Repair, leave as is or replace Valdus centre speaker?

[Smoking Joe]

As part of my home theatre setup I have a Wharfedale Valdus Centre speaker. (back in the day they didn't look pretty but what was saved on looks was spent on sound as it was a pretty good centre for the money.) It has served me well for over 20 years now. I moved house last year and in the move the rubber surround on one of the speakers got damaged. Basically it has become sticky and in the move the grille got pressed against it. So when I removed the grille to see what the sticky stuff was, it pulled a hole in the rubber surround.

I've still be using it for the last 10 months or so and it doesn't seem to have affected the sound. But the anal part of me knows that there is a "non-perfect" driver behind the grille..... To get a new driver from Wharfedale would be about 60 quid to me. Equivalent shielded ones on eBay/ Amazon work out to be about the same cost. And the speaker cost me about 130 over 20 years ago. So then I said for that money I may as well upgrade it...….and I was about to buy a Dali Zensor centre to match my main stereo speakers, but with my room I can't really fit a bigger (deeper) centre speaker...

So leave it alone?
Replace the driver?
Or are there better small centres out there?

(I know that the front 3 should be the same make/ model for tonal balance, but to be honest, I've never really found an issue for movies with them not matching)

Any opinions? Suggestions?

[Macca]

Have you tried doing without the centre speaker? De-select it on your amplifier and it will split the centre channel signal between the two main front speakers. I prefer this to using a separate centre as do a number of people.


If your not keen on that I'd agree replacing the driver is not cost effective. Trouble is decent centre speakers tend to be pricey for no real reason. Even used ones. But if you can find another Valdus centre on eBay or somewhere it shouldn't cost more than fifty quid.


Agree that there's no need to have matching speakers all round unless you are using the system for multi channel music as well as films. Even then the benefit is slight unless the mis-match is extreme.

[Beobloke]

Why don’t you replace the surround? Most places that sell foam surrounds also sell rubber ones.

[narabdela]

Have you tried doing without the centre speaker? De-select it on your amplifier and it will split the centre channel signal between the two main front speakers. I prefer this to using a separate centre as do a number of people.




This /\ :thumbsup:

[Smoking Joe]

Good suggestions on both points. I never thought of replacing the surround or just looking for a complete second hand Valdus..
I'll also try the system set to just 4 speakers and see how it sounds. Cheers.

[Marco]

I'm still in the camp of QUALITY centre-speakers making a significant difference. Unfortunately Joe, a Valdus doesn't really qualify as such. I had one once. It's ok. but very much at the budget end of things.

Therefore, if you can't afford to spend more, I'd stick to the advice you've been given. However, what front speakers are you using? I've got vintage Celestion 15XRs, as fronts, and simply a single one of those performing the role of a centre speaker, which I've also re-capped along with the fronts.

It works a treat (really adding depth and clarity to vocals and explosive effects), and only cost £30! Good vintage speakers can be the way to go in a home-cinema system, as if you shop around they can be much cheaper than modern options. Plus, the less 'in yer face' voicing/sonic presentation is arguably more suited to today's movie soundtracks:cool:

Marco.

[Smoking Joe]

I'm still in the camp of QUALITY centre-speakers making a significant difference. Unfortunately Joe, a Valdus doesn't really qualify as such. I had one once. It's ok. but very much at the budget end of things.

Therefore, if you can't afford to spend more, I'd stick to the advice you've been given. However, what front speakers are you using? I've got vintage Celestion 15XRs, as fronts, and simply a single one of those performing the role of a centre speaker, which I've also re-capped along with the fronts.

It works a treat (really adding depth and clarity to vocals and explosive effects), and only cost £30! Good vintage speakers can be the way to go in a home-cinema system, as if you shop around they can be much cheaper than modern options. Plus, the less 'in yer face' voicing/sonic presentation is arguably more suited to today's movie soundtracks:cool:

Marco.

Oh yes I know it is definitely budget even when new. But it was best of the crop at that price range. And it has served me well. My mains are Dali Zensor 5s. I was about to buy a Dali Zensor Vokal to replace the Valdus, but when I measured up, I simply don't have the room to fit a centre that deep. So the Valdus was kept. I can go wider and higher, but just not deeper.....


