Are expensive carts worth it?

[Tim F]

Running a denon dl103 with paratrace tip. This sounds really good but wondering what you get if you go up in price to one thousand, two thousand and ultra levels?

Thanks! Tim

[CageyH]

Small gains are to be had with some large price changes in my opinion.

[GrahamS]

I think it depends what you have further downstream..

[walpurgis]

Small gains are to be had with some large price changes in my opinion.

I agree. The law of diminishing returns hits hard with cartridges as prices go up. Of course, that's not to say proper expensive carts are not worth having.

[Tim F]

I have high end kit. Focal scala utopias etc. So thanks for the opinions. What have you actually run / compared ?

[walpurgis]

Well I've got a couple of ZYX R100's and I won't be spending more.

[RobbieGong]

Spooky ! Been meaning to ask the same question to see what folks think.

Some high end carts are a heck of a lot of money no matter how you look at it and in my experince as you go up there are improvements but after a ceetain point they are small but welcome.

I loved the 2M Black at around £460 and gradually moved up to it's bigger brother the Cadenza Black, now pushing £1850 plus.

Do I feel you get £1400 worth of improvement with the Cadenza over the 2MB (to put it in that very simplistic manner)

Err, to be honest £1400 is a BIG difference / a heck of a lot of dough put that way, so no.

As has been said, Improvements are small after a certain point but the ask for those small improvements each time can be large (unfortunately) :rolleyes:

[Castroil]

RobbieGong
I would say it depends on how much disposable income you have to spend . If I was Elton John I would not flinch at £2000 for a cartridge.

[Bigman80]

Recently, I felt no need to invest much more in a cartridge when I picked up a nearly new Kontrapunkt b (£800ish New).

A few days ago, a friend of mine came round with an Ortofon Vienna (£2000 new) and an Audio Technica ART7 (£999 new)

The Audio Technica was very good and in some areas was better. A marginal improvement on the Kontrapunkt. The Vienna however, was a different league. Everything was better. The piano notes had better resonance, the soundstage was massive, the instrument separation was better and as a whole, I was left feeling like the Kontrapunkt had taken a beating and the Kontrapunkt is a fantastic cartridge.

In my opinion, just because a cartridge is more expensive, won't mean its automatically better. You need to buy smart. Swapping a 2M black for Candenza black will bring refinement and poise but the characteristics will likely be similar due to house sound.

[walpurgis]

To be honest, I know £1000 plus MC's do improve on sound quality, but a considerably more modestly priced item can still offer great music enjoyment.

[Bigman80]

To be honest, I know £1000 plus MC's do improve on sound quality, but a considerably more modestly priced item can still offer great music enjoyment.No doubt about that Geoff, there are some extremely competent cartridges all available for £500 or less, Lyra Delos, AT33PTGII, Goldring Eroica, Kontrapunkt b, Denon 304, Lyra Clavis, plus others, that will deliver a performance that is nothing short of brilliant, BUT if you want to really get into the depths of what's available in those grooves, there is a price tag but IMO its well worth it.

I haven't had THAT much experience with Top End cartridges but what I have heard has shown me that I've only been scratching the surface.

[jandl100]

Back in my vinyl days I was generally fooling around in the £150 to £1000 RRP area of cartridges.
Tbh I think a great sound could be had at any of those prices, and I would have been hard pushed to find much of a correlation with price with the best that could be had at any price in that band. Mind you, the variation in sound between carts was astonishing - quite different musical, tonal, dynamic and spatial portrayals were to be had, which rather makes a mockery of any claims of accuracy as far as I am concerned. I've come to the view that vinyl is about subjective enjoyment rather than the search for truth.
:sofa:

But my one real comparative experience of a higher price band was a bit of a shock.
I was at a cartridge bake off and many of the usual suspects in the £500-£1k band (EDIT: this would have been 10-12 years ago, I guess - so add appropriate inflation) were played and some sounded very good to my ears.
Then a £2.5k AudioNote Io was slipped in with appropriate step-up tech, probably a £4-5k package .... oh boy, the improvement was dramatic. A real shock!
So yes, based on that limited experience I would say that there are real gains to be had by spending into the multi-£k region.

[jandl100]

.... I haven't had THAT much experience with Top End cartridges but what I have heard has shown me that I've only been scratching the surface.

Ouch :eek: - Nooooo, you don't want to do that, Oli!! :lol:

[Primalsea]

Moving upto the now unavailable Ortofon Rohmann (£1000 ish) was a huge difference but that was from a Goldring MM that cost around £120, so you would kind of hope so. I do wonder if your choice of music should steer your cartridge. I listen to rock, pop, blues rock, folk, alternative, no jazz, no classical, no big band, so I am not fussed about extracting every last ounce of soundstage and detail, as it tends not to be in the recordings in the first place, in favour of a bit of a in your face presentation.

