View Full Version : Considering Croft RIAA RS phono stage. Any alternatives?
Hello,
I am considering a new phono stage in the range of 1.5-2K£.
My current cartridge is a Music Maker III (Moving Iron) mounted on an Audiomods Series 5 tonearm on a Roksan Xerxes (original) turntable. I may as well try LOMC cartridges in the future.
At the top of my list is a Croft RIAA RS valve phono stage, but I would consider any other alternatives before I take the plunge.
Any ideas/suggestions, either valve or SS? I am trying to keep my mind as open as possible.
Thanks in advance.
Panos
No really sure if there are any alternatives?:scratch::)
WESTLOWER
11-07-2018, 08:24
Hello,
I am considering a new phono stage in the range of 1.5-2K£.
My current cartridge is a Music Maker III (Moving Iron) mounted on an Audiomods Series 5 tonearm or a Roksan Xerxes (original) turntable. I may as well try LOMC cartridges in the future.
At the top of my list is a Croft RIAA RS valve phono stage, but I would consider any other alternatives before I take the plunge.
Any ideas/suggestions, either valve or SS? I am trying to keep my mind as open as possible.
Thanks in advance.
Panos
Nice Cartridge that Panos, I have one too. Very balanced. Do you use the Isolator with it?
I have a custom built phono stage in my AD Audio Satchmo Pre amp and external Hashimoto SUT.
I did consider, before I purchased the Satchmo, second hand examples of the Aurorasound VIDA phono stage and
the Allnic H1201 Phono Amp. Both within your budget if you seek a nice used example.
If you want a fantastic performer at well under your budget, seek a World Designs (formerly WAD) Phono2 or 3
I had that up against various high end Phono stages and it really holds it's own. Can be got with the separate PSU for under £500 used. Some people shy away from the WAD for pride of ownership badge, but if you want bang for buck, there it is.
Good luck
Firebottle
11-07-2018, 08:29
There is my Firebottle Vivant stage, switchable between MM and MC.
Point to point wired, built to order, £1200.
No head amp or SUT required.
The cartridge you currently use will be the bottleneck, not the phono stage - in my opinion... A good MC, even a high output one like the Hana models, should be a great match to whatever you buy and should tell you far more about what's really there in your vinyl.
I love Glenn's products and as you go up the range, the money goes into important things like power supplies rather than fancy boutique components which barely tell half the story *on their own.*
Not sure how much the Longdog Audio stages are, but Nick seems to be a decent chap and has a great handle on good technical design allied with properly good sound quality by all accounts, so I'd recommend you take a look there before shelling out any money..
Loads of others out there, but don't just spend the money on a flash looking box with a load of hype around it. I've seen pics of a few phono stages costing a £ grand or more which have very little inside - and smaller components are pennies these days, even 'nicer' ones, when bought in bulk...
Idlewithnodrive
11-07-2018, 11:08
Remton 383 MkII or LCR.
Both very good at their respective price points.
There is my Firebottle Vivant stage, switchable between MM and MC.
Point to point wired, built to order, £1200.
No head amp or SUT required.
No separate power supply.
WESTLOWER
11-07-2018, 11:49
The cartridge you currently use will be the bottleneck, not the phono stage - in my opinion... A good MC, even a high output one like the Hana models, should be a great match to whatever you buy and should tell you far more about what's really there in your vinyl.
Have you actually had experience of the MusicMaster from The Cartridge man (Len Gregory)
I have and I assure you No bottle neck!
Firebottle
11-07-2018, 11:57
No separate power supply.
Not needed with this design due to exceptional power supply noise rejection, plus individual regulation per gain stage.
Hello,
I am considering a new phono stage in the range of 1.5-2K£.
My current cartridge is a Music Maker III (Moving Iron) mounted on an Audiomods Series 5 tonearm or a Roksan Xerxes (original) turntable. I may as well try LOMC cartridges in the future.
At the top of my list is a Croft RIAA RS valve phono stage, but I would consider any other alternatives before I take the plunge.
Any ideas/suggestions, either valve or SS? I am trying to keep my mind as open as possible.
Thanks in advance.
