard wings to his arms he can jump off his roof and soar majestically like an eagle. When I suggested that all scientific research to date indicates that he will plummet to his death he advised me that as I have not personally tried flying with cardboard wings I am in no position to comment.
His funeral is next Friday.
If your neighbour reckons anything it indicates that he's not yet dead.
So why is his funeral next Friday? :scratch:
So why is his funeral next Friday? :scratch:
You don't want bodies hanging round too long in this hot weather.
Firebottle
18-07-2018, 16:21
Should have used a paraglider.
Stratmangler
18-07-2018, 16:28
cNSedcIKXWI
A phrase such as that Neil, isn't helping your argument.
Are there no items or accessories which you think are absurd and would not give them the time of day? What about the ideas of the late Peter Belt - many of them were cheap to implement, if not free, despite being regarded by many as absurd.
I asked Neil earlier on what he considered the cut off point to be but no response. I thought it was a reasonable and very pertinent question. If there is to be no cut off point then I really struggle with that, it seems irrational and illogical.
I'm all for the idea that the Universe is stranger than we can imagine. But there's a big gap for me between that and chancers exploiting human psychology to sell quack remedies. This cable is obviously in the latter camp.
When I was in sales my job was to sell tat for more than it was worth, and for more than you could buy it elsewhere. You were not allowed to lie but you could 'paint a picture' and draw the punter into a world where the purchase made sense to him. That's why the advert for this product has no experimental results to show the claimed dramatic reduction in the noise floor but instead highlights the use of some supposedly rare and exotic Japanese charcoal that has special properties. As soon as you encounter something like that in any sales pitch, you know you are being mugged off.
It's almost as if sarcasm doesn't work on the Internet.
Ah, indeed :).
sq225917
18-07-2018, 19:04
Mark, why not enliven the thread with the tales of your latest acquisition. I heard Paul's last night.
My DC Blocker? Is it relebvant to the thread? I don’t know about how Paul has wired his but mine doesn’t alter the way the system is earthed at all. I am really pleased with it though - much better than smaller examples. It has completely quelled the variable transformer buzz I used to get and the system sounds better as well - win, win :).
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/markemark_2006/DC%20Blocker/3AD66962-E366-4108-9400-4AAED1B2D5E0_zpscu7zyymx.jpg (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/markemark_2006/media/DC%20Blocker/3AD66962-E366-4108-9400-4AAED1B2D5E0_zpscu7zyymx.jpg.html)
Is it an example of a ‘snake oil’ product? I don’t know, I mean it says it blocks (or traps) DC on the mains and that is what it does. I suppose the argument revolves around whether one actually needs it or not?
What did you find at Paul’s Si?
A DC - blocker is not an example of "snake oil". It does what it says; it removes the presence of DC on the mains to items downstream from it. How it does it is well understood and explained by current electronic theory. Its use does not necessarily guarantee the elimination of mains 'buzz' from all transformers, but it can be very effective in a lot of cases. (If the DC level is 100mV or greater, this can cause toroidal transformers having a rating 100VA or more to 'buzz' mechanically.)
I don't know if this DC-blocker costs £299 or more (I would hope considerably less), but it has clearly cured the problem you once had.
Amongst other smaller transformers there are three 500VA transformers in my system and it is these that would vary in terms of mechanical hum; as you say, this is a well known issue with large value toroidal transformers. I made the unit above, but it’s based on a kit circuit board (you can buy them already populated with components).
http://sjostromaudio.net/shop/mains-circuits/61-dct03-dc-filter-for-toroidal-transformers-heavy-duty-version.html
walpurgis
18-07-2018, 22:56
I bought the kit Mark, but have yet to assemble it. I'm hoping to quiet a vibratory mains transformer in one of my DACs. It may not work of course, but it can't hurt to try.
If the buzz is continuous it probably won’t do anything as it is likely loose windings etc. - fingers crossed though :).
I asked Neil earlier on what he considered the cut off point to be but no response. I thought it was a reasonable and very pertinent question. If there is to be no cut off point then I really struggle with that, it seems irrational and illogical.
I'm all for the idea that the Universe is stranger than we can imagine. But there's a big gap for me between that and chancers exploiting human psychology to sell quack remedies. This cable is obviously in the latter camp.
When I was in sales my job was to sell tat for more than it was worth, and for more than you could buy it elsewhere. You were not allowed to lie but you could 'paint a picture' and draw the punter into a world where the purchase made sense to him. That's why the advert for this product has no experimental results to show the claimed dramatic reduction in the noise floor but instead highlights the use of some supposedly rare and exotic Japanese charcoal that has special properties. As soon as you encounter something like that in any sales pitch, you know you are being mugged off.
I’ll agree, as a man of science, I understand that i don’t know everything, but the theory offered has to at least make some kind of sense. If their reasoning defies logic, it falls into question. I.e., charcoal is burnt wood, is it logical that being from Japan would somehow make this burnt wood have unique properties? Perhaps logic is in the eye of the beholder?
And there is also the telltale sales pitch, their theory that lacks any real known science is backed up by personal endorsements from unknown people. And even if it might make a minor difference, that’s not good enough it must be life altering! Many vails lifted, blackest blacks, etc. it becomes predictable.
