View Full Version : Can SE amps play Rage Against The Machine
jahsavage
24-05-2018, 12:46
My tastes in music leans towards the noisy and bass heavy which is rarely the type of music you hear at Hi-Fi shows. As much as I tried I can't get into Tibetan Monks chiming bells.
My current system plays highly dynamic rock very well, I have TW Raven GT Turntable, Groove SRX+, Zanden Preamp, Icon Audio mb90mkII, Living Voice OBX-RW and DB1 sub woofer.
Just recently a pair of Aspara HL1 horns came my way and have established themselves like an attention seeking brat of a cuckoo in the nest.
Initially they sounded dreadful and they do most of the time until everything is perfect then they sing like a canary and play reggae like its suppose to be.
The HL1 are 100db+ sensitive so I was thinking are there are any SE amps that can really rock?
Aspara Horns (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JPn1TzcWhRWAtx5zpWVqxtfWk4DNbd_S/view)
They can all rock into the right speakers!
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Mines can!
Speaker matching, ironmongery and power supply quality is everything.
Yup, Gaz is right. Particularly with the first one [that can't be stressed enough, so think easy load and high-efficiency], in terms of SET amps. Get that right, along with the rest of what he's mentioned, and they'll rock with the best of them! :hairmetal::fingers:
Marco.
jahsavage
24-05-2018, 16:22
Yes, I see the gaping beak waiting for giant worms to be dropped in :lol:
In my experience SE valve amps can do Tibetan monks chiming bells but can't do Metallica at full tilt.
Maybe I'm showing my age by even mentioning Metallica but I have no idea who the latest noisy metal merchants are.
Very witty - what about an Almarro A318B, they look mean!
I was at the last Windsor show and one very expensive system tried playing Killing Jokes first album - it was like Radio 2 with about as much threat as a cup of tea.
Very witty - what about an Almarro A318B, they look mean!
I was at the last Windsor show and one very expensive system tried playing Killing Jokes first album - it was like Radio 2 with about as much threat as a cup of tea.
Bad example...and you’ve been tainted.
Single ended amps can do everything you’ve read about..absolutely.
In honour of your question I fired on Rage’s debut album (big fan here) and the bassline at the start of “Bullet In The Head” you could feel going through your bones.
Snap of snare drum and anger and spit of vocals is all there...better than any solid state amp I’ve heard or owned has done it.. all from 8 watts per channel.
Biggest takeaway (as Marco says) is get the speaker right.
As with all hifi related questions, the answer is “It depends...” ?
Single ended amps live in a Universe of their own and demand a bit more care on what you pair em with.
Get that equation right (and its not mythical Voodoo, pay attention to the speakers) and you’ll not hear a better sounding system.
Really.
I'd drop Jake, Lord Mortlock a PM. He loved his Almarro and I'd be surprised if he didn't own Asparas at one stage, he seems to have owned most things!
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jahsavage
24-05-2018, 21:16
Bad example...and you’ve been tainted.
Single ended amps can do everything you’ve read about..absolutely.
In honour of your question I fired on Rage’s debut album (big fan here) and the bassline at the start of “Bullet In The Head” you could feel going through your bones.
Snap of snare drum and anger and spit of vocals is all there...better than any solid state amp I’ve heard or owned has done it.. all from 8 watts per channel.
Really.
There is nothing like a spiked question to start some debate but to my mind good HiFi should be able to express all the emotions from passion to anger but many systems seem to focus solely upon passion and forget the other emotions. I'm pleased to learn there are SE amps out there that are not all sugar but can you please name them so I can have a listen myself - thanks.
Loudness The physical strength and amplitude of a sound - Intensity, power, or anger
Melody The linear succession of musical tones that the listener perceives as a single entity - Complementing harmonies: happiness, relaxation, serenity. Clashing harmonies: excitement, anger, unpleasantness.
Tempo The speed or pace of a musical piece - Fast tempo:happiness, excitement, anger. Slow tempo: sadness, serenity.
Mode The type of scale - Major tonality: happiness, joy, Minor tonality: sadness.
chris@panteg
25-05-2018, 05:57
Paul, like I mentioned in your welcome thread, put the puresound 845 on a short list.
Another possibility is the Art Audio Diavolo, I had a great listening session last Sunday at John's, who is now a member on here.
They certainly rocked through his Snell type E which have been effectively converted to Audionote E's, I'll pop back round and try it with Rage Against the Machine and see what happens.
anthonyTD
25-05-2018, 07:59
I play what I call real world music, which is; a bit of everything, and My Soul Single ended amps cope quite well, ask anyone who's heard them ;)
But I agree, you have to partner things well, and that goes for all types of amplification! :)
A...
