A Glue For Smoothing Down 5mm Of Corner Veneer?

[Minstrel SE]

Im a bit gutted as Ive managed to damage the corner of one of my Minstrels while trying to get through my room in the pitch black...yeah clever eh

It was only 1mm of bent down veneer and corner damage but I then carefully peeled back about 5mm of the veneer to have a look.probably too much as its quite a thick veneer I get OCD about things like this and perhaps I shouldnt have peeled it back so far as I will probably get a shadow crease. Its looking alright and I just need to do a bit of miniscule filling of the mdf and am only going to have about a millimetre of heavily creased veneer

I need to smooth this veneer down with small block wrapped with paper but was wondering about an Araldite type quick bond glue. Its got to be tacky and setting as I hold the block down for a few minutes. I dont think I need heat and a block should smooth it down when I have prepared the under surface well

I have some poundland epoxy mix but its a bit unreliable in critical situations. Obviously Im a bit reluctant to spend too much on glue when I only need a tiny bit.

I am just pontificating and think I will be getting some shadow creasing which ever way I do this. I meed a good filler as well. Its so small I could dab paint in there but thats not really a filler. I have some milliput but will look for a smooth consitency filler for mdf.

Oh well this may be the start of a project to completely re veneer a pair as I cant stand damaging things :)

Any suggestions for filler and glue please?
All the best
Martin

[struth]

I'd try running g an iron over it first. Often it will have enough original glue on it. Then when cold you can give it a little file

[snowman_al]

Not sure I quite understand the problem you have, but DONT use epoxy.
Any 'squeeze out' will show when set and its difficult to stop it oozing...

Try the warm iron thing first. Then there are propriety wood glues for veneer and even Resin W would be better.
The norm for hiding small gaps or dents is a wax crayon of a similar colour.
The problem with wood fillers (milliput etc.) is getting it to take colour once smoothed.
If you have to, do a test on scrap wood before you do the job...

[Pharos]

I think I could be very helpful if I could see a picture - I've done a lot of this and know my materials and glues.

[Minstrel SE]

I think I could be very helpful if I could see a picture - I've done a lot of this and know my materials and glues.

Thanks everyone. Ah yes I will get my old 9 mp camera on macro mode. Give me some time as Ive been out in the sun today and have a headache from the beer:)

A moment of pure carelessness and bye bye sharp veneered corner

I have just taken some shots and an uploading them to imgur at the moment...links to follow

https://imgur.com/EHU0Q5k

https://imgur.com/hcXrwVn

https://imgur.com/sP6jqH4

https://imgur.com/vhwtYXG

https://imgur.com/f7y0rSt

https://imgur.com/8JxzUOb


Pick a picture and the ones without the flash make it look less dramatic. Its not too bad and Ive probably lifted some of the mdf with the veneer. I should not have peeled the veneer back as it had only slammed about 1mm of the top veneer corner down...Ive given myself extra work to do now and I know that.

The cabinet isnt out of alignment there..for some reason there is shaved out area on both units giving a lip on the back corner join. The veneer is not peeling down the side edge and that just seems to be the flash.

I can see getting under there with a needle to smooth surfaces and spread glue. It could be one of those things that never looks right again but I will give it a damn good go and take my time

The filler can be painted with black acrylic at the back. Im a bit sick of black ash but I will eventually get a pair veneered in oak or something similar

[Pharos]

The Mother material seems to be chipboard, or at least a porous material, and this necessitates a glue which will flow into the wood and fill.

I would use PVA, but most importantly stain the wood appropriately before hand; any glue will seal the surface and make staining impossible afterwards.

So, use whatever stains you deem necessary for each damaged part. (dark brown and black?)
It is best to carefully keep applying small amounts of a diluted and hence too light a stain, until getting a good match rather than risking too darker stain with a strong one an having to attempt to reduce the colour.

When matched I would then apply PVA into all of the jointing area, wiping excess away from the clamped held finished jposition. With small areas such as you show you can hold or push with another piece/pieces of wood, the joint together and use a hair dryer to get it to dry off because the amount of contained water in the glue will be very low.
Of course try not to burn it or move the joint before it sets.

The resulting PVAed surface may be slightly shiny, and a fine wet or dry paper can be used to dull it. (600 ish.)

