Seg with power amp?

[meBob]

Hello All,

As anyone used the Caiman Seg (latest version) as a preamp to a power amp?

I've used it plugged into my integrated but the have to turn the volume knob on the Seg all of the way around to get any volume.

I've seen a few cheap power amps recently and might give one a try if the Seg can cope.


Thanks,
Rob

[StanleyB]

I use the SEG with my power amp all the time. It produces about 1.2Vrms on the variable output, which is just above the 1Vrms that power amps are normally specified at for full output.
Which input on your integrated do you use? If it is the CD input then you won't get a loud enough signal. The CD input needs 2Vrms, which is twice the input requirement of a power amp.

[Stryder5]

Hello All,

As anyone used the Caiman Seg (latest version) as a preamp to a power amp?

I've used it plugged into my integrated but the have to turn the volume knob on the Seg all of the way around to get any volume.

I've seen a few cheap power amps recently and might give one a try if the Seg can cope.


Thanks,
Rob

What position is the volume control of the integrated in?

[meBob]

Hello StanleyB & Stryder5,

It was connected up to the CD input, and I've now moved it to the AUX input, but the volume levels seem the same to me?

The amp I'm using is a mid 80's Denon if that makes any difference and not a modern one.

The volume knob on the amp is at 12 and the volume on the SEG is between 11 and 2 for a usable volume.

Is there a difference of input sensitivity between amps and power amps?


Thanks,
Rob.

[Stryder5]

Hello StanleyB & Stryder5,

It was connected up to the CD input, and I've now moved it to the AUX input, but the volume levels seem the same to me?

The amp I'm using is a mid 80's Denon if that makes any difference and not a modern one.

The volume knob on the amp is at 12 and the volume on the SEG is between 11 and 2 for a usable volume.

Is there a difference of input sensitivity between amps and power amps?


Thanks,
Rob.

Yes there is a difference in sensitivity.

Besides switching between sources, you can consider an integrated as a variable gain power amp, so turn up the volume on the integrated to say 3 o'clock and use the Dac volume as your master.

I know this simplifies the differences but play with volumes till you get the result that works for you.

Gary

[meBob]

Hello Gary,

I use the Dac section of the SEG only with my integrated amps, but tested the preamp and was a bit surprised how far I had to turn the volume up to get something usable.

Its performance as a preamp coupled to a power amp with no volume control is something I am considering, there are some decent power amps going on ebay and elsewhere that are a fair bit cheaper that intergrads, I thought I'd give one ago.

Am I correct in assuming the SEG has a similar sensitivity to most other preamps out there (basically the same ball park) and ability to drive power amps? If so I'll stop worrying and buy the next power amp I want.

Thanks,
Rob

[Stryder5]

Hello Gary,

I use the Dac section of the SEG only with my integrated amps, but tested the preamp and was a bit surprised how far I had to turn the volume up to get something usable.

Its performance as a preamp coupled to a power amp with no volume control is something I am considering, there are some decent power amps going on ebay and elsewhere that are a fair bit cheaper that intergrads, I thought I'd give one ago.

Am I correct in assuming the SEG has a similar sensitivity to most other preamps out there (basically the same ball park) and ability to drive power amps? If so I'll stop worrying and buy the next power amp I want.

Thanks,
Rob

HI Rob,

I didn't really understand the above post from StanleyB, but the Caimen is his product and he should comment.

I have never had an issue with pre amp into integrated or power amp. One of my systems currently uses a passive pre ( I.e. An attenuator) so the max volume I can get out is with the volume pot fully open. I use this with CD, iPad, iPhone and various other sources. This feeds into a Parasound power amp, listening at high levels I only get to 12 o'clock on the pre!

Being unfamiliar with the Caimen I don't understand how to use it as a pre, perhaps I'm being thick as I only see digital inputs and analogue outputs that would then feed into a pre? I'll find a manual and see what I am missing.

Gary

Just found the manual online, the volume gain is adjustable, I think page 2 paragraph one explains this.
Hope this works:)

So it appears in DAC mode the output from the Caimen is max gain.
In Pre mode the output is variable and therefore can be set as above.