[topoxforddoc]

Worth is a relative thing. It's also hard to put a value on some vintage cartridges, which have been out of production for decades. But does a high end cartridge add real value to the listening experience? A qualified yes from me.

Without a doubt a high end cartridge is likely to be better than a cheaper transducer. But it all depends on your system and room (and budget). Don't forget that some of the high end vintage MM/MI cartridges (e.g. Grace P9E, AKG P8ES etc) from the heyday of vinyl in the 70/80s were just awesome, but sadly long forgotten.

My £3k Allaerts sounds much better than my previous Dyna DV23R, Ortofon MC10 Super, Supex SD900E and SL15ELL. There is finesse, space in the soundstage and greater sense of the harmonics, but still you get a kick from the bass line. I've heard the Dyna XV-1T and the Transfig Proteus elsewhere and they sounded excellent as well.

But your system and room have to be able to resolve and project the extra resolution form the front end.

[karma67]

to counter the topic,what about the denon 103 and variants?
ive had more listening pleasure with the SA model than with any other cartridge i have owned.
it doesn't extract every last detail from the groove,but its set up is a doddle and being conical it doesn't need a week of sra adjustment either.

id love to hear a really high end cartridge though just to way up what im missing.

[spendorman]

RobbieGong
I would say it depends on how much disposable income you have to spend . If I was Elton John I would not flinch at £2000 for a cartridge.

Some people I know used to run a pub in Watford in the 60's. They got various musicians in to supply live music. They got one young piano player in, he bashed the keys a bit hard, they sacked him. They sacked Elton!

[walpurgis]

Some people I know used to run a pub in Watford in the 60's. They got various musicians in to supply live music. They got one young piano player in, he bashed the keys a bit hard, they sacked him. They sacked Elton!

He was the pub pianist in The Northwood Hills Hotel around the mid sixties. We used to flick peanuts at him.

[spendorman]

He was the pub pianist in The Northwood Hills Hotel around the mid sixties. We used to flick peanuts at him.

lol, that is funny, did he really bash the piano keys that hard then?

[walpurgis]

Not that I recall. Nobody paid him any attention. He was just a dopey looking 'yoof' tinkling the ivories on the piano in the corner.

[ianlenco]

Interesting discussion which highlights what is wrong with vinyl replay these days. I don't think anybody would put a high quality cartridge in a cheap tonearm on a cheap turntable. My setup has been stable for a while consisting of a Zyx R50 Bloom on a Jelco 12" arm sat on a replinthed JVC QL-7. Sounds great to me but most of my friends can't believe why anyone would spend over £1500 just to spin the record, never mind the rest of the gear needed to make music. In today's world mine is a pretty cheap set up compared to what you could spend and to be honest I think the cost of a decent vinyl setup has got very, very silly. I've had Lyras, Ortofont Kontrapukt B and other decent cartridges in the past and enjoyed them all but the thought of shelling out £1000+ for a tiny bit of engineering makes me shudder, not because I couldn't scrape together the money but because it represents such poor value for money.
I also enjoy my digital source - a mac mini with SSD running Audivarna - cheap as chips in comparison and a few hundred to replace/improve upon if required. I love playing records but really wonder if it has a future for me..........

[struth]

inclined to agree, but if folk want to..... happy now with my mm's tbh. not perfect but sounds pretty good.

[Bigman80]

Ouch :eek: - Nooooo, you don't want to do that, Oli!! [emoji38]Lol, a little humour in the post. Glad you picked up on it Jerry, I thought it was lost [emoji23][emoji23]

[Bigman80]

to counter the topic,what about the denon 103 and variants?
ive had more listening pleasure with the SA model than with any other cartridge i have owned.
it doesn't extract every last detail from the groove,but its set up is a doddle and being conical it doesn't need a week of sra adjustment either.

id love to hear a really high end cartridge though just to way up what im missing.I'm hoping to get the Ortofon Vienna at the Bakeoff. Ortofon Class it in their "Elite" range along with the "A95" and "Anna" carts.

Whether we can do it justice in the hall on the day remains to be seen.

[jandl100]

to counter the topic,what about the denon 103 and variants?
ive had more listening pleasure with the SA model than with any other cartridge i have owned.
it doesn't extract every last detail from the groove,but its set up is a doddle and being conical it doesn't need a week of sra adjustment either.

id love to hear a really high end cartridge though just to way up what im missing.

I agree with the sentiment here.
The 2 most enjoyable carts I owned were both towards the lower end of the price window.
Denon 103 rebodied and a Dynavector 10x5.
The sheer fun factor beat the extra accuracy from more expensive carts, including Dyna 17d3.

