Tempting Martin Logans

[alphaGT]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180717/227f154107936367a9364ffddd219c06.jpg

I’ve loved these Sequels since about 1989, when I first heard them in a stereo shop. The price is not bad, and they’d probably take $750 or $800. The shipping of $299 isn’t great, but expected. I’d really rather have the oak side panels, and would match my decor better.

I’m tempted! Any thoughts? Experiences? Advice?

I’ve seen these come and go, some a little less but not by much. They were easy to find about two or three years back, but are getting harder to find. And there other models I’d like just as much or more, such as the Quest’s. Their newer models are sky high in price! And I doubt much better, and certainly not as good looking. I’m scared if I like them I’ll have to deal with selling these speakers I’ve got!

These Legacy Focus’s I’ve got are great! And sound completely amazing. But, I fear are too big for my space. I’ve pondered a smaller pair for years now. Plus, I’ve also got a project to build a set of DYI speakers of my own design in the works. Can you have too many speakers? Maybe not. And these Martin Logan’s are not a do or die purchase, they come around every so often, along with other equally desirable models. I’m conflicted. I really want them! But am not sure I need them, or if this is the time? And I’ve got the cash at the moment, but probably need a preamp more than speakers. Sounds like I’m trying to talk myself out of it doesn’t it?

Russell

[Mike Reed]

I'd be inclined to wait until a U.K. pair comes up. There are quite a few M.L.s that do come up in the forums or Ebay, and I'm not sure why these particular old ones are so revered. I heard some smallish ones a decade or more ago in a local flat and was very impressed. I'd also be tempted by the Summit Xes but only to see what they give over my all-ESL Quad 2905s. B.t.w., there are no apostrophes in plurals; ever ! (it's called the 'greengrocers' apostrophe' (apple's, banana's, etc.))

With M.L.s, you do need adequately powerful amplification; even more that Quad ESLs. I agree with you about speakers, and am a fairly recent convert to ESLs.

[TheMooN]

I would agree, also are these voltage selectable for 230V or perm set for US mains ?

[hifi_dave]

Russell is in the US.

[Mike Reed]

Russell is in the US.

Silly me; should have looked, but made the wrong assumption because of the £220 + (equivalent) carriage costs.

[hifinutt]

some great info on the logan forum , which is mainly us based

a lovely pair of vantage just came up here in uk which are quite rare these days

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?4854-Goodbye-Sequel-II&highlight=sequals

[Barry]

I nearly bought a pair of ML SL-3s 'on spec' back in 2000. A friend of mine worked for the UK MoD, and for a while was based in Rheindahlen, Germany. He could have bought a pair from the American BX for a very reasonable price. But I thought it was too much of an imposition to ask him to expedite matters, especially in conveying them back to the UK.

[jandl100]

Personally, I've never got on with the hybrid MLs. They just don't seem to quite integrate convincingly.
- - I'm talking of older models like the Sequel, I've not heard any of the current models.
Others love them, of course. And you are clearly one of those!
If you're asking for advice -- Yeah, go for it! :thumbsup:

Personally I like their full range stats - I've had 2 pairs of CLS2z. :)
- sure, they have their faults, too. But they are nothing if not seamless across the audio band.
Shame about the constrained dynamics and lack of deep bass .... :scratch: :D

[Barry]

Personally, I've never got on with the hybrid MLs. They just don't seem to quite integrate convincingly.
- - I'm talking of older models like the Sequel, I've not heard any of the current models.
Others love them, of course. And you are clearly one of those!
If you're asking for advice -- Yeah, go for it! :thumbsup:

Personally I like their full range stats - I've had 2 pairs of CLS2z. :)
- sure, they have their faults, too. But they are nothing if not seamless across the audio band.
Shame about the constrained dynamics and lack of deep bass .... :scratch: :D

Something all electrostatics suffer from I'm afraid, but something I tolerate for their other qualities.

[Mike Reed]

Personally I like their full range stats - I've had 2 pairs of CLS2z. :)

Shame about the constrained dynamics and lack of deep bass .... :scratch: :D

I'm surprised if these are the big expensive ones, roughly equivalent to my Quad 2905s. They're neither constrained dynamically nor lacking in bass (for an ESL)

[jandl100]

They're neither constrained dynamically nor lacking in bass (for an ESL)

I think that was my point! - you have to reset expectations when it comes to full range ESLs, they have a different balance of virtues and vices.

Mind you the ML CLS2z were fairly extreme even for full range ESLs. Bass tailed off from quite high up.
- the CLS2z were made for a couple of decades and were only dropped when the new full ranger came along at a much higher price.

[alphaGT]

Yes I’m in the US, although these are in California, and I’m in Virginia, so it would be a long ride for them. But the voltage would be fine.

