Are digital iPod docks worth checking out?

[dave2010]

I have an iPod classic, which I hardly ever use. However, it does hold quite a lot of CDs. I can play it through my amp and speakers via an analogue cable, but I read somewhere that it's better to use a digital dock, which apparently avoids the iPod circuitry altogether.

Has anyone tried this? Is it worth the bother anyway? For example - http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/5625 There is another maker besides Onkyo I think, but I can't remember what it is.

[Themis]

Digital docks are, indeed, better.

There are three main ones: the Onkyo, the Wadia (i170 and i171) and the Denon (ASD-51N and ASD-51W).

Before getting into digital docks, may I ask if you have tried a dock cable ? (like this : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/iPhone-iPod-Line-Out-Dock-to-Car-AUX-Audio-Cable-6N-OFC_W0QQitemZ280478270907QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Aud ioTVElectronics_PortableAudio_MP3PlayerDocks?hash= item414dcec5bb, there are cheaper ones)

[dave2010]

Dmitri

Thanks for your response.

No, I've not tried a cable like that one. I have a couple of options right now. 1. Take the earphone output and use my 3.5mm jack to phono connector as input to my amp. I think I may also have a 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable which can go through an analogue switch which I use if I'm not over concerned about quality - and often it's good enough - http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=32114 - you may laugh, but it's not bad! [I keep it under or beside the TV bench.]

2. Take the output from my Sony Blu Ray - which is one of the ones with an iPod dock on a flying lead, and feed that through the amp. I don't know if that'd be a good option, as I'm not totally convinced about the overall quality of the Blu Ray unit - BDV-E300 - it' peps up video and is superficially impressive on surrround audio, such as DVD-A discs - which it can't play, but I feed the unit from a Toshiba EP30 HD DVD unit.

I'd certainly consider a digital dock if there'd be a significant and hopefully obvious improvement in sound overall. Otherwise I could just use various cables - possibly the one you suggest - or other routes, and save the money.

[Themis]

Well, if you use the earphone out, then, I would advice to consider buying a dock cable like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Line-Out-RCA-x-2-Phono-Cable-for-iPhone-3GS-IPods_W0QQitemZ400094220794QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C E_MP3Access_RL?hash=item5d277951fa before considering getting a digital dock.
The dac inside the iPod is not that bad. ;)

[dave2010]

Dimitri

Thanks. I'll start checking these out. Those cables don't look expensive - but I'll try what I've got first.

[Mark Grant]

Certainly worth trying a lineout adapter rather than using the headphone output.

This one is a dock to 3.5mm adapter to give you an idea:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/IPOD-LINE-OUT-DOCK-WITH-STEREO-JACK-BLACK-COLOR_W0QQitemZ290331576970QQcmdZViewItemQQptZOthe r_MP3_Player_Accessories?hash=item43991c4a8a&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&afsrc=1


Another dock to 3.5mm adapter:

http://www.hifiheadphones.co.uk/ibasso-line-out-dock-adapter-for-ipod-iphone-prodid-1201.html

There are places that sell the dock connector so you can make your own high quality cable rather than using with a 3.5mm cable.

the pinouts are here:
http://pinouts.ru/PortableDevices/ipod_pinout.shtml

google search for ipod lod finds many cables etc:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=ipod+lod&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB&aq=f&aqi=g7&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=


Not sure where to buy the connectors though, I cant find where I bought mine.

-

[break-3]

This adaptor might help if you're already using a 3.5mm-RCA. It's just a dock connector with a 3.5mm socket:
http://www.hifiheadphones.co.uk/ibasso-line-out-dock-adapter-for-ipod-iphone-prodid-1201.html

[dave2010]

Looking at the spec of the Onkyo NDS1 dock, it also has a video out capability via composite video. Not sure what level of quality could be obtained with that. Possibly a shame it's not HDMI, though for smallish videos any quality loss might not be too significant. Even SCART often has an RGB option!

Having seen the quality of some of my camera videos on an iMac, I think it should be possible to get really high quality video - so hope that this dock doesn't compromise the video too much. Until recently I didn't even think about video on an iPod, but then a colleague showed me some videos he'd got on a portable device. At first I thought he'd compressed them down to a small screen size - but then I realised he hadn't. There is enough space to get 30-40 or so full quality SD videos on a 160 Gbyte iPod, without having to reduce the screen size. That's not optimum for playback on an iPod, but if it can cope anyway, so what! It seemed to work. I don't know if it's feasible to do HD videos - but heck, give the gadget a break. It is only a few inches across, and there must be some constraints on the processing. Whether it's useful to carry a video library round on an iPod I can't really say, but it does seem feasible.

