View Full Version : Whats The Best Sounding Tonearm Vintage/Recent Regardless of Price?
Luvaudio
27-05-2018, 02:27
Am looking to find a most musical tonearm for my future projects. I need one For either or
Thorens 124, Lenco 75, Technics Sp15,
Ar-Ta/Xa
Ammonite Audio
27-05-2018, 09:28
The answer rather depends on what cartridges you wish to use, since the mass/compliance equation should not be totally disregarded. Also, looks may be important on a vintage deck. All of that said, my recommendation would be for a heavyweight Japanese arm, and the Fidelity Research FR-64S won’t disappoint, and Phonomac of this parish has a bit of a gift for fettling these arms (he did mine).
hifi_dave
27-05-2018, 11:40
To my ears, one of the very best is the FR-64S. I still have one and won't be parting with it.
Another is the Breuer or the Sumiko MDC 800, which was a 'copy' and still excellent. I have one which will go on E-Bay when I get round to it.
Agree on the cartridge being a factor, you want a platform that absolutely does not add nor take away from what your cartridge can do.
In that spirit I put forward the SME V.
Its worth changing out the wiring (internal and external) I'd say as SME are an engineering not an audiophile company.
A silver rewired SME V is about as good (and as neutral) a platform as it gets.
paulf-2007
27-05-2018, 12:39
Stax UA-70, UA-7, UA-9, great arms and very versatile with different carts. I've used Benz wood SL, Shure Ultra 500 and Decca C4e, all work great. Extra counterweight allows for different mass carts.
pure sound
27-05-2018, 12:51
To my ears, one of the very best is the FR-64S.
Yup. Would go along with that.
Bigman80
27-05-2018, 12:58
The Phonomac AT1010 MK5 is a gift. There is no need to look further. Superior Japanese engineering, fettled and improved measurably by an obsessive engineer with a price tag that's cheaper than most of the arms listed and certainly less than one would expect v performance. I am more than happy to offer a listen to anyone who is interested. A stunning arm.
I cannot comment on the SME V as I've never heard one. I would LOVE to put a PMAT-1010 MK5 up against it, I have a strong suspicion that it would be VERY interesting.
For a Budget pick, I'd go for a Mission 774 original. Another outrageous bargain.
Regardless of price eh?
As others have said, it all depends on the cartridge you are wanting to use.
Low compliance cartridges prefer high mass arms, so I would recommend either the Fidelity Research FR64s or FR66S (the latter being a 12" arm), or an Ikeda modified Ortofon 309i (also 12"), or the latest SME M2-12R (again 12").
High compliance cartridges prefer low mass arms, so I would recommend either the Breuer Dynamic Type 5A, or even better (that is if you can find one), the Breuer Dynamic Type 8C. Failing that you might like to consider the Brinkmann 10.5 arm. The latter design is heavily influenced by the Breuer arms, but being 10" in length you might have difficulty fitting one to your TD124 turntable.
I have experience of, and use/have used all the above mentioned arms (save for the Breuer 8C).
Finally if you want an more or less universal arm, then I would recommend the SME V.
Mike Reed
27-05-2018, 16:56
The thread title says 'nice sounding'. That lets out the SME Five, as it's neutral to the point of coolness. No criticism here, but its eff. mass is only 11 g, but it is nonetheless quite versatile as far as cart's go. Even did quite well with my K Black and Urushi.
The thread title says 'nice sounding'. That lets out the SME Five, as it's neutral to the point of coolness. No criticism here, but its eff. mass is only 11 g, but it is nonetheless quite versatile as far as cart's go. Even did quite well with my K Black and Urushi.
No, the thread title says "best sounding"; so the SME V is a valid contender for the very reasons you post. The SME V has come in for some criticism by some, but it's one of the few arms that will allow a Decca (London) 'Reference' cartidge or a Koetsu 'Urushi' or 'Red' to perform at their best.
The OP uses the phrase "most musical tonearm", but then what is musical to some might not be to others. Me, I'll stick with neutrality and let the cartridge have the 'character'.
montesquieu
27-05-2018, 23:25
I would take either of my Ikeda arms (IT-407 or IT-345) or a FR64S over an SME V any day.
I wouldn't argue any of them are the best arm in the world regardless of price but all make wonderful music and work beautifully on a TD124.
https://i.imgur.com/K2ya356.jpg
You cannot judge an arm on its own really; it has to be considered alongside the cartridge of choice. Having owned many high end arms, I settled on the SME IV as it sounds excellent with my deck and a range of cartridges; it is a doddle to align and it stays set up for good. I want an arm to be neutral.
montesquieu
28-05-2018, 07:31
You cannot judge an arm on its own really; it has to be considered alongside the cartridge of choice. Having owned many high end arms, I settled on the SME IV as it sounds excellent with my deck and a range of cartridges; it is a doddle to align and it stays set up for good. I want an arm to be neutral.
Not the best arm for a TD124 from an aesthetic perspective. But agree on cartridge matching - and with a vintage idler I would suggest you really want a heavy arm and low compliance - SPU sort of approach.
Not the best arm for a TD124 from an aesthetic perspective. But agree on cartridge matching - and with a vintage idler I would suggest you really want a heavy arm and low compliance - SPU sort of approach.
Having had a range of idlers, I had a preference for unipivots. Stylistically, you're definitely correct about the 124 and the Ikeda gets closer than most to a beautiful match.
Audiocraft AC-3300/4400.
I have quite a few others, including FR64s which is a great arm for the low compliance cartridges, but the AC just has something about it and is so versatile (different arm wands).