[Minstrel SE]

What the white PVA wood glue? which I have a plastic bottle of. Im not sure I like that stuff as it seems to take ages to set and it doesnt seem to be heavy duty. I dont like the white wood glue

How would I clamp that area. I was thinking of applying pressure with a wood block until it is set even if I have to hold it down for 10 minutes or so.

The back isnt the problem as I can mask sand and paint that black at the corner.

I want the glue to flow into the wood so wont mess with paint before Im getting a good bond I will get some filler that takes paint and it its only a minute amount of filler as you can see

I just want to get the veneer back down that I peeled back then I will start masking and filling properly.

Its one of those jobs that is going to require a lot of care and the sort of job I can botch up by over thinking it. I will get it sorted one way or another.

Thanks and I might do a thread about others damaging equipment because I hate myself for it :)

[Pharos]

Yes, PVA is white and water soluble, and heavy until it loses the water.
Tannoy used it to glue on the girdacoustic cardboard right angles onto its cones in the dual concentrics.

It is very strong, but 'clamping' would have IMO to be as you suggest, and a hair dryer will help evaporate the water.

PVA will flow very well into the wood structure.
I am not keen on fillers because they are either coloured, and rarely a match, or they take colour differently from the wood making it difficult to match the colour.

[guy]

Hi,

My instinct would be to try to get between the veneer and board with a scalpel blade to remove a little of the board before putting in the glue, just thinking that the veneer my sit a little "proud" if space isn't made for the fresh glue. PVA would be my choice, and clamp overnight.
Finish off with a Liberon wax filler stick - range of colours available and did a good job filling in the lid marks on my LP12 plinth.

[walpurgis]

You are correct Andrew.

If using PVA, just put a flat block on top and then weigh it down with something heavy and leave overnight. Cut a piece of plastic carrier bag and lay it between the speaker and block, otherwise the block may stick to the speaker. The carrier bag won't.

[tubehunter]

I have some Oak veneer going buckshee.

4 x 1000mm x 400mm couple of splits
4 x 810mm x 400mm good
2 x 810mm x 285mm couple of splits
2 x 390mm x 285mm ish

I bought this for a loudspeaker project that I didn't finish.

https://s20.postimg.cc/k1c5dt019/IMG_5636.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/ykjaf7t61/)

https://s20.postimg.cc/s6u7byvzx/IMG_5637.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/ppig4pc3d/)

https://s20.postimg.cc/xv0i2v825/IMG_5638.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/4futtv3ih/)

[Magna Audio]

I'll weigh in here.
Doing real wood veneering using proper cold press PVA glue and a vacuum press is one thing..
I do it from time to time. The bond is better than the wood grain itself..

If it's iron on vinyl (agree with the above, that it sounds like it is if it bends), then the glue used won't have been PVA.
PVA won't stick to plastics or other hard glues very well at all.
It works by seeping deep into the wood fibres like roots, and that needs to be on both surfaces, i.e. wood to wood.

If it's vinyl or wood veneer that's glue backed, then an epoxy or even super glue (a slow setting one) would be better.

If it's wood to wood then Yes to PVA. Not one of your School's paper & general purpose ones etc PVA but a proper woodworking PVA - Titebond for example.

Yes press it down with a flat block and clamp / weight. I use a sheet of Grease proof paper or better still Baking parchment under the block to prevent the block getting stuck.

[struth]

Thanks everyone. Ah yes I will get my old 9 mp camera on macro mode. Give me some time as Ive been out in the sun today and have a headache from the beer:)

A moment of pure carelessness and bye bye sharp veneered corner

I have just taken some shots and an uploading them to imgur at the moment...links to follow

https://imgur.com/EHU0Q5k

https://imgur.com/hcXrwVn

https://imgur.com/sP6jqH4

https://imgur.com/vhwtYXG

https://imgur.com/f7y0rSt

https://imgur.com/8JxzUOb


Pick a picture and the ones without the flash make it look less dramatic. Its not too bad and Ive probably lifted some of the mdf with the veneer. I should not have peeled the veneer back as it had only slammed about 1mm of the top veneer corner down...Ive given myself extra work to do now and I know that.

The cabinet isnt out of alignment there..for some reason there is shaved out area on both units giving a lip on the back corner join. The veneer is not peeling down the side edge and that just seems to be the flash.

