View Full Version : Maximising sound quality from USB
As a computer audio newbie, I am wondering how best to maximise the sound quality from my HP Proliant N36L (no sound outputs) to my Caiman SEG DAC.
Thanks to Stryder5 (Gary) I have a decent USB cable, which is connected directly to my DAC.
Would I be better off getting an internal sound card (needs to be low profile to fit the PC) or a USB device before the DAC?
Stratmangler
08-07-2018, 12:59
Install piCorePlayer onto a RasPi, point it at your NAS, and you're up and running.
Install a digital output HAT and hook up to your DAC.
Something like this: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/allo/allo-digione-player-network-audio-player-raspberry-digital-interface-digione-pre-installed-volumio-black-p-12714.html
Stratmangler
08-07-2018, 14:32
That's the kind of thing :)
I was thinking of this as an alternative - https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/appareils-hifi-interfaces-digitales/armature-hecate-xmos-xcore-208-usb-spdif-asynchronous-interface-p-11412.html
I use one of these, which may still be available somewhere? - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fanmusic-FM6011-Coxial-Converter-Digital/dp/B00IS4I5W0
Vanilla 75 ohm Van Damme coax from this to DAC and it's great for me - and I use the PC in the workroom for music source a lot these days when I can't use the main rig downstairs...
Bourneendboy
08-07-2018, 17:56
Kevin, you should have taken my Digione Player as well:)
Bourneendboy
08-07-2018, 18:02
It has gone by the way, but the Pi/Digione is a superb source into the Caiman.
Stratmangler
08-07-2018, 22:37
I was thinking of this as an alternative - https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/appareils-hifi-interfaces-digitales/armature-hecate-xmos-xcore-208-usb-spdif-asynchronous-interface-p-11412.html
Why?
Do you have a shitload of DSD files?
USB is only a default interface if you have DSD, because they do not transfer over S/PDIF.
Everything else is quite happily transferred over S/PDIF.
USB is not a great audio interface.
The possibility of ground plane noise and interference transfer is immense, and the device you've linked to is powered over USB, which is a poor starting point.
Why?
Do you have a shitload of DSD files?
USB is only a default interface if you have DSD, because they do not transfer over S/PDIF.
Everything else is quite happily transferred over S/PDIF.
USB is not a great audio interface.
The possibility of ground plane noise and interference transfer is immense, and the device you've linked to is powered over USB, which is a poor starting point.
Been around the doors a couple of times and have to agree with Chris, USB would probably not be my first choice.
You really need to "fix" it before it sounds good as a digital connection, very sensitive to hash on the 5V mains line and prone to timing errors.
Most effective quick fix I remember was converting it to SPDIF at source, best sounding way to do this was using a Musical Fidelity V-Link 192 converter.
By the way You don't need USB to listen to DSD (sorry Chris :)) as it can be done over PCM based connections like SPDIF, AES if the dac or software uses the DoP protocol to package DSD inside PCM.
http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard#.W0Lvybgo8uU
So the best budget option currently available is probably the Allo DigiOne player?
I don’t see an easy way out getting SPDIF out of the server, as it only takes half height cards, so an Asus Essence sound card will not fit.
You could use Allo USBridge which I finds sounds slighly better than a Pi. USBridge is USB only. https://www.allo.com/sparky/usbridge.html
jandl100
09-07-2018, 07:30
A Halide Bridge USB-coax converter does it for me. A real step up from straight to a USB input on a DAC imo.
I've one available with a bit of a tricksy/dodgy connection I'd be happy to loan to you (yes, I know you're in France but it won't cost much to send, it's not much more than a fat cable.).
If it works for you I'm sure we can agree a suitably knocked down price!
See full details here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?56078-FS-Halide-Bridge-USB-to-BNC-read-in-full!&highlight=halide+bridge
Jerry,
That would be great. I will PM you with my address.
It will be interesting to see if it works.
Thanks.
As a computer audio newbie, I am wondering how best to maximise the sound quality from my HP Proliant N36L (no sound outputs) to my Caiman SEG DAC.
Thanks to Stryder5 (Gary) I have a decent USB cable, which is connected directly to my DAC.
Would I be better off getting an internal sound card (needs to be low profile to fit the PC) or a USB device before the DAC?So far I have used HP ProLiant Microservers 3 times for audio work and mostly used USB. One of the servers now being used by Adam of this parish. He ain't complaining (so far). [emoji41]
Couple of times I've used a dac without USB so used a Vlink 192 to make the connection.
All sounded just great.
Clearly the quality of the Dac will have the greatest impact on Sq. A well shielded USB cable able will also help things.
So long as your Caiman has asynchronous USB input I'm sure you will be very pleased with the Sq. Ask Stanley which USB yours has.
What software are you using on the Microserver? There may well be useful things to do on the computer to optimise things (mainly to ensure there are minimal other background processes happening).
Via Tapatalk
And another useful thing to do on the Micro is to replace the fans with noise blocker fans. Almost silent operation.
Via Tapatalk
I am currently running WHS 2011 (2008 R2), Logitech media server and soft squeeze.
Playback is controlled by iPeng.
I have been looking at a quieter fan, and at the moment I am not disappointed with the sound quality, but if for a small outlay I can dramatically improve it, then I figured it would be a shame not to do so.
I am currently running WHS 2011 (2008 R2), Logitech media server and soft squeeze.
Playback is controlled by iPeng.
I have been looking at a quieter fan, and at the moment I am not disappointed with the sound quality, but if for a small outlay I can dramatically improve it, then I figured it would be a shame not to do so.
The replacements fans I got were Noiseblocker Black Silent Pro (http://www.blacknoise.com/site/en/home.php). I got the 140mm for the main fan and the 40mm (for the PSU).