Haselsh1
25-05-2018, 08:22
Absolutely they can but quite possibly not how you'd like it to sound
:eyebrows:
Actually, whilst I completely agree with all the comments emphasising the importance of speaker and amp matching, I think Shaun (Haselsh1) also makes a very valid point. I have Rage Against the Machine's eponymous debut album and on my non-horn and non-single ended amp system it sounds incredibly tight and punchy. Now a very sensitive horn system with SET amps will certainly go as loud as it does at my house but it will present the music in a quite different way.
anthonyTD
25-05-2018, 08:53
A good push-pull solid state/ or valve amps ability to stop and start when needed, is a huge act to follow where conventional Single ended amps are concerned, However; you can get close with single ended, whilest still maintaning most of the virtues we associate with good single ended amps.:)
Actually, whilst I completely agree with all the comments emphasising the importance of speaker and amp matching, I think Shaun (Haselsh1) also makes a very valid point. I have Rage Against the Machine's eponymous debut album and on my non-horn and non-single ended amp system it sounds incredibly tight and punchy. Now a very sensitive horn system with SET amps will certainly go as loud as it does at my house but it will present the music in a quite different way.
Mines is a non commercial SET power amp built by Nick Gorham, so other than giving Nick an idea of your budget and have him build you one (best sound for your budget and way better than a commercial amp for same price imo), cant really recommend any, sorry!
Good SET amps don't come cheap unfortunately, but I've heard the World Audio Design amps are pretty good?
There's an old argument in the valve amp world between Push-Pull and SET, with fans of both types.
SET amps don't do rock, and Push-Pull doesn't do vocals as good as SET.
As always with these things, it ain't necessarily so.
Can speak to SET amps doing rock so its bollocks! :)
There is nothing like a spiked question to start some debate but to my mind good HiFi should be able to express all the emotions from passion to anger but many systems seem to focus solely upon passion and forget the other emotions. I'm pleased to learn there are SE amps out there that are not all sugar but can you please name them so I can have a listen myself - thanks.
Loudness The physical strength and amplitude of a sound - Intensity, power, or anger
Melody The linear succession of musical tones that the listener perceives as a single entity - Complementing harmonies: happiness, relaxation, serenity. Clashing harmonies: excitement, anger, unpleasantness.
Tempo The speed or pace of a musical piece - Fast tempo:happiness, excitement, anger. Slow tempo: sadness, serenity.
Mode The type of scale - Major tonality: happiness, joy, Minor tonality: sadness.
I play what I call real world music, which is; a bit of everything, and My Soul Single ended amps cope quite well, ask anyone who's heard them ;)
But I agree, you have to partner things well, and that goes for all types of amplification! :)
A...
"Quite well" is an understatement, however, as you well know, their design is far from conventional, with them featuring the rather novel solid-state aspect of things. Also, if someone wanted a pair of monos built today, how much would you be asking, something like £15 grand?
That would be out of most people's price range, although they'd be getting a pair of amps, which if produced, say, by someone such as AudioNote, would retail for probably £50k! And yours would almost certainly sound better.
My point being, however, (and indeed as Gaz has also said, which I know you too will agree with) is that the best valve amps, either SET or push-pull, simply don't come cheap, as you can't get away with cutting corners, like you can with some SS amps.
Ultimately, everything revolves around the size and quality of the transformers, and in general, good valve amps are also more labour intensive to build, especially those that are hardwired, point to point! :cool:
Marco.
Now a very sensitive horn system with SET amps will certainly go as loud as it does at my house but it will present the music in a quite different way.
Indeed, but presenting the music differently is quite a different thing from being 'able to rock', or not. The point is, that the best valve amps, SET or push-pull, when used with the right speakers, don't lack 'grunt' - far from it!:)
One thing I would say though about the P/P vs. SET thing, is that I always prefer having a good few watts in reserve (at least into double figures), in order to prevent my amp(s) 'running out of steam', when/if used in more demanding environments than they're normally used to.
It's like hsving a car with a big engine: that sense of 'effortlessness', when driving at high speeds, is invaluable. It always pays to have ample reserves of power - and that applies to amps as much as it does engines.
Marco.
All the systems I have heard with SET amps and big horn speakers have been useless at doing rock recordings. Like a transistor radio sort of sound.