Never really liked the later SMEs which is a pity given their heritage.
You cannot judge an arm on its own really; it has to be considered alongside the cartridge of choice. Having owned many high end arms, I settled on the SME IV as it sounds excellent with my deck and a range of cartridges; it is a doddle to align and it stays set up for good. I want an arm to be neutral.I think you have to consider the arm, cartridge AND the deck, AND what the deck is placed on.
Any TT setup is a highly sensitive resonant system, and it is the sum of the parts and how they all interact with each other.
Unfortunately, it is the sensitivity of the cartridge that has to fight with these complex resonant interactions and it "hears" what is going on and plays it back to you.
It simply isn't accurate. But that's not to say it can't sound great.
The point is whilst an arm might sound great on one TT, it may not on another.
Mike Reed
28-05-2018, 10:12
The SME V has come in for some criticism by some, but it's one of the few arms that will allow a Koetsu 'Urushi' or 'Red' to perform at their best.
A Five will not allow Ks to perform at their best, Barry. Adequately, maybe. Likewise Miyajima and other very low compliance cart's; they need a more massy arm than the SME. Something in the region of 20g eff. mass (or more for Miyajimas and others) would elicit the Ks' full potential; especially the stone-bodied ones.
Difficult to make a decent comparison, as the deck and arms changed, but my Urushi Vermillion simply took off when mounted in 12" PU7 and Ace Anna, both with an approx. eff. mass of 14/15 g (only 3/4 g more than the Five), though the arm length probably benefitted as well.
Luvaudio
28-05-2018, 19:05
Thanks for everyone's suggestions.
Whats your opinion on a vintage Ortofon Rmg212 tonearm? Are they only good with Ortofon Spu and Square Ort cartridges?
What arm would you suggest for those other 3tables?
montesquieu
28-05-2018, 19:37
Thanks for everyone's suggestions.
Whats your opinion on a vintage Ortofon Rmg212 tonearm? Are they only good with Ortofon Spu and Square Ort cartridges?
What arm would you suggest for those other 3tables?
I had the Japanese 1990s RMG 309i reissue - this is a superb arm. However I would have my doubts about the vintage ones from the 60s (likely would need restoration) and the 9in RMG 212 I'd avoid altogether as it has no anti-skate - with the 12in arm you can get away with this but not on a 9in arm unless you are using ancient mono cartridges at 5g+ tracking. Curiosity value only.
Lenco projects are many and varied. There are a few useful arms that drop in with no or minimal modification to the Lenco 75 - tons of info on Lenco Heaven forum- but for optimum performance you need to junk the top plate and go to a PTP design - again tons of info on Lenco Heaven, if you want to talk Lenco that's the place to do it, serious Lenco experts over there who have seen and done everything you could imagine with these decks, but do have a good read around first as pretty much any question you could ask has already been answered and many many builds documented. It's a wonderful resource on this topic.
With an SP15 the 'classic' combo is the Technics EPA-100, but personally I'd go for a Japanese broadcast arm like an ATP12T / AT1503 (I have an AT1503 Mk1, co-developed by AT and NTT for broadcast use, on my Garrard 401), there are many others around from Denon, JVC, SAEC, Audiocraft ... easy to spend up to whatever budget you set. FR64 remains an option as well, perhaps the later FR64fx would be a good option for the SP15.
A Five will not allow Ks to perform at their best, Barry. Adequately, maybe. Likewise Miyajima and other very low compliance cart's; they need a more massy arm than the SME. Something in the region of 20g eff. mass (or more for Miyajimas and others) would elicit the Ks' full potential; especially the stone-bodied ones.
Difficult to make a decent comparison, as the deck and arms changed, but my Urushi Vermillion simply took off when mounted in 12" PU7 and Ace Anna, both with an approx. eff. mass of 14/15 g (only 3/4 g more than the Five), though the arm length probably benefitted as well.
There are some reviewers who would disagree with you there. You can always add mass to a low effective mass arm. But each to their own. :)
Luvaudio
29-05-2018, 08:09
Would it worth putting a better arm on a very early AR turntable?
walpurgis
29-05-2018, 08:17
Would it worth putting a better arm on a very early AR turntable?
It would be a shame to butcher a classic turntable. The standard arm is capable enough and I like the funky looks.
montesquieu
29-05-2018, 08:46
Would it worth putting a better arm on a very early AR turntable?
Bouncy light platter belt drive tables are a different discussion entirely. Not a fan personally, after so many years with idlers I can always hear the speed wobble, even on a top spec LP12 or or three motor Voyd. Fine if pitch stability doesn't bother you.
Luvaudio
29-05-2018, 09:20
Would it worth putting a better arm on a very early AR turntable?
For AR XA/TAs there are 3 basic approaches.
1. Go with the existing arm - the main weakness is the headshell which is made of brittle plastic and the threads are prone to stripping if over tightened. Aftermarket headshells are available and are better but may need fettling to work properly. The stock arm also lacks proper anti skate though wires can be manipulated to provide some anti skate.
2. Go with the existing arm pivot but replace the arm tube and headshell with the SME type. The arm tubes are slightly narrower so need work to get them to fit tight without slopping. This would require budgeting for an arm tube with technics tubes commonly recommended. In addition it would require a rewire which needs good soldering skills. More advanced mods include replacing delrin bearing cups in the arm pivot with sapphire ones for better tracking and also damping the arm tube. Marc Morin who posts at Audiokarma is the acknowledged expert and he will carry out the work at a price.