WHS2011. Hmm, that is getting rather long in the tooth now. I'd look at changing the operating system for more responsiveness etc.
How much RAM do you have on board? Suggest minimum 3gb or 4gb. Also an SSD to hold the operating system will make the system fly (comparatively speaking) and quieter. Dirt cheap these days. All you need is a 120gb drive.
Just some ideas for improvement - what you already have may well be perfectly acceptable to kick off with.
I know WHS2011 is long in the tooth, but everything seems to work. What would you suggest I replace it with?
8Gb of ram fitted.
I thought about an SSD as I can probably free one up from my other PC.
I shall look into the fans. Thanks.
I went from WHS to win7 and then win10 - each time a noticeable improvement. But I guess anything that can take LMS and soft squeeze. (I've never gone down the LMS route so I'm blank on that front).
You have plenty of ram (and I think that is the max the micro can take anyway).
I placed the SSD drive on the CD SATA bay so did not have to free up a regular SATA bay. (I did a BIOS edit so the CD SATA port operated at full speed but still much faster than a regular drive without the edit).
Just plug the Caiman SEG in with a good quality cable and play.
I doubt you can get a good quality half height coax or toslink card and anyway fitting half height cards into the Micro is somewhat a pain. One thing I thought of trying but never got round to is use HDMI for sound (but you would need to have an external HDMI audio extractor as well as an HDMI half height card). I think I have spare fanless HDMI half height card going spare if you are interested. Maybe your Micro already has an HDMI card?
The Asus Xonar DGX fits - apparently.
Sherwood
09-07-2018, 20:34
As a computer audio newbie, I am wondering how best to maximise the sound quality from my HP Proliant N36L (no sound outputs) to my Caiman SEG DAC.
Thanks to Stryder5 (Gary) I have a decent USB cable, which is connected directly to my DAC.
Would I be better off getting an internal sound card (needs to be low profile to fit the PC) or a USB device before the DAC?
I use an RPi/Allo Digione into a Caiman SEG. The sound quality is exceptional and I doubt if it could be bettered in terms of VFM. I use Volumio for local streaming and web radio. However, I have just splashed out £2.99 for the licensed version of Bubble PnP. This allows me to stream directly to the Rpi from my Tidal Hifi account.
If you prefer to stay with your pc then don't rule out Soundblaster sound cards. I have one of their external units and rate it highly. It links to the PC via usb but outputs include optical. https://uk.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-digital-music-premium-hd#buy
Geoff
The Asus Xonar DGX fits - apparently.
But why get something like that when you already have the Caiman which is streets ahead. Just connect via asynchronous USB. Or are you trying to achieve multi-channel audio?
I used HDMI as the Microservers were also great for simple Home Theatre duties.
That is the point of this thread. Do I just stick with the USB into the SEG, or do something different.
At the moment, my money is on stick with USB unless I find something way better.
The USB sounds damn fine to me.
Sherwood
09-07-2018, 20:54
The Asus Xonar DGX fits - apparently.
If you were going for an Asus card, the DSX is a much better card for not much more than the DGX. Same low profile design too.
Geoff
Thanks for the advice. I don’t think that a sound card is the way I am going to go though.
That is the point of this thread. Do I just stick with the USB into the SEG, or do something different.
At the moment, my money is on stick with USB unless I find something way better.
The USB sounds damn fine to me.
Yes indeed and I agree stick with USB. USB tech has improved vastly from the early days when sound quality was generally dire. All the other stuff I mentioned are tweaks to take/make things further/smoother.
Another tweak is to separate out the rendering of music from where you store your file based audio. I have a fanless pc to render audio to my DAC and the music files are on another machine in a different part of the house (ethernet makes the bridge).
Yes indeed and I agree stick with USB. USB tech has improved vastly from the early days when sound quality was generally dire. All the other stuff I mentioned are tweaks to take/make things further/smoother.
I use USB from my Mac in preference to the SPDIF output ... it just sounds better.
USB to SPDIF is the way to go IMHO, even if the DAC has a USB input. The reason is that modern USB front ends have so much lower jitter and clock drift than CD transports, staple SPDIF receiver chips like the CS8416 respond very well to this, and are way less noisy inside the DAC than a USB input.
To get an in-DAC USB front end right is much more difficult, and introduces new EMI and noise issues. It is possible, look at some specialist units out there, mainstream ones are usually not good enough. They need to be absolutely isolated from the DAC unit, which means dedicated transformer windings, dedicated power supply (the USB +5V should not be used), and use of a signal transformer / optocouplers for galvanic isolation, not to mention excellent grounding and decoupling at RF frequencies.
Also, with USB, you do need to ensure that you are outputting bit perfect files. This generally means using WASAPI or ASIO, NOT using software volume in the OS, and ensuring that renderers and servers are not resampling files. Configuration is key!
I have replaced the Microserver with a PC running Windows 10.
I need to check the USB output against the Halide Design SPDIF bridge that Jerry has lent me.
The next step is an Asus Essence sound card to see if that improves things even more. If it does not, it is going back and I will try a more modern SPDIF converter.
Looking forward to hearing about the various combinations you will be trying out ... :popcorn:
Do also consider locking down your Windows 10 machine to reduce background stuff (e.g. Services and Start Up in System Config tool, Privacy Repairer etc).
I have replaced the Microserver with a PC running Windows 10.
I need to check the USB output against the Halide Design SPDIF bridge that Jerry has lent me.
The next step is an Asus Essence sound card to see if that improves things even more. If it does not, it is going back and I will try a more modern SPDIF converter.
Make sure you are using WASAPI with the Halide Bridge. :)
WASAPI or ASIO?