I can see getting under there with a needle to smooth surfaces and spread glue. It could be one of those things that never looks right again but I will give it a damn good go and take my time

The filler can be painted with black acrylic at the back. Im a bit sick of black ash but I will eventually get a pair veneered in oak or something similar

looking at pics it seems it is the chipboard base that has given in and come away with the outer skin, which may well be vinyl. a little gentle removal of some of the fibres so it will go back down flush, and still have enough room for the glue will sort it.. you could always stain the glue before adding. think if both sides of damage is wood the some pva will sort it.

[Minstrel SE]

Hi,

My instinct would be to try to get between the veneer and board with a scalpel blade to remove a little of the board before putting in the glue, just thinking that the veneer my sit a little "proud" if space isn't made for the fresh glue. PVA would be my choice, and clamp overnight.
Finish off with a Liberon wax filler stick - range of colours available and did a good job filling in the lid marks on my LP12 plinth.

Yes I shouldnt have peeled it back and I will have to get a tiny amount of material out with something like a scalpel or needles.

I shouldnt have lifted what was stuck down as they dont sit back correctly without preparation. Once the surfaces have been parted they wont necessarily sit back smoothly. At the moment it wont smooth correctly with a block or hand pressure

Ooze out wont be a problem as I will mask the back area and the back suround is the chipboard which can be lightly sanded with a sanding stick and touched up in black.

I appreciate your input but everyone mentions pva as if I can clamp that. I cant see any way of clamping it but I may try pva and that doesnt work I can spend time preparing it again for a different glue. Then again this is a thick vinyl and small area so a heavy duty tacky fast drying glue is seems way more suitable

Its not the end of the world but I have been quoted £500 for an oak or teak re-veneer which is too pricey. Maybe its time to learn about veneering and start a proper project

Cheers
Martin

[Minstrel SE]

I have some Oak veneer going buckshee.

4 x 1000mm x 400mm couple of splits
4 x 810mm x 400mm good
2 x 810mm x 285mm couple of splits
2 x 390mm x 285mm ish

I bought this for a loudspeaker project that I didn't finish.



Thanks thats very tempting and just the sort of veneer I was thinking about. Ive seen packages of veneer on ebay. Im not ready at the moment. Let me see about tarting up this damage and then I might buy another couple of tatty cabinets and start a veneering project.

I put my mistakes right and if that takes a whole new veneering project then so be it...its only money :)

[Minstrel SE]

If I'm not very much mistaken, that isn't veneer at all - it's a vinyl wrap. Wooden veneer won't "peel back", it will just snap off.

PVA wood glue is extremely strong, so there's no need to worry about that. It has the advantage of being water soluble so it's easy to wipe off any ooze-out. PVA would be my choice.

Yes as its quite tough thick and hasnt snapped. Its a thick wrap but as you say it will be a vinyl wrap.

It seems a good quality wrap but probably no different to the wrap you see on Diamonds or any speaker of that time. Ive seen cheaper wraps in my time looking like Blue peter sticky backed plastic

With my own delusion I like to think he has put proper ash on there and painted it black :D

Oh the shame of having to admit to chipboard and vinyl wrap :D

[Minstrel SE]

I'll weigh in here.
Doing real wood veneering using proper cold press PVA glue and a vacuum press is one thing..
I do it from time to time. The bond is better than the wood grain itself..

If it's iron on vinyl (agree with the above, that it sounds like it is if it bends), then the glue used won't have been PVA.
PVA won't stick to plastics or other hard glues very well at all.
It works by seeping deep into the wood fibres like roots, and that needs to be on both surfaces, i.e. wood to wood.

If it's vinyl or wood veneer that's glue backed, then an epoxy or even super glue (a slow setting one) would be better.

If it's wood to wood then Yes to PVA. Not one of your School's paper & general purpose ones etc PVA but a proper woodworking PVA - Titebond for example.

Yes press it down with a flat block and clamp / weight. I use a sheet of Grease proof paper or better still Baking parchment under the block to prevent the block getting stuck.

Yes I do think it will take an araldite type mix based on that I cant clamp it and pva may not be ideal in this instance.

I welcome everybodys input and dont think Im wrong in what this may need. Its a small area and Im not really getting a wood to wood bond. Im going to be left with the vinyl backing with a fine layer of disturbed chipboard to bond it to.

Its just not a big enough area to let pva soak in and clamp. Ive used pva on wood frames I made but backed up with pin tacking. At the moment I just have a craft and schools type pva nd I have no confidence in that stuff.

Ive seen titebond and I think it will take some seriously good glue.

Pva will not have been used on this vinyl...it was probably some iron on veneer glue.