Panos
To be honest Panos, I think you would not be disappointed with the RIAA RS, every review of it I have read says its absolutely outstanding and as you are a Croft fan I am sure know it would be good. As you may have gathered from the bake off, even Glenns most basic phono stage did very well indeed, so his RIAA RS must be very special. I think I am heading that way but need to ask Glenn a few questions first.
Nothing wrong with your cartridge. I used a MM3 with a Croft RIAA R for a long time and it was a great match. The RIAA R is considerably better than the standard unit and the RS model is another step up. You won't be disappointed. Glenn's stuff is fantastic value for money and his customer service is second to none
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's often accepted as irrefutable fact that a power supply in a separate box is automatically superior to a power supply in the main box. Not necessarily true. In fact, they're often inferior due to the regulators being located in the separate box rather than than close to the audio circuit where they should be.
However, with a phonostage it does make some sense to have the mains transformer well away from the audio circuit - possibly in a separate box - to minimise hum pickup from the transformer's magnetic field.
So I am correct then. Thank you for confirming what i have suggested.
Firebottle
11-07-2018, 15:06
It must be remembered that the Croft stages are MM only, so relatively easy to make hum free in one box, particularly standard width.
The Vivant has a toroidal transformer in the box and is hum free at low MC levels. Much care with layout is needed but it can be done :)
It must be remembered that the Croft stages are MM only, so relatively easy to make hum free in one box, particularly standard width.
The Vivant has a toroidal transformer in the box and is hum free at low MC levels. Much care with layout is needed but it can be done :)
Mine buzzes a fair bit.:(
Bigman80
11-07-2018, 15:20
Mine buzzes a fair bit.:(Buzzes mechanically or hums through the speakers?
hifi_dave
11-07-2018, 15:45
Not exactly. A qualified confirmation, maybe.
I think Croft's phonostages have onboard mains transformers. Not sure how hum-free they are. It can be done with careful layout. Removing the mains transformer to a separate box is an easy way to minimise hum but it does add to the cost quite considerably.
The Croft RS phono stage is a 2 box design.
topoxforddoc
11-07-2018, 17:25
Others to consider
TRON Convergence GBP1000 MM or GBP1200 MC - built to order - you can specify the cartridge loading etc - super quiet circuit with low noise floor (inaudible on my 104 dB/W horns speakers) - great sound & stellar build quality
EAR 834P - long standing stalwart in the valve phone stage line-up - probably bettered now by others at the price - GBP1204 MM or GBP1347 MM or MC
Buzzes mechanically or hums through the speakers?
Bit of both but you can't hear anything when it's playing. The tiny bit of hum only comes through when you turn volume up full when nothing playing but then you hear a bit of tube rush as well.
Firebottle
11-07-2018, 17:44
Others to consider
TRON Convergence GBP1000 MM or GBP1200 MC - built to order - you can specify the cartridge loading etc - super quiet circuit with low noise floor (inaudible on my 104 dB/W horns speakers) - great sound & stellar build quality
EAR 834P - long standing stalwart in the valve phone stage line-up - probably bettered now by others at the price - GBP1204 MM or GBP1347 MM or MC
Both can be bettered with judicious modification, as I have done on both of them.
Bear in mind that a phonostage can hum not because of its own internal transformer but due to being too close to another piece of equipment containing a large transformer. Could that be the problem?
Nothing else near my phono stage but it is built into a valve regulated preamp which has two toroids in the power supply! These buzz and probably pass a bit of noise onto the valves. I need to get them out into another box!
[QUOTE=Firebottle;993751]Both can be bettered with judicious modification, as I have done on both of them.[/QUO
:lol::lol:
..Do you use the Isolator with it?
No, as a matter of fact, I do not use the isolator.
Have you actually had experience of the MusicMaster from The Cartridge man (Len Gregory)
I have and I assure you No bottle neck!
Although I am aware of the MusicMaster, I have not tried it in my system or auditioned it anywhere else. In terms of cost, it is not inexpensive and finds itself in the area of quite some reputable LOMC cartridges, e.g. Lyra Delos (+ SUT). So, how would the MusicMaster compare with such cartridges (e.g. the Delos)? No clue. Both require a leap of faith.
hifi_dave
12-07-2018, 09:11
The Music Maker appears to retail at £740 or so, whilst the Lyra Delos is £1195 + a step up if needed, so not really in the same price bracket.