I am struggling to find out how to do that with Logitech Media Server and soft squeeze
If you click on the speaker at bottom right and go into players. It should have options
Stratmangler
07-08-2018, 19:41
WASAPI or ASIO?
I am struggling to find out how to do that with Logitech Media Server and soft squeeze
It's got me wondering too :scratch:
If it were me I'd scratch the LMS installation, install Foobar, and hook up the Halide Bridge with the appropriate ASIO or WASAPI driver.
Then I'd install the remote access app in Foobar, and control things that way.
I am a longtime Squeezebox user, and I'm a great fan of LMS, but in this circumstance it's not appropriate.
Foobar needs a fair bit of addons put in but it's not especially difficult to do. It's pretty sparse looking tho.
Jriver isn't especially expensive and is very good out of the tin and can be played with
I have an Asus Xonar Essence sound card arriving tomorrow.
I will have a play with that before I go Foobar, unless it goes fubar tomorrow.
It will be interesting to see how the Asus compares to the Caiman SEG, and if there is anything gained using the SPDIF directly into the SEG. If nothing is gained, it goes back....
Then I will try a Singxer F1,and if I can a Digione player before making a decision.
The key thing for me is being able to drive the PC using a smartphone or tablet, as well as good sound quality.
If this works well, I am going to try and build a fanless PC to minimise noise etc.
Jriver works well with an iPad if you have one comes with server too. I can play from pc to various other points in house like iPad or other pc or my pi all from the iPad. Don't know how good the android ap is now but the iOS is stable and fast
guyhayton
07-08-2018, 22:38
Jriver works well with an iPad if you have one comes with server too. I can play from pc to various other points in house like iPad or other pc or my pi all from the iPad. Don't know how good the android ap is now but the iOS is stable and fast
Another recommendation for Jriver from me.... I wish I had dived in years ago, it's a great application
I have just installed my Asus Xonar Essence STX II sound card. Using the analogue out direct to my pre-amp I am struggling to tell a big difference between this and my external DAC set up. :scratch:
Further listening is required, but the DAC on the sound card seems very good. There is a big price difference between the two set-ups for just the "HiFi" part.
The PC I am using is one I had lying around and is an old Intel Core Duo E8400, on an Asus P5K motherboard fitted with 4GB of RAM. It still has a couple of fans that I am thinking of getting rid of if I can.
The external DAC is a CAIMAN SEG with MCRU linear Power Supply and the Halide Design SPDIF bridge.
There is a small difference between the two, but I can change the op amps on the sound card to tweak the sound for the better.
It is really making me think about getting rid of the external DAC set up.
That sound card is no slouch, and it won’t even have burned in yet. A better PSU in your PC may also help, but some opamp rolling will make an audible difference, and not always for the better.
However, you really need to be using ASIO or WASAPI, as mentioned, to get the most out of your Halide Bridge. What operating system are you using?
Jriver works well with an iPad if you have one comes with server too. I can play from pc to various other points in house like iPad or other pc or my pi all from the iPad. Don't know how good the android ap is now but the iOS is stable and fast
Rock solid and fast - both within the local LAN and externally via port forwarding.
That sound card is no slouch, and it won’t even have burned in yet. A better PSU in your PC may also help, but some opamp rolling will make an audible difference, and not always for the better.
However, you really need to be using ASIO or WASAPI, as mentioned, to get the most out of your Halide Bridge. What operating system are you using?
Windows 10 64 bit, with ASIO installed and running with the card.
There really is very little between the two to my ears.
DO you guys really think that the DSD are better or it simply the music you want to listen to is on this format curious?
I think it is more convenient.
In what way Cagey, not a loaded question really interested in why people feel dsd is a light they need to have on their dac?
Not sure if you are aware that to mix DSD it has to be re-sampled to PCM to achieve then re-sampled to 2.8s or 5.6Mhz
In the way that ASIO was installed automatically when I fitted the sound card.
Cagey
I was only mentioning the process that DSD has to go through to be mixed in the studio that was all.
DSD is different rather than better than PCM, same for MQA which is a solution to a problem that does not exist imho
My card gives me the choice of playing PCM as well.
That sound card is no slouch, and it won’t even have burned in yet. A better PSU in your PC may also help, but some opamp rolling will make an audible difference, and not always for the better.
However, you really need to be using ASIO or WASAPI, as mentioned, to get the most out of your Halide Bridge. What operating system are you using?
I have started to look at better PSUs, and potentially a new MOBO to allow me to fit Burson OpAmps.
I have started to look at better PSUs, and potentially a new MOBO to allow me to fit Burson OpAmps.
Super Flower Leadex Gold 750 is a stunner. However, I strongly suspect looking into this more, that it won’t make a big difference to your card. It appears to reject the incoming PSU noise, evidenced by its extremely good 124db SNR.
I would personally try the opamp rolling first, but not discrete ones, as they are just opamps with longer signal paths, lower component matching, flavour, and higher price. I would try some TI / Burr Brown OPA2228P.
I was thinking of noise in the rest of the system.
Super Flower Leadex Gold 750 is a stunner. However, I strongly suspect looking into this more, that it won’t make a big difference to your card. It appears to reject the incoming PSU noise, evidenced by its extremely good 124db SNR.
I would personally try the opamp rolling first, but not discrete ones, as they are just opamps with longer signal paths, lower component matching, flavour, and higher price. I would try some TI / Burr Brown OPA2228P.
I have ordered the opamps you have recommend.
I have also been looking at a PSU - the EVGA Supernova 750 G3 looks good as well, and is available locally. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story6&reid=500
If I am correct, it is made by Super Flower, so is pretty much the same as the PSU you have recommended.