It's unusual, but the bottom line with anything is how well what's used has been implemented, and in that respect, the best designers can often make good sounds from a cheap collection of parts. Ultimately, it's all about experience and know-how.
However, in your example, you could pretty much guarantee that if the transformers used were replaced for higher quality versions of the same electrical value, the sound would be even better!;)
Marco.
All the systems I have heard with SET amps and big horn speakers have been useless at doing rock recordings. Like a transistor radio sort of sound.
There are other types of high-efficiency speakers available, than simply out-and-out horns. Tannoy DCs, for example, or the Eddingdales that Gaz uses;)
Either of which will 'rock da house', in a reasonable sized room, with a good SET amp.
Marco.
Getting plenty of volume out of a horn/SET system isn't really problem. Getting rock music to play loudly without becoming a confused mess is where SETs fall down, in my experience. Maybe there are SETs that will do it and I just haven't experienced them, but I would advise the OP to hear for himself before parting with any cash.
In theory you can do it with very sensitive speakers, which is what everyone seems to be saying. I've got a low power valve amp and use it with 96db efficiency speakers but it will not go to the SPL I require for rock music without getting a little 'messy'
To go above that you need proper horn loading and then you introduce a whole new raft of problems with colouration unless it is a multi-way system.
Maybe there are SETs that will do it and I just haven't experienced them, but I would advise the OP to hear for himself before parting with any cash.
Trust me, Andrew, there are, but the best ones are neither commercially available, nor cheap. As a general rule of thumb, if you want top-notch performance, I'd avoid buying a valve amp (SET or P/P), built outside of China, that costs under £5k.
Marco.
rock usually likes a bit of grunt, although my speakers do a reasonable job. they are fairly fast tho
In theory you can do it with very sensitive speakers, which is what everyone seems to be saying. I've got a low power valve amp and use it with 96db efficiency speakers but it will not go to the SPL I require for rock music without getting a little 'messy'
It would if it was built better (read as, the designer had more budget available to spend on higher-quality parts). Therefore, its low power is not necessarily the limiting factor. Remember, it's not what you've got, but how you use it!;)
You need to hear Gaz's Nick G-designed 8W SET amp, into his (92db - correct me here if necessary, Gaz) Eddingdales, in his room. There is NOTHING "messy" about the sound, nor is there any lack of 'grunt', which proves that SETs *can* rock, IF they're designed and paired with properly, speaker-wise, and you're not trying to use them in a stupidly big room.
Marco.
It would if it was built better (read as, the designer had more budget available to spend on higher-quality parts). Therefore, its low power is not necessarily the limiting factor. Remember, it's not what you've got, but how you use it!;)
You need to hear Gaz's Nick G-designed 8W SET amp, into his (92db - correct me here if necessary, Gaz) Eddingdales, in his room. There is NOTHING "messy" about the sound, nor is there any lack of 'grunt', which proves that SETs *can* rock, IF they're designed and paired with properly, speaker-wise, and you're not trying to use them in a stupidly big room.
Marco.
Well my room is a factor in that I agree. I've no idea how large Gaz's room is.
The limiting factor in my room is the amplifier's power output and nothing to do with the quality of the parts.
The Edingdales are 94db efficient, with an easy 8 Ohm load.
Very easy to drive, and even with a "mighty" 8 or 9 watts on tap (depends on how you measure it) I cant get the volume past 10 o clock without pictureframes and a wall mounted acoustic guitar shaking themselves to bits.
So plenty volume, but not just volume but deep tight TUNEFUL bass.
The Edingdales go down to low 30's Hz and with an amp where the damping factor matches its deep and TIGHT.
My amp was designed specifically for my speakers,
so the SET amp/speaker voodoo thing is as good as it can be I guess.
The amp is probably not a typical SET amp to be fair, aside Nick Gorhams technical wizardry the solid state regulation circuits are the product of the guys over at Audio Talk (DIY forum) getting their collective guru heads together and coming up with the circuit.
State of the art and better than probably most commercial solutions.
As Nick said, He wanted to see what happened when he surrounded SET with solid state, and he was "pleased" how the amp turned out.
The transformers were the largest part of the cost, handwound, long waiting time and not cheap.
Anyway,
the point of all that was to go back to my earlier point:
SET amps need a bit of extra thought to get them to show what they really can do and as Marco says, it ain't cheap to do it right.
But model your system around that, the speaker choice and don't run the system in an exhibition hall and there's real magic there...trousers flapping, driving deep, tight low end...great for rock. :)
Get the speakers right and a SET amp will shift air as good as anything else.
