View Full Version : Phonostage Bake-Off - 08/07/18 - Penkridge *NOW CONFIRMED*
Bigman80
09-07-2018, 19:41
Digna phono stage
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1825/42397773605_0fa549a839_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/27AxEYD)image (https://flic.kr/p/27AxEYD) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]JThis is a great find. Not as fullsome as the other valve based units but an excellent sounding stage.
Apparently, dropping in the V5 Burson fills the sound a bit.
I thought this and the Krell sounded great together.
+1
Firebottle
09-07-2018, 20:10
Its a V6 Burson actually in the Digna.
Idlewithnodrive
09-07-2018, 20:48
Sounds like a great deal of clean, wholesome fun was had by all :) Bonza result !
I'd be happy to contribute with my Remton 383 MkII next time round, if there's any interest.
Thank you for the Day out, it was great to take part, as well as have a few hours gassing with Stoyan, we don't get to meet a great deal due to work and the like.
Stoyan is a forum member, so he can be contacted, I'll tell him to check his notifications. I don't know the forums he visits, they are in his native tongue, I believe.
The day out for me beyond the social gathering, and it was sociable and very friendly was to assess the DIGNA.
For me, where I am now, the DIGNA is ideal, It has another 90 hours of performing before it is run in, so I have a great excuse to give the new 845's a blast as well.
In the field trial it did its thing, it got my attention, it separated the players and allowed a deep uncoloured insight into the soundstage.
For the outlay I will sleep at night unconcerned.
I have discovered today, it has a few options to roll valves under its belt.
E88CC, ECC88, 6DJ8, PCC88, 7DJ8 and 6922 are all compatible.
So with a V5 and the above, plenty can be done to tune to ones desires.
Bigman80
09-07-2018, 21:12
Its a V6 Burson actually in the Digna.Yes mate but the V5 is smoother.
Bigman80
09-07-2018, 21:13
Thank you for the Day out, it was great to take part, as well as have a few hours gassing with Stoyan, we don't get to meet a great deal due to work and the like.
Stoyan is a forum member, so he can be contacted, I'll tell him to check his notifications. I don't know the forums he visits, they are in his native tongue, I believe.
The day out for me beyond the social gathering, and it was sociable and very friendly was to assess the DIGNA.
For me, where I am now, the DIGNA is ideal, It has another 90 hours of performing before it is run in, so I have a great excuse to give the new 845's a blast as well.
In the field trial it did its thing, it got my attention, it separated the players and allowed a deep uncoloured insight into the soundstage.
For the outlay I will sleep at night unconcerned.
I have discovered today, it has a few options to roll valves under its belt.
E88CC, ECC88, 6DJ8, PCC88, 7DJ8 and 6922 are all compatible.
So with a V5 and the above, plenty can be done to tune to ones desires.It's a great find mate.
Bigman80
09-07-2018, 21:13
Sounds like a great deal of clean, wholesome fun was had by all :) Bonza result !
I'd be happy to contribute with my Remton 383 MkII next time round, if there's any interest.Definitely!
Lee Henley
09-07-2018, 21:15
Is that an actual EAR 834 phono stage, or a clone?
It’s a real one mate that’s been modded, the previous owner changed the front plate
It’s a real one mate that’s been modded, the previous owner changed the front plate
It sounded good Lee and opened the valve phono stage part of the bake off very well as my ears picked up on the benefits of using valves in phono stages straight away.
Lee Henley
10-07-2018, 06:32
It sounded good Lee and opened the valve phono stage part of the bake off very well as my ears picked up on the benefits of using valves in phono stages straight away.