And thirdly, I don’t care if it does have sound science, can they justify the price? So many times, the answer is no. Some of the best speakers in the world cost $150,000! For a wooden box with speaker elements in it. Sure it may actually be the best speaker on earth! But can they justify that price? Not to me they can’t. Should a box two foot square and five feet tall cost as much as a house? I’m sorry, I can’t get my head around that. If I were suddenly a billionaire, I still doubt I could bring myself to pay such an unreasonable sum. I’ve heard respected reviewers going on about cables that cost $12,000, I’m sorry, it cannot be that good, no matter what. But that’s just me, those are my standards. I don’t expect everyone else to comply to my standards. But, if one should ask me if I think it’s a good deal? I’m going to say no.
Russell
These things (or at least a proof of concept) are easy to DIY so why not at least try it?
Tried one made from a length of Isotek shielded mains cable, a "Plugg" (tm) and an MS.Audio phono connector.
Just disconnect and isolate the live and neutral wires and connect the earth wire to the earth tab of the phono plug.
Plug it into any unused rca socket to provide direct earthing from the signal board, not just the chassis.
Kit dependant of course, you may be providing a better earth (and removing electrical mush?) to the bit that actually processes the signal, so maybe worth a try...who knows.
Mixed results, but this makes a difference in my opinion.
Tried it on my Densen Pre...added an earth loop and a wonderful hum, so out it went.
Lowered the noise floor on my Dac though, result.
The cable is staying as it makes an improvement.
Somethings making a difference and Im happy to keep it in.
im ok DIYing for a few quid, but wouldn't pay the asking price for a commercial one.
Could be better, could be no better...but not taking a punt at that price.
Happy I tried it.
As with all systems, the law of limiting factors comes in, this producing diminishing returns as more an more R&D is financed.
We all have limited finances, and so have to define a cut-off point beyond which we at not prepared to go.
To me snake oil is utterly inexcusable because so rarely is there any empirical validation of the product, let alone science to back it up.
I've just jumped from a pair of speakers costing about £2k to a pair costing £25k, yes they are better, but is that difference worth it, and do I now think about a £150k pair?
As with all systems, the law of limiting factors comes in, this producing diminishing returns as more an more R&D is financed.
We all have limited finances, and so have to define a cut-off point beyond which we at not prepared to go.
To me snake oil is utterly inexcusable because so rarely is there any empirical validation of the product, let alone science to back it up.
I've just jumped from a pair of speakers costing about £2k to a pair costing £25k, yes they are better, but is that difference worth it, and do I now think about a £150k pair?
It’s true that Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Moving up the food chain with speakers is not snake oil, as you’ve said, yes, they are better!
I can understand there are R&D costs, but when spread out over many thousand pairs of speakers, it shouldn’t be more than a few dollars. And of course the cost of advertising, participating in all the hi fi shows, etc. etc. that can jack the cost of an audio product, but once again, if you spread that cost out across many thousand pairs they expect to sell, it should be affordable. Then Marketing costs, the dealers share, shipping costs, etc. So, then comes production costs, what does it actually cost to buy the parts and assemble this speaker? It can probably be argued that $10,000, $20,000 can be a reasonable asking price, depending on the complexity of such speakers. But, what happens when they go north of $100,000? Then, they begin to have a hard time justifying their price. It’s certainly not in the materials, as I was saying you can build a large house with that much money! It’s not a 12 cylinder Ferrari, it’s a wooden box, with speakers in it. Made of paper, copper windings and steel frame. The materials, whatever they are, are not that exotic. And the science behind it is not magic! Theil and Small came up with all the equations needed to design a speaker many, many years ago. If you ask them to justify the price, you can be sure they will decline to do so. It’s just like a Rolex watch, or diamond ring, it’s just a toy for the filthy rich to show off their wealth, to own what others can not afford. In fact, if they didn’t charge so much money for it, the filthy rich probably wouldn’t want it? Are they better than your $25k speakers? You can bet it’s not by much, if at all.
Russell
I've just jumped from a pair of speakers costing about £2k to a pair costing £25k, yes they are better, but is that difference worth it, and do I now think about a £150k pair?
Depends on a) what you mean by 'worth it' and b) how much money you've got. If you could easily afford a £150k pair, I can't see why you wouldn't want to hear what they could do. Even if the improvement is relatively small, but still perceptibly improves on the £25k pair, why not? It's your money. People will pay many multiples of £25k for a house with one more bedroom, or in a 'nicer' area than where they're currently living. (Obviously there's no point tormenting yourself if you could never afford the £150k pair).
Most people would think that what I have done is completely inappropriate and disproportional given my income status, and I even feel guilty at having bought my current speakers. (I don't run a car).
I'm certainly not going any further, and they were bought from the results of a legal case, and to me were devoid of the 'jewellery' problem.
George47
21-07-2018, 09:41
Whether we like it or not a lot of companies sell products for what the market will bear rather than what it is worth. In hifi, it is often stated that equipment sells for about 5x its manufacture costs. But audio is not unique, that mobile phone in your pocket costs very little to make in China but there is so much demand for iphone10s they can charge £1,000. Same for laptops and destop computers. And cosmetics and druges are even worse.
And once you get to cables then the multiplier can become very big with some companies re-badging cheap cables made elsewhere at a suitable mark up (Chord?)
However, a lot of these companies soon disappear. Although the markup is high the lifetime is not.
Fortunately, it is even shorter for the real snake oil charmers where you pay $XX for a phone call.
Back to the product for a sec...DIY one and report back what you think?