My rooms not massive, but not tiny either...about 5 x 4 I think.
As with most questions Hifi related there's no one single answer, except...it depends.
Valve choice can make a difference to, had 3 different types of 300B in my amp now and unfortunately you get what you pay for with those too.
It would if it was built better (read as, the designer had more budget available to spend on higher-quality parts). Therefore, its low power is not necessarily the limiting factor. Remember, it's not what you've got, but how you use it!;)
You need to hear Gaz's Nick G-designed 8W SET amp, into his (92db - correct me here if necessary, Gaz) Eddingdales, in his room. There is NOTHING "messy" about the sound, nor is there any lack of 'grunt', which proves that SETs *can* rock, IF they're designed and paired with properly, speaker-wise, and you're not trying to use them in a stupidly big room.
Marco.
anthonyTD
25-05-2018, 20:26
I agree ie the cost aspect, :) and yes, in my Hibrid single ended amps, they use a lot of semiconductor circuitry to control "All aspects of the valve, so that it is held rock steady, even the heater circuits are unique, in that they do not use conventional regulators, but a form of single ended power amps of their own! I produced these amps over 15 years ago now, and although there are probably some things I may have done diffrently, they're sonic performance Always make me smile, when I get chance to realy listen to them...:)
"Quite well" is an understatement, however, as you well know, their design is far from conventional, with them featuring the rather novel solid-state aspect of things. Also, if someone wanted a pair of monos built today, how much would you be asking, something like £15 grand?
That would be out of most people's price range, although they'd be getting a pair of amps, which if produced, say, by someone such as AudioNote, would retail for probably £50k! And yours would almost certainly sound better.
My point being, however, (and indeed as Gaz has also said, which I know you too will agree with) is that the best valve amps, either SET or push-pull, simply don't come cheap, as you can't get away with cutting corners, like you can with some SS amps.
Ultimately, everything revolves around the size and quality of the transformers, and in general, good valve amps are also more labour intensive to build, especially those that are hardwired, point to point! :cool:
Marco.
I agree ie the cost aspect, :) and yes, in my Hibrid single ended amps, they use a lot of semiconductor circuitry to control "All aspects of the valve, so that it is held rock steady, even the heater circuits are unique, in that they do not use conventional regulators, but a form of single ended power amps of their own! I produced these amps over 15 years ago now, and although there are probably some things I may have done diffrently, they're sonic performance Always make me smile, when I get chance to realy listen to them...:)
Absolutely.
Regulation and power supply makes all the difference in hifi generally, but particularly with SET amps.
Anthony's another one of the few (like Nick) who really knows his valve onions, be interesting to compare notes sometime.
The limiting factor in my room is the amplifier's power output and nothing to do with the quality of the parts.
Or, your room's too big for any [low-powered] SET amp to 'drive', regardless of the speakers used. However, that's not the fault of the amp; simply that you're using it in the wrong room.
Gary's set up, in that respect, ably demonstrates that a SET valve amp can 'boogie' with the best of them, given half a chance!
TBH, if you look at things differently, and more positively, getting a SET valve amp forces you to be more disciplined than usual about room and speaker matching, both of which are crucial to obtaining a good sound, so it could be argued that folk who own such gear will, for that reason, potentially have better sounding systems than most;)
Marco.
Or, your room's too big for any low-powered SET amp to 'drive', regardless of the speakers used. However, that's not the fault of the amp; simply that you're using it in the wrong room.
Gary's set up, in that respect, ably demonstrates that a SET valve amp can 'boogie' with the best of them, given the chance!
TBH, if you look at things differently, and more positively, getting a SET valve amp forces you to be more disciplined than usual about room and speaker matching, both of which are crucial to obtaining a good sound, so it could be argued that folk who own such gear will, for that reason, potentially have better sounding systems than most;)
Marco.
What I suppose I was trying to say was I like the sound of SET amps but in my room I would need to use horns to get the clean levels I want and I don't like horns unless they are multi way like Speedy Steve's. And having a multi-way horn array like that constructed is out of my league.
They do have a magic to them that no other type of amplifier has.
That's fairy muff :)
Marco.
Martin,
Get a smaller listening room! :D
(PS wish mines was bigger!)
What I suppose I was trying to say was I like the sound of SET amps but in my room I would need to use horns to get the clean levels I want and I don't like horns unless they are multi way like Speedy Steve's. And having a multi-way horn array like that constructed is out of my league.
They do have a magic to them that no other type of amplifier has.
Martin,
Get a smaller listening room! :D
(PS wish mines was bigger!)