3. Fit a replacement arm - this requires major surgery to the sub chassis using modifications originally known as the Merrill mods. Someone like Steve Frosten does do professional adaptations using a variety of tonearms but I have also seen several real bodges. Heavy replacement arms may be a poor fit and will cause issues with the suspension so mass balancing is needed.
My strong personal preference is option 2 though in my case I went my own DIY route with a straight aluminium tube and an ADC type straight arm headshell. The result is competitive with other decks in my collection and whilst not my best sounding deck is the one I use most.
montesquieu
29-05-2018, 09:44
For AR XA/TAs there are 3 basic approaches.
1. Go with the existing arm - the main weakness is the headshell which is made of brittle plastic and the threads are prone to stripping if over tightened. Aftermarket headshells are available and are better but may need fettling to work properly. The stock arm also lacks proper anti skate though wires can be manipulated to provide some anti skate.
2. Go with the existing arm pivot but replace the arm tube and headshell with the SME type. The arm tubes are slightly narrower so need work to get them to fit tight without slopping. This would require budgeting for an arm tube with technics tubes commonly recommended. In addition it would require a rewire which needs good soldering skills. More advanced mods include replacing delrin bearing cups in the arm pivot with sapphire ones for better tracking and also damping the arm tube. Marc Morin who posts at Audiokarma is the acknowledged expert and he will carry out the work at a price.
3. Fit a replacement arm - this requires major surgery to the sub chassis using modifications originally known as the Merrill mods. Someone like Steve Frosten does do professional adaptations using a variety of tonearms but I have also seen several real bodges. Heavy replacement arms may be a poor fit and will cause issues with the suspension so mass balancing is needed.
My strong personal preference is option 2 though in my case I went my own DIY route with a straight aluminium tube and an ADC type straight arm headshell. The result is competitive with other decks in my collection and whilst not my best sounding deck is the one I use most.
I prefer Geoff's answer. The AR is what it is, and while an OK turntable it isn't worth spending money and effort on when there are better alternatives that are less hassle and sound better .. modding it is lipstick on a pig. S/H Technics 1210 will vastly outperform it and has multiple upgrade paths.
Beginning to wonder what the OP is smoking though an AR is a million miles from a TD124 and some of the earlier discussion.
walpurgis
29-05-2018, 09:52
modding it is lipstick on a pig
And of course devalue it.
It's not mine however and the owner can do what they like with it. Personally I'd keep it standard, as it's an enjoyable piece if Hi-Fi history and was a bit of a landmark in its time. I think the money would be best put towards a deck that offers the required performance in the first place.
I'd love to hear one of the new Helius arms:
http://www.heliusdesigns.co.uk/wpimages/wp7d97286f_05_06.jpg
The early AR turntables have their admirers and this thread at Audiokarma is good starting point
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/offical-ar-turntable-owners-thread.595003/
Mike Reed
29-05-2018, 11:30
I'd love to hear one of the new Helius arms:
http://www.heliusdesigns.co.uk/wpimages/wp7d97286f_05_06.jpg
If I were a 9 inch arm person that one would sway me ! Aesthetics at the cost of performance, I wonder? Beautiful, regardless; Svelte, even.
If I were a 9 inch arm person that one would sway me ! Aesthetics at the cost of performance, I wonder? Beautiful, regardless; Svelte, even.
Interestingly the designer is a physicist, the arm is available in 10 inch and 12 inch geometries. It looks lovely, but I strongly suspect the form follows the function.
krugdoktor
29-05-2018, 16:39
Dont forget the „new” Glanz tonearm which is a really magnificent old school tonearm with jaw dropping sound (and jaw dropping price ��) AND it’s readily available ��.
montesquieu
29-05-2018, 16:45
Dont forget the „new” Glanz tonearm which is a really magnificent old school tonearm with jaw dropping sound (and jaw dropping price ��) AND it’s readily available ��.
Beautiful arm I saw it at the Bristol show .. but if we are discussing modded ARs now I think we left 'regardless of price' behind a few pages ago ....
FWIW I'm not particularly a fan of the Helius (or the SME V) indeed I can barely see the point of an arm that doesn't have a removable headshell. A one-cartridge tonearm is a bit like playing golf with one club.
No, the thread title says "best sounding"; so the SME V is a valid contender for the very reasons you post. The SME V has come in for some criticism by some, but it's one of the few arms that will allow a Decca (London) 'Reference' cartidge or a Koetsu 'Urushi' or 'Red' to perform at their best.
The OP uses the phrase "most musical tonearm", but then what is musical to some might not be to others. Me, I'll stick with neutrality and let the cartridge have the 'character'.
This 1000%
Dont go chasing Rainbows..neutral arm (SME V’s about as good as it gets imo) and pick your flavour with the cartridge.
Like everything else, its all about synergy.
With a properly set up V, jobs a good ‘un, pick a cartridge that makes you happy.
PS
(just dont mount it on one of these? (Hint hint...its all about synergy)
https://images.store.hmv.com/app_/responsive/HMVStore/media/product/137358/01-137358.jpg?w=950
Mike Reed
29-05-2018, 16:59
FWIW I'm not particularly a fan of the Helius (or the SME V) indeed I can barely see the point of an arm that doesn't have a removable headshell. A one-cartridge tonearm is a bit like playing golf with one club.
Interesting analogy ! It's integrity, they tell me.:) Haven't had a detachable headshell arm for so long I've forgotten. Theoretically, assuming the cart. stays with the headshell, you probably don't need to set it up each time; now that's a big plus point.
montesquieu
29-05-2018, 17:40
Interesting analogy ! It's integrity, they tell me.:) Haven't had a detachable headshell arm for so long I've forgotten. Theoretically, assuming the cart. stays with the headshell, you probably don't need to set it up each time; now that's a big plus point.