[Audio Al]

My opinion would be yes they are worth the extra money
From my experience the further up the price range I have ventured the more refined the sound has become , Less coloured and more clinical , I have only ventred as far as a Shelter 5000 MC cart / ZYX R100 Yatra

I prefer the MC range as aposed to the MM's :)

[Dickchy]

I’m following this thread with interest as I have been wondering precisely the same. I use a Goldring Eroica LX which I think is a great cartridge for the money. However, I keep wondering how much more detail I would get by spending more.
I have no idea which brand I should be looking at or how much I should be spending but I like the Eroica’s boogie factor, to get technical😉
Deck is an LP12 with Ekos SE arm.
It is difficult for me to get to bake offs as I am not in mainland UK.
Any ideas for a turbo-charged Eroica welcome!
I listen mainly to classic rock.

Richard

[Bigman80]

I’m following this thread with interest as I have been wondering precisely the same. I use a Goldring Eroica LX which I think is a great cartridge for the money. However, I keep wondering how much more detail I would get by spending more.
I have no idea which brand I should be looking at or how much I should be spending but I like the Eroica’s boogie factor, to get technical[emoji6]
Deck is an LP12 with Ekos SE arm.
It is difficult for me to get to bake offs as I am not in mainland UK.
Any ideas for a turbo-charged Eroica welcome!
I listen mainly to classic rock.

RichardBoogie factor is difficult to define, are we talking dynamics and excitement or .........

If it's dynamics and excitement, I heard a Lyra Clavis recently which really surprised me. It had a great sense of life and pace whilst retaining a great deal of transparency. I was very impressed.

Alternatively, the AT ART7 has dynamics to spare but has a slightly warmer tone than the Lyra Clavis. Nothing wrong with that at all, just not sure which one would suit.

Goldring had the stupid idea of pricing a genuine MC cartridge so low that people think it's a budget cart. It's far from it. I had one and preferred it to the AT33PTGII in most ways.

[walpurgis]

Goldring had the stupid idea of pricing a genuine MC cartridge so low that people think it's a budget cart. It's far from it. I had one and preferred it to the AT33PTGII in most ways.

You hit the nail on the head there Oliver. The Eroica LX offers an amazing sound for the price.

I also had an Ortofon MC25FL which I was using at the same time, which had the edge on the Eroica, but not by much and of course, if the Ortofon was still made, you'd be paying around a grand for it now.

As Richard says, the Eroica LX really 'boogies'!! :)

The ZYX R50 Bloom outperforms both in my opinion, but all three are great MC's.

The thing is, so many people get the front end wrong. You simply cannot get proper enjoyment of a nice MC unless the head-amp or SUT are suitably good and the phono stage needs to be equally decent.

[Bigman80]

You hit the nail on the head there Oliver. The Eroica LX offers an amazing sound for the price.

I also had an Ortofon MC25FL which I was using at the same time, which had the edge on the Eroica, but not by much and of course, if the Ortofon was still made, you'd be paying around a grand for it now.

As Richard says, the Eroica LX really 'boogies'!! :)

The ZYX R50 Bloom outperforms both in my opinion, but all three are great MC's.

The thing is, so many people get the front end wrong. You simply cannot get proper enjoyment of a nice MC unless the head-amp or SUT are suitably good and the phono stage needs to be equally decent.Thanks Geoff, whilst I agree that there is a step up in some areas when the ZYX R50 was installed, there were areas that it wasn't. A rosy midrange and less detailed approach from ZYX didn't warm my heart and the ZYX R100 got the same treatment when the Lyra Clavis came on the scene. Now, I admit that this will depend largely on ones taste, but to mine, neither ZYX did transparency. Both did boogie. I refer to the ZYX as party cartridges. Great for everyone to dance to, not for those looking for detail and transparency.

The Goldring is a good mix of both but ultimately falls at refinement and resolution. Not in any great way but it's bettered by a fair bit when you move into Kontrapunkt, Clavis, Delos territory. For the money though, it's an absolute steal for someone looking for a well priced MC Cartridge. Used prices are favourable too.

[walpurgis]

neither ZYX did transparency

Strange. I found the opposite. Transparency, depth and soundstage were excellent, but I use different equipment with MC's.

[Bigman80]

The ZYX R100 was much better than the R50 but they aren't for me.
Strange. I found the opposite. Transparency, depth and soundstage were excellent, but I use different equipment with MC's.

[struth]

You hit the nail on the head there Oliver. The Eroica LX offers an amazing sound for the price.

I also had an Ortofon MC25FL which I was using at the same time, which had the edge on the Eroica, but not by much and of course, if the Ortofon was still made, you'd be paying around a grand for it now.

As Richard says, the Eroica LX really 'boogies'!! :)

The ZYX R50 Bloom outperforms both in my opinion, but all three are great MC's.