AD Audio
28-07-2018, 13:41
My original point was not so much about the product but the lack of scientific scrutiny or analysis by Hi Fi World. Normally they would give a good run down and technical test on a product eg 'uses a Burr Brown DAC and discrete output stage' along with some measurements which might show noise reducing by a few dB or whatever. But in this case we're expected to take everything on trust
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Fair point David,
but how would you measure it...impedance, continuity?
Things like that I’d run a mile if I wasnt able to demo it in my system first.
Guess they gave a subjective opinion and sometimes the science bit isn’t there to back it up.
I.e. Valve amps measure worse but can sound better, turntables have limited frequency range compared to CD, but why can they sound better.
worth at least trying maybe, not at that price though without a home trial.
...kinda thing. :)
I notice that no-one has commented on Hugo's excellent post earlier, which certainly sums up things from my point of view... That's usually the case on these threads when someone says something sensible;)
Marco.
Not been following this tbh but I agree with him
I hadn't been following this thread either, but let's just quote Hugo's post again, as it hits the nail on the head:
I thought that ‘science’ was supposed to be all about things that are known, and being open-minded and inquisistive about things that are not yet fully understood, or indeed known. That comes across a bit ‘Donald Rumsfeld’ but if science and scientists never moved forward, we would still be talking about phlogiston, rather than quantum physics which most definitely challenges most accepted wisdoms, yet already has real world uses and applications.
So, when some people hear things that cannot be explained with ohm’s law and Joseph Fourier, maybe these people are correct and entrenched ‘scientific’ dogma is not. Real science comes with curiosity and humility, so I’m with Neil on this one.
:cool:
Marco.
Stratmangler
28-07-2018, 22:07
I hadn't been following this thread either, but let's just quote Hugo's post again, as it hits the nail on the head:
:cool:
Marco.
The thing to bear in mind is that there's nothing mystical going on with the product brought to light in the OP.
The majority of audio equipment complies with class 2 electrical regs, and doesn't have a protective ground on it.
Using one of the leads in question directly connects the signal ground to mains ground, which may or may not have audible effects. You could knock up a lead for less than £5.00 that may not look as pretty, but it'll do the same job.
There is one thing that isn't considered, and that's induced RFI on the ground connection.
Oh, and under fault conditions your equipment becomes toast :eyebrows:
A scientific theory only holds for as long as it can explain known phenomena. If a phenomenon or effect is discovered, one which is independantly observable and repeatable, then the current theory has to be revised or even replaced. The new theory not only has to explain the newly discovered phenomenon but must continue to explain the previously known phenomena. And ideally it should predict new results which are then looked for to test the theory. Karl Popper showed that theories can only be falsifiable: that is, you can't prove them to be correct, you can only show them to be false, by finding a phenomenon which the theory can't explain.
With respect to 'snake oil' or other contentious devices, tweaks, or treatments, the problem is that the effects reported are not universally agreed upon: some will hear them, others will not. Thus there is little incentive to try and explain them, as some will claim there is nothing to explain.
narabdela
28-07-2018, 23:39
I notice that no-one has commented on Hugo's excellent post earlier, which certainly sums up things from my point of view... That's usually the case on these threads when someone says something sensible;)
Marco.
...or maybe some of us thought it was pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo and decided to maintain a discrete silence, rather than get involved in pointless cyclical argument? We all have a point of view.
...or maybe some of us thought it was pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo and decided to maintain a discrete silence, rather than get involved in pointless cyclical argument? We all have a point of view.
He's suggesting that there are physical properties to audio systems that science does not know about or cannot explain but which are in fact real. The probability of this being true is very small. So suggesting it as a mechanism for how fantastic tweaks work is not especially useful. It also does not explain how manufacturers invent and develop these products when they don't have any science to work with. Is it just trial and error? Do they just throw different materials together randomly in the hope that something clicks?
We all know that they don't do that. What they do is make it look fancy, make a load of completely unsubstantiated claims for what it does, and then charge as much as the market will bear. You'd think that would be obvious to everyone. Possibly a more interesting question/topic is why it isn't.
He's suggesting that there are physical properties to audio systems that science does not know about or cannot explain but which are in fact real. The probability of this being true is very small. So suggesting it as a mechanism for how fantastic tweaks work is not especially useful. It also does not explain how manufacturers invent and develop these products when they don't have any science to work with. Is it just trial and error? Do they just throw different materials together randomly in the hope that something clicks?
We all know that they don't do that. What they do is make it look fancy, make a load of completely unsubstantiated claims for what it does, and then charge as much as the market will bear. You'd think that would be obvious to everyone. Possibly a more interesting question/topic is why it isn't.
It's a combination of the power of advertising and human gullibility. It's evident not just in hifi, but in such things as 'designer' labels, which carry a price premium not because of any intrinsic value, but because of the cachet associated with a certain name.
The key point, which Barry raised above, but which the 'believers' won't answer, is where do you draw the line? At what point does a tweak, even if free or very cheap, cross the line between 'worth a try' and 'sheer nutjobbery'? People got cross with Peter Belt because his ideas seemed ludicrous, yet they were no more ludicrous than some stuff sold by reputable dealers which cannot have the effect claimed, or which is crazily over-priced even if it does have a (minor) effect.
hifi_dave
29-07-2018, 09:00
I have no problems with the 'snake oil' products. If people believe they work, that is all well and good. What I object to is the grossly inflated prices of most of these items, which could be sold for a fraction of the cost and still do the job.
