Turntables: Setting Your Bias [Archive]

The Grand Wazoo

29-03-2010, 00:01

Maybe this is the Whirl of Piss-dom that should have been my 3,000th post (...........use it wisely my son, you will have but one 3,000th post.....)

Anyway, I'd like to address something that I've been noticing for a while now on the Art of Sound, and that's the lack of discussion about 'other' turntables.

What are considered to be reasonably competant devices elsewhere are given rather scant coverage here, & I think it can only be because of the preponderance of Technics users - and of course talk about a piece of equipment attracts people with an interest in that equipment, so the cycle goes on. Now I don't mean to denegrate the abilities of that turntable at all but I can't help noticing that there is a distinct lack of discussion about all those other turntables.

The Lenco's, Garrards & Thorens get a little coverage & various lower priced decks get the odd mention - usually from new members who are looking for advice on what they have. But there are a few of us here who own things like Michell, SME etc who never speak of our decks.

Is this because sometimes those who speak most vociferously about the Technics are perhaps a little disparaging about some of the other options and we're afraid of getting into a 'mine is better than yours' type argument, or is it because we are quietly happy with what we've got & don't need to discuss it? For further reading, see also: valve v. solid state amplification and different approaches thereof (PP v. SE etc)

Why must some lovers of one approach insist upon smearing equipment that doesn't follow their favoured modus operandi?

chris@panteg

29-03-2010, 00:17

Hi Chris ' I'm quite happy to discuss any turntable:)

Tell us about your Gyro and why you prefer it ' i have always liked and admired Michell record player's ' especially the Orbe ' i came very close to buying one ' it was a choice between a nice condition Voyd .5 ' NAS spacedeck and the Michell , all of these work beautifully with my preferred tonearm SME309/310 .

The Vinyl Adventure

29-03-2010, 00:18

My 3000 is coming up soon too! I shall make sure to give it it's respect...
It does get very techie round here indeed, I'd love to hear more about other tt's
I went for the techie as I wanted something I could play with without to much risk to damaging it... I think that's the atraction for a lot of people, easy relativly inexpensive upgrades at a whatever pace you like... It's easy to understand why something like that would get talked about so much I think!

Marco

29-03-2010, 00:25

Hi Chris,

Interesting thread topic. As far as I'm concerned, feel free to tell anyone how wonderful you think the Gyro or any other kit you use is - you won't get a hard time for it, I promise you ;)

It's natural to enthuse about what gear you use personally and know from hearing in a familiar system. I'd rather people recommended what they know works well from personal experience (even if it's often the same kit regularly being recommended/eulogised) than attempting to portray knowledge about something they haven't heard to further whatever agenda. This rarely happens here, but I’ve seen plenty of evidence of it elsewhere!

That does no-one any good in the long run.

As for this:

Why must some lovers of one approach insist upon smearing equipment that doesn't follow their favoured modus operandi?

Most of it (for example when I refer to 'elastic band' decks, etc) is just gentle leg-pulling tongue-in-cheek stuff, which should be taken with a pinch of salt. It certainly is not meant as "smearing" - apart from some of my remarks about 'badge-fi', which I have a personal very strong dislike of, but Michell or SME turntables don't come under my radar in that respect, as I rate both company's products for their engineering prowess.

So get on yer soap-box, mate, and promote the wonders of the Gyro, ARC or Levinson and help redress the balance! :cool:

Marco.

John

29-03-2010, 05:56

I am guilty of singing the praises of the Salavation which will be my future deck of choice

DSJR

29-03-2010, 07:00

I don't think that this is an issue here to be fair and noone's got banned for discussing decks other than the techie..... ;)

The point about the techie is that it's a solidly and reliably built start, which can then be methodically improved in mapped out stages, which are starting to get a bit expensive now I think (that heavy platter won't be cheap I guarantee).

Might as well have bought a Heavy'd Spacedeck methinks with a Wave Mechanic supply or tried to find a good used HyperSpace, both of which are BRITISH through and through and stunning performers...

Lenco's are incredible bargains still and there's loads around for not much money - same with TD150's and 160's although they need more Linn style work. The supplied arms look like pants on both makes, but will easily take the more durable of todays budget cartridges such as Stantons and OM Ortofons, as well as the basic 2M one and the AT120E with the TP13 arms if the bearings are ok.

John

29-03-2010, 08:13

Agree around the Lencos Dave and we both have championed them in the past I also love 401
I think the Super scout master is a really good deck as well and with all the tweaks capable of performing at a high level
I actually would like to see a few more threads about other decks too
I think the 1210 offers lots of potential but its not for me and requires quite a lot of money to really get it to sing.

Marco

29-03-2010, 08:27

Hi John,

I think the 1210 offers lots of potential but its not for me and requires quite a lot of money to really get it to sing.

Interesting... When did you hear a fully modified one to form that opinion and what was it about it you didn't like? :)

Just curious! :cool:

Marco.

John

29-03-2010, 08:33

I heard one but hard to really tell as going through head phones
But I have heard a fully fledged SP10 and it has often been said that the 1210 has 95% performance so to be honest more judging it on that

Rare Bird

29-03-2010, 08:36

Before you even attempt seting up an arm you want one with a string/weight AS, Sadly there aint many these days.

John

29-03-2010, 08:39

Marco its not that I do not like the 1210 I just perfer the Salvation compaired to the sp10

Marco

29-03-2010, 08:41

Fair enough, matey - I'd be interested though to see what you think of my modded 1210 when you pop up for a listen :)

As an aside though, regarding the SP10, the recent bearing mod has IMO removed that remaining 5% and possibly put the SP10 into a situation of deficit, and there is still the platter and new PSU to go....

I agree about headphone listening - it is rather restrictive in terms of being able to accurately assess an alien system.

I think Dave should stop being a lazy arse, ahem, (;)), bite the bullet at the next show, and demonstrate his product range with a top-notch system on external speakers. His big Marantz monoblocks and Focal speakers, in particular are rather good.

Marco.

John

29-03-2010, 08:46

When speaking to Dave he said the Sp10 still had the edge even with all the mods but has reliabilty issues I hope to come round in May

Marco

29-03-2010, 08:49

Lol - well he would say that, as the SP10 is his baby! :lol:

I'm not so sure myself... Perhaps at the next show Dave could bring his SP10 and do a comparison side-by-side in the same system with the same arm and cartridge on both decks? :)

Now *that* would be interesting!

Marco.

P.S May would be cool - stay over the weekend or something so we can do things properly :cool:

MartinT

29-03-2010, 08:51

I've always liked the higher end Michell turntables (I used to have a Synchro and loved its futuristic looks) and the VPI Scoutmaster and variants are excellent.

The SL-1210 for me is a new venture and yielding incredible results. I'm not into evengelising, just happy to help anyone who wants to start enjoying LPs again.

Tea24

29-03-2010, 08:55

Well the best kept secret bargain in the TT market IMHO is the Notts Analogue Interspace Junior. At 1100 smackeroos with arm thrown in, same platter & bearing as the original Spacedecketc., it wipes the floor with some of the equivalently priced opposition (IMHO again). Even better if you get it at 3 months old for £600 as I did:ner::):). Add a Dynavector 10x5 and a Pro-ject speed box (the latter being a significant improvement and cheaper than the NA equivalent). I suppose however that the addition of a PSU to a belt TT vindicates the direct drive merchants' cry that only DD's keep to speed accurately. I would agree with this but a Notts A with speed control has rock solid speed accuracy. What I also love is its simplicity; there is nothing to go wrong and it plays MUSIC MUSIC MUSIC:lolsign:

Julian

Marco

29-03-2010, 08:56

Indeed! Did you have a good show, Martin?

We need a proper write-up of your thoughts :)

Marco.

MartinT

29-03-2010, 09:10

It wasn't bad but a little disappointing except that I came home with lots of lovely vinyl. I wrote a quickie report here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5844&page=3

As for a proper write-up, I think Neil will be doing one that'll be very comprehensive - unfortunately I didn't see him so I couldn't introduce myself. For me the show was about meeting people and that was very satisfying.

Ruth enjoyed it and co-incidentally she has just stepped into the beginner's pen of hi-fi with a nice little system I put together for her using Wharfedale Diamond 9.1s. Not bad at all and now she wants a turntable :eek:

The Grand Wazoo

29-03-2010, 09:49

My comments were not meant to diminish the value of discussion that does take place about any given deck, but rather to try to promote a more balanced representation of the real life situation. If the discussion about why things happen otherwise can be held, perhaps more of us with alternatives will feel compelled to write about them.

Of course, I understand why the Technics is an attractive option, but because it's so often the automatic response to recommend it, sometimes it might look like people here think it's the only option worth considering & to look at any other is foolish.

I don't think this thread is the best place for me to start waxing lyrical about John Michell & his designs – I wanted to know what people think about my observation and, if they recognise it why they think this might have happened. The key part of my original post that I think needs emphasising is this:

Is this because sometimes those who speak most vociferously about the Technics are perhaps a little disparaging about some of the other options and we're afraid of getting into a 'mine is better than yours' type argument, or is it because we are quietly happy with what we've got & don't need to discuss it?

Andre:

Before you even attempt seting up an arm you want one with a string/weight AS, Sadly there aint many these days.

It's really great to see you back mate, but you've got to read more than just the thread title before you post!!

Marco

29-03-2010, 09:56

Hi Chris,

I get your point and it's valid, but....

Is this because sometimes those who speak most vociferously about the Technics are perhaps a little disparaging about some of the other options and we're afraid of getting into a 'mine is better than yours' type argument, or is it because we are quietly happy with what we've got & don't need to discuss it?

...I think "disparaging" is a little too strong a word to use. I see little evidence of that and suspect you may be interpreting tongue-in-cheek remarks which are sometimes made in the wrong way :)

Marco.