I can't downsize any further I'm already at the bottom of the market. As those who have visited me will attest. But the room is big with high ceilings and open plan to upstairs. Speakers are 20' from couch. So the 4w SECA doesn't deliver the clean wallop that does it for me. Although stuff like acoustic Neil Young sounds fantastic through it. But I demand a system that will rock out too.
Anyway, I'm solving all my problems with some Tannoy Ardens :)
I can't downsize any further I'm already at the bottom of the market. As those who have visited me will attest. But the room is big with high ceilings and open plan to upstairs. Speakers are 20' from couch. So the 4w SECA doesn't deliver the clean wallop that does it for me. Although stuff like acoustic Neil Young sounds fantastic through it. But I demand a system that will rock out too.
Anyway, I'm solving all my problems with some Tannoy Ardens :)
Room/ Speaker things what its all about.
The Ardens will do what it takes, nice speeks those!
Stratmangler
25-05-2018, 21:37
Martin
What you need is some 10" DC drivered, MLTL beasties like these
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/colin/SP310CX%20MLTL17.JPG
walpurgis
25-05-2018, 21:44
I rather like my small listening 'den'. The 12" Tannoys work great in there.
I rather like my small listening 'den'. The 12" Tannoys work great in there.
Don't need big area if you get all the relationships right, the Gaffers main system(with Tannoys) are all in a very small room.
Synergy synergy synergy.
That wallpaper seems familiar...
Martin
What you need is some 10" DC drivered, MLTL beasties like these
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/colin/SP310CX%20MLTL17.JPG
I'm solving all my problems with some Tannoy Ardens :)
Good call :thumbsup:
Stratmangler
25-05-2018, 22:13
That wallpaper seems familiar...
It does, doesn't it? :eyebrows:
Saw Ali earlier in that particular den, and he likes what they do .....
walpurgis
25-05-2018, 22:19
If you want a bit of valve grunt, a Carver Silver 9 set-up may do the trick. 540 wpc ain't bad!
http://i66.tinypic.com/24486l2.jpg
The short answer is, Yes! Absolutely!
But will it slam like a 300 watt Krell driving my 5 foot tall Legacy’s, with two 12’s per side? Perhaps not.
Buy the system for the way you listen.
Russell
Ali Tait
26-05-2018, 07:08
It does, doesn't it? :eyebrows:
Saw Ali earlier in that particular den, and he likes what they do .....
Yes, listening to those and Colin’s 96db OB’s with my mighty 4w OTL, which yes, rocked like a bastard with some Evanescence amongst other stuff.
So I’d also recommend an OTL- fast, clean and unravels any track with ease no matter how busy it is. Great bass too..
Ah yes, and of course there is the open-baffle angle too, in terms of appropriate (high-efficiency) speakers to use with SET valve amps. So it's not just big horns, which for some reason everyone seems to think of - there are other options, too!:)
No "transistor radio sort of sound" with rock music, with any of those :nono:
Marco.
anthonyTD
26-05-2018, 08:57
Which are a horn if you think about it!;)
Anyway, I'm solving all my problems with some Tannoy Ardens :)
Which are a horn if you think about it!;)
Not on the bass though. Horn loaded bass is the big problem for me. That hollowness to the sound. I like my bass rich and slightly phat, west coast style.
I could happily live with what I have now really. But the opportunity to get some big Tannoys appeared and I couldn't resist. With a Krell amp driving them I suspect playing RATM will bring the world to an end in powerful but slightly analytical glory :)
walpurgis
26-05-2018, 09:42
Horn loaded bass is the big problem for me. That hollowness to the sound.
That's a characteristic of many BL and FL horns. Due to their nature and of course, lack of damping.
Their are other options, a reflex horn works on all levels done right, but is not a pure horn type. You may have noticed the hugely solid bass from those vast flare loaded reflex boxes reggae bands like using. No 'hollowness' there.
That's a characteristic of many BL and FL horns. Due to their nature and of course, lack of damping.
Their are other options, a reflex horn works on all levels done right, but is not a pure horn type. You may have noticed the hugely solid bass from those vast flare loaded reflex boxes reggae bands like using. No 'hollowness' there.
Yes, it is the front and back loaded horns that are not for me. Flared multi-way I am fine with.
jahsavage
26-05-2018, 10:32
If you want a bit of valve grunt, a Carver Silver 9 set-up may do the trick. 540 wpc ain't bad!
http://i66.tinypic.com/24486l2.jpg
I heard a smaller version of this amp with Carver electrostatics panels and an Oracle turntable at the Bristol show in 1986, they played my Dexter Gordon album One Flight Up. It was the first time I'd ever heard a door playing music - one of those early unforgettable experiences.