But, what do I know:rolleyes:

[Sherwood]

I have a Caiman SEG so can comment from experience. I have used it with three different power amps (SS and valves) and it works fine with each one. Simply a case of flipping the toggle switch between DAC and preamp mode.

Geoff

[monkfish]

If you go for a pro power amp, they usually come with gain controls you can set to suit your output, only problem I had was trying to use a naim power amp with a Caiman, couldn't get enough gain so sounded quite weedy.
I'm using a Behringer A500, cheap as chips, clean and powerful, 120w into 8ohm.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Behringer-A500-Ultra-linear-Reference-Stereo-Amplifier-300-300W/263720993325?epid=1719242233&hash=item3d66ff022d:g:dsMAAOSwrWVbDIxp

[StanleyB]

If you go for a pro power amp, they usually come with gain controls you can set to suit your output, only problem I had was trying to use a naim power amp with a Caiman, couldn't get enough gain so sounded quite weedy.
If it's the Caiman MKII there isn't much that can be done with the pre-amp gain. The SEG on the other hand can be tweaked to give a higher output. But you'll need a 15V power supply to get the most out of the tweak.

[meBob]

Hello Gary (Stryder5),

There's a good chance you know a lot more than I do. I'm grateful for you help!

Thanks

[meBob]

Hello Geoff (Sherwood),

Thanks for the confirmation it works, this gives me options of both intergrated and power amps.

[meBob]

Hello Jim (monkfish),

I've Googled the A500, there's not many people with anything bad to say about it when considering the price it's sold for.

There's a review on What HiFi where someone compares it to my amp (Sony F770ES) and at £170 it compares well (considering the Sony was a flagship, remarkable!) but the reviewer also says it's a nudge on the bright side compared to the Sony, I wouldn't be able to live it. It would also be going through KEF Reference speakers that tend to highlight the good and the bad.

Many thanks for the help though.

[twotone]

Hello Jim (monkfish),

I've Googled the A500, there's not many people with anything bad to say about it when considering the price it's sold for.

There's a review on What HiFi where someone compares it to my amp (Sony F770ES) and at £170 it compares well (considering the Sony was a flagship, remarkable!) but the reviewer also says it's a nudge on the bright side compared to the Sony, I wouldn't be able to live it. It would also be going through KEF Reference speakers that tend to highlight the good and the bad.

Many thanks for the help though.

Hi Jim, I've heard Jim's amp with his Beresford Caiman and laptop, I sold him a pair of Dynaudio speakers earlier this year, and the sound from his set up was astonishing I was Gobsmacked quite frankly.

Tony

[monkfish]

Hello Jim (monkfish),

I've Googled the A500, there's not many people with anything bad to say about it when considering the price it's sold for.

There's a review on What HiFi where someone compares it to my amp (Sony F770ES) and at £170 it compares well (considering the Sony was a flagship, remarkable!) but the reviewer also says it's a nudge on the bright side compared to the Sony, I wouldn't be able to live it. It would also be going through KEF Reference speakers that tend to highlight the good and the bad.

Many thanks for the help though.

I am using the A500 with a first gen Caiman with the Gator board mod, I also have a Caiman Seg which works equally well , speakers used have been Tannoy Cheviots, Kef Reference 3 and now Dynaudio audience 72.
Sound has been outstanding throughout, never a hint of brightness or any other nasty traits, I have since bought another A500 and would like to purchase a third to run an active Linn Isobarik system where there were Naim amps previously.

[Stryder5]

Hello Gary (Stryder5),

There's a good chance you know a lot more than I do. I'm grateful for you help!

Thanks

We all learn, there are lots of people on this forum who know far, far more. Always willing to help!

[Sherwood]

Hello Geoff (Sherwood),

Thanks for the confirmation it works, this gives me options of both intergrated and power amps.

No problem, but do make sure that you have the volume control set to zero and the Caiman SEG set to preamp mode. If you have it set for DAC mode or the volume set too high on start up you may damage your speakers.