I have fairly new Wharfedale Diamond 9s in a box in the attic, I could use one of them. But is the issue of shielding around amps and telly no longer an issue?

Or else I will look for some better class of older speaker but that fits.

[walpurgis]

Magnet shielding is not an issue with modern televisions. It was with old CRT screens, where the internal mask could be affected.

As for centre speakers, some might say they just add information for image placement and all that is required for this is the directional information in higher frequencies, not full range audio. Many years ago, there was a Hafler circuit enabling a tweeter only to be used centrally between two stereo speakers to 'fill the gap' as it were. This worked, I tried it. Unfortunately, it also adulterated the true stereo image separation, as does any centre speaker.

[Marco]

Regardless, as movie soundtracks are artificially created, good ones in my experience can definitely add something beneficial to the overall experience, plus add an extra dimension to the reproduction of 5.1 music Blurays/DVDs.

I wouldn't be without my centre speaker:)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

I suppose there is another way of looking at this. You could have one huge central speaker covering the full audio bandwidth and two small speakers, one each side. Bass is said by some to provide little directional information (not sure I agree mind you), so it could emanate from the middle, whilst the directional cues could come from each small side speaker.

[Marco]

I have fairly new Wharfedale Diamond 9s in a box in the attic, I could use one of them. But is the issue of shielding around amps and telly no longer an issue?

Or else I will look for some better class of older speaker but that fits.

Geoff's already answered the shielding issue. I'd defo give the Diamonds a go and see what you think.

What I've found though is that correct placement of speakers is even more crucial in an AV set-up, than a 2-channel one, simply because you've got more of them to consider (and integrate correctly). In that respect, distance (to the listening position) and levels are also crucial. You really need to run things through a good home-cinema amp, and use a calibration mic, to get all that right.

The other thing I've found, if you really want to get everything sounding as seamless as possible (achieve sonic synergy), then it's best to use speakers all from the one manufacturer, as they'll have been 'voiced' the same way, and so the end result you hear will be more cohesive, musically and otherwise.

That's also one way of successfully integrating a centre speaker (in my case it's identical to the fronts), so that its output blends correctly into the mix, without adversely drawing attention to itself.

Get it all right, however, and the results can be sublime!:cool:

Marco.

[Macca]

Regardless, as movie soundtracks are artificially created, good ones in my experience can definitely add something beneficial to the overall experience, plus add an extra dimension to the reproduction of 5.1 music Blurays/DVDs.

I wouldn't be without my centre speaker:)

Marco.

Stereo music is artificially created too and you don't use a centre speaker for that.

[Marco]

Sure, and nor would I, as no doubt it would be worse. However, that's not the case, to my ears, with movies. For me, everything needs to be assessed in context, on an individual basis.

You've heard my home-cinema system. I think it works pretty well and isn't being held back by the centre speaker:)

Marco.

[Macca]

No it's not being held back but I used centre speakers for many years before concluding that at best it was pointless and at worst it was problematical.

We've all heard how two stereo speakers can paint a phantom centre image that is completely convincing, why Is it when we come to films we need an extra one in the middle? I've asked this question before and no-one has ever given a convincing answer.

[Marco]

No it's not being held back...


So, the centre speaker can't be doing anything wrong, can it?;)


We've all heard how two stereo speakers can paint a phantom centre image that is completely convincing, why Is it when we come to films we need an extra one in the middle?

Because when done right, it has the *potential* to improve things:)

Marco.

[Macca]

You've got the system across a corner though so maybe that is a part of it? Certainly was not hard to hear the dialogue or anything and I didn't notice the centre doing anything wrong that's true.


Mind I used to watch a lot of older films with mono or just stereo soundtrack and the way they were mixed all you get is centre speaker and hardly anything else. Most of the good '60s and '70s films have been remixed to 5.1 now, I re-bought a few of them because of that. So maybe that is also a factor.

[Smoking Joe]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to do some proper testing this evening. But before that here are some options to mull over:

1. Use one of my Wharfedale Diamond 9s that are currently sitting in the attic to replace the Valdus.

2. I have been kindly offered a Monitor Audio Radius 90 at a good price to replace the Valdus.

3. Last year I was tempted by a Mission 77C centre which I didn't buy, but I could search for another oldie like that. (But I need to measure to see if one would fit)


Thoughts/ advice?