Well, records are different in what they need, and different genres have different requirements ... I use different cartridges for classical, jazz and rock, or just what I feel like listening to, then there's the whole mono thing where groove sizes vary over time. If you want to get the best out of each specific record then it helps to be able to change easily. I generally set my cartridges up with a selection of spacers and weights so that VTA is consistent between headshells and VTF comes out around the correct value for the cartridge so it's possible to make changes quickly with a minimum of faff. Once you get used to this it would seem like a huge compromise to be stuck with one cartridge the whole time, however good it is.
I don't buy the integrity thing I file that under 'audio myths'.
Not a fan of the SME V it's good, but not musical, like their decks, but quality engineering without question.
I set one of these up recently on new Oracle Delphi MK VI very nice, simple and exquisitely built, rather a damn fine sound as well.
We do not sell them, but they are supremely musical and the very last opposite end of the spectrum to SME as they play music naturally. unforced and just plain rather damn good.
I have listen to tone arms which are far more expensive sound not a patch on these of coarse YMMV
http://www.tonarm.ch/en/products/thales-statement
No tonearm should be “musical”...
Its engineering...do the flavour thing with the Cart.
Just my tuppence.
Not a fan of the SME V it's good, but not musical, like their decks, but quality engineering without question.
I set one of these up recently on new Oracle Delphi MK VI very nice, simple and exquisitely built, rather a damn fine sound as well.
We do not sell them, but they are supremely musical and the very last opposite end of the spectrum to SME as they play music naturally. unforced and just plain rather damn good.
I have listen to tone arms which are far more expensive sound not a patch on these of coarse YMMV
http://www.tonarm.ch/en/products/thales-statement
Nice design that, Tony (nice simple lines and looks well-engineered)! Me likes:)
I know exactly what you mean about the SME V, and echo your comments completely. However, as you know, with vinyl it's all about the sum of the parts, and any number of weird and wonderful ('happy accidents') can occur, combining to create a great sound!
And to my ears there's a bit of that going on, whenever you strap a 'V' onto a Michell Gyro (or Orbe). For some reason (providing the cartridge choice is right), it just works:cool:
Marco.
Mike Reed
29-05-2018, 19:29
Once you get used to this it would seem like a huge compromise to be stuck with one cartridge the whole time, however good it is.
I don't buy the integrity thing I file that under 'audio myths'.
Two cart's, Tom (for two arms), but both stereo, as I don't have mono records. Yes, with your plethora of interests, fixed h/shells would require quite a few decks. Nice thought, but generally impractical for most.
I wonder why many arms are fixed, if it's not the integrity design thing. Costs and ease of manufacture, maybe ? There has to be a reason. In fact (and I'm guessing here), the majority of upmarket arms may well be fixed; SME, O.L., A.O., Reed (?), Thales (as above) etc.
I like the Funk FXR arms. They just get out of the way of things and let the cartridge get on with doing its thing.
Mike Reed
29-05-2018, 19:37
....... whenever you strap a 'V' onto a Michell Gyro (or Orbe). For some reason (providing the cartridge choice is right), it just works:cool:
Marco.
Yep ! It does, but it's still a very neutral arm (on an Orbe), and even sounded good on two Lyras (my friend also) but I could never, with hindsight, figure out why. The Five is a superb arm, now over 25 years in existence, but not sure I would revert (to a Five-twelve, that is, as I wouldn't entertain another 9 inch).
krugdoktor
29-05-2018, 19:53
My Glanz trounced the SME V!
The Glanz is a dream arm for SPUs (Hamada San is a great fan of SPUs) but it’s the arm that gets a grip on my EMT JSD 5 like the SME never could:trust:
Also I prefer removable headshell arms as in the 2 months I have it now I played 3 catridges (2x SPU, 1x EMT) with it.
montesquieu
29-05-2018, 20:17
I like the Funk FXR arms. They just get out of the way of things and let the cartridge get on with doing its thing.
Yes I borrowed one for a bit and liked what it did with several cartridges. Not my usual kind of thing at all and not practical for me - but very musical.
RobbieGong
29-05-2018, 21:23
Yep ! It does, but it's still a very neutral arm (on an Orbe), and even sounded good on two Lyras (my friend also) but I could never, with hindsight, figure out why. The Five is a superb arm, now over 25 years in existence, but not sure I would revert (to a Five-twelve, that is, as I wouldn't entertain another 9 inch).
Why Mike ? I'm just trying to learn more about the 12 inch over 9, 10 inch arm thing
Mike Reed
30-05-2018, 07:04
Why Mike ? I'm just trying to learn more about the 12 inch over 9, 10 inch arm thing
Limited experience here, Robbie, but apart from an SME 3012 in 1970 I've had 9" arms on lots of decks, mainly, I s'pose, because the decks weren't cut out for 12" arms. However, when I changed from Orbe/Five to N.A. Dais, I decided to get two 12" arms; one unipivot and one gimbal, to 'taste the different flavour'.
The ease of handling/cueing and general feel of the extra 3" was immediately apparent, so that's the practical side. I also think the longer arms are a better aesthetic fit to, at least, my deck. Sound-wise, the 12" is slightly more laid-back, but gives a much more sure-footed presentation in the inner grooves. Obviously the arm is only part of the equation, but sonically, my findings have been echoed by many others.