Geoff

[robtweed]

If you go for a pro power amp, they usually come with gain controls you can set to suit your output, only problem I had was trying to use a naim power amp with a Caiman, couldn't get enough gain so sounded quite weedy.
I'm using a Behringer A500, cheap as chips, clean and powerful, 120w into 8ohm.


I use an SEG directly into a Naim NAP 100 with exceptionally good results. Only thing I had to do was to earth the SEG to the Naim Amp to remove an earth loop hum. I don't think I've ever pushed the SEG's volume control beyond 50%. Sound quality is amazing - crystal clean quality across the spectrum and deep, clean solid bass. The SEG is powered by a Chinese 15V linear power supply, but even with the standard power supply there was never any problem with gain levels.

I previously used a Behringer A500 - I've actually had several of them, and, disappointingly they all ended up with intermittent crackles and noise from the potentiometers which was so bad it risked damaging my speakers. I kept getting sending them back and getting them replaced until I gave up after the 3rd one which ended up the same way. I've tried various things to figure out how to stop this happening, but with no long-term success, so I gave up, bought the Naim and the A500 is just gathering dust in a cupboard now. If anyone has any ideas, do let me know how you think the problem might be solved. It's a shame because the A500 is otherwise a pretty nice, very powerful and very cheap amp otherwise, but this fault makes it too unreliable IMO. Sounds like you have a good one, and I hope it doesn't develop the same fault.

The Naim, by comparison, has been flawless from day 1 and is a fabulous, high-quality piece of kit, and IMO has been well worth the extra money. It gets my 100% recommendation if anyone else is considering a power amp to use with an SEG.

[Stryder5]

Hello Geoff (Sherwood),

Thanks for the confirmation it works, this gives me options of both intergrated and power amps.

Hi Rob,

What was the solution?

Gary

[monkfish]

I use an SEG directly into a Naim NAP 100 with exceptionally good results. Only thing I had to do was to earth the SEG to the Naim Amp to remove an earth loop hum. I don't think I've ever pushed the SEG's volume control beyond 50%. Sound quality is amazing - crystal clean quality across the spectrum and deep, clean solid bass. The SEG is powered by a Chinese 15V linear power supply, but even with the standard power supply there was never any problem with gain levels.

I previously used a Behringer A500 - I've actually had several of them, and, disappointingly they all ended up with intermittent crackles and noise from the potentiometers which was so bad it risked damaging my speakers. I kept getting sending them back and getting them replaced until I gave up after the 3rd one which ended up the same way. I've tried various things to figure out how to stop this happening, but with no long-term success, so I gave up, bought the Naim and the A500 is just gathering dust in a cupboard now. If anyone has any ideas, do let me know how you think the problem might be solved. It's a shame because the A500 is otherwise a pretty nice, very powerful and very cheap amp otherwise, but this fault makes it too unreliable IMO. Sounds like you have a good one, and I hope it doesn't develop the same fault.

The Naim, by comparison, has been flawless from day 1 and is a fabulous, high-quality piece of kit, and IMO has been well worth the extra money. It gets my 100% recommendation if anyone else is considering a power amp to use with an SEG.

Hi Rob
I can only give my findings with a Nap 250 which has had the full Avondale treatment, there just wasn't enough gain when used with the Caiman, the sound was good but not loud enough to enjoy any dynamics.
I didn't mean this to sound like a Naim bashing exercise, unfortunately it may come across like that, they do have a good reputation for longevity and I used them for many years myself.

[meBob]

Hello Jim (monkfish) & Tony (twotone);

Having seen the kit you're using, my last response to you now seems a bit condescending, I apologise. I never intended it that way, I just said it as I seen it.

I've read a few more reviews, some being very happy such as yourself, some complaining about reliability and some about brightness and the need to choose the right speakers. It does interest me though when I read people comparing them to really high end kit. Reliability seems to be an issue that sways me away.

How do they sound compared to previous amps? Are you running these in mono?