The thing is, so many people get the front end wrong. You simply cannot get proper enjoyment of a nice MC unless the head-amp or SUT are suitably good and the phono stage needs to be equally decent.

heard they stopped the mc25 because they were selling it too cheaply. they called it something else and changed the case

[Barry]

heard they stopped the mc25 because they were selling it too cheaply. they called it something else and changed the case

Yes, that is what I heard. Would be interested to know what the 're-housed' version is called.

[Dickchy]

Boogie factor is difficult to define, are we talking dynamics and excitement or .........

If it's dynamics and excitement, I heard a Lyra Clavis recently which really surprised me. It had a great sense of life and pace whilst retaining a great deal of transparency. I was very impressed.

Alternatively, the AT ART7 has dynamics to spare but has a slightly warmer tone than the Lyra Clavis. Nothing wrong with that at all, just not sure which one would suit.

Goldring had the stupid idea of pricing a genuine MC cartridge so low that people think it's a budget cart. It's far from it. I had one and preferred it to the AT33PTGII in most ways.

Thanks for the pointers, I’ve read good things about Lyra, though never heard one. Yes I suppose by boogie factor I mean that it is really dynamic and exciting and gives my air guitar an outing! But then I like transparency too.
I bought my LP12 from Cymbiosis who were brilliant. I am occasionally in their area on business and may simply ask them if I can listen to a few cartridges to gauge which manufacturer I like. Alternatively I could buy something secondhand on AoS and take a chance. Just don’t know what I should be looking for!

[Bigman80]

Dynamic, transparent cartridges are the most expensive for a reason. Usually, there's a sacrifice between the desired traits.

It will depend entirely on your taste and I guarantee you will buy a cart on someone's recommendation and think "what are they thinking!" My advice is to get out as much as possible and listen to as much as you can. Try and pick folks with similar systems if possible. Solid state or valve, as long as it's on the same idea you should be fine. It gets more confusing as more variables are introduced. You are welcome here for a listen to a Kontrapunkt b and an AT-ART7, which will be here on loan for a few weeks. May be difficult from your location [emoji23]

Read as much as you can too. Lyra are very dynamic and transparent. If auditioning isn't always easy, I'd start there. Maybe a Delos.

Just listen to as much choice as you can.
Thanks for the pointers, I’ve read good things about Lyra, though never heard one. Yes I suppose by boogie factor I mean that it is really dynamic and exciting and gives my air guitar an outing! But then I like transparency too.
I bought my LP12 from Cymbiosis who were brilliant. I am occasionally in their area on business and may simply ask them if I can listen to a few cartridges to gauge which manufacturer I like. Alternatively I could buy something secondhand on AoS and take a chance. Just don’t know what I should be looking for!

[vintagesteve]

I haven't read through the many pages of answers. However, some on here may already know me to be a hifi enthusiast cum vintage audio equipment enthusiast who in the early 80s grew tired of the increasing shift of the genre towards one that embraced very subjective, often dubious, somewhat opinionated magazine reviews of hifi equipment in a way that frankly made it (hifi) also the domain of some who with little or no technical knowledge or experience swallowed every word and overnight seemingly became 'magazine well read' hifi experts able to talk lucidly and erm, knowledgeably on the subject. And that's why, in some cases, we now have very expensive, esoteric hifi components that simply are not worth the money when compared with others that have been produced based on 'feet on the floor', sound hifi engineering principles by people who truly know what they're talking about. In other words, if it's very expensive, hand polished, uses a rare type of wood and made in the Mojave desert by a bearded recluse who makes six a year, then it has to be good. That's the type of situation I'm alluding to.

Back on track (pun not intended) I have never owned an expensive cartridge, so from an experience point of view I cannot comment in that respect. I have owned and used MM and MC cartridges of modest value. Certain high end cartridges use wooden housings. Assuming that at the prototype/pre-production stage an excellent sound was obtained, then given that no two pieces of wood are exactly the same in terms of density, resonant frequency, weight etc, then I have to doubt that subsequent production units would exhibit exactly the same results. And if you're taking about a high end, state of the art component, you would expect it to do just that; be as 'perfect' as the reference one. I doubt that it can. Secondly, a more general observation, once you get into the realms of very costly, hand made components, then at some point you hit the laws of diminishing returns. So does that £10,000 cartridge sound ten times better than a £1k one? of course not, and many would not be able to ID which was the most expensive one. I also think that when it comes to R&D - and hence products that truly reflect that research in their sonic capabilities - then the larger companies are often better equipped to undertake it than the one man operation who charges the earth for his hand crafted creations. And again, the larger companies will likely have a team (small or otherwise) of developers whose goals and methods are the result of collaboration rather than the sometimes single minded - and way off course - ideology that a misguided but well meaning individual may take.