Its a pity I had to go early mate as we didn't try the stage with a separate SUT. The SUT in the EAR is not very good at all but hey ho it gives the listeners a chance to hear one with the inbuilt SUT. The MM side of the EAR is very good mate. When I eventually get round to yours Ill bring it with me as I believe your using the 2M Black which is MM
Its a pity I had to go early mate as we didn't try the stage with a separate SUT. The SUT in the EAR is not very good at all but hey ho it gives the listeners a chance to hear one with the inbuilt SUT. The MM side of the EAR is very good mate. When I eventually get round to yours Ill bring it with me as I believe your using the 2M Black which is MM
That would be great Lee, we must sort a date.
I’m happy to bring a paradise, with foo resistors, if you can sort another date.
Could also bring the Perreuax 255i integrated which will drive any speakers and negate the need for any pre. Might make it a little easier?
Firebottle
10-07-2018, 08:12
This sounds good ..
Where are you based in the Midlands Steve? I could always come over with my Vivant stage.
Its a V6 Burson actually in the Digna.
It's a V6 Vivid, they also make a V6 Classic, the outputs have different circuits, the Classic is a softer sound, but more organic, the Vivid is more detailed and transparent.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 08:38
I’m happy to bring a paradise, with foo resistors, if you can sort another date.
Could also bring the Perreuax 255i integrated which will drive any speakers and negate the need for any pre. Might make it a little easier?[emoji50]
Could do a winter meet?
Floyddroid
10-07-2018, 08:40
I dot my cap. Looks like a brilliant day. Well done Ollie and all those who gave to the day.
Nottingham
I would have made this one if I wasn’t abroad on Holiday. The amp has a phono stage built in that I haven’t even tried yet! Doubt I ever will.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 09:09
Cheers!
I dot my cap. Looks like a brilliant day. Well done Ollie and all those who gave to the day.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 09:10
Nottingham
I would have made this one if I wasn’t abroad on Holiday. The amp has a phono stage built in that I haven’t even tried yet! Doubt I ever will.Not to worry, a winter meet may be a bit soon and if weather is bad it may not work. Hmmmm
Not to worry, a winter meet may be a bit soon and if weather is bad it may not work. Hmmmm
Maybe a November meet up? Weather usually OK then.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 09:58
Possible!
Maybe a November meet up? Weather usually OK then.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 10:30
https://preview.ibb.co/djWi1o/DSC00223.jpg (https://ibb.co/kC2Z7T)
https://preview.ibb.co/eczsu8/DSC00224.jpg (https://ibb.co/fHHO1o)
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https://preview.ibb.co/eRpQE8/DSC00229.jpg (https://ibb.co/joAAgo)
https://preview.ibb.co/dhVMnT/DSC00230.jpg (https://ibb.co/jPjQE8)
https://preview.ibb.co/kXUQE8/DSC00231.jpg (https://ibb.co/iEb5E8)
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https://preview.ibb.co/b5fyZ8/DSC00233.jpg (https://ibb.co/cE7dZ8)
https://preview.ibb.co/nLusu8/DSC00234.jpg (https://ibb.co/b1t7ST)
https://preview.ibb.co/kOcqgo/DSC00235.jpg (https://ibb.co/i4iVgo)
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Wohoo some decent pictures at last - who's the prat in the silly trousers?:lol:
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 10:46
Lol, took me all morning thinking "there must be a way to get this big files on the forum"
Picture hosting lol. Duh!
Wohoo some decent pictures at last - who's the prat in the silly trousers?[emoji38]
Maybe a November meet up? Weather usually OK then.
If the hotel by me has re-opened by then we can hold it there again. It's supposed to be 'closed for refurbishment' but last time I went past it just looked closed. I'll see if I can find out what's going on with it.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 10:59
If the hotel by me has re-opened by then we can hold it there again. It's supposed to be 'closed for refurbishment' but last time I went past it just looked closed. I'll see if I can find out what's going on with it.Thats a good shout. It would be good to keep momentum!
The listeners (all one of them! :lol:), appear to be seated a long distance away from the speakers. I wasn't there, so I cannot comment, but if was, I would prefer to sit somewhat closer.