[meBob]

Hello Geoff (Stryder5),

I'm basically feeling reasured the SEG will be ok as a pre.

I had let a few power amps float past downstream on ebay, because I wasn't too sure about the preamp section.

I've also noticed a post I missed from Stanley Beresford, he says there's a mode that can be performed to improve the preamp section. I'll probably use the SEG on a power amp first though before going down the mod route.

Don't know what I'm going to buy, won't be any panic buying I have a couple of decent amps to listen to.

[meBob]

Hello Rob (robtweed),

Thanks for your input, it looks like I have nothing to worry about with the seg preamp.

The fact that you've had several A500 and kept trying means you must rate this amp? How does it sound up against your previous amps?

My main amp is a Sony F770ES and it has big soundstage with lot's of air in between instuments and plenty detail, it really sings when warmed up and it's quite a fast paced amp.

[twotone]

Hello Jim (monkfish) & Tony (twotone);

Having seen the kit you're using, my last response to you now seems a bit condescending, I apologise. I never intended it that way, I just said it as I seen it.

I've read a few more reviews, some being very happy such as yourself, some complaining about reliability and some about brightness and the need to choose the right speakers. It does interest me though when I read people comparing them to really high end kit. Reliability seems to be an issue that sways me away.

How do they sound compared to previous amps? Are you running these in mono?

Hi Jim, monkfish (Jim) knows his stuff mate, certainly much more than me, I couldn't believe how good the Dynaudio speakers sounded in his system, in my system they sound excellent in Jim's system they were like different speakers to what I had been listening to for the previous three months, as I said previously my jaw dropped and I'm not talking loud volume here I'm talking dynamics, mid range and bass to die for and all at reasonable listening levels.

I came away thinking that it must have been down to his room and that Jim knew exactly what worked in that room.

I've customer with a £12k to a £16k all Linn system and it sounds stunning but you know what? Jim's system sounded just as good or should I say it had that feeling that you get in your chest from a top of the range sound system.

I've never experienced that in my own system.

[Stryder5]

Hello Geoff (Stryder5),

I'm basically feeling reasured the SEG will be ok as a pre.

I had let a few power amps float past downstream on ebay, because I wasn't too sure about the preamp section.

I've also noticed a post I missed from Stanley Beresford, he says there's a mode that can be performed to improve the preamp section. I'll probably use the SEG on a power amp first though before going down the mod route.

Don't know what I'm going to buy, won't be any panic buying I have a couple of decent amps to listen to.

Hi,

I'm interested in what the solution was?

Gary

[monkfish]

Hello Jim (monkfish) & Tony (twotone);

Having seen the kit you're using, my last response to you now seems a bit condescending, I apologise. I never intended it that way, I just said it as I seen it.

I've read a few more reviews, some being very happy such as yourself, some complaining about reliability and some about brightness and the need to choose the right speakers. It does interest me though when I read people comparing them to really high end kit. Reliability seems to be an issue that sways me away.

How do they sound compared to previous amps? Are you running these in mono?

No apology needed mate, just a discussion, I'm as surprised as anyone how good the amp sounds, out of the box it was a bit thin and hard sounding, I posted here to that effect and said I wasn't too happy with it, three days of burn-in rounded the sound off lovely and I'm still using it about 2 years later.
I'm using one amp in stereo mode just now but I have another so they could be bridged and used as mono's, with the Dynaydio's being 4ohm, the power would be about 600watts a side.
There has been reliability issues for some people unfortunately, but no probs here thankfully.

[Alp]

I have tried my Caiman SEG as a pre-amp into my mono-blocks. There was no problem with the sound level but I found the sound to lack detail and dynamics compared to the passive BTE pre-amp that I use. Also my BTE allows me to switch the input to my AV amp pre-out to drive the front speakers.

[meBob]

Hello Alp,

Thanks for the input.

[meBob]

Hello Stryder5,

My original question was asking if anybody had tried the SEG with a power amp.

I've had back some positive replies that it does work ok. The solution is that it does and if see a power amp I want, I'll buy it.