Are expensive cartridges worth it? In sonic terms I would say perhaps no, you could get equally satisfying results from a lower cost (not cheap!) cartridge. In terms of 'enjoyment gained', it could well be a resounding yes.

[Dickchy]

Dynamic, transparent cartridges are the most expensive for a reason. Usually, there's a sacrifice between the desired traits.

It will depend entirely on your taste and I guarantee you will buy a cart on someone's recommendation and think "what are they thinking!" My advice is to get out as much as possible and listen to as much as you can. Try and pick folks with similar systems if possible. Solid state or valve, as long as it's on the same idea you should be fine. It gets more confusing as more variables are introduced. You are welcome here for a listen to a Kontrapunkt b and an AT-ART7, which will be here on loan for a few weeks. May be difficult from your location [emoji23]

Read as much as you can too. Lyra are very dynamic and transparent. If auditioning isn't always easy, I'd start there. Maybe a Delos.

Just listen to as much choice as you can.

Thanks Oli. Would love to take you up on that but I live in the Channel Islands and don’t get to mainland UK that much. I did go to the WAM show at Kegworth last year which taught me a lot. I will go again next year but it’s a bit of a Hi Fi desert here, particularly for top end vinyl systems. Thanks for help.

[Bigman80]

Thanks Oli. Would love to take you up on that but I live in the Channel Islands and don’t get to mainland UK that much. I did go to the WAM show at Kegworth last year which taught me a lot. I will go again next year but it’s a bit of a Hi Fi desert here, particularly for top end vinyl systems. Thanks for help.Well, if you're over this way, give me a shout!

[Dickchy]

Well, if you're over this way, give me a shout!

Most certainly will do!

[paulf-2007]

As has been said its a personal taste thing. I have had Benz wood SL that some say is pipe and slippers, which I have to say is absolute rubbish, it rocked with the best of them. I've heard Koetsu's and Io gold and I was underwhelmed, a bit too polite for me as was a voyd 3 motor tt. After some nice mc's I've found the Shure ultra 500 to be an excellent even handed cart and when I want more excitement the Decca C4e, not that the Shure is boring in the slightest. If you can't get to bake offs to hear different carts then it's a process of elimination trying to recoup your money as you go.

[worrasf]

(e.g. ..., AKG P8ES etc) from the heyday of vinyl in the 70/80s were just awesome, but sadly long forgotten.


+1 - not by me

However, even the very best NOS vintage carts can suffer from "suspension/damping" degradation.
I was lucky enough to get a NOS AKG P8ES a couple of years ago. I sent it off to Axel Schurholz at http://schallplattennadeln.tonabnehmerservice.de/en/home/ (arguably the mister of AKG carts) for a "going over". Luckily it checked out A1 and is doing good service in my SME 3009/TD150

[Mike Reed]

As has been said its a personal taste thing. I've heard Koetsu's and Io gold and I was underwhelmed, a bit too polite for me....

Obviously not coupled to the right ancillary equipment, then. Not so much taste, but synergy. Higher end cart's need to be partnered according to their needs and Ks do need at least a medium mass arm. Ios need an S.U.T. because of their ridiculously low output. Both need quality phono stages.

[gwernaffield]

has anyone experience with soundsmith cartridges , i have just bought a soundsmith zepher mimic star , after years of buying Moving coil , i think this is what the call moving iron , firstly i cannot believe the sound stage that seems to be better than the MC cartridges i have had in the past , and the channel separation is a lot better , just wondered if anyone else has come across this or am i fooling myself due to the price tag of £1500,

[smangus]

I got back into vinyl 10 years ago after a 20 year break , never got rid of my records though :cool: I will admit that carting them around house to house for 20 years was a pain.

Since then I have been through 4 carts , a 2M red , a Notts Analogues tracer 3 , both MM and good fun if different from each other - budget carts as second hand. Then I managed to get hold of a Kontrapunkt B on the bay for £200 which was a revelation to me and the 1st MC I had, advertised as 400 hours on the clock so plenty of life left in it. One day, in a fit of drunken headphone using buffoonery :doh: I managed to snap the cantilever which mean I needed a new cart.

Reading around I decided I would try and get a ZYX 100 (about £800 from memory) and treat myself to something new. Just before I pulled the trigger on it a ZYX Yatra came up on the bay advertised as low hours, I decided the chance it as the seller sold a fair bit of high end stuff regularly and had v good feedback.

Anyway it cost me less than a new ZYX 100 and was a step up the ladder from this at £1200 new. I couldn't have afforded this at the time, hearing it at first I thought I had made a big mistake - shonky bass no soundstage and loose all over. However I persevered with it and over a couple of weeks it changed completely, all tightening up bass, soundstage the lot.