Rare Bird

29-03-2010, 10:05

I say a late Logic 'DM101' pisses on most decks these day but heres me thinking it's a Competition :lol:

The Vinyl Adventure

29-03-2010, 10:07

I have to say, I do disagree with the idea that the recent mods for the 1210 are getting to expensive (sorry dave) nothing is to expensive if you cam afford it and there is no overwhelming presure to go down the route of the more expensive upgrades!
I had another chat with dave the other day he compares the 1210 to harley davidson motor bikes and the mods that can be made to them to the point that hardly any parts remain original - he spoke of his love and interest for those bikes and how much he apreciates the engineering that goes into them!
He then talks about the parts for the techie that him and mike new are working on with the same passion and says with all of them implemented and set up correctly you could have a true giant killing deck!
But, at no point did he try and sell any of it to me, he never used that sales thing that usually goes "your tt is good but it's nothing without this new..." that you get so much in hifi ...
He is just working on more and more improvments to a tt that he thinks has potential and it's pretty obvious (if you talk to him) that he's doing it because that what he loves to do ...
If he sells these things I get the impression that is a bonus, but not the be all and end all of it!
Once again I asked him about an uprade and he said it wouldn't benefit me, which once again lost him a bit of profit...(that's three times he has done that now) I finished the convo as always in the knowledge that my tt was being tinkerd with by the one person who I can 100% trust to do the right thing by me and it!
These upgrades aren't for everyone, he did sell me how much he expected some of them to cost, and they aren't cheap.. They are there for the enthusiast who wants to be a part of daves engineering dream, I for one find it fasinating and the upgrade procces very rewarding!
Which is yet another reason to by a techie... Unbeatable technical support! ...

This is not to say that I don't want to hear about other tt's I just really understand the reasons the techie gets the cverage it does!

The Grand Wazoo

29-03-2010, 10:16

Oops, I hope you don't think this was motivated by some beef I have with you Marco!
I know you mean them as tongue in cheek, but there was a time when I didn't. I think you & I both understand each other very well indeed in almost all matters. However, some folks, particularly newcomers, may not realise you're being less than serious, so whatever the intention, it can come across as disparaging.

There are people (not here) who make comments like those, but do mean it.

However, this was not meant to be a Technics or Technics owner bashing excercise, but quite the opposite.

horace

29-03-2010, 10:19

Having been a dedicated LP12 user for about 15 years, I made a change about 18 months ago - sold my LP12/lingo/ekos/etc and auditioned some other decks.

I tried various contenders from Notts Analogue, Clearaudio, Michell and Roksan.

Simple truth: I didn't hear a bad one. They were all really, really good in fact.

In the end I bought an Orbe SE and am unlikely to change it. I've upgraded the arm from RB300 to Tecnoarm (mine was rewired by Audio Origami at some point in its life) and transferred my trusty ATOC9 from the outgoing Linn. I'm not saying there's nothing better out there, but I'm pretty sure that serious improvement over any part of my turntable setup would be a very expensive exercise.

My point, I think, is that anyone buying a new turntable these days can be pretty confident that the overall standard is very high.

That said, last week I had my first ever listen to a Garrard 401 (in a nice multi layer slate plinth with homebrew Schroeder-influenced arm) and was very inpressed indeed. I can see why people like them so much. Newer ain't necessarily better - quality engineering is timeless. Mind you, buying and fettling a 401 is hardy a bargain option these days.

I'd be very keen to hear what a hotrodded Technics can do.

Cheers

Martin

Marco

29-03-2010, 10:21

Good post, Hamish - it pretty much sums up my thoughts and also the reality of the situation :)

Returning to the point Chris made, I think one also has to bear in mind that much of the championing/eulogising (certainly on my part) of the Technics, is to offer a proverbial two-fingered salute to all those who ignorantly disparaged (yes here that word relevant) and ridiculed ALL direct-drive T/Ts in the days of blinkered belt-driven LP12 and Rega domination, and to say to these people (mainly some dealers and manufacturers) in the finest Scottish vernacular: 'Get it right up ye!!' :upyours: :eyebrows:

Therefore, it's important to bear who the target is of my remarks - it is most certainly NOT the current users of any T/Ts without a D/D motor ;)

Marco.

Rare Bird

29-03-2010, 10:25

Having been a dedicated LP12 user for about 15 years, I made a change about 18 months ago - sold my LP12/lingo/ekos/etc and auditioned some other decks.

God what torture you should have just bought a used LOGIC 'DM101'/'Syrinx PU-2' first off

;)

MartinT

29-03-2010, 10:31

I really believe that vinyl playback has improved no end *since* its 'demise' and the rise of CD! Better mechanical understanding and synergy between decks, arms and cartridges is one area, but I believe far superior phono stages have appeared since then too. Finally, we all seem to have a better understanding of isolation and power issues.

The sum effect is far better vinyl sound than I can ever remember from the 70s and early 80s.

YNWaN

29-03-2010, 10:45

Before you even attempt seting up an arm you want one with a string/weight AS, Sadly there aint many these days.

What on earth are you on about Andre?

A/ the thread isn't actually about adjusting ones arm.

B/ there are a number of ways of applying bias - thread and weight is only one of them.

C/ successfully setting up ones tone-arm has nothing to do with whether it uses a weight on a thread to apply the bias.

Or is you post supposed to be some form of joke?

Rare Bird

29-03-2010, 10:56

What on earth are you on about Andre?

A/ the thread isn't actually about adjusting ones arm.

B/ there are a number of ways of applying bias - thread and weight is only one of them.

C/ successfully setting up ones tone-arm has nothing to do with whether it uses a weight on a thread to apply the bias.

Or is you post supposed to be some form of joke?

:lol: One question: you disputing a string/weight against a spring for acuraceeeeeeeee?

YNWaN

29-03-2010, 11:01

I'm not sure - can you rephrase the question in English please - many thanks :).

Rare Bird

29-03-2010, 11:06

It's quite easy to understand unless your from an alien planet.String/weights AS are far superior to the shitty sprung loaded AS.

horace

29-03-2010, 11:07

God what torture you should have just bought a used LOGIC 'DM101'/'Syrinx PU-2' first off

;)

LOL.

Well, what I should have done is this:

Pay more attention in science lessons at school. That way I might have gone on to study useful things instead of pointless wishy-washy Humanities.

I should have spent every waking hour drawing turntable designs or working tirelessly in my workshop, searching for the perfect bearing.

I should have developed an all-encompassing knowledge of electronics and applied that knowledge to the development of the ultimate turntable power supply.

Having achieved my goal of building the 'best turntable in the world', I should then have employed the world's best ad men to help me brainwash the unbelievers into buying it in preference to all the other rot on the market at the time. That done, I should then have followed in the time honoured tradition of other British hifi pioneers: I should have built precisely 15 samples (in my shed, having grown a beard and acquired a jumper with holes in it), developed some really fine eccentricities and then gone spectacularly doolally, ensuring that the company disappeared within three years of startup and that every single one of the very few products actually sold would be utterly unserviceable thereafter. My legendary status would thus be guaranteed.

Job done ;)

Anyway, what were you saying about the logic again?

Cheers

:)

Martin

Rare Bird

29-03-2010, 11:12

:lolsign:

DSJR

29-03-2010, 11:26

Sorry Andre, thread and weight bias correction adds friction, hence SME adding a little roller to reduce this and help prevent kinking of the nylon line when not in use for prolonged periods. A well set up spring affair can be next to frictionless and quite correct (the Ittok one uses a line wrapping round the pillar as the arm moves and extending a spring as it does so. My Kenwood arm "project" uses a next to frictionless lever and spring assembly). The PU2 was a disaster of an arm, far better realised in the PU3 and its modern PU7 derivative IMO. I agree about the potential of the DM101 though, but the poor thing didn't have a chance and the PT and Systemdek III were the only ones which seemed to survive as LP12 competitors, although few Linn dealers sold them..

Hamish. I fully agree that if you can afford to spend the best part of £2K on doing up the Techie, you can have a great turntable, although I still think the SP10 could be better depending on the plinth it's put on and so may a NAS HyperSpace, which can occasionally be got used for £1500 or so. The thing is, the standard article out of the box is about Rega standard (although the arm is too light and resonates as supplied - the Mk5 may be better though).

By the way, how many of you (sort of) anti Rega people have heard one on the recommended dedicated wall shelf? I find the sound transformed for the better if the deck is sited so (assuming the wall can take it), the bass becoming far more realistic...

Michel decks are such a pain to set up - bloody springs and cable dressing, when the Techie and NAS decks hardly need any by comparison. HiFi Dave has just set up a full Orbe/SME IV and rates it highly indeed, despite the messing about needed...

I still think deep inside that the LP12 offers a lot, especially with a RubyKon style sub chassis fitted. The plinths have improved in quality too but new ones are ridiculous in price though, as is Linn's entire range. It didn't seem to matter at the time, but thinking back to the Lingo when it was priced at £495 and costing £47 to make makes my blood boil now.....

YNWaN

29-03-2010, 11:28

It's quite easy to understand unless your from an alien planet.String/weights AS are far superior to the shitty sprung loaded AS.

Utter nonsense - there is absolutely no evidence to support your sweeping statement.

It's not that easy to understand your post because it is vague and badly written, both in terms of grammar and spelling. For a start, you have to state exactly what you mean by the term 'accuracy' in this situation. Most peoples interpretation of the term would actually relate to calibration and this has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual mechanism employed.

MartinT

29-03-2010, 11:59

By the way - anti-skate has always been an incorrect term. It is not in any way trying to prevent the arm from 'skating' across the record. This would suggest that there is something catastrophically wrong with the arm or stylus.

The correct term is bias, since the mechanism is there to provide equal pressure against each groove wall by counteracting a pivoted arm's tendency to pull towards the centre. Thus no bias is required for a parallel tracking arm.

As for which type of mechanism is best: string/weight, spring or falling weight, surely it's in the execution. I don't think adherence to one type makes any sense.

Haselsh1

29-03-2010, 12:05

MartinT

29-03-2010, 12:11

That's your opinion, Shaun. The reason some of us have bought a 1210 and dropped further money on it is that it forms the basis of a great high end turntable because it has a world class motor and is very well built. It's also because some of us haven't heard a better turntable for the £1500 example that you give.

If you don't want to spend more money on yours, then that's fine. But don't try to suggest that there is not a lot more to be had from it for (relatively) easy money.

Haselsh1

29-03-2010, 12:17

Money is not easy, especially for the majority of us. I have to look very carefully at what I do with mine and throwing it at an inferior turntable to bring it up to the required standard has to be given very serious consideration. As a DIY project I fully understand why people do what they do but there will always be folk out there who simply want to listen to music via vinyl. For them, there is a much simpler solution.

Beechwoods

29-03-2010, 12:33

Utter nonsense - there is absolutely no evidence to support your sweeping statement.

It's not that easy to understand your post because it is vague and badly written, both in terms of grammar and spelling. For a start, you have to state exactly what you mean by the term 'accuracy' in this situation. Most peoples interpretation of the term would actually relate to calibration and this has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual mechanism employed.