If only I could afford Capt Nimo's submarine to go with those amps.
anthonyTD
26-05-2018, 10:33
:)
Not on the bass though. Horn loaded bass is the big problem for me. That hollowness to the sound. I like my bass rich and slightly phat, west coast style.
I could happily live with what I have now really. But the opportunity to get some big Tannoys appeared and I couldn't resist. With a Krell amp driving them I suspect playing RATM will bring the world to an end in powerful but slightly analytical glory :)
They remind me of crates full of empties.
anthonyTD
26-05-2018, 10:35
Those are just nuts,:eek: but in a good way!:)
I heard a smaller version of this amp with Carver electrostatics panels and an Oracle turntable at the Bristol show in 1986, they played my Dexter Gordon album One Flight Up. It was the first time I'd ever heard a door playing music - one of those early unforgettable experiences.
If only I could afford Capt Nimo's submarine to go with those amps.
jahsavage
26-05-2018, 10:45
So from the debate that's been taken place it seems like the only way to get an SE amp to play rock and reggae is to get a custom amp especially built for the purpose.
So from the debate that's been taken place it seems like the only way to get an SE amp to play rock and reggae is to get a custom amp especially built for the purpose.
I think the general thrust was that it needs to be of top specification to be able to handle it. That might not mean getting one custom made but it will mean spending a few quid.
That's exactly it.
Go custom-made, and spend a few quid (budget for around £5k), or for something commercially produced that *might* be able to compete with that, but spend upwards of three times that amount (due to overheads, advertising costs, etc, of a commercial company, plus dealer mark-up), simply to own a 'desirable badge', but perhaps not end up with any better a sound.
The unfortunate reality with SET valve amps is that they're really an enthusiast's product, designed to be used by someone with enough experience to get them to work right, and certainly not for novices.
That's pretty much true of valve amps in general, although you get a somewhat easier ride with push-pull, simply because the choice of speakers available to you is much greater :)
Marco.
For many years I ran an Almarro 318B SET into Tannoy Westminster TWs. And it rocked pretty good.
The 318B is unusually powerful for an affordable SET, however. And the Westies did have 15” DC drivers to shift air.
My current Bryston/JBL rig uses 20 times the watts and sounds different. Not worse, not better. Just different.
Jim.
anthonyTD
26-05-2018, 15:36
:)
For many years I ran an Almarro 318B SET into Tannoy Westminster TWs. And it rocked pretty good.
The 318B is unusually powerful for an affordable SET, however. And the Westies did have 15” DC drivers to shift air.
My current Bryston/JBL rig uses 20 times the watts and sounds different. Not worse, not better. Just different.
Jim.
Paul, like I mentioned in your welcome thread, put the puresound 845 on a short list.
Another possibility is the Art Audio Diavolo, I had a great listening session last Sunday at John's, who is now a member on here.
They certainly rocked through his Snell type E which have been effectively converted to Audionote E's, I'll pop back round and try it with Rage Against the Machine and see what happens.
I had this combo, still got the amp, but moved the speakers on some years back. It was the fastest sounding system I've owned and really worked great. Lovely with acoustic to full on rock. I still recall once playing a Red Hot Chili Peppers track LOUD and causing me to raise my eyebrows and lean back as it played it with such conviction. I don't think I'll ever forget that moment!!! It also liked Killing in the name of :)
chris@panteg
28-05-2018, 13:18
What are you using now Rick?
Paul, have you heard or know anything about the Kronzilla? Google it because that is one hell of an amp but out of reach for most.
The largest triode valve I know of.
What are you using now Rick?
Paul, have you heard or know anything about the Kronzilla? Google it because that is one hell of an amp but out of reach for most.
The largest triode valve I know of.
I'm now using a pair of Maker Audio NL14+'s in to a pair of Snell A3's, but sometimes use my other set of speakers Peak Consult Princess System. As nice as they sound, I still miss the ANE / Art Audio pairing. The Art will drive the Snell's, but they really need a lot more power than the Art can give to keep them under control.
chris@panteg
29-05-2018, 11:31
Yes I can imagine, I think the Diavolo is a great match for the AN E's.
jahsavage
29-05-2018, 13:26
What are you using now Rick?
Paul, have you heard or know anything about the Kronzilla? Google it because that is one hell of an amp but out of reach for most.
The largest triode valve I know of.