I have ordered the opamps you have recommend.
I have also been looking at a PSU - the EVGA Supernova 750 G3 looks good as well, and is available locally. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story6&reid=500
If I am correct, it is made by Super Flower, so is pretty much the same as the PSU you have recommended.
Not only does it look like a Super Flower to me, the review does mention that they are indeed the OEM. They are the best VFM / high performance PSUs out there. I use one in a system that draws less than 30W, so the fan never spins up.
I have come to the decision that I cannot hear a noticeable difference between the external DAC and internal DAC in my PC.
As I am not back from holiday, I am going to give the Halide Bridge a good listen against the Asus soundcard and see if there is a difference.
I am also going to try the DAC on my CD player to see if it improves things. If not the Caiman II and Modified Caiman SEG and linear PSU will be up for sale very soon.
A minor update.
An extended listen shows that the external DAC with Halide Bridge is slightly better. This setup gives better realism to strings and percussion more than the internal DAC. It is making me wonder if I should sell the SEG, or investigate other DACs to see if I can find one I love better.
After a few disappointing eBay purchases where the wrong items have turned up, I finally have a set of Burr Brown OPA2228Ps on the way. Feedback will be posted once they arrive.
Rather than mess around with opamps, I have gone for what are reported to be the best opamps for the card - The Burson Audio V6 Vivid.
A set are on route to me now, and I will post my thoughts when they arrive and I have installed them.
Three shiny new Burson V6 Vivid dual op amps have arrived.
I will install these at the weekend to see what is what. They are supposed to be pretty good.
I may post up details of how they fit to the sound card if it is of any interest to anybody here?
ianlenco
08-10-2018, 19:00
Looking forward to your impressions. When I fitted the Burson V5's to my Eastern Electric Minimax dac there was an immediate and obvious improvement.
Well, I lied.
I found a spare 15 minutes, whipped the sound card out and installed the Burson Audio V6 Vivid dual op amps.
I fired up the PC, and initial impressions are promising. The audio is better defined, sounding immediately cleaner.
I will get some hours on these, and post my thoughts up, quite possibly in a different thread, as this has now gone way beyond USB.
These Vivids make me wonder how the classic sound.
I am very happy with the immediate improvement, and will now have to repeat the sound card / DAC comparison as the results could be very different now.
ianlenco
08-10-2018, 19:35
Can you put the Bursons in the DAC to make it a fair comparison?
I am not sure I can, but I was going to use the optical and coaxial out of the sound card to feed the DAC.
If this sounds better, then I will be an even happier man.
The op amps are superb.
I am seriously thinking about replacing the op amp in my PD-S703 with a V6 vivid.
Bigman80
08-10-2018, 20:37
The op amps are superb.
I am seriously thinking about replacing the op amp in my PD-S703 with a V6 vivid.I had a couple of V5 Opamps for a while and they were excellent. Charles does some good stuff.
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
Phase 2 will begin soon.
I will be removing the “all in one” liquid cooling system, and will fit a passive CPU cooler.
I have also finally ordered my new PSU. This will work in hybrid mode, so the fan will only kick in when it gets a bit warm.
I will also be ordering a passively cooled graphics card, when I make my mind up about which one I want.
The system will be transferred to a better case - a Fractal Design Define R5 and case cooling fans will be minimised to reduce noise levels, both ambient and electrically.
Then it will be time to see if this makes any difference.....
I found that moving to a PC without any moving parts, only passive cooling, going headless, no graphic card, stopping all unnecessary services and only using the PC for audio rendering made a massive difference in audio quality. Well worth the effort. I hope you also find the same in your experiments.
So the PC has been transferred into it's new home. A passively cooled graphics card has been fitted.
I am thinking that I still need to keep some airflow going through the case, so I will fit 2 quiet case fans (Nanoxia 140mm Deep Silence 1100 rpm) as intake, and one for the exhaust.
I will connect these to the motherboard using a Phanteks fan hub, as I don't want PWM fans adding the 25kHz noise to the PC.
To also help, I am thinking of fitting an Elfidelity Fan Noise filter between the hib and the motherboard.
Do these things work?
I have ordered a Fan Noise filter. I will feedback once it is fitted.
So the PC has been transferred into it's new home. A passively cooled graphics card has been fitted.
I am thinking that I still need to keep some airflow going through the case, so I will fit 2 quiet case fans (Nanoxia 140mm Deep Silence 1100 rpm) as intake, and one for the exhaust.
I will connect these to the motherboard using a Phanteks fan hub, as I don't want PWM fans adding the 25kHz noise to the PC.
To also help, I am thinking of fitting an Elfidelity Fan Noise filter between the hib and the motherboard.
Do these things work?
You won’t need any fans... there will be natural convection due to temperature differentials in the case vs. ambient. Also, the audibility of the fans themselves will far outweigh any electronic noise. The only thing that might need a fan is your PSU, which will spin up anyway if required.
I will try and run the PC without any fans, and see what the temperatures do. It feels weird not having any fans in the PC.
I suppose I can always open a few of the moduvents in the R5 case to let the heat out.
However, the Nanoxia fans run at a stupidly low noise level. 14.4dB at 12v and 9.1dB at 7v.
The idea was to run them at 7v, and have better cooling.
I have swapped out my Zotac GT710 graphics card with an Asus GT1030 and the temperatures in the case have dropped, so we will see. If it runs fine without the fans, then I will keep them ready for the hot summer, in case I need them.
Kevin, have you considered going for a two box solution? One box to do all the heavy lifting (spinning discs, library maintenance etc with fans and a powerful CPU) and the other box dedicated to audio rendering only (quality mobo, no fans, no graphic cards, no spinning discs) connected via a quality Ethernet connection.