It's a combination of the power of advertising and human gullibility. It's evident not just in hifi, but in such things as 'designer' labels, which carry a price premium not because of any intrinsic value, but because of the cachet associated with a certain name.
The key point, which Barry raised above, but which the 'believers' won't answer, is where do you draw the line? At what point does a tweak, even if free or very cheap, cross the line between 'worth a try' and 'sheer nutjobbery'?
I have also asked that question on this thread a couple of times but as you say, no-one wants to answer it because there is no answer they can give. The logic of irrational tweakery falls at that fence every time.
To badly paraphrase Frank Zappa...
Discussing audio tweaks without trying them for yourself (for free or very cheaply) is like dancing about Architecture.
A lot of "absolutes" getting thrown around here, just make up a DIY version see for yourself if the theory is bullshit.
Some say it is, some say there's at least SOME theory to it...just try it and find out for yourself.
No-one else curious?
To badly paraphrase Frank Zappa...
Discussing audio tweaks without trying them for yourself (for free or very cheaply) is like dancing about Architecture.
A lot of "absolutes" getting thrown around here...
Precisely, Gaz. I abhor absolutism with a passion, and indeed it has NO place on this forum, so some folks here need to re-familiarise themselves with the AoS ethos, and that this is, let me outline for clarity: a staunchly subjectivist 'ears first' forum, where the subjectivist mindset will *always* be given priority.
Staunchly objectivist opinions will only be permitted if they show due respect for the subjectivist mindset, don't descend into personal remarks, such as "nutjobbery" and the like, and most importantly also don't descend into blinkered absolutism.
If I see any more of that type of input here, it'll be removed without further warning and the thread closed. Bans will also be handed out for repeated offenders.
I can see why Neil gets so frustrated trying to have these types of discussions with folk with such deeply-entrenched views, and who are unable to express their (undoubtedly legitimate) opinions without simultaneously deriding those of others, and insulting them personally.
It also flies in the face of the healthy (sceptical when necessary) open-mindedness I value and seek to promote on this forum, as I have little time for eternal cynics (with scant respect for others of a different mindset) and who, in reality, do nothing to advance our further learning in this hobby.
I hope that this message is crystal clear!
Marco.
To badly paraphrase Frank Zappa...
Discussing audio tweaks without trying them for yourself (for free or very cheaply) is like dancing about Architecture.
A lot of "absolutes" getting thrown around here, just make up a DIY version see for yourself if the theory is bullshit.
Some say it is, some say there's at least SOME theory to it...just try it and find out for yourself.
No-one else curious?
Geoff has done exactly that here https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?55600-Noise-reduction&highlight=bincho+tan and reported that he heard no difference.
Geoff has done exactly that here https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?55600-Noise-reduction&highlight=bincho+tan and reported that he heard no difference.
As have I, and I did. :)
Slight improvements to both Dac and Oppo bluray player.
Not night and day but every little 'elps and worth having.
A lot of factors come into play so very system dependent maybe?
Using one of the leads in question directly connects the signal ground to mains ground, which may or may not have audible effects. You could knock up a lead for less than £5.00 that may not look as pretty, but it'll do the same job.
There is one thing that isn't considered, and that's induced RFI on the ground connection.
Oh, and under fault conditions your equipment becomes toast :eyebrows:
Indeed - I am currently using a Class II compliant integrated amp .... and I am certainly not going to risk the continued use of it (or the safety of myself and my family) trying out some some screwball device thought up by an American company as a means to extract money from the pockets of gullible or superstitious punters. By the same token I would not DIY any device unless I could be reasonably sure that it's operation would not incur such risks.
Staunchly objectivist opinions will only be permitted if they show due respect to the subjectivist mindset, don't descend into personal remarks, such as "nutjobbery" and the like, and most importantly also don't descend into blinkered absolutism.
If I see any more of that type of input here, it'll be removed without further warning and the thread closed. Bans will also be handed out for repeated offenders.
I'm sorry Marco but it would seem that posting to this forum is rapidly becoming too much of a minefield with an increased risk that any post might fall foul of some new edict or other.
I would ask that if any more 'ban prone' categories are introduced that you enable the option (on the forum software) for members to delete their names and details from the forum database.
I for one would no longer wish to be part of it.
Stratmangler
29-07-2018, 12:15
As have I, and I did. :)
Slight improvements to both Dac and Oppo bluray player.
Not night and day but every little 'elps and worth having.
A lot of factors come into play so very system dependent maybe?
Not really a lot of factors.
Just different earthing strategies.
narabdela
29-07-2018, 12:19
Mm, I see that my latest post has been removed. I'm afraid Marco, that your "My way or the highway" attitude is beginning to piss people off. I realise that you're the forum owner, but censoring opinion is no way to run a forum.
I agree with mikmas. Include me out.
Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish.
Insulting folk here then wondering why a post is removed is odd behaviour..
walpurgis
29-07-2018, 12:39
People should be able to cope with moderation or not join forums!
Also, it seems strange to take exception to a possible topic ban which has been given a thread for discussion and a vote offered to members, to keep things democratic.
I'm sorry Marco but it would seem that posting to this forum is rapidly becoming too much of a minefield with an increased risk that any post might fall foul of some new edict or other.
I would ask that if any more 'ban prone' categories are introduced that you enable the option (on the forum software) for members to delete their names and details from the forum database.