Andr'es pulling legs somewhat with his 'sweeping statements' so don't take it personally Mark. But please don't knock people's grammar and spelling - attack the ball not the man and all that... though I'm sure Andr'e is more than capable of taking the knocks :)

MartinT

29-03-2010, 12:56

throwing it at an inferior turntable to bring it up to the required standard

But why call it an inferior turntable? Could you buy better for the £225 you spent on yours?

You have to look at the bigger picture. Most of us who have a 1210 with mods have done so because there is not a better deck to be had for the money we have spent on it.

DSJR

29-03-2010, 13:08

Ahem - Spacedeck - ahem....... :lol:

The whole point about the techie is the reasonable sound "out-of-the-box" with the potential for far more. Nothing wrong with the drive system tbh and the Timestep mods sort out measurably AND AUDIBLY the remaining wrinkles.. It's not a huge great lump either and having a lid can make all the difference domestically.

The Grand Wazoo

29-03-2010, 13:11

The attraction that I can see for the modifed Technics approach is that despite the relatively high eventual price, the ultimate performance can be achieved through a series of small, well defined and reasonably priced increments. This means that the cost is attainable without too much pain, unlike the crushing single big purchase of most of the competition. There are also enough competing accessory products & stopping off points to meet almost everyone's sound quality expectations and/or budget.

Haselsh1

29-03-2010, 13:16

I simply refer to the SL1210 as an inferior turntable because it obviously is. That's the obvious reason as to why it requires so much money spent on it. If it were so superior there would be no money to be spent. There would simply be no need. Due to the fact it is so below par, it has to have a small fortune spent on it to bring it up to a decent standard. If money was so easy as you suggest, I would not have a Technics.

Haselsh1

29-03-2010, 13:17

Mike Reed

29-03-2010, 16:49

DAVE,

Why are the Michell decks difficult to set up? I have experience of the Gyro and Orbe and they are a doddle. Even building an Orbe from component parts (no choice here) was fairly straightforward.

Now an LP12 ! Goes off song, difficult to get at,etc. (at least the old ones, but maybe they've improved)

My Orbe is now 15 years old, has suffered four house moves and still performs beautifully. However, I had to get a new belt after 14 years !!!!!

This ressurection of old decks, especially relatively inexpensive ones like the Goldring-Lenco GL75, amazes me, as there was no separate power supply, lots of mechanical linkages and was pressed steel for the most part. However, my friend has a 'refurbished' one, which certainly does the job with a Soundsmith cart. and some Jelco-ish arm. I wouln't go back to a GL75, L88, 301 or 401, though, as I believe idler-wheel drive to be inherently noisy with today's top-flight arms and cart's.

As TGW said (I think), today's leading decks are all good; just different. Mind you, something like the Avid Acurus really is eye-candy, as well as being superb, whereas I think the Orbe doesn't cut the artistic mustard at all.

The Grand Wazoo

29-03-2010, 17:45

I agree with you about set-up. I can't think of a suspended deck that I'd rather set up from scratch. Remember the original Oracles with their multi-coloured spring combinations? Linn / Thorens / AR - grappling about under a plinth, adjusting spring loaded screws? (....jig or no jig) Super wobbly Pink Triangles?

Marco

29-03-2010, 19:38

Guys,

I'll get to the rest of this thread later (it's been a busy day), but this bit needs clarifying.

I simply refer to the SL1210 as an inferior turntable because it obviously is. That's the obvious reason as to why it requires so much money spent on it. If it were so superior there would be no money to be spent. There would simply be no need. Due to the fact it is so below par, it has to have a small fortune spent on it to bring it up to a decent standard. If money was so easy as you suggest, I would not have a Technics.

Hi Shaun,

The point is mate that people like Martin and me have never seen the stock SL-1200/1210 as anything else other than a truly world-class MOTOR MECHANISM - not a turntable - (that comes with some free bits allowing you to play records) - a motor mechanism ALONE which would cost thousands of pounds to produce, if made today by a 'boutique' hi-fi manufacturer.

Yes, you're quite right, the SL-1200/1210 *IS* an 'inferior' turntable, which is precisely why its ancillary items (arm, PSU, mat, feet, etc) must be upgraded in order to compliment the superb motor mechanism, and thus transform the SL-1200/1210 from being merely a world-class motor mechanism, with some 'free bits', into a world-class TURNTABLE, with the end result still costing a fraction of the price of other T/Ts on the market purporting to carry such a label....

Simples! :cool:

You don't want to take it that far and simply wish to enjoy it as it is, which is absolutely fine :)

Marco.

DSJR

29-03-2010, 20:13

MartinT

29-03-2010, 20:37

The point is mate that people like Martin and me have never seen the stock SL-1200/1210 as anything else other than a truly world-class MOTOR MECHANISM

Thank you Marco, I tried to make the same point in another thread, but you've said it better than me. That motor is the culmination of an R&D budget that most medium size companies could only drool at.

Marco

29-03-2010, 20:56

That's exactly it, Martin!

Marco.

chris@panteg

29-03-2010, 23:34

A quick 2 cents worth from me ' i think my 1210 with the mods that i have is something i could happily live with even without the 309 .

And a very important point ' it still looks like a bog standard techie .

Now has anyone any experience of the NAS Analog turntable ' i have always been fascinated by this deck ' i met a guy recently who had one on loan and found it breathtaking ' alas for him he couldn't afford it .

A friend of mine used to have the Mentor ' it was very good but i still feel the Spacedeck is a cracker and best bang for buck in the whole range .

Will

30-03-2010, 00:55

markf

30-03-2010, 02:26

I replaced my Townshend Rock back in 2002 with this Clearaudio Champion, I upgraded it over the years

Standard Champion with Clearaudio RB250

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a158/markf_pfm/rowland8.jpg

Level II .

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a158/markf_pfm/Clearaudio_Brnk10-5.jpg

The last thing I added was an SRA base.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a158/markf_pfm/TT_B3.jpg

John

30-03-2010, 05:34

This is a comment I find very sad because in a propa plinth slate or high mass
they are quiet say it again quiet

I wouln't go back to a GL75, L88, 301 or 401, though, as I believe idler-wheel drive to be inherently noisy with today's top-flight arms and cart's.

top flight arms and cart's :stalks:

Totally agree they are very capable players. I heard Will 401 at Owston and it is very good indeed. People now understand how to get the best out of them in the past people did not design the plinth allowing the idler to produce to much rumble. If memory serves me well Marco is was impressed with Will 401

DSJR

30-03-2010, 07:25

Now has anyone any experience of the NAS Analog turntable ' i have always been fascinated by this deck ' i met a guy recently who had one on loan and found it breathtaking ' alas for him he couldn't afford it .

A friend of mine used to have the Mentor ' it was very good but i still feel the Spacedeck is a cracker and best bang for buck in the whole range .

The Spacedeck IS a cracker and was very much better than pre-Cirkus LP12's for much less money. It also transforms an RB300 arm too.....

My much missed Mentor:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/MentorDecca.jpg

Themis

30-03-2010, 07:31

Don't care what you all seem to say, my P3 allows me to listen to my music the way I like. :ner:

chris@panteg

30-03-2010, 09:31

In that case i would say you have reached ' audio nirvana ':cool:

Themis

30-03-2010, 09:34

Lol Chris. :)

It's a fact, I'm much more complicated with digital sources than with analog ones. Probably because the latter fulfill most of my basic listening needs (even if I don't know where "nirvana" may be ! :)).

chris@panteg

30-03-2010, 09:41

MartinT

30-03-2010, 10:13

You know, Chris, I think I'm there already. I just didn't know how damn fine the Jelco 250 arm is, all I needed to do was get my SUT into circuit with the right cables. It sounded simply stunning last night with some new vinyl I bought.

Any improvement the Dynavector will bring can only be a bonus.

chris@panteg

30-03-2010, 10:23

Hi Martin it makes you wonder ' doesn't it :scratch: i thought very hard about the Jelco ' i just wanted the SME too much .

Are you feeling nervous and apprehensive about the 507 ' is it going to be devastating etc 'etc ' can't be long now can it ? .

MartinT

30-03-2010, 10:32

I'm really looking forward to it - I have a quiet confidence that it's going to mate rather well with the Techie. We'll see, not long now...

Hypnotoad

30-03-2010, 23:27

What I don't understand here is why one buys a Technics SL1210 and then modifies it to the point that it is no longer a Technics SL1210. I also don't understand why one pays out in excess of fifteen hundred quid to modify a clearly inferior turntable when one could have bought a better turntable for the same amount of money. My SL1210 cost me 225 quid secondhand and I shall not be spending more money on it. Why would I...? I am not about to spend over fifteen hundred quid on it when I could buy a better unit for that amount of money.

Probably because most people don't have in excess of 1500 quid to shell out in one lump some for a turntable. Or 2000 quid table included.

If they did they may buy a Scoutmaster or similar table straight up.

The only drawback in sinking all that money into a Techy is you will never recoup it.

I had a SL1200 Mk2 and sold it for a little less than I paid for it.

Being a scrooge, rather than upgrading a Technics I got my ProJect Perspective used for half price and will sell it for close to that when I want to get a used Scoutmaster.

That's my upgrade path.

The Grand Wazoo

30-03-2010, 23:59

Hahahaha............
Just a thought, and in no way is this meant to be critical - it's more by way of amusement really, but we have collectively, kind of proved my point........

The Technic guys are discussing their turntables (& ancilliaries) & the 'owners of the others' including me are keeping schtum! But............ (& this may be my downfall)............rubber bands were only mentioned once! However, (hehehehehe)....that's probably because we kept our heads below the parapet!

YNWaN

31-03-2010, 00:20

Well, I've got a lot of views regarding turntables but in this instance I don't really know what to say. Superficially, turntables are a reasonably simplistic construction with a clearly defined job to do. However, almost every component on a deck interacts with every other and they are, in fact, very subtle constructions. Hi-Fi enthusiasts like to focus on specific design elements (like the drive system) but the truth is significantly more complex than such simplistic concepts.

In addition, none of the turntables I am personally interested in could be classed as budget - even the ones I have built. The one I am working on now will be very expensive as it uses a lot of very expensive components - such is the result of aspiring to the absolute.

I would agree that this forum is largely dominated by the Technics 1200/1210 - but so what :). My own ideas follow a different path (though I have investigated DD) - but good sound can be achieved in many ways as long as the concepts are applied properly.

The Grand Wazoo

31-03-2010, 00:40

I would agree that this forum is largely dominated by the Technics 1200/1210 - but so what . My own ideas follow a different path (though I have investigated DD) - but good sound can be achieved in many ways as long as the concepts are applied properly.

