Record cleaning machines

[paulf-2007]

Having only seen photos of rcm's and nobody explaining how they work, I made my own, a nos lenco belt drive that I used the chassis and sub platter, with a 15rpm reverseable motor and VPI suction piece, coupled to a wet vac. I spray some record cleaning liquid on and then spread it with a brush, then vac it dry. Results are not that good. So thinking to buy a proper one, but would like a more detailed explanation of how yours works, rather than just " I've got xyz and it works fine "
On the other hand what should I be doing that perhaps I'm not that would improve my results, the vac works fine.

[Audio Al]

I have one of these
loricraft prc3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZmRy3cbFjw&t=78s

[paulf-2007]

Thanks Al, surprised that the thread isn't to clean the grooves, probably assumed by many. So other than the individual attention to the groove with the wand following the groove it's the same cleaning process of spraying with cleaner and brushing, before vacuuming. Most of the cheaper machines are manually operated, I see some you just put a record in and it does both sides, so must be fully automated. Perhaps I should get a proper mix and a better brush. Tbh I'm using the liquid that came with a knosti antistat.

[CageyH]

A good brush and proper fluid will help.
The RCM only spins the record and the vac sucks the liquid and dirt off.
Put the liquid on, let it soak for a while, give it a bit of a scrub and then vac off.

[Bigman80]

Knosti stuff does an ok job.

I bought a Project VC-S and things didn't go very well at all. The first unit was faulty and so was the second. Bought an Okki Nokki instead and everything is fine. Cleans very well too. Simple fluid that came with the Project diluted with distilled water. No issue.

[paulf-2007]

Maybe a rinse with distilled water and a second vac may help.

[Mike Reed]

Can't see what you're doing wrongly. You're using a VPI felt pad arm and wonder if you're using the VPI brush; or at least, a brush, not a pad. I've a 16.5, and squeeze a thin stream of home-made IPA mix for one revolution. I then spread it, moving the brush to ensure groove penetration. I then let it soak (very important) for a minute or three. Then rotate, manoeuvring the brush again and then vac. off (2 turns max.) Leave to fully evaporate then sleeve. II think my VPI rotates a bit faster than 15 i.p.s. but I can't see that affecting things.

Ah, just noted; 15 r.p.m. Not sure how that equates, though.

[karma67]

my basic method after cleaning and vacuuming the cleaning solution off is 2 rinses with distilled water,each rinse is spread on with a brush and worked a few revolutions clockwise and counter clockwise.
hope that helps.

[paulf-2007]

Can't see what you're doing wrongly. You're using a VPI felt pad arm and wonder if you're using the VPI brush; or at least, a brush, not a pad. I've a 16.5, and squeeze a thin stream of home-made IPA mix for one revolution. I then spread it, moving the brush to ensure groove penetration. I then let it soak (very important) for a minute or three. Then rotate, manoeuvring the brush again and then vac. off (2 turns max.) Leave to fully evaporate then sleeve. II think my VPI rotates a bit faster than 15 i.p.s. but I can't see that affecting things.

Ah, just noted; 15 r.p.m. Not sure how that equates, though.
Just ordered a goat hair brush. Will get some deionised water to hopefully remove any residue left by the knosti fluid. Perhaps I need to leave the vinyl out of the sleeves longer to dry better.
At 15rpm the record looks dry in one revolution, I usually give it two revolutions.

[paulf-2007]

my basic method after cleaning and vacuuming the cleaning solution off is 2 rinses with distilled water,each rinse is spread on with a brush and worked a few revolutions clockwise and counter clockwise.
hope that helps.
Thanks Jamie

[montesquieu]

Thanks Al, surprised that the thread isn't to clean the grooves, probably assumed by many. So other than the individual attention to the groove with the wand following the groove it's the same cleaning process of spraying with cleaner and brushing, before vacuuming. Most of the cheaper machines are manually operated, I see some you just put a record in and it does both sides, so must be fully automated. Perhaps I should get a proper mix and a better brush. Tbh I'm using the liquid that came with a knosti antistat.

I have essentially the same machine - PRC6 vs PRC3. The Loricraft has two big advantages over the Moth/Oki Nokki type machines:

1) It's far, far quieter - especially the PRC6 which I have which has the quietest, most powerful motor - this is the only difference between the various models.
2) It's far more efficient as sucking up all the liquid (and along with it - dirt), there's no need for any drying after cleaning, the record is dry enough to turn over and clean or go straight on the turntable.

I'm a big fan of the Loricraft.

[Manicatel]

I use a ProJect cleaner, along with the project or moth record cleaning fluid.
A reasonable amount dripped on to the record, spread evenly over the record with the project goat hair brush, using only very light pressure.
I spin the record both ways to ensure even & thorough coverage. Leave the fluid to sit for a minute or so & then switch on the vacuum, about 2 rotations in each direction. Repeat for side 2. If it’s an unusually dirty or marked lp I might repeat for an extra thorough clean.
Always use a new poly lined inner sleeve, job done.
I guess there are more prestigious wet-vac cleaners than the project but it works for me, curing static & dirt very effectively.