I don’t think this Model has it, but many Martin Logan models have an L pad on the rear to help integrate the bass. I’m sure it would be very room and amp dependent. My big Krell amp would be more than enough to handle any speaker, in fact I worry that some may be too small and would be destroyed by a careless turn of the volume. Although these are rated at 200 watts plus, so it shouldn’t be a problem. Other Martin Logan models have higher power ratings, like the CLS.

I’d love to hear a pair of CLS, I have seen them too at reasonable prices, but not as often, although a lot more than these speakers.

And of course there are many competing brands that I haven’t heard. ESL, Magnapan, and others.

But I will say that when I heard these Sequals so many years ago, they were driven by a huge pair of Krell monoblocks, a Kline preamp, and the Sony ES CD player I was shopping to buy, (and did). I brought a stack of my own CD’s and sat in the salon for hours! Until the salesman had to run me off at closing time. I was totally amazed at the three dimensional sound stage. The musicians were clearly standing in free space, detached from the speakers completely. I could hear that the singer was in front of the drums, the bass 5 feet to the left, with my eyes open. Still one of the best stereo performances I’ve ever heard. Not that I’ve heard that many.

After having slept on it, I may wait until after I get my DYI speakers built. They may satisfy? Or at least hold me over while I sell these Legacy speakers and then shop for the electrostatics of my dreams? I just saw a pair of Legacy Focus sell for $2500! Exactly like mine. That’s a profit!

Russell

[jandl100]

Yes, the CLS can absorb 400W iirc. And they need a lot of power (min 150W and good at driving low impedance I would say) to make them sound dynamically plausible in a lot of music.

-- and Magnepans aren't stats, btw, they are ribbons or for the cheaper ones quasi-ribbons. A very different kettle of fish sonically and physically.

[Pharos]

I had CLSz IIs for a while, very low impedance dip to 0.5 ohms, NAP 260 kept cutting out, but ATC SIA150 managed them OK. Lovely on female voices, but for me too big visually in front of my windows. (Japanese screens).

[alphaGT]

Yes, the CLS can absorb 400W iirc. And they need a lot of power (min 150W and good at driving low impedance I would say) to make them sound dynamically plausible in a lot of music.

-- and Magnepans aren't stats, btw, they are ribbons or for the cheaper ones quasi-ribbons. A very different kettle of fish sonically and physically.

Well you’ve learned me something! I had read they had ribbon tweeters, but was not aware they were all ribbon. I’d definitely have to hear them before even considering a purchase.

Russ

[alphaGT]

I had CLSz IIs for a while, very low impedance dip to 0.5 ohms, NAP 260 kept cutting out, but ATC SIA150 managed them OK. Lovely on female voices, but for me too big visually in front of my windows. (Japanese screens).

That is a serious load! But I doubt the size would bother me, no bigger than these Legacys I’ve got now. And being thin, may take up less space?

Russ

[jandl100]

Yup, Maggies are ribbon-type all the way.
Mind you, ribbon speakers can vary a lot in presentation - huge differences between Maggies and Apogees, for example, quite a different sound signature especially at lowere frequencies. And they need BIG driving as much or more than CLS.

The CLS are big panels. 58 inches high x 28 wide. I wasn't bothered in my man cave, but I can sympathise with those who don't want to be screened in this manner.
Here's one of my pairs. Driving here with a big MF 370ii power amp, and attempting (and tbh failing) to integrate a large powered subwoofer.
The Belles Hotrod something or other amp (also in the photo) was a complete failure - well, it was a crap amp tbh.
The panels need a minimum of 3 feet behind them, more preferably.

https://i.imgur.com/k0QOrq2.jpg

And a little while after that photo was taken I found they sound even better on short stands which made them look even bigger! :doh: :)

https://i.imgur.com/wXP39ja.jpg

[alphaGT]

Yup, Maggies are ribbon-type all the way.
Mind you, ribbon speakers can vary a lot in presentation - huge differences between Maggies and Apogees, for example, quite a different sound signature especially at lowere frequencies. And they need BIG driving as much or more than CLS.

The CLS are big panels. 58 inches high x 28 wide. I wasn't bothered in my man cave, but I can sympathise with those who don't want to be screened in this manner.
Here's one of my pairs. Driving here with a big MF 370ii power amp, and attempting (and tbh failing) to integrate a large powered subwoofer.
The Belles Hotrod something or other amp (also in the photo) was a complete failure - well, it was a crap amp tbh.
The panels need a minimum of 3 feet behind them, more preferably.

https://i.imgur.com/k0QOrq2.jpg

And a little while after that photo was taken I found they sound even better on short stands which made them look even bigger! :doh: :)

https://i.imgur.com/wXP39ja.jpg

That is nice! I’d love to hear them. Your space doesn’t look a lot different from mine, my room is 16 x 18 feet, with 8 foot ceiling. I heard a pair of the first CLS at the store, but just in passing. I wasn’t setting down evaluating them.