I dont have enough experience with pva to be confident in its different forms. I know what araldite and epoxy does and that would seem more suitable here as a fast drying option while I hold it. There seems no problem with ooze out if I have masked and wipe off excess quickly. there is only going to be a very small amount of glue spread under there

I have the time but of course trial and error can be very limited when dealing with glues and surfaces

[struth]

I have some Oak veneer going buckshee.

4 x 1000mm x 400mm couple of splits
4 x 810mm x 400mm good
2 x 810mm x 285mm couple of splits
2 x 390mm x 285mm ish

I bought this for a loudspeaker project that I didn't finish.

https://s20.postimg.cc/k1c5dt019/IMG_5636.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/ykjaf7t61/)

https://s20.postimg.cc/s6u7byvzx/IMG_5637.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/ppig4pc3d/)

https://s20.postimg.cc/xv0i2v825/IMG_5638.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/4futtv3ih/)

that will still do a nice set of standmounts duncan. worth keeping. not fit for it now or would be after it myself

[Pharos]

OK, now we have more info this is my strategy.

PVA eliminated, it will not glue vinyl.

Araldite is good, can be used as a bulk filling glue, (where superglue cannot).

Soak the underlying wood in the araladite mix, compress the veneer into position, holding it with a piece of wood, and yes, a hairdryer can also speed up this glue setting time considerably, I have done it often.

It is also worth remembering that araldite is soluble in Meths, and so a meths soaked rag can be used to dissolve off excess.

Do not overdo the heat, the vinyl may melt.

[Minstrel SE]

I am... you are right. I find this theraputic as I hate damaging anything. Its a fairly simple job and Im just pontificating. Before I peeled some back it was barely noticeable and would have been a two minute job to fill under 1mm of bent down veneer.

That would make sense so if the board has been pre veneered he drills the speaker holes in pre veneered board. That would make the cabinets easier to build and finish off. I might build some cabinets one day.

I will get on with it and let you all know how I managed.

[Minstrel SE]

OK, now we have more info this is my strategy.

PVA eliminated, it will not glue vinyl.

Araldite is good, can be used as a bulk filling glue, (where superglue cannot).

Soak the underlying wood in the araladite mix, compress the veneer into position, holding it with a piece of wood, and yes, a hairdryer can also speed up this glue setting time considerably, I have done it often.

It is also worth remembering that araldite is soluble in Meths, and so a meths soaked rag can be used to dissolve off excess.

Do not overdo the heat, the vinyl may melt.

Yes thankyou as that is now the plan. It will be an Araldite style glue and I cant see any problems. Once I have prepared it by taking enough underlying material out the vinyl should sit down easily in place for glueing

Thanks very much everyone. This has been very theraputic for me and i just wanted to put some thought into it without rushing things.

[Magna Audio]

Screwfix does Araldite clear. It's a good quality epoxy and is crystal clear... ;)

[Minstrel SE]

It has responded very well to a warm iron over thick packing paper doubled up.

Its much better now and I have been dabbing black acrylic paint with modellers micro brushes so the corner and back are matched because acrylic is easy to water down and pick/rub off

The iron was key but I have left myself with a shadow crease where I daftly peeled back the vinyl. Its not glued yet so Im going to keep dabbing in filler over the days and then iron it out

I took too much of the underneath off and I should have just ironed it as it was when I peeled it. Its great what a bit of heat does on this vinyl. Its hardy stuff and responds well to moderate heat. the initial bent corner has just ironed out flat

I could have had it nigh on perfect if I had not panicked as I get a bit OCD with these things. A little corner crease on black vinyl is not the end of the world. It is smoothing out and just need a good enough filled surface underneath to iron and smooth it :) more acrylic in which will dry and mould to the heat

Thanks for all your suggestions. Of all the speakers I didnt want to damage it was these Minstrels as I managed to bring them up from Portsmouth in near mint cabinet condition

[struth]

That's good. Thought it might

[Magna Audio]

Happy ending :)

[Minstrel SE]

Happy ending :)

well nearly :) Im a perfectionist and still have a bit of thinking about liquid fillers. Im so OCD about damaging stuff that I will often make a problem worse than it should have been to fix.

The problem with veneered corners is that if they are damaged it is a job to get them looking as new no matter how minor the damage.

Ah well I will pretend it never happened and get them back on the concrete plinths with crushed velvet frame cover.

They still work well which is the main thing :)