Excellent photos BTW.,
The listeners (all one of them! :lol:), appear to be seated a long distance away from the speakers. I wasn't there, so I cannot comment, but if was, I would prefer to sit somewhat closer.
Excellent photos BTW.,
It was a big hall Barry but the listeners were about 12-20 feet away from the speakers. Trust me that was close enough. I stood at the back 50 feet away or so and it was still loud enough. 25 feet was about perfect for me.
The perspective in the photos makes it look like we were sitting further away than we actually were.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 11:25
The speakers were ulled away from the wall and the seats moved closer. The distance between the seats was fine and space behind the speakers really helped too. Turned out pretty good in the end. The first couple of tracks sounded terrible lol
The listeners (all one of them! [emoji38]), appear to be seated a long distance away from the speakers. I wasn't there, so I cannot comment, but if was, I would prefer to sit somewhat closer.
Excellent photos BTW.,
The listeners (all one of them! :lol:), appear to be seated a long distance away from the speakers. I wasn't there, so I cannot comment, but if was, I would prefer to sit somewhat closer.
Excellent photos BTW.,
Yes, indeed. I would very much agree with Barry. My opinion may not be considered as objective, because I am a near-field listener, but still it seems that the seats were rather far from the speakers. YMMV.
The SPL was such that you would not want to sit any closer, it would have been uncomfortable.
I was a bit concerned when the Roger Water's Amused To Death album was playing that I would be taking my speakers home in bits but they managed to get through it. Some serious dynamic swings on that recording.
The speakers were pulled away from the wall and the seats moved closer. The distance between the seats was fine and space behind the speakers really helped too. Turned out pretty good in the end. The first couple of tracks sounded terrible lol
Ah I did wonder as in the photo showing the Urei speakers, the seats are placed closer. Though by that stage in the proceedings extra seats might have been added.
From the photos the acoustics of the room would appear to be 'hard', though I would imagine the irregular shape and size of the room helped matters.
The SPL was such that you would not want to sit any closer, it would have been uncomfortable.
I was a bit concerned when the Roger Water's Amused To Death album was playing that I would be taking my speakers home in bits but they managed to get through it. Some serious dynamic swings on that recording.
Clearly not the listening environment that I would like, and not one which would allow me to assess sublties in SQ. IMO, there is a 'correct' listening level, or volume for all types of music: too loud and the performers sound too large, or are playing 'giant' instruments; too soft and they sound as if they are playing far too far away. Anyway as in all matters subjective, YMMV.
Clearly not the listening environment that I would like, and not one which would allow me to assess sublties in SQ. IMO, there is a 'correct' listening level, or volume for all types of music: too loud and the performers sound too large, or are playing 'giant' instruments; too soft and they sound as if they are playing far too far away. Anyway as in all matters subjective, YMMV.
You are correct Barry the room was a bit hard and suspended wooded floor did not help. But we could all still pick up the differences between the phono stages.
Clearly not the listening environment that I would like, and not one which would allow me to assess sublties in SQ. IMO, there is a 'correct' listening level, or volume for all types of music: too loud and the performers sound too large, or are playing 'giant' instruments; too soft and they sound as if they are playing far too far away. Anyway as in all matters subjective, YMMV.
In a hall that size there was not really much option but the sound was clean and I did not notice any clipping, the amp never went into the third bias stage even. It wasn't at all difficult to hear the differences IMO.
Clearly not the listening environment that I would like, and not one which would allow me to assess sublties in SQ. IMO, there is a 'correct' listening level, or volume for all types of music: too loud and the performers sound too large, or are playing 'giant' instruments; too soft and they sound as if they are playing far too far away. Anyway as in all matters subjective, YMMV.
Differences were readily apparent, even if being able to state a preference was not always possible.
Firebottle
10-07-2018, 12:13
Wohoo some decent pictures at last - who's the prat in the silly trousers?:lol:
Watch it you :ner:
That's my trademark.