I for one would no longer wish to be part of it.
So you think you should be able to insult folk, directly or indirectly, while expressing a legitimate contrary opinion? I'm not saying you did that, but some folk's posting style here has distinctly smacked of that attitude.
*That* is all I'm objecting to, and outlining what you should already know, that this is first and foremost a subjectivist forum, so it's only to be expected that the subjectivist mindset is given priority.
If you can't understand, appreciate and respect both of the above, and what is a perfectly reasonable position to take in the circumstances, then I'm afraid, Mike, that's not my problem.
Marco.
Mm, I see that my latest post has been removed. I'm afraid Marco, that your "My way or the highway" attitude is beginning to piss people off. I realise that you're the forum owner, but censoring opinion is no way to run a forum.
Hugh, your earlier post was deleted before you had read my warning, so that was fine, but it had to be removed afterwards in line with the warning I had just given.
However, aside from that, I'm afraid that making remarks such as "my bullshit meter's too sensitive", simply serves no constructive purpose, and is only likely to irk those who have bought the "bullshit" you're referring to, or believe in the effect of what you consider as such. You need to think about the language you use to express yourself and how others may perceive it.
As I've said, there is simply no excuse for any intelligent person, with a modicum of self-awareness, to need to make derogatory remarks towards others, whilst expressing their contrary opinion - and *that* is what is unacceptable here, NOT holding a contrary opinion. You can get your point across perfectly well without having to insult someone, or what they believe in.
Members must realise that they should treat people with EXACTLY the same respect, as would be the case in a face-to-face conversation, and that such civility is a core part of how we conduct ourselves here.
Marco.
People should be able to cope with moderation or not join forums!
Also, it seems strange to take exception to a possible topic ban which has been given a thread for discussion and a vote offered to members, to keep things democratic.
Exactly on both counts, Geoff! We're not running a 'help yourself service' here, and neither is any other forum. There are rules and acceptable standards of behaviour to adhere to. You simply can't just do and say what you like.
The latter, in bold, is particularly spot on, but some folks seem only able to see what they want to see.
Marco.
So you think you should be able to insult folk, directly or indirectly, while expressing a legitimate contrary opinion? I'm not saying you did that, but some folk's posting style here has distinctly smacked of that attitude.
I doubt anyone has objections to a properly formulated and impartially implemented 'ad hominem' rule ... although I do think that 'smacked of that attitude' rather dodgy grounds in that respect.
What I do have an issue with is the term 'blinkered absolutism' which is at best nebulous but at worse open to various degrees of interpretation. This runs the same risk as the (very likely) ban on 'political topics' - who defines what constitutes 'political' or for that matter 'absolutist' in the context of each discussion and how transparent is that process to the 'run of the mill' member.?
Quite apart from that, I do think that if any member who has come the conclusion that the direction a forum is going in is no longer their cup of tea (regardless of what they initially signed up to) they should have the option of leaving and having all data relating to their membership removed - particularly in the light of the recent re-focusing on data protection and the rights of the individual in relation to their cyber presence.
The forum software providers have built in that option - it is up to forum owners/administrators to switch it on or off.
That's a perfectly acceptable post, Mike, which I'll reply to later. But right now, I'm going to have my Sunday lunch, which could take some time, so I'm going to lock this thread until then, and reopen it for further comment later:)
Marco.
Hi Mike,
Sorry for the delay. Sunday lunches here aren't just lunches, but family social occasions, and so when you're eating, talking and enjoying a few glasses of wine together, time just flies! Anyway....
I doubt anyone has objections to a properly formulated and impartially implemented 'ad hominem' rule ...
Excellent, so are you volunteering to help? I can offer you a position on the team if you like!
I'm joking, but also serious, because it's all too easy sitting and criticising from the sidelines (anyone can do that), but it's a rather different story actually dedicating the time and effort required to carry out what seems like a simple task, particularly on a busy forum such as this, where popular threads can quickly run into multiple pages before you know it, and especially if your life doesn't just revolve around AoS!
That's the reason why I locked the thread, to go and have lunch, because if I hadn't, it'd have probably run away with itself by now. Therefore, for once, it would be nice if folks saw things from OUR point of view, and in terms of *minimising* our workload, not increasing it;)
What I do have an issue with is the term 'blinkered absolutism' which is at best nebulous but at worse open to various degrees of interpretation.
Fair enough, but blinkered absolutism is often what I see, and more often than not from those from a pro-science position, although some subjectivists too, are also guilty. It manifests itself as the perpetrator resolutely insisting that there is only 'one true path' for analysing or explaining any aspect of audio, either measurement/science-based or 'ears' based, when in reality BOTH are important, and so any sensible person usually occupies the middle ground.
I have a big problem with absolutism for that reason, as invariably the truths in life, and in audio, occupy the middle of two extremes, in this case between staunchly objectivist and subjectivist thinking, in relation to hi-fi.
However, as this is unashamedly a staunchly subjectivist forum, the subjectivist mindset will always be given priority, within reason (based largely upon whether or not their argument is conducted civilly), and so objectivists who we consider [ultimately it will be down to my judgement] are guilty of absolutist (black and white) thinking, along the lines of 'anything that can't be proven via measurement/adhering to known parameters, text books or blind testing, is imaginary bullshit', will always be given short shrift!
And some of the comments made here earlier appeared to display that type of thinking. Now if that offends your sensibilities, or anyone else's here, then I'm sorry, but that's just how it is, and how it will always be on AoS.