4. Get rid of the centre altogether as suggested... I'll test this tonight to see what I think....

[Marco]

You've got the system across a corner though so maybe that is a part of it? Certainly was not hard to hear the dialogue or anything and I didn't notice the centre doing anything wrong that's true.


Yeah, could be... A fortunate accident?:D


Mind I used to watch a lot of older films with mono or just stereo soundtrack and the way they were mixed all you get is centre speaker and hardly anything else. Most of the good '60s and '70s films have been remixed to 5.1 now, I re-bought a few of them because of that. So maybe that is also a factor.

Yeah, old films not remixed to 5.1 do sound cack, and that's where a centre speaker defo doesn't enhance the movie experience. Fortunately, I don't watch many of those. I prefer the latest releases, produced with all the 'gizmos', to show off a good home-cinema system - as long of course as the films themselves are worth watching!

Marco.

[Marco]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to do some proper testing this evening. But before that here are some options to mull over:

1. Use one of my Wharfedale Diamond 9s that are currently sitting in the attic to replace the Valdus.

2. I have been kindly offered a Monitor Audio Radius 90 at a good price to replace the Valdus.

3. Last year I was tempted by a Mission 77C centre which I didn't buy, but I could search for another oldie like that. (But I need to measure to see if one would fit)


Thoughts/ advice?


4. Get rid of the centre altogether as suggested... I'll test this tonight to see what I think....

Defo try 1. See what you think, as it's free, and take it from there. If you like the effect, try the Monitor Audio, and if that's even better, go for it and try and get the rest of your speakers to match, or buy another centre speaker that's as good, and which makes matching everything easier.

For me, there's definitely something [greater sonic cohesion] to be said for using a 'complete AV speaker package' from the one manufacturer; *providing* it's a good one!:)

Marco.

[Smoking Joe]

Defo try 1. See what you think, as it's free, and take it from there. If you like the effect, try the Monitor Audio, and if that's even better, go for it and try and get the rest of your speakers to match, or buy another centre speaker that's as good, and which makes matching everything easier.

For me, there's definitely something [greater sonic cohesion] to be said for using a 'complete AV speaker package' from the one manufacturer; *providing* it's a good one!:)

Marco.

Yeah I would go for the Dali centre if I could fit one, it's juts a little big so it would stick out. Not only would I hear about it for the next 20 years ;-) but it would get knocked and bumped as it would stick out. While I know a matching set up would probably be better, still I never had an issue with them not matching exactly...
Anyway, I let you know what I end up with! :-)

On a side note on getting rid of the centre altogether, the anal part of me would be a little annoyed that there is part of the amp sitting there never to be used.... weird I know! :-)

[Smoking Joe]

One result just in....

Valdus versus no centre at all?

- At first I really wasn't sure, but after listening to the same film clip over and over. It was a very close call, but I am calling it for the Valdus. I think the sound focusing on the telly is better for dialogue than the more spatial 2 channel stereo. But I'd get used to it without also. But the centre wins.

Centre 1
No centre 0

My Diamond 9s are in the attic and I don't have a ladder here at the moment, so that next test will have to wait.

[Smoking Joe]

OKay I still haven't gotten my ladder back so haven't gotten into the attic to get the Diamond 9s down to test one of them as a centre. The only way one would fit would be on it's side, so I'm not sure that would be idea anyway?

I would go out tomorrow and buy a Dali Zensor Vokal centre (266 quid new) to match my Dali Zensor 5 main speakers, but due to a restriction on centre speaker dept that cannot happen. And to be honest I've never had a problem with the centre not being the same make/ family.

After testing between my current Whafedale Valdus centre and no centre speaker, I definitely prefer having a centre speaker.

So in the mean while I have come across a mint Ruark Dialogue one centre and a mint Monitor Audio Silver 10i centre for about the same price. Both are about 210mm deep. My max is 200 mm deep, but 10mm sticking out I can live with. Both come in at around 200 quid delivered.