[Mike Reed]

Just ordered a goat hair brush. Will get some deionised water to hopefully remove any residue left by the knosti fluid. Perhaps I need to leave the vinyl out of the sleeves longer to dry better.
At 15rpm the record looks dry in one revolution, I usually give it two revolutions.

I use distilled water (again, home made; sort of !) but maybe de-ionised is essentially the same. Using an IPA mix has the advantage of a quicker evaporation time, but I simply leave the record on the platter for a minute or so, depending on ambient temperature. Can't see the point in rinsing (wasteful), as if there's residue left in the grooves, something's not working correctly.

[montesquieu]

I use distilled water (again, home made; sort of !) but maybe de-ionised is essentially the same. Using an IPA mix has the advantage of a quicker evaporation time, but I simply leave the record on the platter for a minute or so, depending on ambient temperature. Can't see the point in rinsing (wasteful), as if there's residue left in the grooves, something's not working correctly.

The solvent is there to help with cleaning - water alone won’t make much of an impact on oils etc left by fingerprints. Evaporation is a side effect/benefit not the main reason for using it. The alternative is detergent but that’s not necessarily more benign or easier to rinse off.

[Mike Reed]

I have essentially the same machine - PRC6 vs PRC3. The Loricraft has two big advantages over the Moth/Oki Nokki type machines:

1) It's far, far quieter - especially the PRC6 which I have which has the quietest, most powerful motor - this is the only difference between the various models.
2) It's far more efficient as sucking up all the liquid (and along with it - dirt), there's no need for any drying after cleaning, the record is dry enough to turn over and clean or go straight on the turntable.

I'm a big fan of the Loricraft.

I wonder how the suction from the smaller vac. area of the Loricraft compares to the whole side vac. of others. I maintain that the vac. can extract fluid but cannot actually dry the grooves. If using an alcohol based fluid, evaporation is rapid. A non-alcohol based fluid will obviously take longer. You'd need a blow-dry function to achieve instant dryness.

In practice this is almost splitting hairs, except that if you sleeve a damp record you invite mould, and if you play it immediately, there is more likelihood of the stylus picking up any residual detritus. Does depend upon the fluid used to some extent.

[struth]

My moth drys easily in a turn or two to be sure. Can then go straight on tt or a sleeve. I do agree its damn noisy tho.

[martinjohn308]

Back in the late 70’s I bought a Keith Monks machine which I used for many years I found noisy in operation. Later on I replaced it with a VPI 16.5 machine I found it much better when sucking the fluid over the record. Much better than the KM.

Regards,

Martin

[alphaGT]

Knosti stuff does an ok job.

I bought a Project VC-S and things didn't go very well at all. The first unit was faulty and so was the second. Bought an Okki Nokki instead and everything is fine. Cleans very well too. Simple fluid that came with the Project diluted with distilled water. No issue.

That’s a shame, I love my Project. But I know they took forever getting it to market, and even when I got mine, the screw that’s holds the lower record support on, I had to tap the hole before I could get the screw in. But now that I’m using it I’m quite thrilled, and it outperforms my old VPI 16.5 in every way. But, it’s not rocket science, I’m sure the Okki is very fine machine that produces the same results.


Russell

[Bigman80]

Russel, i was impressed with the result from the second one I had but the build quality was shocking. I'm pleased for those who have a good one but I wasn't prepared to keep giving them the benefit of the doubt. Glad yours is fine!


That’s a shame, I love my Project. But I know they took forever getting it to market, and even when I got mine, the screw that’s holds the lower record support on, I had to tap the hole before I could get the screw in. But now that I’m using it I’m quite thrilled, and it outperforms my old VPI 16.5 in every way. But, it’s not rocket science, I’m sure the Okki is very fine machine that produces the same results.


Russell

[alphaGT]

Depending on how dirty your records are, it can take a few subsequent cleanings to get very dirty and moldy Records clean. Moldy Records may require some enzyme type cleaning fluid.

I’ve read that most brushes are not fine enough to reach the bottom of the groves. Only some carbon fiber brushes have bristles small enough to actually reach the bottom. So, it seems the soaking is what does the work, and the brush only keeps the fluid spread out while soaking?

Russell

[alphaGT]

Russel, i was impressed with the result from the second one I had but the build quality was shocking. I'm pleased for those who have a good one but I wasn't prepared to keep giving them the benefit of the doubt. Glad yours is fine!

I don’t blame you, at those prices one expects quality! But I have noticed that the price of the unit in Europe is less than here in the states. I’m not sure where they are being made, but it makes me wonder why? Are they selling seconds in Europe?