Yes, I've heard the Kronzilla a few times but always with Wilson Benesch speakers which to my ears always give a sterile sound. For the time being I shall continue to enjoy my Icon Audios, perhaps in the autumn I'll be ready to buy again.
jahsavage
29-05-2018, 13:29
I had this combo, still got the amp, but moved the speakers on some years back. It was the fastest sounding system I've owned and really worked great. Lovely with acoustic to full on rock. I still recall once playing a Red Hot Chili Peppers track LOUD and causing me to raise my eyebrows and lean back as it played it with such conviction. I don't think I'll ever forget that moment!!! It also liked Killing in the name of :)
Tom Evans is the champion of fast transient music, his Groove SRX+ is a master piece. Perhaps his bread bins may be an option?
jahsavage
29-05-2018, 13:38
I had this combo, still got the amp, but moved the speakers on some years back. It was the fastest sounding system I've owned and really worked great. Lovely with acoustic to full on rock. I still recall once playing a Red Hot Chili Peppers track LOUD and causing me to raise my eyebrows and lean back as it played it with such conviction. I don't think I'll ever forget that moment!!! It also liked Killing in the name of :)
I've read up about the Art Audio Diavolo and this definitely seems like my sort of amp, I shall try and seek one out. Cheers Paul
I've not heard the Groove SRX so don't know what it's like. The Diavolo's don't seem to come up for sale very often, but the other amps made by AA do. I'm sure there's one for sale either here, PFM or the WW forum.
jahsavage
05-06-2018, 14:52
I've not heard the Groove SRX so don't know what it's like. The Diavolo's don't seem to come up for sale very often, but the other amps made by AA do. I'm sure there's one for sale either here, PFM or the WW forum.
So I've being doing my research and have the following on my list Shindo Cortese F2A, Soul Amplifiers, Art Audio Diavolo, Nick Gorham 'Rage' amps, Almarro A318B, Pure Sound 2A3s and M845.
I realized Nick Gorhams 'Rage' Amps, Soul Amps and the Art Audio all used solid state in varying degrees. So I thought what about Tom Evans Linear A amps? After exchanging a few emails with Tom I discovered he is a big dub reggae and rock fan and of course develops amplifiers around his tastes in music. What also came to light is that Peter Chappell designed the Soul output transformers, all of the Art Audio output ones and is also co-designer of the Linear A and B's.
Next stop looks like the Linear A Mk II. Do we have anyone here with one?
I can't recall where about you are located. I haven't used my Diavolo & Border Patrol PSU, but I'm sure I could set it up if you fancied a listen. I'm in East Sussex, but I'm close to Tunbridge Wells in Kent.
jahsavage
06-06-2018, 19:15
I can't recall where about you are located. I haven't used my Diavolo & Border Patrol PSU, but I'm sure I could set it up if you fancied a listen. I'm in East Sussex, but I'm close to Tunbridge Wells in Kent.
Thanks a lot for the offer but I'm in deepest Somerset.
TEAD UK dealer is based in East Anglia but fortunately Tom is going to let me have his Vibe/Linear A stack for home assessment.
Can only speak (more than) highly about Nick Gorhams "Rage" amps...
Solid state regulation...nothing commercial betters it.
jahsavage
07-06-2018, 09:08
Can only speak (more than) highly about Nick Gorhams "Rage" amps...
Solid state regulation...nothing commercial betters it.
I've exchanged a few emails with him, apparently he made an integrated the same time he made your mono's, he's offered to ship it to me for a listen. I asked about pricing and name, he said they did not have a name, quite an oversight I thought - so I've named them the 'Rage' Integrated and 'Rage' mono's.
I'm still keeping an open mind but I've now moved from the list stage to the listening stage.
SE valve amp and rock music? Border Patrol
The S20 or pp P20 will work a treat with the LV speakers
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
jahsavage
08-06-2018, 15:14
SE valve amp and rock music? Border Patrol
The S20 or pp P20 will work a treat with the LV speakers
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
I had that very setup with WE300B and a silver wired hot rodded version of the P20 - this might be ok for Fleetwood Mac but RATM come over like Cliff Richard. Only when I added the Icon Audio mb90s did I get real rock.
Hi Paul,
Just like to say, I admire your open-minded and methodical approach to finding the amp you're looking for. I hope you find it eventually and that it all works out well :)
Marco.
Magna Audio
08-06-2018, 20:34
As both a SET amp user and Silicon power amp user I feel it is my duty to weigh in :)
As Macca pointed out I use 3 SET amps on each of the mid, upper mid and ribbon tweeter driver channels.