Integrating a subwoofer can be a task. Although I’ve heard it done. That may be the hardest part of parting with my Legacys, they have 3) 12” woofers per cabinet, and claim a bass cutoff of 18Hz. I’m sure I’ve nothing to approach that on record. But some Uriah Heep synth that will shake the house! I wonder if I could get some thin electrostatics and keep them both?

Russ

[jandl100]

I wonder if I could get some thin electrostatics and keep them both?

Russ

:thumbsup:

[Pharos]

Your Legacies going down to 18 Hz does tend to infer that they will have 30Hz upwards guaranteed to be real and flat, my own go down to 22Hz, and I feel comforted, not by them reproducing anything as low as say, 25Hz, but by them probably being right above 30Hz.

I think there is little energy below 30Hz on most recordings.

[alphaGT]

Your Legacies going down to 18 Hz does tend to infer that they will have 30Hz upwards guaranteed to be real and flat, my own go down to 22Hz, and I feel comforted, not by them reproducing anything as low as say, 25Hz, but by them probably being right above 30Hz.

I think there is little energy below 30Hz on most recordings.

I recall a magazine article many, many years ago where the author examined a bunch of recordings that he believed to have bass content. Classical music, rock and synth music. All kinds, and only two or three of them had any content below 30hz. And none had any below 25hz. Most were way up in the 40’s! So, reaching below 20hz could be considered overkill. Most of us aren’t setting around listening to test tones. But you make a great point! If it’ll do 20hz, then it should be good and flat at 30hz!

One of my biggest issues with my Legacys, is too much bass. I had the opposite problem before I got the Krell. I had a Crown PA amp with 450 class D Watts on the bass, and a Forte’ Model 3 on the tops, I’m not sure if they do 150 or 200 Watts? Of A/B power. It sounded good! But, somehow was lacking, it was, uninteresting. Uninvolving, lackluster. So the Krell fixed that! It’s compelling! And it flat out rocks! Vinyl really draws me in. CD’s are so bright and spotless! Even FM is interesting. But, it booms. A frequency is resonant, and it booms, and I’m not sure what to do about it. One of the reasons I’m thinking perhaps these are just too big for my space? But, they shouldn’t be, a 16 x 18 is not that small. I’ve got a few more things to do before I pass final judgement. Such as, new interconnect cables from preamp to amp, I’m using plain old microphone cable now. And a new preamp could do wonders? Or not. That’s kind of a crap toss right there, depending on the preamp. But my Parasound Halo 3 is a nice pre, but not in the same class as the rest of my gear. Cost about $800 new, I got it for $300. I love all its features! Lots of inputs, digital control, remote, it’s punching way above its weight class. But can it compete with a $5000 pre? I seriously doubt it. I am hesitant to get rid of it, because high priced preamps generally do not have tone controls.

So, replacing the speakers could be a quick fix? Or, it could just give me a whole new set of problems? If things aren’t right, I doubt speakers will solve the problem. Not that anything is wrong! It does many things right! But it seems my speakers ability to deliver lots of bass is being fully exploited. Ive considered somehow wiring up an L pad behind the speaker terminals? I’m not sure what effect that will have on their overall sound? But it could be an inexpensive project to find out.

While these speakers rock! Have great definition and a smooth top end, saying I do tame the bass, they still do not have that detached sound of electrostatics, that sound stage that floats in the air between the speakers. So, like I was saying, it would be cool to have both pairs. I don’t have a wife around to tell me not to!

Russell

[walpurgis]

I recall a magazine article many, many years ago where the author examined a bunch of recordings that he believed to have bass content. Classical music, rock and synth music. All kinds, and only two or three of them had any content below 30hz. And none had any below 25hz. Most were way up in the 40’s! So, reaching below 20hz could be considered overkill.

Russell

Definitely agree with that. There are few recordings with extremely deep bass on. Not that it concerns me these days, I just enjoy the music and as long as the bass seems well presented, I don't give it much thought.

Having said that, I know my Tannoys will comfortably reproduce notes down to 30 Hz or maybe a bit below. However, my next speakers (a project) will probably start progressively rolling off below about 45Hz, but it won't bother me.

[alphaGT]

Definitely agree with that. There are few recordings with extremely deep bass on. Not that it concerns me these days, I just enjoy the music and as long as the bass seems well presented, I don't give it much thought.

Having said that, I know my Tannoys will comfortably reproduce notes down to 30 Hz or maybe a bit below. However, my next speakers (a project) will probably start progressively rolling off below about 45Hz, but it won't bother me.