I came to the conclusion that the low hours advertised was less than 20 and it had still been running in when I got it for a bargain price. Now I love it and wouldn't change back to the KB so that ended up being a happy accident , sort of.


My point is that I have a taste of the what is for me "high" end (1000-1500 carts) for a fraction of the price. If you are patient and a bit lucky :) then it is possible, as bargains are out there. It depends on the risk you are willing to take, it worked out for me in the end. It's worth it at this price but if I had to pay full whack I might have a different take on it.

[Primalsea]

IMHO I think that in order to get a good idea of carts from discussions people need to mention the music that they listen to with the cartridge. I don’t think that there is an ultimate cartridge just cartridges that excel at different types of music. These don’t have to be the most expensive either. An expensive MC might just be not the right choice over a humble MM for some genres, but for others the MM will be a disaster.

[montesquieu]

Worth is a relative thing. It's also hard to put a value on some vintage cartridges, which have been out of production for decades. But does a high end cartridge add real value to the listening experience? A qualified yes from me.

Without a doubt a high end cartridge is likely to be better than a cheaper transducer. But it all depends on your system and room (and budget). Don't forget that some of the high end vintage MM/MI cartridges (e.g. Grace P9E, AKG P8ES etc) from the heyday of vinyl in the 70/80s were just awesome, but sadly long forgotten.

My £3k Allaerts sounds much better than my previous Dyna DV23R, Ortofon MC10 Super, Supex SD900E and SL15ELL. There is finesse, space in the soundstage and greater sense of the harmonics, but still you get a kick from the bass line. I've heard the Dyna XV-1T and the Transfig Proteus elsewhere and they sounded excellent as well.

But your system and room have to be able to resolve and project the extra resolution form the front end.


I'd agree with this wholeheartedly.

It's easy for a high-end cartridge to underwhelm - it's right at the front of the chain and any wrong move can stuff things up - poor setup, a tonearm that may be good in its own right but badly matched, the wrong SUT or phono stage settings, and so on. Simply spending money on a cartridge won't achieve anything much on its own.

I've owned quite a few from Ios, Ikedas, and Koetsus to Lyras and Miyajimas (multiple examples of each of these), with a shed load of other stuff in between. A lot of the time especially in the early days of experimenting with high end cartridges I bought second hand but do that less often these days as it's very hard to know quite what you are getting. But it did help me experiment with a lot of different sounds.

Extra cash on a cartridge is only worth it for me if it generates more musical involvement - I've lost interest simply in adding detail or resolving power, after a certain point you just expect that. I generally find that it's all there, what's important though is what's emphasised, and how the organic whole is delivered. For some cartridges (the Io for example) I found this involved spending twice as much on a (Kondo) SUT as I did on the cartridge itself, in other cases it's the tonearm that's the critical partner - upgrading that can remove a major performance limitation. SUTs can be a serious bottleneck, then you have the preamp, amp, speakers ...

Anyway for this reason I don't think it's an argument about spending money on cartridges any more, more a discussion about how to balance a system to get the best out of components working together as you go up in levels of performance.

[karma67]

with that in mind is there a logical way of choosing cart/arm/turntable or is it just a matter of buying them and trying them out?
i get the cartridge resonance/tonearm mass thing but does it goes deeper than that?
for instance my denon 103 sounds better on the zeta tonearm at 16g mass as apposed to it being on my alphason at 11g mass with a heavy C/W and mass on the headshell.

[Bigman80]

with that in mind is there a logical way of choosing cart/arm/turntable or is it just a matter of buying them and trying them out?
i get the cartridge resonance/tonearm mass thing but does it goes deeper than that?
for instance my denon 103 sounds better on the zeta tonearm at 16g mass as apposed to it being on my alphason at 11g mass with a heavy C/W and mass on the headshell.I'd expect most carts to sound better on the Zeta mate. Has that been your experience?

[karma67]

so far oli,im having new bearing cones made for the pioneer arm,then i can give it a real test.

[speedracer]

From my own personal experience the answer is yes. Throughout my hi fi journey I have had mostly low to mid range carts, both MM & MC, Goldring Eroica, 1042, Sumiko Evo 3, Supex 900, DV10x5, Ortofon Rondo Bronze etc. Whenever I have tried more expensive models they have always provided more of everything, eg Ortofon Rohmann, Sumiko Pearwood Celebration ii, Lyra Helikon mono. Now it could be that all they have done is highlight that my sources have been good enough to show any & every difference, which is nice, but for me the differences were worth the extra expenditure every time. One of my decks is a modified Lenco GL75, with a derivative of the standard arm, which I use for old jazz mono records, but I recently fitted the Pearwood cart & took it to a bake off, where it found itself up against a Chord CD.DAC combo, don't know what as I am not into digital. Now obviously it is horses for courses, personal preference or however else you describe digital against analogue, I was told privately by quite a few people there that they preferred the Lenco. I am making no claims of any sort, other than the cartridge lifted the performance of the Lenco to another level.