Again, you confirm my point.
I don't have a problem with the preponderance of Technics talk at all - I thought I made that fairly clear at the outset. What I do miss though, is the talk about the other stuff. We know about your Linn arm board & sub-chassis, but I don't think we truly know (from you) of that different (non-budget) path that you tread.

So spill the beans!

John

31-03-2010, 04:22

Well Chris as you know I am a big fan of Idlier drives once you get over the rumble issues. Both Teres and VPI have modern takes on this I used to have a VPI rim drive but sold it once I heard what the Verus drive did. The Salavation puts a slightly different take on this a lot of time has gone into getting the motor right. The Salvation uses a dc motor and rim drive. It also has a slate Plinth aryclic platter. It performs at very serious level IMHO and even outperforms the mighty Verus drive which had major reliablity issues with the motor.
Here is a link
http://www.trans-fi.com/turntables.htm

Rare Bird

31-03-2010, 05:44

http://www.trans-fi.com/turntables.htm

I recognise that platter i bought the same one

John

31-03-2010, 06:39

Yes DIY audio in Hong Kong I think Vic using a different platter now but cannot remember

NRG

31-03-2010, 07:41

To me ' its when you don't think about upgrading the kit so much ' and just get on with buying music ' whatever format it may be

When i have the 309 installed ' i believe i will be there with techie at least:).

Something to keep you going Chris while you get your deck sorted:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/DSCF3080.jpg

YNWaN

31-03-2010, 09:40

Again, you confirm my point.
I don't have a problem with the preponderance of Technics talk at all - I thought I made that fairly clear at the outset. What I do miss though, is the talk about the other stuff. We know about your Linn arm board & sub-chassis, but I don't think we truly know (from you) of that different (non-budget) path that you tread.

So spill the beans!

Sorry Chris - I didn't mean to imply you had a problem; I meant 'so what' in a general conversational manner - more like 'so what can we do about it'.

My 'non budget' path that you refer to isn't intentionally so - the deck is being developed for a client who is interested in the absolute (and that seems to cost). Everything is either completely custom or custom specified. Unfortunately I'm not really in a position to discuss design specifics (which is what you would probably most like to discuss) but, in general, I favour low mass, low stored energy and rapid transference of energy.

(I'm not a fan of slate for arm termination for example ;))

chris@panteg

31-03-2010, 10:16

Something to keep you going Chris while you get your deck sorted:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/DSCF3080.jpg

Hi Neil :youtheman:

That looks very nice ' not seen too many 309's on the SP10 , does it sound as good as it look's ' stupid daft question :doh:.

Is that the WAD phono stage underneath i spy ?

chris@panteg

31-03-2010, 10:25

I favour low mass, low stored energy and rapid transference of energy.

Hi Mark

That statement is pretty much what one of my previous decks ( Voyd.5) has as its main design principles ' and i don't for one moment think my 1210 even with more mods can match it ' the sheer amount of energy it can pull of a Vinyl LP is tremendous ' i understand Pete (i should coco) is getting a Voyd Reference ? .

If so i think he will be a very happy chap :).

YNWaN

31-03-2010, 10:30

Yes, I know Pete intends to get a Voyd ;) - in fact, the whole Voyd thing may yet live again if Guy has his way :).

Having said that, I'm not making anything vaguely like a voyd - so, it just goes to show that 'there is more than one way to skin a cat'.

chris@panteg

31-03-2010, 10:40

Marco

31-03-2010, 10:55

Hi Mark,

Superficially, turntables are a reasonably simplistic construction with a clearly defined job to do. However, almost every component on a deck interacts with every other and they are, in fact, very subtle constructions. Hi-Fi enthusiasts like to focus on specific design elements (like the drive system) but the truth is significantly more complex than such simplistic concepts.

Well put; I completely agree. What actually matters most is the end result after all the various interactions have occurred, i.e. the cumulative sonic effect of our component choices, not the individual effect of one specific interaction.....or, in other words, *the sum* of our chosen compromises, as it were (as everything in audio is a compromise). :)

In that respect, to my ears, the balance of compromises with direct-drive T/Ts (done well, as in the case of the modified SL-1210/1210 or SP10) is more musically 'correct' than anything I've heard *so far* from medium-mass belt-driven T/Ts of any description. High-end, high-mass, string-drive T/Ts are a different ball game. I love the Platine Verdier, Kuzmas and the BLG very much (and other T/Ts of their ilk), for example.

YMMV (and I'm sure it does) ;)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

31-03-2010, 11:05

Now you're talking! So why do belt drivers prefer their choice of compromises? It can't be because none of us have heard a 'proper' DD TT.

I'm not going to answer my own question, I'm Chairing this meeting!

Marco

31-03-2010, 11:16

Hi Chris,

Now you're talking! So why do belt drivers prefer their choice of compromises? It can't be because none of us have heard a 'proper' DD TT.

It's simply because they prefer the difference in musical presentation offered by their chosen belt-driven T/T and/or the sonic effect of its inherent colorations (as lovers of D/D do with their T/T choices).

There is no 'correct' turntable sound, I'm afraid; merely what we individually consider as being more 'accurate' or 'musical'. This is often determined, however, by the quality of our benchmark in terms of our exposure to live (unamplified) music.

I do sometimes laugh when people go on about a piece of hi-fi equipment sounding 'very musical' when they probably haven't been to a concert or attended a live musical performance in their lives! ;)

Marco.

John

31-03-2010, 11:20

Hi Chris,

It's simply because they prefer the difference in musical presentation offered by their chosen belt-driven T/T and/or the sonic effect of its inherent colorations (as lovers of D/D do with their T/T choices).

There is no 'correct' turntable sound, I'm afraid; merely what we individually consider as being more 'accurate' or 'musical'. This is often determined, however, by the quality of our benchmark in terms of our exposure to live (unamplified) music.

I do sometimes laugh when people go on about a piece of hi-fi equipment sounding 'very musical' when they probably haven't been to a concert or attended a live musical performance in their lives! ;)

Marco.
Love it Marco
Being that I used to average 2 to 3 gigs a week for over 15 years I think I can add sounds musical to my comments:)

Themis

31-03-2010, 11:23

Hi Chris,

It's simply because they prefer the difference in musical presentation offered by their chosen belt-driven T/T and/or the sonic effect of its inherent colorations (as lovers of D/D do with their T/T choices).Ahem... The cartridge and phono amp colorations are much bigger, I'm afraid. :ner:

There is no 'correct' turntable sound, I'm afraid; merely what we individually consider as being more 'accurate' or 'musical'. This is often determined, however, by the quality of our benchmark in terms of our exposure to live (unamplified) music.

I do sometimes laugh when people go on about a piece of hi-fi equipment sounding 'very musical' when they probably haven't been to a concert or attended a live musical performance in their lives! ;)

Marco.
Yes, well, the driving method (belt/DD) is secondary here, don't you think ? :eyebrows:

Marco

31-03-2010, 11:39

Ahem... The cartridge and phono amp colorations are much bigger, I'm afraid. :ner:

Lol - nope! Everything on a T/T starts with the drive system, the PSU supplying it, and the plinth. Any 'errors' (fundamental colorations) imposed here cannot be rectified further down the chain by a cartridge or phono amp. Things are therefore 'broken' long before the signal reaches the cartridge or phono stage, which are merely part of what influences the end result. Source first, mon ami! ;)

The 'platform', in effect, from which music emanates from record grooves, must do its job as accurately and effectively as possible, otherwise you're starting off from a position of fatal compromise.

This is precisely why I value what quality D/D's do so well - massively accurate speed stability (resulting in sphincter-tight, stop-start bass notes with no 'flab') even under load (stylus drag, etc). They're less good in other areas (isolation from vibration), but getting the foundation right to start with before one attends to those areas (and the inherent problems can be ameliorated pretty effectively) is for me fundamentally important.

I'm afraid that as soon as I hear typical low or medium-mass belt-drive T/T 'waver' or 'warble', for example on the decay of piano notes (or the rather 'phat' bass often produced in comparison with D/D), it turns me off and I lose interest. Others of course may dislike the element of 'CD-like sterility' often imposed on music with direct-drive T/Ts. As I said, it's simply a matter of choosing your compromises! :)

Marco.

YNWaN

31-03-2010, 11:43

Yes i do believe that '

The big problem with the 3 motor drive of the Voyd and i am a bit sketchy here ' but i spent an afternoon chatting with PQ about the original and he stated some instability problem's with the 3 motor's fighting against each other , which have been addressed with the latest Audionote version (allegedly) .

But based on my own experience with the .5 i had ' it mainly needed yearly adjustment of the motor's otherwise they got very noisy .

Yes, I'm afraid I am not convinced by the multiple motor concept. It definitely brings advantages but it also definitely has disadvantages that I don't believe can be entirely overcome (not to my satisfaction at any rate) and I think there are better ways of achieving the same result.

chris@panteg

31-03-2010, 11:50

I do sometimes laugh when people go on about a piece of hi-fi equipment sounding 'very musical' when they probably haven't been to a concert or attended a live musical performance in their lives! ;)

Marco.

Hi Marco

I don't believe you need to go and see live music ' to get whether something is musical or not ! remember the 1st time a piece of music moved you ?.

For me my 1st musical moment came via an old Roberts radio ' i was about 4 ' i think it was the Beatles and i just fell in love with what i was hearing ' trying desperately to sing along .

In my view Live music and recorded music are entirely different ' seeing live music is important but in the home ' what your hearing is a mostly fragmented ' overdubbed ' processed artificial reverb and so on .

Marco

31-03-2010, 11:55

Yes Chris, you're right to a degree, but quite simply you *need* to know what instruments actually sound like in real life (unamplified) in order to be in a position to judge how accurately a hi-fi system can reproduce them.

I'm quite sure, for example, that a trained pianist would be in the best position to tell you how accurately your system reproduces piano. One can acquire similar experience by exposing ones ears regularly to the sound of real instruments, through attending (unamplified) concerts (jazz clubs are good for this) or pehaps playing a musical instrument yourself.

Having a benchmark from which to judge audio of hearing recorded music only (or largely), through whatever equipment, is simply not enough.

Marco.

pure sound

31-03-2010, 12:23

The potential shortcoming of even the best direct drive designs is that the motive force applied coupled with the chosen platter mass still might not result in a smooth enough delivery of power when the stylus is also applying its variable braking force. Direct drive motors also are not decoupled from the platter they are driving by a suspension system so achieving the quietest possible noise floor as a backdrop to the cartridge's information retrieval is difficult.