This runs the same risk as the (very likely) ban on 'political topics' - who defines what constitutes 'political' or for that matter 'absolutist' in the context of each discussion and how transparent is that process to the 'run of the mill' member.?
Firstly, as I've already said on the politics vote thread, if in the final analysis, there is very little between the 'yes' and 'no' vote, then I will give priority to the 'no' vote, so seeing how close things stand as of now, unless at the end there is a big swing towards a 'yes' vote, it's very likely there will be no ban on discussing political topics, and things will stay as they are, but be much more strictly moderated in future (along with what I outlined on the thread concerned).
However, if the 'yes' vote should win, then I'll come back to you on the latter part of your question!
Quite apart from that, I do think that if any member who has come the conclusion that the direction a forum is going in is no longer their cup of tea (regardless of what they initially signed up to) they should have the option of leaving and having all data relating to their membership removed - particularly in the light of the recent re-focusing on data protection and the rights of the individual in relation to their cyber presence.
The forum software providers have built in that option - it is up to forum owners/administrators to switch it on or off.
I've no problem with that and would comply with the wishes of any member in that respect, in line with what the forum software allows.
I'd probably need to look into the matter in more detail than I've done before, because all I'm aware of at present is a 'Delete Member' button, which simply removes their profile details, along with any stored avatars, subsequently reducing them to the status of 'Guest', but unfortunately still leaving all of their posts visible.
I'd hope that there is a more elegant solution available than that in our current VBulletin software, which completely erases all trace of, as you say, someone's "cyber presence". I will definitely look into that though, for reference purposes, if nothing else.
Marco.
cyclopse
29-07-2018, 19:40
Yes I have two of these Entreq foo boxes in my system.
Indeed - I am currently using a Class II compliant integrated amp .... and I am certainly not going to risk the continued use of it (or the safety of myself and my family) trying out some some screwball device thought up by an American company as a means to extract money from the pockets of gullible or superstitious punters. By the same token I would not DIY any device unless I could be reasonably sure that it's operation would not incur such risks.
If you are using a class II compliant device, it is double insulated (and will be marked as such by having a 'square within a square' symbol on the back panel) and will use a two core mains lead. Adding a 'grounding lead', one which connects the signal ground to mains earth will not affect or compromise the safety of your amplifier.
It may or may not affect the sound quality.
Yes I have two of these Entreq foo boxes in my system.
And what are your findings? Where are they used and what changes/improvements do you notice?
cyclopse
29-07-2018, 20:30
I have a Silver Tellus with eight grounding lines connected to it. These are grounding all the source components. Digital components particularly benefit because of the high frequency noise they generate.
For the Vitus integrated a Poseidon is grounding the negative speaker output terminals and the middle chamber is grounding one of the rca amplifier inputs.
They are draining noise out of the components. It’s noise you do not notice until it is removed. You hear detail that you have not noticed before. The bass goes an octave lower and the sound stage is wider and deeper. Most of Entreqs business is from further orders from existing clients.
This is a quote from someone recently listening to the system:-
‘The detail, everything really, that came out of the speakers was breathtaking.
Such a big sound from such little speakers.
I couldn't stop thinking about what I had heard for days afterwards, and I'm still thinking about it now.’
Are any of the grounding lines connected to either mains earth, or Mother Earth? Or does the box and its contents provide the noise sink?
Often a good idea to earth class 2 cases when they are used with class 1 Especially if there are flat panels and tv boxes with hdmi cables and smps around.
Again it's just what I do as you can end up with issues on occasion
cyclopse
29-07-2018, 20:48
Are any of the grounding lines connected to either mains earth, or Mother Earth? Or does the box and its contents provide the noise sink?
Russ Andrews does it that way with daisy chains to the amplifier and one last earth line to a wall plug connected to earth. The Entreq mineral mix is providing the noise dump, no connection to mains earth or earth spikes.
'Daisy chains' sounds like series connected earths which results in a build up of dropped EMFs. Star earthing to the main point is better.
Hi Mike,
Sorry for the delay. Sunday lunches here aren't just lunches, but family social occasions, and so when you're eating, talking and enjoying a few glasses of wine together, time just flies! Anyway....
Excellent, so are you volunteering to help? I can offer you a position on the team if you like!
I'm joking, but also serious, because it's all too easy sitting and criticising from the sidelines (anyone can do that), but it's a rather different story actually dedicating the time and effort required to carry out what seems like a simple task, particularly on a busy forum such as this, where popular threads can quickly run into multiple pages before you know it, and especially if your life doesn't just revolve around AoS!
That's the reason why I locked the thread, to go and have lunch, because if I hadn't, it'd have probably run away with itself by now. Therefore, for once, it would be nice if folks saw things from OUR point of view, and in terms of *minimising* our workload, not increasing it;)
Fair enough, but blinkered absolutism is often what I see, and more often than not from those from a pro-science position, although some subjectivists too, are also guilty. It manifests itself as the perpetrator resolutely insisting that there is only 'one true path' for analysing or explaining any aspect of audio, either measurement/science-based or 'ears' based, when in reality BOTH are important, and so any sensible person usually occupies the middle ground.
I have a big problem with absolutism for that reason, as invariably the truths in life, and in audio, occupy the middle of two extremes, in this case between staunchly objectivist and subjectivist thinking, in relation to hi-fi.