Also, the 12" arm will have a bit more mass than the shorter equivalent, which would be handy for low compliance m/coils. There is a 'rightness' in handling a 12" arm compared to the shorter one which only becomes apparent when you experience it. I'm getting on a bit, and I find this practicality to also be a safety benefit in cueing and lifting off.
If you have one of the old idler decks (Garrard, Goldring (as I had)) or a mass decks (N.A., T.W.Acustic), a 12" arm is de rigeur, i.m.o. A suspended deck like Linn or Michell ? Not advisable. 'Orses for courses !.
speedracer
03-06-2018, 11:10
Possibly the discussion has moved on from this, & in any case I am not sure it would work visually on a vintage deck, but I recently heard a Kuzma Four Point with a lowly MM cartridge & I was absolutely staggered by how good it was, if fact it has made me stop & re-think my plans moving forwards. Just answering the bit in the OP about the "best sounding arms".
montesquieu
03-06-2018, 11:20
Possibly the discussion has moved on from this, & in any case I am not sure it would work visually on a vintage deck, but I recently heard a Kuzma Four Point with a lowly MM cartridge & I was absolutely staggered by how good it was, if fact it has made me stop & re-think my plans moving forwards. Just answering the bit in the OP about the "best sounding arms".
That's a really good point. A great deck and tonearm into a high-end phono stage can lift a competent but humble cartridge way beyond what you'd expect its performance to be. I sometimes do that trick with Shure SC35C or Tonar Diabolic E (both around £45-worth), starting listening off with one of these - on the TD124 on one of the Ikeda arms, they both really shine. But the performance is lifted again, substantially, when you add a quality moving coil.
Possibly the discussion has moved on from this, & in any case I am not sure it would work visually on a vintage deck, but I recently heard a Kuzma Four Point with a lowly MM cartridge & I was absolutely staggered by how good it was, if fact it has made me stop & re-think my plans moving forwards. Just answering the bit in the OP about the "best sounding arms".
I think sometimes Definitive Audio have used a Reson Reca for demos. :)
ianlenco
05-06-2018, 17:22
OK, a bit left field but how about an RS-A1? Maybe not the best but superb and incredibly flexible in use - just plonk it on the deck and wonder how the hell does it sound so good. My greatest hifi regret is selling mine.
http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu293/thebriars/lenco.jpg
Vrajbasi
08-08-2018, 22:28
I am currently happy with my thales tonearms and am happy with the Kondo badged sme v-12 I do find sme tonearms and a bit hit and miss as no two seem to be the same. The fidelity FR66 i have is also a great tonearm full bodied and works pretty good with spus . I also like the SCHRÖDER LT i find it a very effortless tonearm also the Davinci Vertu is a great bit of kit the build quality is fantastic I am not sure of the availability of the Davinci these days. The classic Sme m-12r is very underrated I actually prefer this to the 3012r in my opinion as offer good value when you consider the many crazily priced products out there.
I am currently happy with my thales tonearms and am happy with the Kondo badged sme v-12 I do find sme tonearms and a bit hit and miss as no two seem to be the same. The fidelity FR66 i have is also a great tonearm full bodied and works pretty good with spus . I also like the SCHRÖDER LT i find it a very effortless tonearm also the Davinci Vertu is a great bit of kit the build quality is fantastic I am not sure of the availability of the Davinci these days. The classic Sme m-12r is very underrated I actually prefer this to the 3012r in my opinion as offer good value when you consider the many crazily priced products out there.
I have both (well actually the 3012, not the 3012R, the latter of which uses a stainless steel arm rather than aluminium of the earlier 3012) and agree with you - but the bearings for motion in the vertical plane are quite different, and hence the two will 'sound' different.
Vrajbasi
09-08-2018, 08:03
The Axiom 12" Reference is built superbly I love it for its very open and airy sound I don't use it so much when I get my new cartridge today I will probably first give it a go in the Axiom. The glanz arms are stunning too I was offered a new 104s recently at a really good price but refused wish I did, decided one day when i have the funds I would go for the 124sd I generally prefer 12 inch tonearms just find them more gracious and sweet sounding while not as dynamic the 124sd also looks like a strong contender.
Interesting you comments regarding the length of pick up arms. Longer arms benefit from lower tracking distortion, but are more massive and have higher inertia, to the detriment of speed. Shorter arms are said to behave in the converse manner. So there are some who think that arms having an effective length mid way between the two are an optimum compromise.
I have several arms covering all three options, and am of the opinion that it all comes down to effective mass and bearing quality, rather than length.
Vrajbasi
11-08-2018, 10:47
I recently had a offer to hear the SAT arm at home on my micro seiki while tempted the £34000 price tag certainly put me off golden rule never try things you cant afford.
http://swedishat.com/technology-2.html
Always preferred the SME 4 over the 5, just found it more enjoyable.
Not that you would ever find one, but the second Heybrook arm was a blinder. Would love to have it back.
Vrajbasi
12-08-2018, 18:01
Always preferred the SME 4 over the 5, just found it more enjoyable.
Not that you would ever find one, but the second Heybrook arm was a blinder. Would love to have it back.
I kind of understand as I have heard sme IV arms sound better than Vs and vice versa I have even heard a 309 sound better than a not so good V.
I kind of understand as I have heard sme IV arms sound better than Vs and vice versa I have even heard a 309 sound better than a not so good V.