Why? Because for those drivers they are a good match. 118 / 116 / 111dB per watt a 5w SET amp is sweet sounding, fast and quite, quite loud enough. Low damping factor is not an issue with super light, fast compression driver diaphragms.
The reason I would not go any where near a SET let alone a PP on the mid bass (JBL 2220 15" drivers with low Q values in FL horns) or the sub bass tapped FL horns (Eminence 15" LFII drivers) is simply to get the control needed at anything like reasonable cost, you need a high damping factor from the amplifier.
A typical push pull amp has around 25 damping factor.
SETs are lower still.
Several kilovolt tubes might do it but at what cost and danger :)
The 200w Crown amp on the mid bass horn channel has a damping factor of >150 (from memory).
On sub bass channel I have a big Cewin Vega power amp, damping factor 280!
These are very different amps to the ones I used at Scalford on the bass duty.. they were 80w T amps.
Now, use those high damping factor amps on the upper channels and it sounds very mediocre. Complete mismatch.
The high damping factor controls the bass cones effortlessly, giving that start/stop you need for tight high impact / fast bass you want for certain music types.
If you go to a live event with any kind of sound reinforcement you will be listening to the bass using similar drivers (just many of) and huge, high damping factor amps.
Things like the JBL Vertec stacks etc.
My bass channels are 110dB/w and 105dB/w btw. So not exactly power sapping but they need control. Control a SET amp just can't cost effectively provide.
Do the big amps sound any good?
Well, yes at the frequencies I'm using them at they work just fine. Mid bass frequencies are 90 to 330Hz and sub horns below 20 to 90Hz.
These are flat, 0dB responses btw. No bass roll off. In fact I like a bit more ommph at 18-25Hz for that huge room reverb Church organ experience :)
Crossover slopes also play a roll in giving a good controlled bass sounds.
Hence I use an excellent quality active DSP pre / crossover. Again not present at Scalford. Things have moved on a fair bit since then.
I've have comparatively small room, things are tuned to my tastes across all frequencies.
Never over powering, delicate and fast, brutal, deep and fast as required.
Escaping the one amp, one speaker, fixed designed crossover, one size fits all, was liberating to say the least.
For horn systems and hybrid ones too, driven by one amp it invariably means L-pads.
The horn tweeter is so much more efficient than the passive radiating cone.
These sap dynamics ime - even using the highest quality film resistors.
Hybrid speakers like Tannoys can be bi-amped (modify the X/O's), enabling a nice SET amp to drive the horn tweeter and another amp, PP or other of choice for the bass.
You can even go active ;)
jahsavage
12-06-2018, 10:06
Hi Magna Audio,
Many thanks for your detailed description of your system, reminds me of the Haute-Fidelite shops I used to visit when I lived in Paris. I would love to hear it one day but for now I'll use the pictures to scare the wife.
Magna Audio
12-06-2018, 18:27
Hi Magna Audio,
Many thanks for your detailed description of your system, reminds me of the Haute-Fidelite shops I used to visit when I lived in Paris. I would love to hear it one day but for now I'll use the pictures to scare the wife.
Hehe,
It's probably a lot more down to earth looking than boutique hifi.
The thing with prototyping is you don't know if a particular evolution is just a stepping stone to something greater or the optimum possible for the money / space / tech available.
So not much point in making it too swanky looking.
I've got the basics right for my tastes, have for some time now, and have not changed them in several years.
There have been tweaks though and next up I'm looking at improving the music server side of things.
Scare away :)
If you are ever in the area, you'd be welcome to have a listen.
jahsavage
30-03-2019, 11:03
After 10 months of searching I eventually located an Almarro A318B, I bought it via ebay and had to import it from Oz. It arrived with a broken preamp tube but fortunately I had a spare. After replacing it the amp appeared to function but I soon realized only one of the two heaters functioned on one of the large 6C33Bs tubes.
After taking the back panel off I discovered one set of heater wires near the tube base have been subjust to extreme heat and had melted a little. Fearing the transformer was damages I poked around trying to locate a good monitoring point and discovered a poor connection to the anode. After a quick resolder I was back in business but the sound was not quite right. I next spent more on interconnects than on the amp to solve excessive brightness. Now I'm in audio heaven especially for live music and jazz. For rock its as good as my Icon Audio mb90s and so the answer to my question is definitive yes.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
Next step is to upgrade the amp by using Jupiter capcitors in the signal path.
PS Written while listening to RATM
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