Kevin, have you considered going for a two box solution? One box to do all the heavy lifting (spinning discs, library maintenance etc with fans and a powerful CPU) and the other box dedicated to audio rendering only (quality mobo, no fans, no graphic cards, no spinning discs) connected via a quality Ethernet connection.Kind of doing that myself. Using a powerful laptop for all the heavy work and ethernet it to an rpi 3 to put it out as a digital stream. My next thing will be a better digi board.
I found that moving to a PC without any moving parts, only passive cooling, going headless, no graphic card, stopping all unnecessary services and only using the PC for audio rendering made a massive difference in audio quality. Well worth the effort. I hope you also find the same in your experiments.
+1
it’ll be worth it.
Look into software as well?
you’d be surprised the improvement this can make.
Am currently looking at the Allo Digione boxes with Moode preinstalled. Looks like I can remove a conversion stage and the measurements are superb. The USBridge also looks interesting if I were to use my USB to SPDIF converter.
https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-player.html
I am still trying to work out an optimum for streaming Edward, what was your solution?
I don't want a TV on for it, I want a HD which only comes to life when I want to download a track into my library, and I want max quality and max simplicity also.
Kevin, have you considered going for a two box solution? One box to do all the heavy lifting (spinning discs, library maintenance etc with fans and a powerful CPU) and the other box dedicated to audio rendering only (quality mobo, no fans, no graphic cards, no spinning discs) connected via a quality Ethernet connection.
I have considered this, but the idea of the project was a low cost solution, reusing what I could.
It has grown a bit from that now though.
One of the best ways would be to use a microrendu?
It is not a path I want to go down as I have started to stream video to my TV as well using the PC.
I am still trying to work out an optimum for streaming Edward, what was your solution?
I don't want a TV on for it, I want a HD which only comes to life when I want to download a track into my library, and I want max quality and max simplicity also.
In simple terms Dennis I have a xeon pc loaded up with memory, discs and whatnot performing varied duties such as a server (family documents etc), Plex server, VMs etc and for the purposes of our discussion Roon Core and JRiver Server. This is relatively silent but in a room where noise etc is not an issue anyway. Then in the room where the audio stuff is located I have a fanless, disc-less (except for a SDD) , headless PC which outputs to a DAC. This machine only has to perform one duty - namely as a digital transport for audio using as its source audio files on the other machine but now mostly streamed from tinternet (Tidal) via the xeon machine.
I know I may have done this wrong/differently, but it sounds fantastic for the money spent.
Is this the best DAC? I doubt it....
Could I do better? Probably....
I now have my PWM to DC fan hub, and my fan noise filter. The fans are in transit.
The next steps are:
1. Open the top vents of the Fractal Design R5 case to let the hot air out.
2. Reduce the fan count, one by one to see if I can get to a fanless PC with a sensible CPU temp, on what is a hot running processor - The Q9550 (95W TDP with a CPU cooler capable of about 70W without a fan).
3. If 2 does not work, add the new quiet fans back in to the case one by one.
4. If 2 works, fit a dust filter on the top of the open case, and remove the bottom and front filters.
5. Find someone to buy my upgraded SEG. I am not going to be using it.
Progress report.
All fans have been disconnected and the top vents have been opened. I think I will remove the lower and front dust filters from the case, as they are now redundant.
I will run this for a while and monitor the temperatures. If it stays within a reasonable limit, then I will stay fanless.
More gains are to be had going for SSDs? If so, that will be next on the list of upgrades.
I may also have to reorient my fanless CPU cooler to allow for better convection now that I have no airflow?
Two hours in of constant playback, and the CPU has a maximum temperature of 49 degrees C.
Maximum allowable is 71.4, but there is still quite a margin left. Fanless may well work with this obsolete CPU.
Does your PSU have a passive heatsink?
What is the reported TJ Max for your CPU? Is the 71.4c you mention the distance to the TJ max? If so then the sum of 49c and 71.4c is your TJ max which is when your CPU will start throttling. At about 130c it will close itself down.
Try running Prime95 for a while and watch your Distance to TJmax. Your core temps will jump and correspondingly your Distance to TJmax will reduce. If your DistanceTJmax is still reasonable (say >25c) then you are good to stay totally passive (as your usual software will never use your CPUs like Prime95).
Apologies if you know all this, if so just ignore. :)
The PSU has a fan, but it will only come on when it is needed.
The 71.4 is the CPU T case value.
I have just ordered a 500Gb Samsung SSD to replace one of the spinning disks.
I am just contemplating what size I need for the music library. I am tempted by a 2Tb SSD, but which one?
My 1Tb SSD will be here tomorrow.
The price of a 2Tb SSD put me off slightly.
By the weekend, there will not be a moving part in the PC, so it should be silent.
Two hours in of constant playback, and the CPU has a maximum temperature of 49 degrees C.
Maximum allowable is 71.4, but there is still quite a margin left. Fanless may well work with this obsolete CPU.
Running nice and cool. :)
Cool enough to be fanless.
I will check the temperatures again when it starts to get warmer here.
Just fitting my SSDs now, and I should have a silent PC, good enough for music playback.
So the SSDs are in, and I now have a max CPU temp of 56 degrees C. That seems to be getting a tad warm, so the joys of a silent PC may be short lived.
I have a fanless i5 with 1TB SSD. Temp cruises at 30c to 35C. The case has no vents but is build as a heatsink. 56C isn't that hot though.
It has peaked at 66 degrees C. Not far from the max temp spec for the CPU.
I have opened the rear top vent of the case and it is back down to 46 degrees C.
I guess it will be staying like that now.