That said, a DD motor unit like the SP10 is a relatively compact thing, and in an appropriate plinth it can deliver very good results. However, it isn't perfect and there are areas of its performance where other design approaches can definitely improve on it. Whatever, for 99% of people it would be more than good enough.

With multi motor, suspended, belt driven designs, directly or rim driven designs or indeed high mass thread driven monsters, the end result is as much is about the actual implementation as the technique used. I've heard exceptional results from all 3 types & wouldn't necessarily say that one approach always, always gave better results than another. Some are definitely more practical, domestically acceptable & affordable though.

Incidentally there was a rather nice new Brinkmann DD at the London show, like an exposed Oasis? not sure of the model name.

Marco

31-03-2010, 12:29

With deepest and genuine respect to you all (after getting into a bit of a row with Steve, who hasn't forgiven me yet [continued apologies for getting me SPU's in a twist]}, but the final arbiter in vinyl replay isn't so much the decks IMO, it's the bloody bits of black plastic you play on them...

I know what you're getting at, Dave, and to an extent you're right, but digital also has its problems (quite a few in fact).

However, I go back to what I said earlier... all that ultimately matters is the end result we hear through our speakers after the sonic limitations of our equipment/software choices have been factored into the equation. There is no one system or equipment solution which automatically produces more 'accurate' results than anything else for everyone.

In that respect (and I'm sorry to have to mention this again), *nothing* for me sounds better (or more 'real'), to my ears, than music does on the late 1950s recordings I have on "bloody bits of black plastic", on labels from Capitol, Columbia, EMI Victor and Decca – some are even in mono!

So... :ner:

What made interesting reading on the back cover of one such (mono) album on Capitol from The Nat King Cole Trio was this:

Though the sound in this album is enhanced greatly beyond that of the original 78 R.P.M. masters, the music is all from the original 1945, '46 and '47 recordings. No later vocal or instrumental sound has been added or overdubbed in any way - nor, indeed, has anything been subtracted from these wonderful originals.

The life-like "body" of the music and the absence of those scratchy 78 R.P.M. sounds are due entirely to the skill and patience of producer David Cavanaugh and engineer Carson Taylor, and to their mastery of today's finest electronic equipment.

...which (as the album was produced in 1966) probably means valve microphones, mixing desks, etc, which IMO produce the most musical sounding results possible with audio recordings. I love the close-miked, stripped-down 'rawness' of the sound on this album - you can hear exactly the results of what is described above. And all I can say is RESPECT to those dedicated enough to have made it happen! :cool:

I just wish that standards in recording studios today (in terms of the desire to maintain the faithfulness and musical integrity of original masters) were as high.... :rolleyes:

I'm afraid lunch now calls, and I have some rather nice roast pork (in a Calvados and green peppercorn sauce) to devour!

Laters,
Marco.

P.S 'Dissidents' still doesn't sound as good on CD as it does on vinyl! ;)

Themis

31-03-2010, 13:45

Lol - nope! Everything on a T/T starts with the drive system, the PSU supplying it, and the plinth. Any 'errors' (fundamental colorations) imposed here cannot be rectified further down the chain by a cartridge or phono amp. Things are therefore 'broken' long before the signal reaches the cartridge or phono stage, which are merely part of what influences the end result. Source first, mon ami! ;)

The 'platform', in effect, from which music emanates from record grooves, must do its job as accurately and effectively as possible, otherwise you're starting off from a position of fatal compromise.

This is precisely why I value what quality D/D's do so well - massively accurate speed stability (resulting in sphincter-tight, stop-start bass notes with no 'flab') even under load (stylus drag, etc). They're less good in other areas (isolation from vibration), but getting the foundation right to start with before one attends to those areas (and the inherent problems can be ameliorated pretty effectively) is for me fundamentally important.

I'm afraid that as soon as I hear typical low or medium-mass belt-drive T/T 'waver' or 'warble', for example on the decay of piano notes (or the rather 'phat' bass often produced in comparison with D/D), it turns me off and I lose interest. Others of course may dislike the element of 'CD-like sterility' often imposed on music with direct-drive T/Ts. As I said, it's simply a matter of choosing your compromises! :)

Marco.
I can't disagree, as I don't have much experience on TTs.

Nevertheless, I had exactly the same reaction the other day when comparing my setup to another : "Others of course may dislike the element of 'CD-like sterility' often imposed on music with <put my setup here>". But my setup is not DD... :)

In other words, perhaps there's more than a way into getting to the same result ?

Beobloke

31-03-2010, 13:46

the end result is as much is about the actual implementation as the technique used. I've heard exceptional results from all 3 types & wouldn't necessarily say that one approach always, always gave better results than another. Some are definitely more practical, domestically acceptable & affordable though.

Incidentally there was a rather nice new Brinkmann DD at the London show, like an exposed Oasis? not sure of the model name.

Ah, the joyous sound of a nail being hit on the head!

Given my predelictions for turntables, I am often being asked which the best drive system is, with the asker usually expecting a definitive point in the direction of one type. They almost always look confused when I say that the best type of turntable is a well designed belt, direct or idler drive one, and the worst types are poorly designed belt, direct and idler types. I use a Garrard 301 (idler), I lust after a Technics SP10 (direct) and one of the best decks I have ever heard was the SME 10A (belt) so there - work that out!

Incidentally, the Brinkmann deck at the London Show was the Bardo and I thought it sounded very nice indeed.

Marco

31-03-2010, 14:16

I can't disagree, as I don't have much experience on TTs.

Nevertheless, I had exactly the same reaction the other day when comparing my setup to another : "Others of course may dislike the element of 'CD-like sterility' often imposed on music with <put my setup here>". But my setup is not DD...

In other words, perhaps there's more than a way into getting to the same result ?

It's all subjective, Dimitri. Your definition of "CD-like sterility" might be my idea of 'euphonic and coloured' - in the end it often comes down to semantics :)

For me, the best turntables (no matter the drive system used) will always be those whose designs are based around the most sonically effective engineering principles because, at the end of the day, turntables are mechanical devices.

Too many so-called 'audiophile' T/Ts these days (mainly in the budget to mid-sector of the market) are little else but flimsily-built glorified toys, posing as 'quality turntables'.

At least with the Technics SL-1210/1210, it's affordable and you're starting off with a motor mechanism which represents genuine engineering excellence (the same can be said of the likes of Garrards, Lencos and Thorens TD-124s), and so thus one can from a decent foundation, build towards creating even better sound than is available as standard.

Not many of today’s affordable turntables are born from such advantageous beginnings ;)

Marco.

pure sound

31-03-2010, 14:32

Incidentally, the Brinkmann deck at the London Show was the Bardo and I thought it sounded very nice indeed.

Looks nice too

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/brinkmann_bardo.jpg

Marco

31-03-2010, 14:34

Yes, but how much does it cost? ;)

It's also a bit too black and rather 'sober' looking for my tastes!

Marco.

pure sound

31-03-2010, 14:45

I don't know re the price, (£4900?) but I think it can be upgraded in stages to the more domestic looking Oasis spec with wooden plinth etc. Some people like that black, engineered look & would find other decks too blingy!

Info here

http://www.symmetry-systems.co.uk/Images/pdfs/SYMM-Brinkmann-Bardo-turntable.pdf

By comparison, a fully tricked out 1210 with SME309 fitted costs the best part of £3K and that's without a new platter.

John

31-03-2010, 14:59

I heard Howard's Brinkmann LaGrange a few times; a very good TT and so it should be that price but it never really made me lust after it

Marco

31-03-2010, 14:59

Guy,

If the platter and/or (perhaps) tonearm (or base) were in a nice polished stainless steel or chrome finish, instead of black, it would be spot-on, IMO.

I just like the contrast of different material finishes (a bit like why I think Martin T's new silver-finished Dynavector arm will look better on his black SL-1210 than it did on Dave Cawley's silver SL-1200), and feel that Brinkmann have overdone it somewhat on the black...

I'll check out the link :)

A fully tricked out 1210 with SME309 fitted costs the best part of £3K and that's without a new platter.

That's still a difference of nearly £2K! And you don't need an SME arm (309 or otherwise) to get a 1200/1210 to sing ;)

Marco.

pure sound

31-03-2010, 15:02

IMO. I simply like the contrast of different material finishes, and feel that they're overdone it somewhat on the black...

I think that's generally the Brinkmann house style

Marco

31-03-2010, 15:18

Yep - typical Germans! ;)

It probably looks rather more gorgeous in the flesh than it does in the photo :)

Marco.

pure sound

31-03-2010, 15:25

That's still a difference of nearly £2K! And you don't need an SME arm (309 or otherwise) to get a 1200/1210 to sing ;)

Marco.

With a Jelco arm it'd still be £2300 but that's hardly relevant.

Some lucky people do have £5000 (and often more) to spend on a turntable. While it's doubtless a good deck, the 1210 doesn't represent a ceiling in either price or performance.

I'm just highlighting an interesting & attractive new design which shows evidence of some original thought. It sounded quite promising and it can't have been easy for a small company like Brinkmann to develop it so imho they shoukl be applauded.

Hypnotoad

31-03-2010, 15:26

Regarding vinyl, I have many albums and some sound like they were made in heaven and some made in hell and many in between.

Cd's don't appeal to me that much, however I believe that DVD Audio and now Blue Ray Audio are capable of much more than vinyl.

If they are decently produced but the music I like to listen to is rarely issued on these.

The main thing I noticed when comparing my ProJect Perspective to my SL1200 Mk 2 (both un-modded) was that the Perspective had a 3d sound stage the Technics sounded like a flat wall of sound.

This really came to light when I upgraded my speakers to Polk SDA's.

I have never heard a fully modded Technics so I can't compare.

But in the end it all comes down to if you are happy with what you have, it doesn't matter what others think.

NRG

31-03-2010, 15:45

Hi Neil :youtheman:

That looks very nice ' not seen too many 309's on the SP10 , does it sound as good as it look's ' stupid daft question :doh:.

Is that the WAD phono stage underneath i spy ?

http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif Yes, heavily modded WAD PhonoII, PSUII and my own PREII

Marco

31-03-2010, 15:49

Guy,

With a Jelco arm it'd still be £2300 but that's hardly relevant.

I think it is because, to my ears, when modified to become a £2300 T/T, it outperforms others at that price point and some beyond. For example, I much prefer my modified SL-1210 to the SME10, which costs around £4100, and so I get to spend the £1800 change on music! ;)

Some lucky people do have £5000 (and often more) to spend on a turntable. While it's doubtless a good deck, the 1210 doesn't represent a ceiling in either price or performance.