Unless it was with the exact same cartridge and mounted on the exact same TT, and listened through the same amplifier and speakers, I can't see how you can be rigorous in your observation
Vrajbasi
12-08-2018, 21:50
Unless it was with the exact same cartridge and mounted on the exact same TT, and listened through the same amplifier and speakers, I can't see how you can be rigorous in your observation
Because I have been in the fortunate position to do exactly as you say and have at times owned several several sme arms all at the same time, the dealer who I use carries many in stock have been able to borrow quite a few too. I also speak from what I have heard in my system which I am familiar with.
So have I; same model SME arms, mounted on the same model TTs. But unless I used a single cartridge in one arm on a particular TT and then removed the cartridge and fitted it to another sample of the arm, which was in turn fitted to the previous TT, I wouldn't be able to come to such a definite conclusion.
Vrajbasi
13-08-2018, 10:23
So have I; same model SME arms, mounted on the same model TTs. But unless I used a single cartridge in one arm on a particular TT and then removed the cartridge and fitted it to another sample of the arm, which was in turn fitted to the previous TT, I wouldn't be able to come to such a definite conclusion.
Spot on barry thats what I have and always do when comparing arms two samples of cartridges can make differences also being ultra careful on set in a must even vta changes can have a vast impact.
I have a Fidelity Research FR-12 tonearm on my pre Cirkus LP12 and it out performs on every count the Cirkus bearing LP12/Ittock I had before with the same tonearm and the same amps and speakers.
Not in the same league as it's stable mate the FR-64S (which I would love to hear) as it was designed as a cheaper FR-14 specially for the late 70's LP12 as an alternative to the Grace I believe. The engineering that has gone into this arm is exceptional and if you take into account fettling by Phonomac which I will have done in the autumn you could own this fantastic tonearm for under £500.
I don't know whether it would fit onto the decks you describe but if it does then you could do a lot worse for the money.
martinswimmer
19-08-2018, 17:02
Just to add my vote to the already mentioned tonearms - AudioCraft/UltraCraft, Stax UA and Hadcock - all unipivot designs (damped in case of Stax and AudioCraft) . Obviously, with cartridges to match.
Vrajbasi
19-08-2018, 19:26
Spent the afternoon setting up my Shun Mook modified SAEC 407/23 tonearm with a shun mook cartridge have not listened to it for over 6 years stunning
Robert Onion
21-08-2018, 07:23
Am looking to find a most musical tonearm for my future projects. I need one For either or
Thorens 124, Lenco 75, Technics Sp15,
Ar-Ta/Xa
I bought my first tonearm in 1985 when I was a student in Manchester in 1985.......a Mayware Formula and it was a lovely fluid sounding arm. I’ve had several since over the years from Linn, Rega, Nottingham Analogue, SME, - but my favourite arm for sheer sound quality is the Funk FXR ll. Truly neutral and gets the best out of cartridges IMHE.
Vrajbasi
21-08-2018, 10:57
Anything Arthur produces is truly wonderful generally not always the best built but stunning in terms of performance and ideas. I would love to hear his new Statement arm I visited the Munich show this this year hoping to see it I later found outer that some cleaver individual knocked the arm over and damaged it so he was unable to dem the new turntables looks stunning too.
I bought my first tonearm in 1985 when I was a student in Manchester in 1985.......a Mayware Formula and it was a lovely fluid sounding arm. I’ve had several since over the years from Linn, Rega, Nottingham Analogue, SME, - but my favourite arm for sheer sound quality is the Funk FXR ll. Truly neutral and gets the best out of cartridges IMHE.
Currently enjoying the Mayware in my present set up Ant, with Lenco 75/ decca line contact cartridge. Soon as the needle drops the clarity of sound amazes me straightaway, just a rightness to it somehow.
There was one guy on here a few years ago who claimed that in 35 years of listening to decca cartridges he liked the mayware with it best of all.
A Decca cartridge with a Mayware arm was always a good combination, as was a Decca with Hadcock arm combination.
I have both (well actually the 3012, not the 3012R, the latter of which uses a stainless steel arm rather than aluminium of the earlier 3012) and agree with you - but the bearings for motion in the vertical plane are quite different, and hence the two will 'sound' different.
Yup, and the stainless steel arm-tube, as opposed to a magnesium one (in the case of the 'V', previously discussed) is also one of the main reasons why SME's 'modern' tonearms sound markedly different from their traditional designs, such as you own in the 3012 - but unfortunately few folks consider that *key* aspect of the design.
I'm on record here as stating on numerous occasions (based on considerable experience) that well-engineered stainless-steel arms (due to the nature of their resonance characteristics) add 'life' to the sound of music reproduced, in a way that magnesium-based arms deaden, thus suck the life out of in comparison, but which is mistaken as 'neutrality', simply because magnesium (as a material) has excellent dampening properties, thus allows tonearms constructed from such to measure favourably.
They might measure well, but as is often the case in hi-fi, superficially 'excellent measurements' don't always guarantee the best sound, or indeed one which is considered as 'musical' (in the way I've described).
It's that type of 'neutrality', arrived at through excessive dampening (via the use of magnesium), which gives the SME V, for example (and all of SME's other arms in the same range) that 'coolness' and superficial lack of character - but in actuality, the 'character' ably exists, in the form of the effect on the music, of said dampening.
It's why, whenever you listen to a cartridge (ANY cartridge) on an SME V, superficially it sounds good, in that you can't pinpoint anything obviously wrong, sonically, but musically it never quite gets your 'juices flowing', even when the music played demands that type of response from the listener, and you find yourself in the odd position of being 'impressed' with the sound, but also somehow rather disconnected, emotionally, from the music....