You might be able to just see the joke in the mirror :mental:
Watch it you :ner:
That's my trademark.
You might be able to just see the joke in the mirror :mental:
Only teasing. I think a few folk are trying to work out what is on your T shirt!:lol:
Firebottle
10-07-2018, 12:24
Only teasing. I think a few folk are trying to work out what is on your T shirt!:lol:
No worries, it's good to have a decent sense of humour.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 12:25
Clearly not the listening environment that I would like, and not one which would allow me to assess sublties in SQ. IMO, there is a 'correct' listening level, or volume for all types of music: too loud and the performers sound too large, or are playing 'giant' instruments; too soft and they sound as if they are playing far too far away. Anyway as in all matters subjective, YMMV.Let's have it right,
The speakers were at a maximum of 3m away from the front row. At times, the Volume level did seem to creep up but as Macca said, never did the Krell light it's 3rd and in the main, the Volume was "adequate"
In the earlier pics, the seats were further away but this was during setup and we weren't sure of where the speakers would end up. Both the speakers and the chairs moved nearer to each other.
During the bake off the volume level was fairly consistent, it was after this when the Urei's went in and it got WAY too loud. At that point, there was no way for me to discern anything because it was just too loud.
It was very easy to hear differences between the phonostages and has been mentioned, the system certainly showed everything in its full glory.
The listeners (all one of them! :lol:), appear to be seated a long distance away from the speakers. I wasn't there, so I cannot comment, but if was, I would prefer to sit somewhat closer.
Excellent photos BTW.,
Thats me :ner: the seats were moved much closer before starting the Bakeoff :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Lee Henley
10-07-2018, 17:23
A slight change to the EAR since the bake-off, and I must say for the better, it’s now been Firebottled. Called into Alan’s last night for some more tweaking, Alan popped it back round this evening, not sure what the mods are but it’s definitely for the better.
Nice one Alan much appreciated, thank you
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/C141B573-38E0-4C42-9E43-D08605D1F7E5_zps5ofjvt2d.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/C141B573-38E0-4C42-9E43-D08605D1F7E5_zps5ofjvt2d.jpg.html)
brian2957
10-07-2018, 17:36
Excellent photos , thanks chaps :)
From my recollection, the volume control dials white dot, was seen from 11 0 Clock around to 4 0 Clock. These settings were not dictated by preferences to volume, but attempts to match the volumes of the different amps due to gain differences between the models. I think in general the volumes chosen were a close match.
The Amused to Death Wild Card and Dire Straits Wild Card tracks, start very quietly, so the volume might have been a little off for these, when the full performance kicks in.
I sat in listening positions from the front row, mid row, back row. Standing behind the seating, and right back to being seated on the stages access steps.
The space behind the seating sung when in the standing position using the focals.
The monitors required a lower ear position, sitting at the rear worked great for me.
The simple solution to keep the volumes matched might be to use a SPL Metre.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 18:56
From my recollection, the volume control dials white dot, was seen from 11 0 Clock around to 4 0 Clock. These settings were not dictated by preferences to volume, but attempts to match the volumes of the different amps due to gain differences between the models. I think in general the volumes chosen were a close match.
The Amused to Death Wild Card and Dire Straits Wild Card tracks, start very quietly, so the volume might have been a little off for these, when the full performance kicks in.
I sat in listening positions from the front row, mid row, back row. Standing behind the seating, and right back to being seated on the stages access steps.
The space behind the seating sung when in the standing position using the focals.
The monitors required a lower ear position, sitting at the rear worked great for me.
The simple solution to keep the volumes matched might be to use a SPL Metre.Good points John, we will make sure we do a better job of this at the next one just for continuity.
Wakefield Turntables
10-07-2018, 19:27
A slight change to the EAR since the bake-off, and I must say for the better, it’s now been Firebottled. Called into Alan’s last night for some more tweaking, Alan popped it back round this evening, not sure what the mods are but it’s definitely for the better.