It has peaked at 66 degrees C. Not far from the max temp spec for the CPU.
I have opened the rear top vent of the case and it is back down to 46 degrees C.
I guess it will be staying like that now.
I use a highly perforated case in my PC for this reason. :D
And yeah SSDs do run warmer. 46 degrees is great. I’d be happy with 56 really.
You’ll notice the difference bigtime during night time listening now that you have a truly silent rig. :)
I am happy with 46 degrees.
There are another three vents I can remove, and a couple of air filters for better airflow on the case if needed.
As the PC is silent, it makes no difference to the acoustic isnsulation.
Having it silent has made a big difference late at night, even with virtually silent fans running, you could hear still them.
Yes even if the fans are silent you can still hear the airflow...
I recently built a gaming PC for a friend. Now that is a monster. The fans are set up in a way that an airstream is produced between the CPU and GPU, the stream is chilled to the touch. In fairness it is very quiet for a 6 fan system, but still, not good for those late night music listening moments.
My gaming/photo and video editing PC is watercooled to keep the noise down when it is at maximum load.
It has two 280mm radiators and eight 140mm fans. It is relatively quiet, but as you say not quiet enough for late night music sessions.
I should really get the thread title changed, as I have stopped using USB, although I must try it into my Caiman SEG sometime, to see if it is worth me keeping it.
However, I am now very happy with the sound quality coming from my PC.
I can’t see many ways of making it better except for maybe the software side now, so thank to everybody who has given me advice along the way. It has been much appreciated.
You are welcome, and glad you are appreciating what a silent rig brings to the party. :)
25270
Opening the vent means dust can enter the case much easier, so I have come up with a compromise, which is pictured above.
Basically I have fitted some M4x15mm bolts through the mesh in the top of the case, and sat the vent cover on top of them. It allows the hot air out, and will minimise the dust getting in the case.
For some reason, the photo is upside down, but there you go....
Roughly three years on and my EVGA Supernova 550W G2 failed in a smelly way.
It melted three SATA power connectors, taking out two optical drives in the process. It also left melted plastic on the SSD my music library is kept on.
The PSU has been sent back to EVGA (7 year warranty) and I am waiting to see what they will do about it.
It is the first PSU failure I have had in my numerous years of using PCs. Luckily the SSD was salvageable.
So, I have upgraded the PSU in my main rig to a Corsair HX1000 and put the HX750i in the HTPC. It is probably twice the size of what it needs to be, but I no longer trust the EVGA Supernova G2. Yes, it is away at the moment, but if they send me a new one, it won't be going in my PC.
Supernova, the clue's in the name.
At least you got your music safe, but no back up?
There are two copies of the drive. ;)
Cant go wrong with Corsair PSUs.
used them for all my PC builds, including the machine I'm typing from.
Did you have any clues on the buildup to it failing?
Spontaneous reboots, coil whine or mystery BIOS resets?
Spontaneous reboots. I was trying to see what the issue was, when the magic smoke escaped from the SATA power connectors.
It absolutely stank. I thought it could have been the de-lidded i7-6700k playing up, so I changed the thermal paste. The magic smoke escaped shortly after.
The EVGA was highly rated by "Johhny Guru" in in-depth PSU reviews.
Ideally I should have gone for a "Seasonic Fanless Titanium Prime" for the HTPC, for a full silent build. The Corsair still has a fan, and I could probably get away with a 350W to 400W PSU.
But for my water cooled rig, I figured 750W was a bit near the limit, hence the HX1000. The HX750i will do nicely in the HTPC. They carry a 10 year warranty, so they should be good enough.
The new EVGA Supernova G3 has arrived with a new set of cables, to add to the SATA cables they sent me the day before, and the CPU cable that is incoming.
It seems that the guys that handle the RMAs do not know what gets sent out.
Now I need to find a use for a 550W ATX PSU...
I think it will do nicely as a paperweight for now, until the time comes for a new build several years down the line.
Over the holidays, I have been wondering if it is worth adding an "Audiophile" USB card to my PC.
The current config is:
i7-6700k built into a fanless enclosure.
16 Gb Corsair Vengeance RAM
Corsair HX750i (platinum) PSU
Asus Maximus Hero VIII (Z170) mobo
Asus (passively cooled) GT1030 GPU
Elfidelity AXF-100 Pro III USB card
Samsung 2.5" Evo SSDs.
I was looking at the JCAT Femto USB and the Matrix Element H USB cards, and these are around €350 to €450.
I am not sure if they will give a substantial improvement over the Elfidelity card, based on the "quality" of my PC components and the PSU.
The money may be better spent elsewhere in my system, but where?
There's three things you can pretty much always improve on:
Turntable and their associated bits
Loudspeakers
Room acoustics
No idea about USB cards, sorry, it's not a rabbit hole I have ever been down or even researched. I just stick in a CD and press play.
Back in the day Kevin I ran a SOTM usb card in my music servers,
sounded better than Motherboard USB out straight out the packet.
It REALLY showed what it was cabable of when I sorted out clean power throughout the PC itself,
the biggest hitter being seperating the 3 power rails and powering them independantly from linear PSUs.
The USB card had its own linear as well, so was running 4 to one PC box!
All else being equal, thats where I'd be looking to improve your PCs sound.
USBs not the best transmission method for digital, something to consider?
To get it to work properly you need to do some work on it, I found fitting a SPDIF output connected from SPDIF motherboard header with silver in teflon cable was better than any of the USB tweaks i tried.
Sound was excellent once I got the power sorted though, kinda why (I guess) Im such a stickler for it in my hifi setup, old habits die hard.
Thanks Gaz.
I was looking at power, but it seems very expensive to sort out properly, as there seem to be fewer options.