A few classic (iconic) Japanese tonearms, both old an new, have been mentioned on this thread, and highly recommended, such as the FR64 and Ikeda, both of which are extremely well engineered, as indeed was the SME 3009 and 3012 (I'd also throw in my own Ortofon RS-212D into the mix, as it too is based on classic high-end Jap engineering). So what's one thing that they all have in common? I'll tell you: stainless steel arm-tubes!;)
And here's the thing: do you honestly think that if magnesium was such a great material *sonically*, for arm-tubes, that the Japs wouldn't have used it when designing the type of 'statement' tonearms mentioned above? I don't think so...
Therefore, Barry, I *guarantee* that if you replaced your 3009, with a Series V, or your 3012, with a 312S, you'd instantly hear the magnesium dampening effect I've described, and both the Series V and 312S robbing the sound of some 'life', in comparison with their respective stainless-steel tonearm counterparts. That's why the 'sleepers' in the current SME range are the Series M2-9R (and M2), and Series M2-12R - all use SS arm-tubes. And that, my friends, if you're an SME fan, is where you'll get the biggest bang for your buck!
if SME weren't the type of company who judge their products so heavily on engineering prowess, and how well stuff measures, which don't get me wrong is very important, but it's not the be-all-and-end-all (after all what's effectively being designed is an instrument for reproducing music, not an engine to power an aircraft), then they might've cottoned onto the fact that magnesium is not necessarily the best material, *sonically*, from which to construct the arm-tube of a tonearm - and so wouldn't showcase/market their magnesium arms as representing the top models in their range...
Alas, they seem blissfully ignorant of such. However, they know that people will buy their products, based on reputation, and on how good they look (and feel) in use, which undoubtedly are areas that ALL SME arms excel in. And of course, their magnesium-based ones don't sound bad, far from it; simply a little 'soulless', but they look and feel great, therefore it's easy to understand their widespread appeal and huge success. Dig a little deeper though, and apply some lateral thinking, and their musical flaws become immediately obvious.
Marco.
montesquieu
23-08-2018, 21:53
Totally with you on this Marco, I have had a magnesium SME IV as well as a number of SS arms (including SME 3009, Ortofon AS212, Townshend Excalibur, AO PU7 and PU12), the best of them being the Ortofon 309i, FR64S, and my current Ikeda IT-407 and IT345CR1 - and all the SS arms had more life than the SME IV or V ... I can see where the SMEs might come into their own, where there was something lively about the deck perhaps .. but with a neutral deck like an SP10 or TD124 the SS arms have a strong advantage in my view.
BTW I sold Barry my Ortofon RMG 309 :) as well as (very recently) an Ikeda 9C III to use on it .. suspect that's a combination made in heaven. Waiting to hear impressions ...
flapland
23-08-2018, 22:01
Currently enjoying the Mayware in my present set up Ant, with Lenco 75/ decca line contact cartridge. Soon as the needle drops the clarity of sound amazes me straightaway, just a rightness to it somehow.
There was one guy on here a few years ago who claimed that in 35 years of listening to decca cartridges he liked the mayware with it best of all.
Never heard a Decca or Mayware so would be good to listen if you up for it. Decca is one of those itches which I suspect will need to be scratched.
walpurgis
23-08-2018, 22:15
Never heard a Decca
Once heard, never forgotten! Nothing else is quite the same. Not to everybody's taste, but I like them.
Oh. And they are not as arm fussy as some make out. I even tried a Decca London Blue in a PL-12D with an ADC magnesium headshell and it worked surprisingly well.
Totally with you on this Marco, I have had a magnesium SME IV as well as a number of SS arms (including SME 3009, Ortofon AS212, Townshend Excalibur, AO PU7 and PU12), the best of them being the Ortofon 309i, FR64S, and my current Ikeda IT-407 and IT345CR1 - and all the SS arms had more life than the SME IV or V ... I can see where the SMEs might come into their own, where there was something lively about the deck perhaps .. but with a neutral deck like an SP10 or TD124 the SS arms have a strong advantage in my view.
I think, Tom, if like you and I, you've had a lot of experience of owning and/or hearing many different types of arms and cartridges, on different turntables, in a familiar context, including, in that respect, those from SME, then you eventually get a good handle on what they're doing, sonically and musically. Therefore, I feel it's no accident that our respective experiences in that area are pretty much identical:)
Like I said before, and which you've also just touched upon, synergy also comes into play, and in that respect there's definitely a symbiotic relationship between the likes of an SME V and Michell Gyrodec or Orbe, where it's all about the successful SUM of the parts, rather than necessarily the efficacy of any one single component. Therefore, ultimately achieving that type of synergy with any make of T/T, arm and/or cartridge, is the key to musical nirvana.
However, that of course doesn't negate our (justified) opinions of SME's magnesium-based tonearms, when used in other contexts, in comparison with the best examples of SS arms, particularly where the sonic signature we've both identified in the SME V, or IV (a lack of 'life'), becomes immediately apparent.
BTW I sold Barry my Ortofon RMG 309 as well as (very recently) an Ikeda 9C III to use on it .. suspect that's a combination made in heaven. Waiting to hear impressions ...
So am I... If he uses that combo on his TD-124, I think it'll blow him away... So Bazza, get yer arse in gear, and get it all set up and assessed, pronto (with pics)!;)
Marco.
Never heard a Decca or Mayware so would be good to listen if you up for it. Decca is one of those itches which I suspect will need to be scratched.
Will pm you tomorrow Paul, thanks.
A bit of confusion here: The Mk.I SME Series 3000 arms used a stainless steel arm tube. The Mk.II versions used an aluminium arm tube. The -R (revised) versions of the 3000 series arms returned to the use of stainless steel for the arm tube, as do the newer M series arms.