I've now tried the connection through my Blu Ray surround system, and it works, but I've not seriously assessed the quality that way. I suspect it'll be OK rather than very good, but might be good enough for casual listening.

[twelvebears]

I have an iPod classic, which I hardly ever use. However, it does hold quite a lot of CDs. I can play it through my amp and speakers via an analogue cable, but I read somewhere that it's better to use a digital dock, which apparently avoids the iPod circuitry altogether.

Has anyone tried this? Is it worth the bother anyway? For example - http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/5625 There is another maker besides Onkyo I think, but I can't remember what it is.

Hi Dave.

Topically enough, this whole subject was part of a demo that Electric Beach and I sat through at the recent Heathrow show.

Using the headhone out put will definately seriously limit the quality if used to connect to a line in. Apart from the volume pot, inbuilt headphone amps in iPods are quite limited, plus there are impedence matching issues.

Using any straight dock will be an improvement as you're accessing a fixed, line-level feed, but this still relys on the in-built DAC which are far from brillient and ANY budget DAC would be much better.

The problem is that rather than doing as they have on iMacs or MacBooks and making the 'phone socket a combined headhone/optical digital output, access to the direct digital stream WAS pretty much prevented until recently when some companies (who had presumably had to pay Apple) started producing docks which can access the digital stream and bypass the internal DAC.

I'd recommend the Onkyo dock myself as I have one and it's really good.

I've got it hooked into my system so that if a friend comes round with an iPod and want's me to listen to something we can listen to it through my system.

If the music is on the iPod as Apple lossless, the results are pretty bloody good too.

[dave2010]

2. Take the output from my Sony Blu Ray - which is one of the ones with an iPod dock on a flying lead, and feed that through the amp. I don't know if that'd be a good option, as I'm not totally convinced about the overall quality of the Blu Ray unit - BDV-E300 - it' peps up video and is superficially impressive on surrround audio, such as DVD-A discs
Now I'm even wondering if this Blu Ray surround sound system even has any outputs. What I thought were analogue outputs may well be inputs. There seem to be inputs for optical Toslink, and SPDIF coaxial, and some phono sockets labelled Audio and TV - but these could also be inputs. I naively thought that there would be outputs, even if only analogue. It's increasingly looking as though the only outputs are for the speakers and the HDMI connection for the TV. The iPod sounds OK through the system - not unpleasant - but not ultra special. Might be worth substituting the supplied speakers for something with a bit more quality and seeing what happens.

[dave2010]

Dimitri
Well, if you use the earphone out, then, I would advice to consider buying a dock cable like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Line-Out-RCA-x-2-Phono-Cable-for-iPhone-3GS-IPods_W0QQitemZ400094220794QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C E_MP3Access_RL?hash=item5d277951fa before considering getting a digital dock.
The dac inside the iPod is not that bad. ;)Thanks again for this. I ordered the cable in the end, as relatively cheap - even cheaper if you make an offer.

You say the dac inside the iPod is not that bad - mine's a Classic - and it certainly seems good enough for what's on it at present, though now I should put some lossless encoded material on if I can figure that out. Perhaps the dacs used differ between the different iPods. Are they all roughly equally good? We also have a nano and an iPod Touch - not mine though.

I want to ask more about the Onkyo dock - but will wait for a later post.

I had an email today about the iPad - http://www.apple.com/uk/ipad/. Does that also have audio out - hopefully decent quality? Could be worth checking that out when it finally becomes available.

[dave2010]

Steve

I'd recommend the Onkyo dock myself as I have one and it's really good.

...

If the music is on the iPod as Apple lossless, the results are pretty bloody good too.Looking at the specs for the Onkyo, does it only have digital outputs? No analogue? Not quite sure what kind of beast it is - whether it just converts the Apple output to SPDIF for feed into an external DAC, or if it also has its own DAC.

Also, there is mention of video outputs, but only composite. Is that good? Perhaps if you're only interested in audio you've not checked - but I could find a use for my iPod as a video storage device, and a dock like thiis could make it more useful/useable.