However, as this is unashamedly a staunchly subjectivist forum, the subjectivist mindset will always be given priority, within reason (based largely upon whether or not their argument is conducted civilly), and so objectivists who we consider [ultimately it will be down to my judgement] are guilty of absolutist (black and white) thinking, along the lines of 'anything that can't be proven via measurement/adhering to known parameters, text books or blind testing, is imaginary bullshit', will always be given short shrift!
And some of the comments made here earlier appeared to display that type of thinking. Now if that offends your sensibilities, or anyone else's here, then I'm sorry, but that's just how it is, and how it will always be on AoS.
Firstly, as I've already said on the politics vote thread, if in the final analysis, there is very little between the 'yes' and 'no' vote, then I will give priority to the 'no' vote, so seeing how close things stand as of now, unless at the end there is a big swing towards a 'yes' vote, it's very likely there will be no ban on discussing political topics, and things will stay as they are, but be much more strictly moderated in future (along with what I outlined on the thread concerned).
However, if the 'yes' vote should win, then I'll come back to you on the latter part of your question!
I've no problem with that and would comply with the wishes of any member in that respect, in line with what the forum software allows.
I'd probably need to look into the matter in more detail than I've done before, because all I'm aware of at present is a 'Delete Member' button, which simply removes their profile details, along with any stored avatars, subsequently reducing them to the status of 'Guest', but unfortunately still leaving all of their posts visible.
I'd hope that there is a more elegant solution available than that in our current VBulletin software, which completely erases all trace of, as you say, someone's "cyber presence". I will definitely look into that though, for reference purposes, if nothing else.
Marco.
Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed response Marco - very clear.
Much appreciated :)
Russ Andrews does it that way with daisy chains to the amplifier and one last earth line to a wall plug connected to earth. The Entreq mineral mix is providing the noise dump, no connection to mains earth or earth spikes.
That may be the concept but it isn’t the reality as many components actually bond signal earth to mains earth within themselves.
Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed response Marco - very clear.
Much appreciated :)
No problem, Mike. You're welcome. You raised some good points, and are a valued member of the forum, so I thought you deserved a proper reply:cool:
Marco.
sq225917
30-07-2018, 06:55
I'd like to come to your house and measure your speakers going an octave lower with your entreq in place and see what if any currents you have running across your various earths.
I love the idea of inaudible noise, how can anything inaudible be noisy, aren't they diametric opposites?
The bass goes an octave lower .......
Presumably you mean that it ‘sounds as if the bass goes an octave lower’, using a bit of poetic licences. Even heavy application of DSP would struggle to actually make a small pair of speakers go a whole octave lower (at more than very low volume levels).
cyclopse
30-07-2018, 09:18
A quote from Alan Sircom HiFi+ review from February 2018 Gutwire perfect grounding cable:-
‘Perfect does the background noise floor lowering and soundstage widening you might expect from grounding blocks.’
I think these two posts highlights one of the key problems with threads about 'contentious' products like the Gutwire.
Both posters I respect based on advice I have gathered in the past but clearly one of them must be wrong in this particular case:
Personally I would rather err on the side of caution than risk betting on the wrong one :eek:
(emphasis added)
-------------------------
Stratmangler #64
The thing to bear in mind is that there's nothing mystical going on with the product brought to light in the OP.
The majority of audio equipment complies with class 2 electrical regs, and doesn't have a protective ground on it.
Using one of the leads in question directly connects the signal ground to mains ground, which may or may not have audible effects. You could knock up a lead for less than £5.00 that may not look as pretty, but it'll do the same job.
There is one thing that isn't considered, and that's induced RFI on the ground connection.
Oh, and under fault conditions your equipment becomes toast
-------------
Barry #88
If you are using a class II compliant device, it is double insulated (and will be marked as such by having a 'square within a square' symbol on the back panel) and will use a two core mains lead. Adding a 'grounding lead', one which connects the signal ground to mains earth will not affect or compromise the safety of your amplifier.
It may or may not affect the sound quality.
-------------
Beobloke
30-07-2018, 10:19
If you are using a class II compliant device, it is double insulated (and will be marked as such by having a 'square within a square' symbol on the back panel) and will use a two core mains lead. Adding a 'grounding lead', one which connects the signal ground to mains earth will not affect or compromise the safety of your amplifier.
It may or may not affect the sound quality.
If you connect a Class II appliance to mains earth, then it is no longer a Class II appliance and is required to pass a different set of safety tests to guarantee its CE compliance.
This marvellous lead therefore strikes me as not only a pointless exercise (IMHO of course) but a slightly dodgy one.
Patrick Dixon
30-07-2018, 11:19
I'm with Barry - should we have a poll ;-)
We must avoid 'absolutism' here. (As a mere mug punter, with the science/engineering knowledge of a particularly dim goldfish, I've no idea whether such devices are safe or unsafe when used with Class II appliances, whatever they may be).
We must avoid 'absolutism' here. (As a mere mug punter, with the science/engineering knowledge of a particularly dim goldfish, I've no idea whether such devices are safe or unsafe when used with Class II appliances, whatever they may be).
It's all been explained already. Stop dozing off at the back of the class and pay attention!
It's all been explained already. Stop dozing off at the back of the class and pay attention!