FOr the price of what is available, I think I could get an Innuos Zenith. :eek:
Back in the day Kevin I ran a SOTM usb card in my music servers,
sounded better than Motherboard USB out straight out the packet.
It REALLY showed what it was cabable of when I sorted out clean power throughout the PC itself,
the biggest hitter being seperating the 3 power rails and powering them independantly from linear PSUs.
The USB card had its own linear as well, so was running 4 to one PC box!
All else being equal, thats where I'd be looking to improve your PCs sound.
USBs not the best transmission method for digital, something to consider?
To get it to work properly you need to do some work on it, I found fitting a SPDIF output connected from SPDIF motherboard header with silver in teflon cable was better than any of the USB tweaks i tried.
Sound was excellent once I got the power sorted though, kinda why (I guess) Im such a stickler for it in my hifi setup, old habits die hard.
I was going to say concentrate on PSU and mains noise and there are huge gains to be made there in Digital systems, maybe more so than connections , galvanic isolation or USB tweaks although I have heard the Schitt audio USB input implementation does have a big benefit.
I heard one of these in my system the other day and it was simply amazing but also has an amazing price!:eek:
https://chord.co.uk/product/poweraray-professional/
Thanks Gaz.
I was looking at power, but it seems very expensive to sort out properly, as there seem to be fewer options.
FOr the price of what is available, I think I could get an Innuos Zenith. :eek:
Not necessarily mate, in my experience?
Got great results powering my own Server from 4 Maplins CB Radio linear supplies, tweaked down to 12V.
Came in about £50 each?
Hook em up with a halfway decent power cable into the wall and some good DC cable, say the Mogami 12GA stuff I posted about on my gallery thread and your Jammin.
The CPC linear bench supply I recently posted about would be even better than the Maplin supplies, and only £40 each.
Just splice the DC cable from the linear psu to your individual power rail motherboard to connectors and your good to go.
This would go a long way to getting more from your PC setup.
After a brief investigation, my motherboard does not have a spare SPDIF header.
So I plugged in my Asus Essence STX II to use the SPDIF pass through.
No noticeable difference in sound quality between the SPDIF and USB.
Probably time to draw a line under improving the quality from the PC and look at a dedicated streamer sometime in the future.
one of these will improve the usb line sound...not cheap but cheaper than they were.
iFi Audio iPurifier 2 - USB Purifier
I used this when I was using a main system with a pc into dachttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230905/c5604667d9a7b40812e24669a7e95d46.jpg
Change of motherboard (with SPDIF header - direct feed from the MB makes a difference) and sperated linear power rails, you'd get a nice bump for not a big outlay.
You CAN go down the PC audio rabbit hole, trick is to know where to step off!
Loads of forum posts and articles out there, but its a time drain.
Nowadays at my end, even Airplay 2 from the IPAD into the AppleTv sounds great and "more than good enough"...
After a brief investigation, my motherboard does not have a spare SPDIF header.
So I plugged in my Asus Essence STX II to use the SPDIF pass through.
No noticeable difference in sound quality between the SPDIF and USB.
Probably time to draw a line under improving the quality from the PC and look at a dedicated streamer sometime in the future.
Doing a bit of digging, I have come across the Advance Paris WTX Stream Tubes, which looks tempting.
Are there any other streamers that have a tube output stage?
Would a digital transport like a Digione/RPI be worth looking at?
Or is it likely to be different, rather than better?
i had one of those... still have it i think too. was very good at time i used it. i went off the rpi usage tho when programs started costing...
Same for me, it has to be free to use.
So listening to FLAC files stored on my music server, it sounds pretty good.
Streaming the audio direct from Amazon HD sounds less good. Is this just the problem with internet streaming?
It sounds richer/fuller from the local files. I use Amazon as it gives me a cheaper family subscription, and this is not something I really want to change.
Sherwood
16-09-2023, 10:46
Have you looked at something like the HRT MusicStreamerII?
https://www.whathifi.com/hrt/music-streamer-ii/review
Ultimate in simplicity. Asynchronous USB input at one end. RCA phono outputs at the other. Works with whatever you are playing on your pc.
I have one in the cupboard somewhere. Very relaxed sound.
Thanks for the link.
I have only looked at R2R DACs recently as I think I have come to the conclusion that the source (streaming) is the issue, and as my digital side is pretty transparent (RME ADI-2 DAC FS, Topping Pre90 and Nuerochrome Modulus 686) that if the source is not great, than the output is not great. CD sounds better to me than streaming at the same bit rate or a (apparently) higher bit rate.
I don’t think a different streamer will change that. I am also limited by the inputs on the Pre90. Both are taken, so to change the sound the best option is probably an R2R DAC to give me a more analogue sound, or to play around with REW and see if I need to sort my room out, or change the PEQ on the DAC.
So listening to FLAC files stored on my music server, it sounds pretty good.
Streaming the audio direct from Amazon HD sounds less good. Is this just the problem with internet streaming?
It sounds richer/fuller from the local files. I use Amazon as it gives me a cheaper family subscription, and this is not something I really want to change.
first question to ask is are you comparing the same masterings? Does Amazon even advise which mastering they offer?
Pigmy Pony
16-09-2023, 13:16
If the lesser SQ from Amazon HD is bothering you, maybe you could try a free trial session from one of the rival streamers and see what you may be missing. Like Tidal, or as they call it down your way Le Tidal.
The thought had crossed my mind, but the other thought is to just put up with it and buy more vinyl.
Seen a second hand Audio-GD R1 for sale, which looks tempting, although the following video would suggest a DAC change will do "very little" to change things..
https://youtu.be/j_Jp8xLQJ1s?si=_RLJz_tZ5MkMFmPi
Tidal won't let me have a free trial. :(
I must have done that before, probably many years ago.