Same here, my present DYI speaker project I hope to reach 40hz. From a single 8”, woofer.
I’ve had speakers in the past that didn’t go that low, and I never really felt cheated.

Russ

[Primalsea]

If you can have the MLs around 6 feet away from any walls they tend to sound great. One thing to watch for is that the panels on older MLs often loose conductvity on the coatings which reduces volume and can make them sound a bit lifeless. ML do sell replacements for most of their speakers, so you should check if they do for the model you are looking at and factor in the cost as a possible addition.

[alphaGT]

If you can have the MLs around 6 feet away from any walls they tend to sound great. One thing to watch for is that the panels on older MLs often loose conductvity on the coatings which reduces volume and can make them sound a bit lifeless. ML do sell replacements for most of their speakers, so you should check if they do for the model you are looking at and factor in the cost as a possible addition.

Good advice on the replacement panels. I know they do, and have seen used ML’s for sale that claim to have new panel elements. But, you are right that one should not assume they sell replacement panels for their older models. They could be discontinued?

6 feet from the side walls would be no problem, but from the back wall about 4 feet may be my maximum. Which may be less than optimal, but that’s probably part of the problem with my Legacy speakers? They are only 3 feet from the back wall. I can pull them out for serious listening sessions, but they have to be pushed back to not be in the walk way. So, I fail to move them most of the time. At 200lbs each, it’s not that simple.

Russ

[Pharos]

If your Legacies are ported Russell, you can consider trying partial blockage of the ports. This is done professionally when the design is decided, either with straws crammed into the port, they producing airflow frictional losses, or using a sponge cylinder.

Easy to experiment non destructively using socks.

[alphaGT]

If your Legacies are ported Russell, you can consider trying partial blockage of the ports. This is done professionally when the design is decided, either with straws crammed into the port, they producing airflow frictional losses, or using a sponge cylinder.

Easy to experiment non destructively using socks.

Brilliant idea, I’ve heard of shoving socks in ports, but I can’t say why it hasn’t occurred to me. If nothing else it could move the resonant frequency.

Russ

[User211]

Panels are dodgy things. Sooner or later they will fail. You should always factor in the cost of ownership of panels, as running costs can be higher over a number of years than conventional speakers.

Maggies, Apogees, Martin Logans, Quads etc etc = sooner or later they will all f^ck up.

Here's the best available data for ML panel life that I am aware of (http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?10997-How-Long-Have-Your-ML-Panels-Actually-Lasted&highlight=how+long+have+your+ml+panels+actually+la sted).

Be aware that Paradigm bought ML a number of years ago now. That shook the company up a bit, and it also greatly increased the price of replacement panels. Indeed, replacements will cost you much more than the second hand price of many models these days.

So, in the words of Clint Eastwood, do you feel lucky, punk?

I went through a number of sets of replacement panels in 17 years for two different ML models.

Classic early signs of panel failure are loss of HF, loss of output in one speaker relative to another, panel resonances that become audible etc etc.

I actually had to go through three sets of replacement panels for one pair of panels when it was time to change, because the first two sets of replacement panels were duff, with only the third being acceptable. Supplied by Oxford Audio Consultants, but it wasn't their fault (I believe).

These days I would want to take a laptop and a test mic with me if I was going to buy a used pair.

I am sorry to be so negative. I put up with all the inconvenience because I loved the things. I did so for 17 years.

Nowadays the only ones I think are any good (I basically think planar magnetic speakers are better when done well) are the CLX and the Neolith. But look at the cost of the Neolith!

The best 2nd hand buy I would say on price/performance would be the ML Ascent.

[User211]

BTW if you took the trouble to look at the panel poll, I personally do not believe the people who have voted 19+ years.

If they had a panel replacement, I believe they would be in for a shock.

Also be aware there may be some dishonesty and tactical voting going on.

So, take the results of the poll with a bit of a pinch of salt, but it is obvious people have trouble with them. Panel issue fault type posts have appeared on the forum a lot over the years.

[alphaGT]

All good food for thought. If I should consider some electrostatics, I’ll be sure to avoid anything with too much age on it. I saw a nice pair of CLX today, considerably higher priced than the ones at the top of this thread, like $5k.

Russ

[Frazeur1]

Russell, keep your Legacy's, they are very good speakers. Save your money and if you get the itch, improve things upstream, like as you mentioned, the preamp. Otherwise, who cares, sit back and enjoy!

[alphaGT]

Russell, keep your Legacy's, they are very good speakers. Save your money and if you get the itch, improve things upstream, like as you mentioned, the preamp. Otherwise, who cares, sit back and enjoy!

Very good advice.

Russ