Ha! I remember in Economics A level classes, possibly the single most boring experience of my life, the teacher, Ted Rudd, used to think he could catch me out by barking a random question at me when he thought I'd dozed off. To his annoyance, I always knew what he'd been saying, even if, to all appearances, I was fast asleep. (Cunningly, I wore tinted glasses, so nobody could tell whether my eyes were open or closed).
Scott Adams, who does the 'Dilbert' cartoons, once described the only two things he could remember about economics, having done a Master's degree in the subject:
a) Something about supply and demand, and
b) It's not actually possible to die of boredom, though you might wish it was.
We must avoid 'absolutism' here. (As a mere mug punter, with the science/engineering knowledge of a particularly dim goldfish, I've no idea whether such devices are safe or unsafe when used with Class II appliances, whatever they may be).
I'm still struggling with the concept that a 'Class II' appliance is not the same thing as a 'Class 2' appliance - let alone what's safe or unsafe when used with either :scratch:
Scott Adams, who does the 'Dilbert' cartoons, once described the only two things he could remember about economics, having done a Master's degree in the subject:
a) Something about supply and demand, and
b) It's not actually possible to die of boredom, though you might wish it was.
LOL. can't be any worse than Latin; the only I things I learned were that nouns decline, verbs conjugate and that if you are bored enough 40 minutes can drag on so long it can seem like an entire lifetime.
If you connect a Class II appliance to mains earth, then it is no longer a Class II appliance and is required to pass a different set of safety tests to guarantee its CE compliance.
This marvellous lead therefore strikes me as not only a pointless exercise (IMHO of course) but a slightly dodgy one.
That would imply you should never connect a Class II appliance to a Class I appliance, as the latter having its signal ground connected to mains earth will then earth the signal ground of the Class II device.
walpurgis
30-07-2018, 14:30
Hmm. It gets more complicated as it goes along.
Beobloke
30-07-2018, 14:44
^^ what he said! ^^
Class I appliances have their chassis connected to earth, but that doesn't necessarily mean their audio signal 0V is connected to earth.
True, it doesn't necessarily mean the audio signal 0V is connected to ground, but neither does it necessarily imply it is floating with respect to the mains earth. It might be connected to mains earth via a resistor having a low value, say 10 Ohm, as is effected by a "ground lift" option.
Hmm. It gets more complicated as it goes along.
It gets even more confusing if you try to read around the subject ...
I found the list below which appears to identify characteristic features of Class I and Class II devices, this was from the website of a firm offering electrical safety checks for businesses.
On another site (https://pat-testing-fss.blogspot.com/2011/12/class-i-and-class-ii-appliances.html), they use actual examples to show that the list is, at best, missleading.
-----------
Class 1 Appliances
With Class 1 appliances, the user is protected by a combination of basic insulation and the provision of an earth connection, thus providing two levels of protection. When PAT Testing Class 1 appliances, Earth Continuity and Insulation Resistance tests are carried out. So in summary:
- If it is made of metal it must be a Class 1 appliance
- If it has a three core cable it must be a Class 1 appliance
- If the plug has a metal Earth pin it must be a Class 1 appliance
Class 2 Appliances
In Class 2 appliances, the user is protected by at least two layers of insulation. For this reason, Class 2 appliances are also known as Double Insulated. They do not require an earth connection. When PAT Testing Class 2 appliances, just the Insulation Resistance test is carried out. So in summary:
- If the case is plastic it must be a Class 2 appliance
- If there is a double box symbol on the rating plate it must be a Class 2 appliance
---------
I was going to cite that site (no pun intended). The Wikipedia entry on the subject is pretty definative, but doesn't discuss testing protocols or methods.
Beobloke
30-07-2018, 16:53
“If the plug has a metal earth pin it must be a Class I appliance”
Seriously?. What a load of tosh! Every Class II item I own has a metal earth pin in the plug - it’s just not connected to anything!
“If the plug has a metal earth pin it must be a Class I appliance”
Seriously?. What a load of tosh! Every Class II item I own has a metal earth pin in the plug - it’s just not connected to anything!
Indeed! because if the plug socket is shuttered, it won't open without the plug having an earth pin. (I have seen plastic earth pins, though, but in a plug sealed to the cable.)
“If the plug has a metal earth pin it must be a Class I appliance”
Seriously?. What a load of tosh! Every Class II item I own has a metal earth pin in the plug - it’s just not connected to anything!
Yep - that's the point.
Everything on the list is missleading bar the last one mentioning the double box symbol.
The other site I linked to has more examples showing how inaccurate the list is.
Very confusing considering the list is provided by a firm offering electrical testing services :eek:
Edited to add a link to the other site, scroll down for the examples:
https://pat-testing-fss.blogspot.com/2011/12/class-i-and-class-ii-appliances.html
I was going to cite that site (no pun intended). The Wikipedia entry on the subject is pretty definative, but doesn't discuss testing protocols or methods.
Definative?;)
Apologies, but I know you appreciate such pedantry!
Marco.
Consequence of rapid typing, and my PC is not set up for automatic spell checking. :(
What browser are you using? Chrome, for example, has an automatic spell checker:)
Marco.
What browser are you using? Chrome, for example, has an automatic spell checker:)
Marco.
Firefox. I can't install Chrome on my machine (it's too old), and I have abandoned Internet Explorer as, since a revision, it won't link to sites that are not https .
walpurgis
30-07-2018, 21:27
There's spell check in Firefox. Yours may be turned off. This may help: https://www.technipages.com/firefox-enabledisable-spell-checker
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