Nice one Alan much appreciated, thank you
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/bootlegboy1/C141B573-38E0-4C42-9E43-D08605D1F7E5_zps5ofjvt2d.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/bootlegboy1/media/C141B573-38E0-4C42-9E43-D08605D1F7E5_zps5ofjvt2d.jpg.html)
Lee,
How much modding have you done to yours? Does your's have the Dual mono PSU, Thorstens Mods, or the Special tight tolerance component pack (I like that) which can be bought from John over in the USA? I got Alan to mod my own clone, I can't believe that it finished 5th!
Andy
The Amused to Death Wild Card and Dire Straits Wild Card tracks, start very quietly, so the volume might have been a little off for these, when the full performance kicks in.
.
Both records have an especially wide dynamic range so that would be a contributor. They are actually intended to be listened to at those sorts of levels for best effect. I did notice Oli using the 'master fader' at some points on those two (I.E the remote control volume).
The direct to disc classical recording that Alan brought along was also tremendous. I'm not much for classical as a rule but that captivated me.
Firebottle
10-07-2018, 19:50
Lee,
How much modding have you done to yours? Does your's have the Dual mono PSU, Thorstens Mods, or the Special tight tolerance component pack (I like that) which can be bought from John over in the USA? I got Alan to mod my own clone, I can't believe that it finished 5th!
Andy
It was in unmodified state at the bake-off Andy, the mods done only today have lifted it a lot. It wouldn't be 5th now.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 19:50
It was too loud when the swings happened and it needed adjustment.
That's my excuse anyway lol
It was too loud when the swings happened and it needed adjustment.
That's my excuse anyway lol
I know, I would have notched it back a bit too at the same points you did, but I hate having to do that. We might not have needed to if we had more damping in the room I think.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 20:04
Yes, we can do better room wise. We had a test LP and could've set the volume from that with a sound level meter. All learning and to be fair, we weren't THAT far out.
I know, I would have notched it back a bit too at the same points you did, but I hate having to do that. We might not have needed to if we had more damping in the room I think.
Lee Henley
10-07-2018, 20:10
Lee,
How much modding have you done to yours? Does your's have the Dual mono PSU, Thorstens Mods, or the Special tight tolerance component pack (I like that) which can be bought from John over in the USA? I got Alan to mod my own clone, I can't believe that it finished 5th!
Andy
Hi Andy
Prior to the recent mods which Alan has carried out I’m pretty sure from memory it has the Thorsten mods but wouldn’t be 100%, I know it’s got some Black Gate caps and Telefunken valves. I’ll have a look to see what the mods Rabski carried out over on the wam before I brought it from him. I can also confirm what Alan has carried out it’s elevated it to another level
Wakefield Turntables
10-07-2018, 20:11
It was in unmodified state at the bake-off Andy, the mods done only today have lifted it a lot. It wouldn't be 5th now.
HA! Yep I'd have fetched mine but work unfortunately got in the way.
Yes, we can do better room wise. We had a test LP and could've set the volume from that with a sound level meter. All learning and to be fair, we weren't THAT far out.
I was at a bake off and there was proper level matching with a level meter on a tripod. On one swap everyone said 'That's louder' about 2 seconds in. Level was checked again with the gubbins and a mistake had been made. It was about 0.5dB louder and we all heard it right away.
But if you want to do scientific testing you go to a lab, not a bake off.
Bigman80
10-07-2018, 20:13
Yup. Agreed
I was at a bake off and there was proper level matching with a level meter on a tripod. On one swap everyone said 'That's louder' about 2 seconds in. Level was checked again with the gubbins and a mistake had been made. It was about 0.5dB louder and we all heard it right away.
But if you want to do scientific testing you go to a lab, not a bake off.
It’s not hard to level sound.
Disagree.