Tidal HiFi+ trial has begun.
There seems to be very little difference between them on a few tracks I have listened to.
I think I am expecting too much.
with CD or CD copied to local drive you've got absolute control over the mastering choice and the delivery mechanism.
CD is even simpler since there can be pitfalls in integrating a computer to get the data off the drive and send it to the DAC
With a streaming service you're at the mercy of whatever they shove down the pipe. I mean they could do anything to it, as well as only offering the latest, super-compressed mastering
yup mostly my streaming is my own cd copies, although i do use qobuz etc too and find they are mostly good. some are upgraded they say but are mostly just made too loud instead of a proper remaster. ive about 5/600gb of cd's or my own copies of vinyl whicch come out well
A major step forward today. I removed the Elfidelity USB card from the system, and I am feeding my DAC directly from the motherboard USB. It sounds better to my ears, so the Elfidelity is not going back in.
Today I spotted a Matrix Audio Element H at a price I could not refuse, so I bought it, as it is supposed to be an improvement over the onboard USB. I will feed it from an after all battery to start with, and if it is better, I may invest in a Linear Power Supply for the PC.
The Matrix Audio card has arrived, and is fitted.
I am pretty sure it is subtly better running off the internal power. It is not a massive difference, so I am glad I did not spend the €400 that they go for new.
Hopefully, an HD Plex 500W ATX linear supply will be on the way to me soon, then it is job done on the digital side, for now.
So what is your complete digital set up at the moment Kev?
Fanless PC (Asus Maximus Hero VIII / i7-6700k running as a i7-6700T / 16 or 32Gb Corsair RAM / Intel 512Gb M2 NVME / Samsung Evo SSDs / Corsair HX750i ATX PSU / Asus GT 1030 passive GPU / Matrix Audio Element H USB) connected to my RME ADI-2 DAC FS with a Neotech OCC silver USB cable, streaming from Amazon HD, or using Squeezlite through LMS. Fidelizer Pro is installed. OS is Win 11.
The DAC is connected to the Pre90 using Elecaudio OCC cable (I prefer this to the Neotech commonly used) using balanced connections, which is then connected to the Mod 686 using balanced connections, and then OCC speaker cable. The DAC is powered by a LDA linear PSU.
Fanless PC (Asus Maximus Hero VIII / i7-6700k running as a i7-6700T / 16 or 32Gb Corsair RAM / Intel 512Gb M2 NVME / Samsung Evo SSDs / Corsair HX750i ATX PSU / Asus GT 1030 passive GPU / Matrix Audio Element H USB) connected to my RME ADI-2 DAC FS with a Neotech OCC silver USB cable, streaming from Amazon HD, or using Squeezlite through LMS. Fidelizer Pro is installed. OS is Win 11.
The DAC is connected to the Pre90 using Elecaudio OCC cable (I prefer this to the Neotech commonly used) using balanced connections, which is then connected to the Mod 686 using balanced connections, and then OCC speaker cable. The DAC is powered by a LDA linear PSU.
Did you build the PC yourself?
I did, using some old bits I had lying around, and a few new bits.
It is built in a Fractal Design R5 case, hidden behind my TV. The case is vented with the top panels removed, and a dust filter installed.
The most difficult bit was tricking Windows 11 into installing on an old machine.
I did, using some old bits I had lying around, and a few new bits.
It is built in a Fractal Design R5 case, hidden behind my TV. The case is vented with the top panels removed, and a dust filter installed.
The most difficult bit was tricking Windows 11 into installing on an old machine.
I thought it sounded like a home built PC. A friend of mine builds Monster gaming PCs and is always looking for cutting edge graphics cards and ultra fast GPU etc. I don't understand a lot of it but I believe you can build stuff a lot better than is available on the market unless you pay big money.
I build all my PCs myself.
I have a monster gaming rig as well for my SIM racing. It allows me to practice circuits before my track days.
However, the requirements are completely different.
I build all my PCs myself.
I have a monster gaming rig as well for my SIM racing. It allows me to practice circuits before my track days.
However, the requirements are completely different.
Yeah I thought that was probably the case - different PC requirements for music vs gaming. Don't need such good graphics card for music?:)
I expect the overall performance is a fair bit lower for music PC than gaming from what I have seen?
Quite a bit lower, as long as you don’t plan to upsample everything with HQPlayer, or similar.
Quite a bit lower, as long as you don’t plan to upsample everything with HQPlayer, or similar.
Ah yes HQ player - Digital upsampling flavour of the month? To be fair I have not heard it and by all accounts it does get some great reviews.
I have heard the M-scaler however working with DAVE and that upscaling device really does bring something to the party!
I don’t use HQPlayer, and the Chord gear is too expensive for my taste/budget.
I don’t use HQPlayer, and the Chord gear is too expensive for my taste/budget.
Yes the Chord stuff is way too pricey but it is good. I have had a Mojo, Hugo and Qutest in my system and they have all performed well but not convinced me to part with cash.
I have always been trying to get my hands on DAVE for a listen in my system. I have heard it numerous times in my mates various systems over the past 6 years or so and it can sound stunning for digital. There were times when I really did feel it had crossed the threshold into analogue territory and it convinced me digital could definitely be a viable option but then the price bought me down to earth with a bump!:)
My 500w linear ATX PSU purchase has fallen through.
It was a returned unit that got damaged in transit back to HD Plex.
My 500w linear ATX PSU purchase has fallen through.
It was a returned unit that got damaged in transit back to HD Plex.
That's annoying.
Yes, but it is much cheaper this way.
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