As I said, I have an SME 3012 Mk.II arm (with aluminium arm tube) and an M12-R (using a stainless steel arm tube); however because the vertical motion knife-edge bearings of the 3012 have been replaced with radial ball races in the M12-R, it is not a straightforward matter to ascribe sonic changes to the arm tube alone. Yes, IMO, the M12-R is the better of the two, but that could well be down to the improved bearings.
The internal damping properties of stainless steel, aluminium and magnesium are different. Stainless steel is stiffer and more 'springy' - I would expect it to have a sharper, brighter and more 'lively' sound.
Probably a matter of taste, but I think the deck and arm should be essentially neutral, leaving 'character' to the cartridge. "Tonearms" went out with the acoustic gramophone!
... If he uses that combo on his TD-124, I think it'll blow him away... So Bazza, get yer arse in gear, and get it all set up and assessed, pronto (with pics)!;)
Marco.
I have three TD124/IIs, so what I'll try to do is to set up an SME M12-R on one and the Ortofon 309i on a second; swapping the Ikeda cartridge between the two.
Be patient.
Hi Barry,
A bit of confusion here: The Mk.I SME Series 3000 arms used a stainless steel arm tube. The Mk.II versions used an aluminium arm tube. The -R (revised) versions of the 3000 series arms returned to the use of stainless steel for the arm tube, as do the newer M series arms.
Yup, thanks for the clarification My essential point though, remains, in that, in my experience, well-engineered stainless steel arms, whether from SME, Fidelity Research, Ikeda or Ortofon, sound better than SME's Magnesium-based arms, such as the Series V, which is touted as being among the best you can buy. Well, not for me it isn't...
As I said, I have an SME 3012 Mk.II arm (with aluminium arm tube) and an M12-R (using a stainless steel arm tube); however because the vertical motion knife-edge bearings of the 3012 have been replaced with radial ball races in the M12-R, it is not a straightforward matter to ascribe sonic changes to the arm tube alone. Yes, IMO, the M12-R is the better of the two, but that could well be down to the improved bearings.
The comparison it would be interesting for you to make is replacing the likes of your 3012, with a 312S. I *guarantee* that it would not be an overall sonic upgrade (for reasons outlined)!;)
The internal damping properties of stainless steel, aluminium and magnesium are different. Stainless steel is stiffer and more 'springy' - I would expect it to have a sharper, brighter and more 'lively' sound.
Precisely, and it does. However, not in an 'in yer face' kind of way; just simply imbuing music with the requisite amount of 'life', in order to make it sound dynamic and real. Not robbed of said 'life', which to my ears results in the use of tonearms with magnesium arm-tubes, due to over-dampening the sound, and subsequently not allowing music to 'breathe'.
And none of the renowned SS arms, mentioned above, including your M12-R, sound bright in an undesirable way, which is testament to the efficacy of stainless steel as an arm-tube material.
Probably a matter of taste, but I think the deck and arm should be essentially neutral, leaving 'character' to the cartridge. "Tonearms" went out with the acoustic gramophone!
Yes, I largely agree. However, the point is I don't consider the likes of an SME V as 'neutral' - far from it, as I can distinctly hear its 'character' (as described)!
Marco.
I have three TD124/IIs, so what I'll try to do is to set up an SME M12-R on one and the Ortofon 309i on a second; swapping the Ikeda cartridge between the two.
Be patient.
No problem. I look forward to your findings:cool:
Marco.
Vrajbasi
26-08-2018, 07:58
I have owned many sme arms since 1975 and still own a few the M12R in my opinion is the un sung hero of the range a superb sounding tonearm in my humble opinion better sounding than any of my 3012 and 3012r tonearms obviously cartridge depending etc, as regards to the newer arms I recently got hold a special build all silver arm which my dealer commisioned some time back, he had a few 312 arms made in 2015 with a newer aluminium arm tube and higher speced bearings all in silver with ikeda wire to my ears was so much more natural and fleshed out than any of the Magnesium arms the Magnesium has its virtus but the aluminium arm is far far far more musical and overall less academic sounding. I own a V-12 and a 312s as part of my twelve inch collection and a older 312 but this newer aluminium tonearm is far nicer sounding. That said I use a Kondo badged V-12 day to day. I have actually heard a Aluminium series V at my dealers place it was a prototype and it does sound spectacularly good. I have also heard a 3012 r with V-12 speced bearings sounds very nice too. I am also convinced no two sme tonearms sound identical after all whoever is building them is only human.
martinjohn308
26-08-2018, 08:02
I’ve owned many tone arms over the last 50 years and i’ve Had the Naim Aro for the last 12 years. Does everything I want it to do.
Regards,
Martin
Vrajbasi
26-08-2018, 08:32
I’ve owned many tone arms over the last 50 years and i’ve Had the Naim Aro for the last 12 years. Does everything I want it to do.
Regards,
Martin
Lovely arm has its own charm I owned one on a Pink Triangle Anni many years back wobbly as jelly but it did sound good better than the Anni graham 2.2 combo I had at the time
Vrajbasi
26-08-2018, 08:40
No problem. I look forward to your findings:cool:
Marco.
I will be certainly interesting I have a friend in Germany who owns a Schopper 124 with a M-12r and a ikeda Kai and a Ortofon 309i he greatly prefers his M-12r he says its more balanced with great air and detail while he thinks the 309i has a stronger bass with a bit more impact. I look forward to what barry thinks too. I have heard only the sme at his place and it does sound rather good on the 124.
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