Russell

[Macca]

Depending on how dirty your records are, it can take a few subsequent cleanings to get very dirty and moldy Records clean. Moldy Records may require some enzyme type cleaning fluid.

I’ve read that most brushes are not fine enough to reach the bottom of the groves. Only some carbon fiber brushes have bristles small enough to actually reach the bottom. So, it seems the soaking is what does the work, and the brush only keeps the fluid spread out while soaking?

Russell

I wonder about that too. I think that the fluid loosens the dirt in the bottom of the grooves then it gets sucked up in solution. I've managed to get really bad records clean and playing through without any flaws, and I'm talking about records so encrusted in crud you would think they had been down a mine. It does take a lot of cleaning though, and if the grooves are damaged, that's it. But there's no question it does clean to the bottom eventually.

My only bit of advice is don't be sparing with the jollop. Pour it on don't spray it on, you can't use too much, and then get a good bow wave going with the brush

[Mike Reed]

The solvent is there to help with cleaning - water alone won’t make much of an impact on oils etc left by fingerprints. Evaporation is a side effect/benefit not the main reason for using it. The alternative is detergent but that’s not necessarily more benign or easier to rinse off.

Of course, but I wonder what the non-alcohol based fluids comprise. Is L'Art du Son detergent based or enzyme based ? They all seemingly do what they say on the can, but in different ways. Another benefit of the IPA mix, and surely not an insignificant one, is cost. Three benefits of IPA, then.

[paulf-2007]

Of course, but I wonder what the non-alcohol based fluids comprise. Is L'Art du Son detergent based or enzyme based ? They all seemingly do what they say on the can, but in different ways. Another benefit of the IPA mix, and surely not an insignificant one, is cost. Three benefits of IPA, then.
What ratio mix do you make

[karma67]

most cleaners on the market contain both a surfactant and ipa.a surfactant is both a wetting agent and detergent.
for example i use triton x.

[karma67]

What ratio mix do you make

here's a good recipe to start you off paul, https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/for-audiophiles/home-brew-cleaner-for-vacuum-rcms/

[montesquieu]

Of course, but I wonder what the non-alcohol based fluids comprise. Is L'Art du Son detergent based or enzyme based ? They all seemingly do what they say on the can, but in different ways. Another benefit of the IPA mix, and surely not an insignificant one, is cost. Three benefits of IPA, then.

There's another thread somewhere about L'Art du Son, it's detergent based I think, but it seems fungi can grow in it, my own bottle (which I got free with the Loricraft) was full of floaters when I checked - it went in the bin. Anyway I didn't like it I thought it left a residue which even 2-3 rinses didn't get rid of.

I have three lots of fluid available, a proprietary Enzyme Cleaner ('Plus' brand), my own cocktail of IPA-based cleaner which I apply with a spray (similar to the recipe just posted) and a water rinse with a few drops of photographic agent as surfactant, as in the IPA-based cleaner. I only use the enzyme one when it's clearly needed .. I generally use a two-step process on the Loricraft - IPA brush + clean, water brush and clean.

I am also on the Degritter (one button ultrasonic cleaner) beta programme (I have a beta2 machine here at home) I find that this works very well and is particularly good on new vinyl, which often has crap in the grooves. Every so often I think to myself that I could live with just this on its own, but then I come across some some second-hand record that's particularly mucky/greasy and I'm glad I have the Loricraft to run it through first before putting it in the Degritter, as that would likely take a few passes to clean something that filthy whereas the alcohol + vacuum approach gets it clean enough for the Degritter to finish the hob. As a combo they pair are unbeatable.

Will see what the final production version brings before I make a decision. They both have their plus points.

[alphaGT]

I use a ProJect cleaner, along with the project or moth record cleaning fluid.
A reasonable amount dripped on to the record, spread evenly over the record with the project goat hair brush, using only very light pressure.
I spin the record both ways to ensure even & thorough coverage. Leave the fluid to sit for a minute or so & then switch on the vacuum, about 2 rotations in each direction. Repeat for side 2. If it’s an unusually dirty or marked lp I might repeat for an extra thorough clean.
Always use a new poly lined inner sleeve, job done.
I guess there are more prestigious wet-vac cleaners than the project but it works for me, curing static & dirt very effectively.

What i like about the Project is that is doesn’t have a platter, when you clean the second side you aren’t laying the clean side down on the dirty platter. When I had the VPI, I cut a circle out of a vinyl record sleeve and laid over the cork platter to keep the first side clean. You can’t press down as hard on the record as you can with a platter, but I’m not sure that’s actually helping clean the record anyway.

Russell

[Kvaal]

I want to post pictures of my Ultrasonic-DIY-dirt-cheap record-cleaner. Can anyone tell me how to post pictures?