[dave2010]

Looking at the spec of the Onkyo NDS1 dock, it also has a video out capability via composite video. Not sure what level of quality could be obtained with that.
Now found the manual on the Onkyo site - http://www.eu.onkyo.com/dl/1459201/Manual_ND-S1_English.pdf

at http://www.eu.onkyo.com/products/ND-S1.html

It's now clear to me that this is "only" a way of getting Toslink/SPDIF out, though has a few bonus features, such as video and remote control.

Mac users presumably don't need to bother - or if they have older Macs without the optical out they perhaps can't. The device seems to be PC only.

It's not a DAC, so there's no analogue output.

For iPod owners it may be a cheaper option (altogether) than buying one of these http://www.m2tech.biz/products.html (as well). Which would match a DAC better I don't know.

Alternatively it might be possible to play through a computer - though my PC currently seems temperamental (actually it's iTunes, which I note some here hate), and doesn't seem to want to output sound from my iPod through my PC. No doubt some software nonsense. AFAIK it's not even the case that the library is different - unless I inadvertently connected the iPod to my wife's machine.

As I mentioned earlier, it does have a video out, but I don't know how good that is. Has anyone here tried it? What resolution settings are possible?

[Psion770]

Hi I use a digital dock the Wadia 170i - it sounds a lot better than using it directly via the mini out jack I play mine through a Beresford Caiman and the detail using it using Apple Lossless is staggering - it bypasses the audio chips and Stan's amazing DAC does the rest I am having another power supply built for it as the standard Wadia runs extremely hot and there is no way to turn the unit off from the mains the PSU unit is hidden inside a a sideboard with a number of malt whiskies - not a good combination... I haven't heard the Onkyo but the comics rate it ... I rate my Classic Wadia combo I have the convenience of a portable music collection which I can enjoy at home...

Kind Regards - Martyn

[dave2010]

Thanks Martyn. I found a Wadia FAQ - http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/170i/iTransport_FAQ.pdf taken from this site - http://www.wadia.com/products/transports/170i/technology.php

On the face of it this does seem a bit cleverer than the Onkyo dock, but some things aren't clear. The video output is component (compared with composite) or S-video - but not HDMI. The note in the pdf file says that the video is simply passed through.

There's a pair of analogue outputs, but no statement about how the audio is generated. If I were making/marketing such a device I'd be inclined to trumpet the DAC capabilities if they're good, or make some statement about passing on a digital signal to another device for improved quality. It seems odd that there isn't any statement about this.

I have a wire (recommended by Dimitri) which passes the audio signal from an iPod to my amp, and it's a clear improvement over the headphone output, but there's no DAC involved.

Actually I'd expect the Wadia to contain a DAC, though perhaps a competent rather than outstanding one, but the documentation doesn't make this clear at all.

The comments re video outputs suggest that if I need more information about video I should look elsewhere, and that's also making me wonder if there's a cheap cable which will allow me to use an iPod with a TV e.g iPod connector to HDMI or similar.

The price I found for the Wadia is around £345, so personally I'd be interested to know exactly what's in the box to justify the quite high cost.
It may, of course, be outstanding, but the Onkyo (which maybe doesn't actually do too much - other than convert to SPDIF and pass through video, together with some remote control functionality) can be had for around £125. The difference in cost is over £200, which might buy a few beers or even dinners.

Most of us can't afford to buy both in order to make a comparison.

[bigmarty]

Hi I use a digital dock the Wadia 170i - it sounds a lot better than using it directly via the mini out jack I play mine through a Beresford Caiman and the detail using it using Apple Lossless is staggering - it bypasses the audio chips and Stan's amazing DAC does the rest I am having another power supply built for it as the standard Wadia runs extremely hot and there is no way to turn the unit off from the mains the PSU unit is hidden inside a a sideboard with a number of malt whiskies - not a good combination... I haven't heard the Onkyo but the comics rate it ... I rate my Classic Wadia combo I have the convenience of a portable music collection which I can enjoy at home...

Kind Regards - Martyn

Hi Folks,
I agree with Martyn, a great piece of kit, I also use Stan's amazing Caiman DAC and I use Russ Andrews 170iPak for the power supply for the Wadia 170iTransport which I think sounds better and runs a lot cooler, when I save up more pennies I will get the DC power supplies & the internal clock of the PCM2706 chip with a ultra-low jitter external clock moded this will bring it up to another level :)

Marty