The Music Maker appears to retail at £740 or so, whilst the Lyra Delos is £1195 + a step up if needed, so not really in the same price bracket.
Dave, I was actually referring to MusicMaster (not MusicMaker III) vs. Lyra Delos + SUT. Which one to choose? Or perhaps consider a high output MC instead?
As we all agree, cartridge matching with the phono stage is paramount. Synergy is key.
hifi_dave
12-07-2018, 09:34
OK. In that case I would go with a Delos + step up or an Audio Technica of your choice.
If the hum is at about the same level as hiss from the valves, it's not bad at all. Before going to the trouble of removing the mains transformers I would recommend verifying that the hum is definitely from the transformers. The first step - and it's easy - is to unplug the turntable from the phonostage and insert a pair of shorting plugs into the phonostage's inputs. If you still have hum, it's coming from the phonostage. If the hum disappears it was coming from the turntable. No point in removing the mains transformers from the phonostage if they're not the problem.
Would a mains filter or a battery power supply improve the sound of a valve phono stage, which happens to have its mains transformer in an external box?
Bigman80
13-07-2018, 11:59
The cleaner the mains, the better. Doesn't matter where the supply is IMO.
Would a mains filter or a battery power supply improve the sound of a valve phono stage, which happens to have its mains transformer in an external box?
The hum and tube rush are about the same level and not an issue. But I expect moving the transformer out into a separate box (Croft 25RS) would definitely be beneficial giving the valves a quieter environment to operate in.
Are there any SUTs that from experience go well with Croft valve phono stages, and what would their cost be (either new or s/h)?
Thanks.
Bigman80
15-07-2018, 07:05
Are there any SUTs that from experience go well with Croft valve phono stages, and what would their cost be (either new or s/h)?
Thanks.Heard an Audio Innovations SUT at the Bakeoff, I think it would be perfect. Not sure on price or availability.
hifi_dave
15-07-2018, 09:07
Rothwell Audio make some excellent step-ups at very reasonable prices.
I sold a Croft RIAA RS yesterday after the customer borrowed and tried several other phono stages from other retailers. He will be using it with his MM cartridge for the time being and add a step-up at a later date.
Rothwell Audio make some excellent step-ups at very reasonable prices.
I sold a Croft RIAA RS yesterday after the customer borrowed and tried several other phono stages from other retailers. He will be using it with his MM cartridge for the time being and add a step-up at a later date.
Thanks for the heads-up, Dave. If one is planning to use an MC cartridge, the dilemma is whether an MC phono stage would be preferable to an MM phono stage + SUT. Thoughts, please?
By the way, can the Croft RIAA RS be possibly further improved with some tweaks? Or is it the end of the road?
hifi_dave
15-07-2018, 09:35
Whether you use a 'good' transformer or a head-amp is down to personal choice, as always with Hi-Fi. Poor examples of each are common and will render the performance of the RIAA RS, useless. Rothwell make excellent transformers and head-amps at reasonable prices and you can pay a lot more and get less. If you want a better transformer, the prices are likely to escalate.
The RIAA RS already uses decent parts but I'm sure Glenn can add some extra tweaky bits at extra cost. Whether they improve the preformance or not is debatable. You can swap valves easily and without breaking the bank.
walpurgis
15-07-2018, 09:41
Whether you use a 'good' transformer or a head-amp is down to personal choice, as always with Hi-Fi. Poor examples of each are common
Bang on! If you get the front end wrong, you might as well bung the whole system in a skip.
...
The RIAA RS already uses decent parts but I'm sure Glenn can add some extra tweaky bits at extra cost. Whether they improve the preformance or not is debatable. You can swap valves easily and without breaking the bank.
Indeed, from personal experience, replacing the stock JJ ECC83 valves with NOS valves (e.g. Tesla E83CC or Mullard ECC83, both different in character) can significantly improve the overall sound quality. And ECC83 valves are not that expensive, compared to other valve types...
I'm a little late to this thread. Did you get one pankon?
I have a Riaa RS (got it in April) and also use a MM3-cart w/Isolator on my NAS Spacedeck. I'm very happy with the RS. Great resolution, transients and a firm grip on things. I haven't done any tube-rolling yet...so can't comment on nuances and ways to improve the sound. But it seems that replacing the ecc99/12bh7a tube can do wonders if you find a good NOS.