So out of these two what would be your opinions? Which would be the prefered choice? Would they be an upgrade on my Valdus?


The Dialogue One would be a nice piece of old British craftmanship from the same era of my system. I'm guessing the Silver 10i is about 15 years(?) younger and more mass produced, but has a lower end freq. 48hz versus 70hz.

[Macca]

Did you re-configure your amp to work with no centre speaker before you tried it?


Anyway of the 2 I would go for the Ruark I think. Those MA silver are a bit full on.

[Smoking Joe]

Did you re-configure your amp to work with no centre speaker before you tried it?


Anyway of the 2 I would go for the Ruark I think. Those MA silver are a bit full on.

Thanks for the quick reply. And I know for 10/10ths of perfection I should match the centre with my mains, but I just can't fit the Dali centre. It's just too deep. I have 200mm to play with and the Dali is 268mm so it would be sticking way out into my room. Unless I used it as a TV stand but then I imagine that the vibrations would kill the telly eventually...?

I did set the AV amp to no centre versus having one. I could definitely live without a centre speaker as the sound is still good even if more spacial. But after a lot of comparing like for like, I do prefer the more centrally focused sound from the centre speaker.
So while the difference is very slight, having a centre just pips having no centre at the post for the win for me.

[Smoking Joe]

Or else a Mission 77C1 for about 100 quid?

[Smoking Joe]

I've changed tack again, and made my final decision. After the advice given and further testing, I would prefer to match the main and centre. From listening to other peoples systems, it does make a difference....

I would love the full fat Zensor Vokal but as said, I just can't fit one. :-(

And after speaking with my local Dali dealer I will go for the Zensor Pico Vokal. One option was to get a Zensor 1 and use it on it's side, but they only sell the Zensor 1 in pairs. And apart from that they said that the Pico is 90% of a Zensor 1 anyway, just reduced in size. It based on the same Zensor family so should be a good tonal match.

I was thinking of the Dali Spektor Vokal (200 quid) but they said to stick with the Zensor Pico (100 quid) to match the tone of the Zensor 5s.
So the Zenzor Pico Vokal it is then. And the cheapest of all my options!

[icehockeyboy]

Taking into consideration that the centre speaker is for dialogue only, which is not picked up by the left and right fronts, and in my own experience, it really isn’t that important to have all 3 fronts from the same manufacturer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Smoking Joe]

A new and FINAL final change of direction.....
The day before I was meant to be picking up the Zensor Pico from my local Dali dealer an advert popped up for a pair of Dali Zensor 1s and a Dali Zensor Vokal which were 6 months old...……..and all for 200 quid! :-0

My whole point was that I could not fit the Vokal (266 new)…….
And I have no need or interest in Zensor 1s (254 new)………

But that price!!!! Bugger!!!!!! Arrgghhh!!!! So I pulled the trigger and they arrived this morning at 9am...

I just watch a film as a test for the centres... Wow! The difference between my Valdus and the Vokal is massive! Voices are so much clearer and natural, and more punchey. I'm happy! Well apart from not being able to fit it!!
So my only option is to butcher the new TV/HiFi unit that we bought last year...…...bugger!!

And what about the Zensor 1s? Sell them? Well I have a spare Audiolab 8000A and a CD player so I could use them as a small system in the dinning room...….and my wife thought that was a great idea! :-0 :-) :-) Happy days!

Well apart from the hassle of butchering the TV unit....

[Smoking Joe]

Taking into consideration that the centre speaker is for dialogue only, which is not picked up by the left and right fronts, and in my own experience, it really isn’t that important to have all 3 fronts from the same manufacturer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes I never had the centre matching the mains or rears and I never felt that there was an issue. The difference of having the Vokal is huge, but I say that it down to it being a much bigger and better speaker. I can't say that it is because it matches the mains as I have nothing equivalent to compare it against.

[Jac Hawk]

What i was told by the AV engineers at work is that 5.1, 7.1 whatever was invented for cinema where you have 10 to 15m between your front L & R speakers so in that size of space and to give everyone in the audience good sound a centre speaker is needed, in the home that isn't the case so it isn't really a necessity, i use one and think it works fine it's very subjective though