A bake off should be fun, and not a proper lab test, but you can always reduce the variables and there are loads of free phone apps for sound.
audio pills
12-07-2018, 17:29
Hi guys,
Thanks for organizing this amazing event! It has been an absolute pleasure for me to experience such a big lot of great sounding phono stages. London grammer record was a great finding for me too. Getting the chance to try a few different step up transformers with MY VAS phono stage, took me into the right direction to put together my personal hi fi system. Pairing a VAS with Audio innovations step up transformers is a great match. I would also like to know what interconnect cables have been used.
Best regards,
Stoyan
Bigman80
12-07-2018, 17:43
Hi guys,
Thanks for organizing this amazing event! It has been an absolute pleasure for me to experience such a big lot of great sounding phono stages. London grammer record was a great finding for me too. Getting the chance to try a few different step up transformers with MY VAS phono stage, took me into the right direction to put together my personal hi fi system. Pairing a VAS with Audio innovations step up transformers is a great match. I would also like to know what interconnect cables have been used.
Best regards,
StoyanHi Stoyan!!
Glad to hear from you.
Thank you for bringing the VAS to the bakeoff. It was stunningly good. I felt the Audio Innovations SUT really helped with the VAS so if you go in that direction, I think you'll be very happy.
The Interconnects were my own SPOTFIRE cables.
Thread here:
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheartofsound%2Enet%2Ff orum%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D56933&share_tid=56933&share_fid=4177&share_type=t
Plenty of feedback there and there is still a pair out on loan if you want to try them in your own home. Just ask to be added to the loan list.
Oliver.
audio pills
12-07-2018, 18:31
Thanks, Oliver.
I will be very happy to see how these cables will match in my set up. At the moment I am looking for an Audio innovations SUT, but sadly I can not find any for sale.
Stryder5
12-07-2018, 20:40
It’s not hard to level sound.
Disagree.
A bake off should be fun, and not a proper lab test, but you can always reduce the variables and there are loads of free phone apps for sound.
Last time I looked at phone apps for SPL they were not particularly accurate, repeatable or available with various weightings
I guess db(C) would have been appropriate, giving Peak Sound Pressue Levels.
Gary
I was at a bake off and there was proper level matching with a level meter on a tripod. On one swap everyone said 'That's louder' about 2 seconds in. Level was checked again with the gubbins and a mistake had been made. It was about 0.5dB louder and we all heard it right away.
But if you want to do scientific testing you go to a lab, not a bake off.
That's pretty good going. A 0.5dB change in level is quite subtle:
https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.5
But I agree with your final sentence.
Bigman80
12-07-2018, 21:18
Thanks, Oliver.
I will be very happy to see how these cables will match in my set up. At the moment I am looking for an Audio innovations SUT, but sadly I can not find any for sale.They are not very common but do pop up. Have a look on HIFIShark. That where I keep my eyes open if I'm looking for something.
Shall I add your name to the loan list? I think yes [emoji6]
That's pretty good going. A 0.5dB change in level is quite subtle:
https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.5
.
I know it is. That's why I think level matching is important in the right context. You can have a fun meet where we all get together and listen to the equipment everyone has brought along, or you can do a serious test with lots of controls. Fudging it somewhere in the middle is pointless and how many AoS members are going to turn up for a day of serious ABX blind testing?
DiveDeepDog
12-07-2018, 21:45
I know it is. That's why I think level matching is important in the right context. You can have a fun meet where we all get together and listen to the equipment everyone has brought along, or you can do a serious test with lots of controls. Fudging it somewhere in the middle is pointless and how many AoS members are going to turn up for a day of serious ABX blind testing?
When your giving scores and saying A is better than B, I think level matching is very important.
Either have an informal day like the Stoke bake-off, or get serious for at least part of the day.
From what I've read, I'd be concerned about the high volume too, it's nice to whack it up now and again, but all day at high levels isn't helping anyone. If it was a work environment they'd be earplugs issued !