Thanks for the great feedback, Lars. By the way, what's the rest of your system, i.e. amp(s) and speakers? Have you tried any MC cartridges with a SUT on the RIAA RS? No, I have not yet purchased a RIAA RS yet. Still getting used to my Micro25RS LS (line only), which is a definite improvement of the previous Micro 25R guise.
By the way, I have tried several 12BH7A in my Croft preamp and power amps and you can tune the sound the way you like it. 12BH7As are not so expensive either.
Wakefield Turntables
07-08-2018, 17:06
Are there any SUTs that from experience go well with Croft valve phono stages, and what would their cost be (either new or s/h)?
Thanks.
Croft SUT's go very well with Croft amps!
Croft SUT's go very well with Croft amps!
Croft SUTs??? That's a first IMHO! Never heard of such a thing before.
Thanks for the great feedback, Lars. By the way, what's the rest of your system, i.e. amp(s) and speakers? Have you tried any MC cartridges with a SUT on the RIAA RS? No, I have not yet purchased a RIAA RS yet. Still getting used to my Micro25RS LS (line only), which is a definite improvement of the previous Micro 25R guise.
By the way, I have tried several 12BH7A in my Croft preamp and power amps and you can tune the sound the way you like it. 12BH7As are not so expensive either.
I'm currently debating with myself wether I prefer my integrated Jadis Orc. Ref. amp or an odd Croft Polestar III/maybe IV (bought it from another AoS member). The Polestar I'm testing with a totally rebuilt Meganaut pre-amp that just came from Croft. So we are talking the mid-00's half size boxes. I play through Shahinian Compass speakers.
I don't like MCs so not a problem for me running the RS only ;-)
What's your favorite 12BH7a in your system?
Sherwood
07-08-2018, 19:00
Croft SUTs??? That's a first IMHO! Never heard of such a thing before.
For years I used an Audio Technica AT630 SUT with a Croft valve phono preamp. Worked extremely well. I have my AT630 on sale here at present
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?59457-FS-Audio-Technica-AT630-Step-up-Transformer-for-Moving-Coil-Cartridges
Geoff
Lars,
I am quite fond of various 12BH7As, that I have, e.g. RCA and TungSol. I also like a Westinghouse. Sylvania so and so. I have to look at the lot again to remember which I like most -))
Does anyone know why GC used a ECC99 in the Riaa RS vs the 12bh7 tube? Maybe he used both?
Does anyone know why GC used a ECC99 in the Riaa RS vs the 12bh7 tube? Maybe he used both?
The ECC99 was used because they are available as a tube that is currently manufactured by JJ Tesla unlike most 12BH7a which I believe are all NOS?
The ECC99 was used because they are available as a tube that is currently manufactured by JJ Tesla unlike most 12BH7a which I believe are all NOS?
That's a fine point, James. As far as I know JJ also makes a 12bh7. Maybe the differences are so subtle that GC just used what he got.
fiddlemaker
12-04-2023, 10:08
That's a fine point, James. As far as I know JJ also makes a 12bh7. Maybe the differences are so subtle that GC just used what he got.
I've never tried a JJ 12BH7 in any of my Croft gear. But I've found that any NOS 12BH7 or BH7A sounds much better than an ECC99. Despite my almost religious devotion to Glenn's work, I could never understand his use of this rather inferior sounding valve in his products.
(absolutely no disrespect intended).
I've never tried a JJ 12BH7 in any of my Croft gear. But I've found that any NOS 12BH7 or BH7A sounds much better than an ECC99. Despite my almost religious devotion to Glenn's work, I could never understand his use of this rather inferior sounding valve in his products.
(absolutely no disrespect intended).
Glenn used JJ because they were available and could always be purchased where as NOS alternatives varied not only in availability but price!
Lawrence001
12-04-2023, 20:04
Yes I think he was prepared to take a small hit to performance (but he minimised this by design) so that his amps would not become obsolete due to a lack of replacement valves (or effectively so due to cost).
Glenn invariably advocated using NOS valves so you could get his gear to sound the way you wanted with your system. That was the beauty of valves, you can throw the tone/detail/flavour of what you like with the quick switch of a glass tube!
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