[montesquieu]

with that in mind is there a logical way of choosing cart/arm/turntable or is it just a matter of buying them and trying them out?
i get the cartridge resonance/tonearm mass thing but does it goes deeper than that?
for instance my denon 103 sounds better on the zeta tonearm at 16g mass as apposed to it being on my alphason at 11g mass with a heavy C/W and mass on the headshell.

I've done a lot of trial and error but found overall that following a low compliance/high mass philosophy has worked very well for me ... that's the closest thing I have to a 'system', beyond that it's all gut feel based on experience. (Which you don't really get without the trial and error).

I've personally found the Alphason, which at 11g effective mass is in the medium mass bracket, works best with medium to high compliance cartridges, even if you change the equation by mass loading at the headshell end. It's a superb arm with something like a Lyra. (I ran mine with a Helikon for a bit).

Never had a Zeta but at 16g effective mass, it's no surprise the 103 works better on it.

[worrasf]

FWIW over the last 45 years or so of hifi ownership/upgrading I have found that adhering to the "system hierarchy" method (https://www.originlive.com/system-philosophy-advice.html) has stood me in good stead for most of my purchases. I grew up very much with the Linn/Naim tradition having had the iconic LP12/Ittok/Troika - 32/HiCap/250 - Kans system for many a year (and TBH very much enjoyed it) before moving over to the SL1210 & Crofts although I still have a TD150/SME 3009/AKG P8ES supernova)

Totally personal opinion of course but I think the temptation to spend lots of money on cartridges while neglecting TT & arm is because they have a sexy/eye candy allure while frankly bearing/platters and the like are pretty boring. And the gut feeling is that as it is the business end then money spent here must be a good move.

I have on occasion succumbed to the temptation of putting an expensive cartridge in a "cheap" arm and after an initial period of "wow that was money well spent" ended up feeling that the sound was unbalanced. I think that all other things being equal after a certain price point more expense just translates into a nuanced version of whether one likes a particular style of presentation - the law of diminishing returns personalised if you will. I suspect we all struggle to attain the idealised sound that we have in our minds (I know I do) and swapping out cartridges can be seen as the fastest way to get there (along with tube rolling of course ;) )

I have come to the opinion that cartridges are mighty fickle things and small as well as big changes further back in the system can affect their sound immensely (for good and bad). I struggled for ages to get my Paradox Pulse DL103R to sing until I bought a Rothwell Headspace and was able to tweak the loading - now it gets more playtime than my Denon DL-S1. While the S1 is arguably more refined and detailed the PPG DL103R just boogies and sometimes that's the sound I want - it's not better or worse just different :)

Back in the day it was easy to go along to a dealer and listen to various bits of kit including cartridges (and I suspect we were more influenced by dealer recommendations as there was less choice and information out there) - now it's very difficult to do this so we rely on reviews/recommendations hoping that the written word can convey the sounds sufficiently for us to make an informed choice. The myriad of variable and differences between our own home/system/preferences than the reviewers makes this nigh on impossible.

We all want to make the "best choice" not waste money and get it right first time but life just isn't like that. IME there is a lot of trial and error and not a few mistakes but I genuinely believe the "system hierarchy" philosophy holds true.

I guess I've wandered off topic - :mental:

[alphaGT]

FWIW over the last 45 years or so of hifi ownership/upgrading I have found that adhering to the "system hierarchy" method (https://www.originlive.com/system-philosophy-advice.html) has stood me in good stead for most of my purchases. I grew up very much with the Linn/Naim tradition having had the iconic LP12/Ittok/Troika - 32/HiCap/250 - Kans system for many a year (and TBH very much enjoyed it) before moving over to the SL1210 & Crofts although I still have a TD150/SME 3009/AKG P8ES supernova)

Totally personal opinion of course but I think the temptation to spend lots of money on cartridges while neglecting TT & arm is because they have a sexy/eye candy allure while frankly bearing/platters and the like are pretty boring. And the gut feeling is that as it is the business end then money spent here must be a good move.