[karma67]

johan,have a read here. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?2-How-to-host-and-embed-images-in-your-posts

[Kvaal]

Thank you!

[walpurgis]

Photobucket no longer works unless you pay the hefty subscription.

If you want to try 'tinypic' http://tinypic.com/

I wrote instructions a while back. Here:

http://i65.tinypic.com/2gt4sqb.png

[Mike Reed]

What ratio mix do you make

Approx. 3 or 4 distilled water to 1 of 99.9% IPA (isopropanol ?). The ratio's not crucial. Plus a wee shot of unperfumed quality washing-up liquid. Wetting agent is probably better but I couldn't get it in small quantities at the time.

[karma67]

thats a lot of ipa,no wonder it drys fast!

[struth]

I use about 25% myself

[Mike Reed]

thats a lot of ipa,no wonder it dries fast!

A ratio of 1 (PA) : 4 or 5 water is pretty standard, and is suggested in that Jazz Collectors' link to DIY record cleaning fluid. Using a ratio of 1:3 is okay if you have a very soiled record. I've resorted to almost pure IPA on one or two charity shop records in the past, without any noticeable detriment to s.q. on playback.

One caveat mentioned at the beginning of that linked article concerned a 'using freezer water 'cos my physics teacher said it was the same as distilled water' Melted ice from defrosting the freezer IS effectively distilled. However, it should obviously be thrice filtered to remove any rubbish.

[Barry]

Approx. 3 or 4 distilled water to 1 of 99.9% IPA (isopropanol ?). The ratio's not crucial. Plus a wee shot of unperfumed quality washing-up liquid. Wetting agent is probably better but I couldn't get it in small quantities at the time.

Washing up liquid contains salt - not good.

[struth]

better with ilfatol. last u a lifetime

[Barry]

better with Ilfatol. last u a lifetime

Agreed.

[montesquieu]

Agreed.

+2 for Ilfatol. Barely a dent in my bottle a couple of years on. It's only a tenner or something to start with.

[Kvaal]

http://tinypic.com/r/280e2s/9

[montesquieu]

http://tinypic.com/r/280e2s/9

nothing showing for me ...

[Kvaal]

Seems i can`t do this. I only get lagging.

[Macca]

you need to use the IMG link from the hosting site, paste that in. None of the others will work.

[Kvaal]

Thanks Macca!

http://i66.tinypic.com/2h7m6va.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/33y5d8m.jpg

Made of ultrasonic washer from China, low rpm motor from China, help from a good carpenter and parts from an old data-printer. Cost less than 200£.

[Oddball]

I collect the water from a dehumidifier :eek: (In reply to using freezer ice !! lol)

[Kvaal]

Tempered water from the tap with å drop of dishwasher makes my records as new. Even new records get better.

[paulf-2007]

Tempered water from the tap with å drop of dishwasher makes my records as new. Even new records get better.
Dishwasher.....rinse aid?

[Kvaal]

Dishwasher.....rinse aid?

I mean the soap you use when washing the dishes. Was it wrong?

[Castroil]

Having only seen photos of rcm's and nobody explaining how they work, I made my own, a nos lenco belt drive that I used the chassis and sub platter, with a 15rpm reverseable motor and VPI suction piece, coupled to a wet vac. I spray some record cleaning liquid on and then spread it with a brush, then vac it dry. Results are not that good. So thinking to buy a proper one, but would like a more detailed explanation of how yours works, rather than just " I've got xyz and it works fine "
On the other hand what should I be doing that perhaps I'm not that would improve my results, the vac works fine.23675


I bought the Moth RCM kit Years ago (maybe 10yrs) The wooden chassis takes a bit of effort and time cut it correctly . When finally assembled it has very good power and cleans well. It is also convenient and easy to use. There's a strong motor that sucks the air out of a sealed box. in this box is the waste fluid reservoir connected to the pipe that dries the record. It took me a long while to realise it is worth buying proper formulated solution like L'art du son. which I now use because I get much better sounding records

http://www.britishaudiostore.com/moth-record-cleaning-machine-mk2-kit/

[Castroil]

....Also the condensed water from a clothes drier that has a collection tank. (In reply to Oddball's reply to: in reply to using freezer ice !)

[Lee Henley]

I went to the Motor Cycle Museum record fair yesterday and there was a guy promoting a new Ultrasonic record cleaning machine who i also met at the Munich HiEnd show this year. They were offering the machine at £998. The guy at the record fair was saying that the fluid in the bath only contained a small amount of IPA and no wetting agent, he reckoned that the wetting agent caused more harm than good from the research they they had done. The system seems very laborious to say the least!

The link below explains how the system works and for those interested they will be at the North West Audio show on the 23rd June. I shall take a few records with me and get them cleaned to see how good the system is

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/if-charles-kirmusss-record-cleaning-machine-and-regimen-correct-everyone-elses-wrong