Lol - I didn't say it did. However, a fully modified one with a top-notch tonearm and cartridge, in my experience, is not far from as good as it gets T/T-wise (in the areas that matter to me most). YMMV. I must listen sometime to a Simon Yorke or Continuum.

A fully modified 1200/1210 is certainly in SP-10 territory, though, which in my book makes it a serious turntable.

Also, don't be under the misunderstanding that I couldn't afford to buy a £5k T/T, if I wanted to. I don't, quite simply because it's not my way of doing things. It's far more fun, IMO, to race-tune/pimp a 'DJ deck', get something just as good for much less money, and end up owning a totally unique T/T in the process! :eyebrows:

I care not a jot about owning 'desirable badges', or 'prestige value'.

I'm just highlighting an interesting & attractive new design which shows evidence of some original thought. It sounded quite promising and it can't have been easy for a small company like Brinkmann to develop it so imho they shoukl be applauded.

Oh don't get me wrong, I completely agree, and I bet it sounds fab. I'm simply saying that you don't need to spend £5k to own a top-notch D/D (or any) turntable, that's all :cool:

Marco.

Marco

31-03-2010, 16:09

Hi Phillip,

The main thing I noticed when comparing my ProJect Perspective to my SL1200 Mk 2 (both un-modded) was that the Perspective had a 3d sound stage the Technics sounded like a flat wall of sound.

This really came to light when I upgraded my speakers to Polk SDA's.

I have never heard a fully modded Technics so I can't compare.

That's a spot-on description of an unmodified SL-1200. Trust me, the "flat wall of sound" goes when the PSU is upgraded - or to be more specific, when the old PSU (causing a sonically degrading magnetic field and eddy current effects, sucking the life out of the cartridge performing its duty above it) has been removed from underneath the platter! ;)

But in the end it all comes down to if you are happy with what you have, it doesn't matter what others think.

Indeed! :cool:

Marco.

pure sound

31-03-2010, 16:30

Guy,

I think it is because, to my ears, when modified to become a £2300 T/T, it outperforms others at its price point and some beyond. For example, I much prefer my modified SL-1210 to the SME10, which costs around £4100, and so I get to spend the £1800 change on music! ;)

Lol - I didn't say it did. However, a fully modified one with a top-notch tonearm and cartridge, in my experience, is not far from as good as it gets T/T-wise (in the areas that matter to me most). YMMV. I must sometime listen to a Simon Yorke or Continuum.

A fully modified 1200/1210 is certainly in SP-10 territory, though, which in my book makes it a serious turntable.

Also, don't be under the misunderstanding that I couldn't afford to buy a £5k T/T if I wanted to. I don't quite simply because it's not my way of doing things - far more fun, IMO, to 'race-tune'/pimp a 'DJ deck', end up with something as good for much less money, and own something totally unique! :eyebrows:

Oh don't get me wrong, I completely agree, and I bet it sounds fab. I'm simply saying that you don't need to spend £5k to own a top-notch D/D (or any) turntable, that's all :cool:

Marco.

Tell me about it. My double layer slate plinthed SP10 with refurbished Alphason arm cost me £420!

With regard to other decks at the upgraded 1210's price, I'd venture that something like a Kuzma Stabi S would give it a run for its money. Entirely different approach but powerful & stable just the same. It'd certainly be an interesting comparison.

Not sure about the Simon Yorkes. I've heard a couple (one admittedly in less than ideal circumstances) but didn't 'get' them at all.

I suppose as far as 'top notch' DD's are concerned we'd need to be comparing with the SP10 Mk3, The Denon DP100, the Pioneer P3a and perhaps the Grand Prix Monaco but all of those are seriously expensive unfortunately.

Marco

31-03-2010, 16:41

Tell me about it. My double layer slate plinthed SP10 with refurbished Alphason arm cost me £420!

:lolsign: I was talking about brand new!

With regard to other decks at the upgraded 1210's price, I'd venture that something like a Kuzma Stabi S would give it a run for its money. Entirely different approach but powerful & stable just the same. It'd certainly be an interesting comparison.

Yes I'd go with that - I do rate the Kuzmas :)

Not sure about the Simon Yorkes. I've heard a couple (one admittedly in less than ideal circumstances) but didn't 'get' them at all.

I've not heard one, but I love the build quality and styling in general. Apparently, they're very 'neutral' sounding and impose little of their own character on the sound, which superficially sounds like my kind of thing.

I suppose as far as 'top notch' DD's are concerned we'd need to be comparing with the SP10 Mk3, The Denon DP100, the Pioneer P3a and perhaps the Grand Prix Monaco but all of those are seriously expensive unfortunately.

I'd *LOVE* to be part of something like that and learn from the experience!

I suspect that the 'cognoscenti' who (rightly) regard those T/Ts as amongst the best ever made, would be in for a shock at just how close a fully modified SL-1200/1210 would get, providing of course that all the T/Ts were fitted with the same arm and cartridge, and evaluated in the same test system :cool:

Marco.

John

31-03-2010, 17:00

I like the idea of pimped TT and for me there are several routes
So we have 1210 with mods costing about £2300 out performing a SME10
A 401 approx £1800 to 2000 to get up and fully running
A lenco perhaps £1500 to 1750 but not quite as good as the 401 to my ears
Trans Fi Salvation about £1750 but no need to pimp This out performed a slate 401 with the same arm and Cartridge so a good few options if you willing to take the road less travelled

Marco

31-03-2010, 17:02

I'd like to hear the Salvation sometime, John - I like the ideas behind it :)

Marco.

YNWaN

31-03-2010, 17:05

Marco, you won't like my designs much then as they very much follow the kind of restrained (black) aesthetic Brinkmann adhere to (definitely no chrome) - mine has a bit more CF to it though.

John

31-03-2010, 17:05

Marco I hope you get to Clive sometime to hear and compare the Salvation with the 1210 I do not expect you to change you mind around the 1210 but be really good to hear your views around what I consider to be a future classic

Marco

31-03-2010, 17:11

Hi Mark,

Marco, you won't like my designs much then as they very much follow the kind of restrained (black) aesthetic Brinkmann adhere to (definitely no chrome) - mine has a bit more CF to it though.

Oh I wouldn't be so sure - I'm very open-minded about these things. Got any pics? :)

Marco.

John

31-03-2010, 18:01

Hi Mark
I would also like to see some pics and I like black

Tea24

31-03-2010, 20:05

OK people! Here's my two pence worth (again). I don't care how the b****y thing is driven as long as it has(as Marco said) "sphincter like speed precision". My NA Interspace Junior has as near as possible that, but only with a good PSU (in my case the Pro-ject speedbox).
I check it with the KAB Speedstrobe which (apparently) can measure to 0.03% accuracy (presumably if you have infinitely variable speed control, which the Speedbox does not, being moved in 'notches'; the NA speed control is probably better but twice the price). I have measured mine at 33 1/3 rpm with the Speedbox to 0.15% accuracy. Broadcast accuracy is 0.3%, so that's good enough for me!

It is interesting though that many/most good belt drive heavy mass TT's (SME & NA spring to mind) have quartz controlled SPUs & for me (& very much IMHO) all belt driven TTs need this, but with it can be just as good as DD TTs & perhaps without some of the engineering complications.

After that we/you can move on to cartridges, pre-amps, amps etc which all add there halfpenny's worth!

Marco

31-03-2010, 20:17

After that we/you can move on to cartridges, pre-amps, amps etc which all add there halfpenny's worth!

Indeed, Julian - and *only* then is it relevant! ;)

Marco.

YNWaN

31-03-2010, 22:28

Hi Mark,

Oh I wouldn't be so sure - I'm very open-minded about these things. Got any pics? :)

Marco.

Sorry Marco and John, not outside of the computer I'm afraid - and even then, not for public consumption.

Machining large billets of aluminium is far from cheap unfortunately.

_______________________

I've heard Clive's 'Salvation' deck quite a few times - and very interesting it has been too.

Marco

31-03-2010, 22:33

You could PM me a sneaky pic, with the understanding it will go nowhere ;)

Marco.

Marco

31-03-2010, 23:02

Meanwhile, this is an example of what I consider as a good looking modern T/T:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3281/dpspq.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/dpspq.jpg/)

It's still essentially 'black', but there is a nice mixture of materials used, with contrasting finishes complimenting the 'clean lines' of the T/T's overall aesthetics :)

For me, the Brinkmann looks too 'heavy', and it's because the black dominates too much.

I also love the sophisticated and 'organic' look of the Thorens TD550 and its nicely contrasting aesthetic (if that type of polished finish were on the Brinkmann platter, the whole T/T would look much better, IMO):

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9002/1263585442.jpg (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/1263585442.jpg/)

And this is one of the nicest SP10s I've seen (fitted with my absolute favourite tonearm - I'd love to put a 9" version on the 1210):

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6274/47813340.png (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/47813340.png/)

Drool.... :eek:

Marco.

Hypnotoad

01-04-2010, 02:54

My Perspective.

http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww297/Hypnotoady_photos/007.jpg

John

01-04-2010, 04:16

Sorry Marco and John, not outside of the computer I'm afraid - and even then, not for public consumption.

Machining large billets of aluminium is far from cheap unfortunately.

_______________________

I've heard Clive's 'Salvation' deck quite a few times - and very interesting it has been too.

No worries

John

01-04-2010, 06:32

I've heard Clive's 'Salvation' deck quite a few times - and very interesting it has been too.

Be interesting to hear your thoughts good bad or indifferent

chris@panteg

01-04-2010, 14:30

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/1247408224_annalog_w390_h390gif.jpg

Any thoughts on this ' the Anna Log , bit of a beast ' never heard or seen one ?

Ammonite Audio

01-04-2010, 14:42

OK people! Here's my two pence worth (again). I don't care how the b****y thing is driven as long as it has(as Marco said) "sphincter like speed precision". .............

The other night I went round to a mate's house and heard his Voyd Reference. Now that really has "sphincter like speed precision" and astonishing musical drive and agility too. Apparently the platter starts and stops more quickly than an SP10. Occasional exposure to such things does help me to keep things in perspective. Its forthcoming new owner is a lucky chap indeed.

chris@panteg

01-04-2010, 14:47

Would that be Pete ' per chance .