I have on occasion succumbed to the temptation of putting an expensive cartridge in a "cheap" arm and after an initial period of "wow that was money well spent" ended up feeling that the sound was unbalanced. I think that all other things being equal after a certain price point more expense just translates into a nuanced version of whether one likes a particular style of presentation - the law of diminishing returns personalised if you will. I suspect we all struggle to attain the idealised sound that we have in our minds (I know I do) and swapping out cartridges can be seen as the fastest way to get there (along with tube rolling of course ;) )

I have come to the opinion that cartridges are mighty fickle things and small as well as big changes further back in the system can affect their sound immensely (for good and bad). I struggled for ages to get my Paradox Pulse DL103R to sing until I bought a Rothwell Headspace and was able to tweak the loading - now it gets more playtime than my Denon DL-S1. While the S1 is arguably more refined and detailed the PPG DL103R just boogies and sometimes that's the sound I want - it's not better or worse just different :)

Back in the day it was easy to go along to a dealer and listen to various bits of kit including cartridges (and I suspect we were more influenced by dealer recommendations as there was less choice and information out there) - now it's very difficult to do this so we rely on reviews/recommendations hoping that the written word can convey the sounds sufficiently for us to make an informed choice. The myriad of variable and differences between our own home/system/preferences than the reviewers makes this nigh on impossible.

We all want to make the "best choice" not waste money and get it right first time but life just isn't like that. IME there is a lot of trial and error and not a few mistakes but I genuinely believe the "system hierarchy" philosophy holds true.

I guess I've wandered off topic - :mental:

I agree 100%

Russell

[Bigman80]

so far oli,im having new bearing cones made for the pioneer arm,then i can give it a real test.To be honest mate, the Alphasson I had here (presuming all was well internally) wasn't up to much. I felt it improved on the mission 774 but apart from a sweet mid and treble, didn't have much authority in the bass and I hated the lack of Azimuth adjustment. It never had a future here.

I imagine once you've fettled that Pioneer arm, you will be very happy with it.

[montesquieu]

To be honest mate, the Alphasson I had here (presuming all was well internally) wasn't up to much. I felt it improved on the mission 774 but apart from a sweet mid and treble, didn't have much authority in the bass and I hated the lack of Azimuth adjustment. It never had a future here.

I imagine once you've fettled that Pioneer arm, you will be very happy with it.

Must have been in need of attention in some way. In my experience the Alphasons do deserve their reputation, albeit with careful cartridge matching.

[Bigman80]

Must have been in need of attention in some way. In my experience the Alphasons do deserve their reputation, albeit with careful cartridge matching.Tom, you could be right. There was no obvious sign of any tampering or bearing issue. It just didn't do it's reputation justice. I actually remember feeling terribly disappointed with it. The bass never had any grip and that's saying something when it had the ZYX bloom on it.

[karma67]

Maybe the way it was mounted perhaps?

[Bigman80]

Maybe the way it was mounted perhaps?I wouldn't have thought so, the Toshiba has a very solid plinth and the mount was extremely secure. Alignment was pinpoint too.

Like I say, maybe on another TT it would perform better or somewhere near its legendary status but it didn't work for me. I'm very confident the arm I use now would be very difficult to better.

[paulf-2007]

Obviously not coupled to the right ancillary equipment, then. Not so much taste, but synergy. Higher end cart's need to be partnered according to their needs and Ks do need at least a medium mass arm. Ios need an S.U.T. because of their ridiculously low output. Both need quality phono stages.haha, the kit they were working with was top notch and the people in question know what they are doing. Maybe I've been underwhelmed because the cost of these carts do not give the playback I would expect from such high cost gear

[montesquieu]

haha, the kit they were working with was top notch and the people in question know what they are doing. Maybe I've been underwhelmed because the cost of these carts do not give the playback I would expect from such high cost gear

Well that's that settled then. :lol:

[paulf-2007]

Well that's that settled then. :lol:
Yep for me it is.:)

[Stryder5]

To be honest mate, the Alphasson I had here (presuming all was well internally) wasn't up to much. I felt it improved on the mission 774 but apart from a sweet mid and treble, didn't have much authority in the bass and I hated the lack of Azimuth adjustment. It never had a future here.

I imagine once you've fettled that Pioneer arm, you will be very happy with it.

Did you get ssibilance Oli😂

[Bigman80]

Lol, no mate. The treble was sssssweet.
Did you get ssibilance Oli[emoji23]

[Si74]

It's all about synergy and the strangest combos can make way more magic than some of the ludicrously priced cartridges I've heard (barring the fact you seem to need to spend 15K plus to get a 'decent' turntable). WTA/Goldring Epic of unknown vintage on a home brewed Lenco, Wood Bodied Grado/Syrinx PU 2 on an early pinked Lp 12, 2.5K Audionote IO/PU 7 on a home brewed Lenco, Benz Glider/Stogi S on an Oracle, my faves above the umpteen dozen combos I've heard including my current Koetsu/Stogi Ref on an Oracle. Used to burn out 3 cartridges a year. Would I ever spend 2K on a cartridge again (or 2.6K dollas on a ZYX), no chance, older and wiser, mugs game.