Was it in a high Gloss rosewood finish :)

I found the Audionote version

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/voydreference.jpg

pure sound

01-04-2010, 15:09

rubber band powered 'n all!

chris@panteg

01-04-2010, 16:06

On Balance

Not a bad way to spin ye olde Vinyl , 3 motors ' a rubber band and all ;)

YNWaN

01-04-2010, 18:46

Be interesting to hear your thoughts good bad or indifferent

I don't think I could really post anything of value on the matter - all comparisons were made in the context of Clive's system, which is very different to my own - I do prefer it to his previous deck (which I never much liked). I believe he has made good progress with regard to the drive system though.

Rare Bird

01-04-2010, 18:52

Meanwhile, this is an example of what I consider as a good looking modern T/T:

I also love the sophisticated and 'organic' look of the Thorens TD550 and its nicely contrasting aesthetic (if that type of polished finish were on the Brinkmann platter, the whole T/T would look much better, IMO):

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9002/1263585442.jpg (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/1263585442.jpg/)

Aye thats thorens was on my drool list from ages till i got to realising it will never happen. All them shiney bit :eyebrows:..I would change some things about it tho

Ammonite Audio

01-04-2010, 19:15

Would that be Pete ' per chance .

Was it in a high Gloss rosewood finish :)

I found the Audionote version

The Voyd has not yet moved on to Pete, but it is the very same deeply impressive 'table. It has the same Audio Note power supply as in your picture, too.

Daydreaming is a dangerous business, but I did wonder what a polycarbonate platter a la Voyd (not to mention the Audio Note TT3 either) would be like on the Technics? I'm not about to find out - the Mike New bearing is the last big thing that I'm doing to my Technics:rolleyes:

Ali Tait

01-04-2010, 19:31

alfie2902

01-04-2010, 19:55

So what's that arm Marco? Just interested,I no nuffin bout all this stuff.

It's a Thomas Schick tone arm Ali :stalks::eek:

http://www.thomas-schick.com/Audiomain.htm

& the plinth is £3000+ Oswaldsmillaudio :eek:

http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/

Ali Tait

01-04-2010, 21:12

Ah,that'll be 3000+ for a nicely finished slate plinth that could be done by a local stone company for a few hundred quid then,or is it some kind of magic slate? :lol:

Scuse my cynical head!

alfie2902

01-04-2010, 21:30

Very nicely designed plinth & the adjustable armboard seems a great idea but at that money it must be magic slate or lots of fairy dust!

Tonearms not cheap either but sounds & looks great! Very nice in 12" with an SPU :)

I can dream :stalks:

Ali Tait

01-04-2010, 21:38

Well indeed yes,but paying very very silly money for a nicely finished piece of stone seems a bit silly to me,but hey,YMMV.

alfie2902

01-04-2010, 23:04

Well indeed yes,but paying very very silly money for a nicely finished piece of stone seems a bit silly to me,but hey,YMMV.

Only dreaming of the Schick tonearm Ali, the plinth as you say could be made for far far less than that! Now where do I get the fairy dust from :)

YNWaN

02-04-2010, 08:28

To be honest, I can't see the appeal of the arm at all.

Primalsea

02-04-2010, 09:14

I think that any deck that is designed and built well will sound good. They all sound a bit different but good all the same. I have never heard a techie in a hifi environment so cant comment on them but I doubt that they are bad. The main issue seems to be that our perception gets skewed by what we read on the web and in the hifi press. When you speak to people who know from real experience who don't have a motive to bullshit you you get a whole new story.

What I can say is that I don't get any rumble on my 401 with the volume right up. Loads of roar which is, of course understandable; you're dragging a bit of rock over some vinyl!
Also I think that many decks start off good but degrade quickly as they are poorly designed and made. Some decks and arms juts keep on working like the day they were new for ever and ever, this is always a sign of quality.

In regards to Techies having 1st class motors has anyone looked at Vertsax. Some of their decks motors have 3 times the torque of a techie and very advanced speed control.

Ammonite Audio

02-04-2010, 10:28

This link to an old thread, highlighted by Jonners on another thread made interesting reading: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2444

In it, I stated that I would not be spending more money on my Technics after a new PSU, except maybe the motor dynamics mod. How wrong was I? Since then, I have lavished a further £1000 or so on the deck (Jelco arm, Mike New bearing, mats, headshells various etc), not including things like Stillpoints supports that I had here already. If I was to revisit myself a year ago, would I tell myself not to be so silly?

To be completely honest, I'm not at all sure. I know that I should have lavished a bit more cash on the Kenwood KD-770D, which I believe has an underlying pedigree that is worth developing, perhaps more so than the Technics, although they are very different beasts. A significant part of me is currently embarrassed at my current investment in the Technics. Perhaps I am just in an introspective mood today!

DSJR

02-04-2010, 10:53

To be honest, I can't see the appeal of the arm at all.

It's very simple in the extreme and perhaps the materials used in its construction have an appeal too? I rather like the simplicity of it and hope it performs well too - no reason why it shouldn't ?

YNWaN

02-04-2010, 10:57

no reason why it shouldn't ?

Hmm... well I can think of some (hypothetically) - but that's another story.

DSJR

02-04-2010, 11:01

Seriously Mark, I'd like to know what you think.

There's plenty to learn from someone who gets off his butt and makes things for himself and since it's doubtful that we'll meet in the near future.....

[edit] - P.S. The bearing housing does look a bit too much like a Linn Basik LVV though, although there's a possibility that arm resonances don't matter much at that end of a 12" arm..:)

Marco

02-04-2010, 11:11

To be honest, I can't see the appeal of the arm at all.

Lol... Mark, ye of no taste, tut, tut! :eyebrows: ;)

Quite simply, it's tailor-made for those of us who love using vintage cartridges, such as Denon DL-103s, SPUs, M3Ds, Lumières (as shown in the photo I posted - that big blue thing on the end of the arm), and such like. I know you're not into this though, which is fine.

Also, and this boils down to one's individual tastes, it looks fabulous in its elegant simplicity and is extremely well built. Basically, it ably facilitates the 'high-mass' route of reproducing vinyl some people, such as me, favour :)

Marco.

pure sound

02-04-2010, 11:18

It's simply a fairly well executed modern take on the old Ortofon RM309 (which sell for considerably more) The Ortofon, and its contemporary SME 3012 are still capable of giving very enjoyable (non hifi sounding) results when partnered with sympathetic low compliance cartridges. (whatever the Linn indoctrinated rigidity freaks might have you believe!) ;)

Marco

02-04-2010, 11:42

Indeed, Guy! I'd much rather use that sort of stuff than most modern rubbish ;)

I just prefer the type of sound they give.... The beautifully rich 'vintage tone' and sense of realism one gets with the properly executed use of classic tonearms and cartridges is extremely addictive :)

Here's a nicer picture of the Lumière (a veritable classic, which ticks all the right boxes for me):

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/513/lumiere2.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/lumiere2.jpg/)

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2332/lumierecartridge.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/lumierecartridge.jpg/)

And, equally as classic, a Pierre Clement:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4913/pierreclementeb251.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/i/pierreclementeb251.jpg/)

Both of those would sound amazing on the end of the Schick arm. That's what an arm like that is all about.

Aside from anything else, cartridges such as the above just look so much more interesting than most modern designs - I *adore* their quirkiness and individuality, much in the same way as I do with classic cars over the (largely) boring looking, 'samey' CAD-borne monstrosities, devoid of 'soul', made nowadays....

A case in point (a gorgeous Corvette):

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9753/corvette.png (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/corvette.png/)

Now that is one cool set of wheels! :eek: The Chevvy trucks in the background aren't too shabby either.... They're cool in a different way.

As is this Maserati:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5304/maserati3500gti.png (http://img6.imageshack.us/i/maserati3500gti.png/)

Classics rule (in most things in life, not just hi-fi)!!!

Marco.

DSJR

02-04-2010, 12:32

Head vs heart eh Marco?

It seems to be only a man thing though.

Talking about cars, our neighbour has just acquired a pretty new Audi TT and has spent the best part of the morning cleaning thre damned thing, not that it would ever be dirty in the first place. I though of bringing our jelopy Focus round the front and asking him to clean that (I desperately need to clean out all the door shuts and awkward little places but frankly can't be a*sed..

Ammonite Audio

02-04-2010, 12:40

This is getting really off-topic, but I have always wanted one of these:

http://www.ritzsite.nl/Fiat_Dino/1971_Fiat_Dino_2400_coupe.JPG

Snoopdog

02-04-2010, 12:41

Marco

02-04-2010, 12:43

Lol - aye, but what else could you expect to pull at your age! :lol: :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

Marco

02-04-2010, 12:48

Head vs heart eh Marco?

I just value free-thinking, passion and individuality in design - in all things in life, Dave, not just hi-fi.

We've lost so much of that nowadays in our computer-driven disposable society, which is littered with 'me too' products that pander to the market forces of commercialism.

That is not my type of world.

Marco.

Marco

02-04-2010, 12:51

This is getting really off-topic, but I have always wanted one of these:

http://www.ritzsite.nl/Fiat_Dino/1971_Fiat_Dino_2400_coupe.JPG

1971 Fiat Dino - very nice! :)

Marco.

Snoopdog

02-04-2010, 12:57

I just value free-thinking, passion and individuality in design - in all things in life, Dave, not just hi-fi.

We've lost so much of that nowadays in our computer-driven disposable society, which is littered with 'me too' products that pander to the market forces of commercialism.

That is not my type of world.

Marco.

Uncanny! As I was reading your post, the strains of Elgar's 'Nimrod' were playing on the hi fi downstairs and it just seemed to suit the moment!

Marco

02-04-2010, 13:05

Lovely....

And what food and wine would allow us to savour this moment in all its nostalgic beauty, I wonder... Prawn cocktail, followed by chicken in a basket, or perhaps some beef Consommé and duck a l'orange, washed down with the finest Blue Nun! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Snoopdog

02-04-2010, 13:08

Marco

02-04-2010, 13:14

Now yer talkin! As long as there's some cheese and pineapple on sticks for canapés :eyebrows:

Marco.

Ammonite Audio

02-04-2010, 14:32

1971 Fiat Dino - very nice! :)

Marco.

It has to be the 2.4 litre version, though.

Marco

02-04-2010, 16:17

Indeed - anything less would make one merely an incontinent ladyboy...

Back to cartridges, and a question for our EMT experts: what's the difference (in terms of generator or stylus type used) between this JSD5:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6466/emtjsd5.jpg (http://img263.imageshack.us/i/emtjsd5.jpg/)

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/9389/jsd5250.jpg (http://img63.imageshack.us/i/jsd5250.jpg/)

...and this TSD-15:

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/1504/emt20tsd15.gif (http://img532.imageshack.us/i/emt20tsd15.gif/)

Any? Or are they just the same thing in a different body-shell?

I'm curious because I'm in the market for an EMT cartridge, but not sure which model to go for :cool:

Marco.

Beobloke

02-04-2010, 22:48

In regards to Techies having 1st class motors has anyone looked at Vertsax. Some of their decks motors have 3 times the torque of a techie and very advanced speed control.

Interesting point. I have a standard SL1210 mk2 and a Vestax PDX-A1mk2 and I think the Vestax sounds better. I haven't tried any mods on it but as I've tried to sell the damn thing twice now with no success I'm thinking spot of furtling might be in order!

Oh yes, and what's with all these flippin' foreign hunks of motoring junk in this thread?! A Jensen Interceptor - now that's a properly gorgeous car!;)

Marco

02-04-2010, 22:57

Or perhaps one of these beauties, Adam:

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/600/astonmartin.png (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/astonmartin.png/)

Quality!!

Regarding the Vestax, it might sound great with some judicious fettling, so give it a go! :)

Marco.

DSJR

03-04-2010, 08:49

The Vinyl Adventure

03-04-2010, 09:31

I dunno, these "big" boys in need of phalic imagery to bolster their self esteem.

Some of us drive small insignificant cars in inverse proportion to our *********

Oh hell, it's not April 1st any more :D

my dream car

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45448000/jpg/_45448207_car_pa466.jpg

The Vinyl Adventure

03-04-2010, 09:35

actually thats a lie...
id quite like one of these

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/SC06_1982_Aston_Martin_V8_Vantage_02.jpg

i wouldnt turn down the very 90's looking "600" version either

http://www.veafotoaqui.com/images_CARROS/0000_AstonMartinV8Vantage600LeMans_6.jpg

Themis

03-04-2010, 09:36

my dream car

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45448000/jpg/_45448207_car_pa466.jpg

:lolsign:

The Vinyl Adventure

03-04-2010, 09:38

my more realistic car of choice would be something like this though
you gotta love an 80's classic!
http://automobilesdeluxe.tv/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/saab-900.jpg

The Vinyl Adventure

03-04-2010, 09:42

me and hannah have talked a few times about owning a collection of dodgy cars from the 80's... i feel another thread coming on ... i dont wanna ruin this one any more

Themis

03-04-2010, 09:46

I prefer a Cadillac Convertible (a '70, for instance)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2452/3550934272_3a46df382b.jpg

The Vinyl Adventure

03-04-2010, 09:56

I prefer a Cadillac Convertible (a '70, for instance)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2452/3550934272_3a46df382b.jpg

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=113663#post113663

Marco

03-04-2010, 10:02

Rare Bird

03-04-2010, 10:56

1971 Fiat Dino - very nice! :)

Marco.

If i'd got the money this would be for me, i'd probably learn to drive then

http://www.hchg.co.uk/vehicles/86/1959-aston-martin-db4

Marco

03-04-2010, 11:03

Very nice, Andre.... I can just see you sitting there in a tweed suit driving that! :eyebrows:

What music would be playing on the stereo, I wonder (8-track of course!)?

Marco.

Rare Bird

03-04-2010, 11:43

Very nice, Andre.... I can just see you sitting there in a tweed suit driving that! :eyebrows:

What music would be playing on the stereo, I wonder (8-track of course!)?

Marco.

The 8 Track would be in this mi 2nd choice

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1970-1979/1974-Jensen-Interceptor-Mk-III-Saloon-maroon-fa-lr.jpg

;)

Marco

03-04-2010, 11:45

I'm lovin' it, dude! But show the pics, not the links ;)

Marco.

Hypnotoad

03-04-2010, 13:16

Haha.... I love it - what an outrageous looking, totally over the top, set of wheels; it could only be American! :lol:

All we need are some bad-ass ganja-smoking Jamaican gangstas sat inside looking like they're about to bust a cap in someone's ass.... I can hear some Fun Lovin' Criminals playing too! :eyebrows:

Marco.

I'll show you over the top, this is the ultimate gas guzzling show mobile here at the moment.:ner:

http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww297/Hypnotoady_photos/Giovanna_Bragg_Hummer_3.jpg

chris@panteg

03-04-2010, 13:18

Serious Bling ' is it for sale , any previous murderer's .

Macca

03-04-2010, 14:38

I'll show you over the top, this is the ultimate gas guzzling show mobile here at the moment.:ner:

http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww297/Hypnotoady_photos/Giovanna_Bragg_Hummer_3.jpg

In the Sopranos Chris Multisanti swaps his Range Rover for one of these. Most unrealistic storeyline ever:)

Marco

03-04-2010, 14:50

Macca

03-04-2010, 14:57

Ah, the Sopranos.... Probably one of my favourite programmes - ever!

I wonder if they'll bring out another series to see if Tony really did get shot and whether or not he dies... The ending of the last series was rather bizarre to say the least!

Marco.

There's no 'probably' as far as I'm concerned. :) Actually now I think about it I think his Range Rover gets stolen when he goes to the Hood to score a little smack and gets mugged by the homeboys who don't know who he's with.

I've seen an explination for the ending somewhere - There is an earlier scene in which Tony and Bobby Baccalat are discussing what it might be like to get whacked and Bobby says he doesn't think it is too bad as you won't know it's coming and everything will just go black. Hence the ending. But I don't have the last season on DVD so I'm not as familiar with it as with the rest of the seasons - but seems like a reasonable explaination to me.

Marco

03-04-2010, 15:06

Indeed it does... Missed that bit. Still, I think they've left it open for possibly another series :)

Marco.

Macca

03-04-2010, 15:14

Indeed it does... Missed that bit. Still, I think they've left it open for possibly another series :)

Marco.

Yes I was hoping Madmen would flop so Chase would have to go back to the Sopranos to earn a crust. Sadly, no. I don't think we'll get any more, Marco, but as you say they have left it open. They could do a spin-off that just follows Paulie Walnuts around - I'd watch it!:lolsign:

chris@panteg

05-04-2010, 20:31

Back to the thread

How about one of these beauty's , heard them a few times ' a mighty fine deck .

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/acutus23.jpg

MartinT

05-04-2010, 21:27

Ah, the Sopranos.... Probably one of my favourite programmes - ever!

Tricky decision between that and West Wing. Both mourned.

YNWaN

06-04-2010, 07:49

DSJR

06-04-2010, 09:46

Well, you could have steered it back on track, so to speak....... ;)

YNWaN

06-04-2010, 10:26

Marco

06-04-2010, 10:37

Lol! Don't hold back!! :lol:

You're entitled to your opinion, Mark (which is no doubt based on considerable experience), but I would disagree with most of your views :)

Perhaps I should come to Andrew's forthcoming T/T bake-off and bring my über-modded 1210 (which will probably have the platter and new PSU upgrades done before then) for others and you to scrutinise?

You will then either be provided with evidence which confirms your views (in terms of tonearms) or not. I'm very open-minded about these things and would hope to learn from the experience, as indeed others may, too....

Marco.

Marco

06-04-2010, 11:36

I've just volunteered to bring my T/T to Andrew's bake-off, so this will be interesting! :)

Marco.

YNWaN

06-04-2010, 11:53

Jolly good - but it won't alter my views with regard to arms Marco (because it will be attached to your deck and no identical arm - but without the design elements I criticise - will be available). I'm not saying an arm can't work with all the negative elements I listed; because obviously it can. I'm saying that, all things being equal, an arm would perform better without them.

Your arm has the bearings further apart and a pre-load is applied - it has bias adjustment and is lower in mass and the counterweight is closer to the bearing. In fact, the only thing that is the same as the arm my criticisms applied to is that it has an SME headshell mount (which I still think it would sound better without - as do SME).

I'm looking forward to hearing the deck though :)

I would disagree with most of your views :)

Yes, no doubt you would (I didn't expect otherwise) - I would, most probably, disagree with most of yours :)

pure sound

06-04-2010, 12:09

Will you be taking any kind of 'Work in Progress' along Mark?

YNWaN

06-04-2010, 13:20

Hmm...probably not - 'muddied waters' and all that.

pure sound

06-04-2010, 14:02

I'd have thought anything you might take would be sufficiently different (conceptually) to the other decks there for little in the way of water muddying to occur. Indeed, I'd have been interested to read/download how it compared alongside Andrew's deck, a Voyd or perhaps Marco's 1210.

Oh well, something to look forward to another time.

DSJR

06-04-2010, 14:45

Well in that case (and this is gonna sound very negative):

I don't rate the old SME headshell bayonet fitting at all (except in terms of convenience).

A lot is said about the bearings but nothing about the pre-load applied. If none is used then they are loose.

I'm not a fan of ball races in arm design full stop. The negative attributes given to alternative methods on the website are nonsense.

The vertical axis bearings are too close together.

The counterweight is too long; the mass should be concentrated closer to the bearing.

I don't think high mass is a desirable quality in a tonearm.

There is no provision for bias adjustment.

I don't like the silver and gold theme.

Thanks for the considered reply. I may be able to answer in part...

The SME headshell style of fixing always introduces a weakness in arm resonances at lower mid frequences, but using massive headshells with some cartridges does seem to minimise the audible effects. Arms like the Ittok and Alphason HR100S didn't become so popular for nothing, although the Ittok moved the resonances into the treble, where it benefitted Karma's and suchlike, as well as the 1980's LP12....

I agree about pre-load. I think the SME M2 bearings are and gravity can aid the loading on the pillar shaft type horizontal races as seen in many arms.

I can't comment on the vertical axis bearings, but despite the length of arm-tube, I'd have preferred it if the axis was offset like the headshell as in the ittok and Jelco 750 for example.

High mass, high inertia is regarded as a plus point in long arms such as the Schik, the long thin counterweight probably being a plus point as well as a nod to the fifties (:)). A mate who was well into infra-bass added mass to his Kenwood arm with ADC XLM, taking the resonance down to 3 - 4 Hz. He claimed it was better (after modifying his preamp so it went down that far), but his LP's lacked warps and his deck lacked springs... My Dual 701, for all its faults, has a springy tuned counterweight which minimises the arm-cart resonance at 10Hz or so.

12" arms aren't supposed to need bias correction, although I'd dispute this in absolute terms.

Personally, I don't mind the brass finish, but then, when I had a "Glasgow Black" Ittok, I lusted after the silver one, yet missed it when it went..... :scratch:

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth (if that)....