Bigman80
12-07-2018, 21:48
When your giving scores and saying A is better than B, I think level matching is very important.
Either have an informal day like the Stoke bake-off, or get serious for at least part of the day.
From what I've read, I'd be concerned about the high volume too, it's nice to whack it up now and again, but all day at high levels isn't helping anyone. If it was a work environment they'd be earplugs issued !There were maybe 2 occasions where the volume was too loud in the bake off but that's not too loud full stop. It's too loud compared to the previous track on the same Phonostage
The other occasions were outside of this when the Urei's were in and once when the JMLabs were in.
When your giving scores and saying A is better than B, I think level matching is very important.
Either have an informal day like the Stoke bake-off, or get serious for at least part of the day.
!
The scoring was only done out of casual interest. You can't really score hi-fi, All of them sounded very good, no obvious flaws anywhere. I think what people preferred came down mainly to taste in presentation rather than actual quality, although the more expensive stages did have a bit more to them it wasn't a devastating advantage. I thought the Russell and the AQvox were clearly the best, I was in a minority (possibly of one) so there is little consistency once preference comes into it.
In my view if you want a definitive answer to what's 'The Best' you go on the measurements because they are definable and independent of subjective taste. But we all know we could buy the best measuring phono stage in the world and after a while decide we don't actually like it that much.
Bigman80
13-07-2018, 07:30
I disagree a bit,
The scoring was done to gauge the opinion of the room and as a way to collate the results from the listening tests.
Personally, I think the results were accurate to my own opinion so the group got it pretty much spot on, except Macca, who prefered the solid state stuff lol.
There is a lot being made of the effect of the room and the Volume but in truth, neither were an issue!! This isn't a controlled test by men in lab coats, it was a group of enthusiasts getting together and listening to phonostages and giving an opinion by the form of a vote.
As much as there is value in the results, as always, until you get something in your own system, you don't know how it's going to sound for sure.
The results are a pointer to what's available that you may not have heard, after that it up to you what you think.
...
As much as there is value in the results, as always, until you get something in your own system, you don't know how it's going to sound for sure.
The results are a pointer to what's available that you may not have heard, after that it up to you what you think.
I have participated in similar bake-offs with phono stages, DACs, etc. IMHO, such bake-offs are more enlightening than reviews by audio journalists, whose objectivity is an unknown.
Even better (much, much better) is to have a bake-off in one's own system, but this is not always feasible.
Bigman80
13-07-2018, 08:16
I have participated in similar bake-offs with phono stages, DACs, etc. IMHO, such bake-offs are more enlightening than reviews by audio journalists, whose objectivity is an unknown.
Even better (much, much better) is to have a bake-off in one's own system, but this is not always feasible.Exactly.
Bigman80
13-07-2018, 08:18
An example of why the bakeoff is worth holding-
"You would have loved the Phono Stage bake off last Sunday.
I too use a Trichord Dino (mk ii) and we tested it against other solid state stages and valve stages.
My conclusion: I'm definitely getting rid of the Dino and replacing it with a valve stage.
If you want to spend similar money to the cost of the Dino then can I suggest you look at this stage that JohnG of this forum brought along?
http://www.nixiekits.eu/product.php?key=digna_pp"
A decision reached due to the experience of the bakeoff. Excellent!
An example of why the bakeoff is worth holding-
"You would have loved the Phono Stage bake off last Sunday.
I too use a Trichord Dino (mk ii) and we tested it against other solid state stages and valve stages.
My conclusion: I'm definitely getting rid of the Dino and replacing it with a valve stage.
If you want to spend similar money to the cost of the Dino then can I suggest you look at this stage that JohnG of this forum brought along?
http://www.nixiekits.eu/product.php?key=digna_pp"
A decision reached due to the experience of the bakeoff. Excellent!
Yes, that's an excellent example, Oliver. Being able to experience how each device compares with the competition is one key takeaway from a bakeoff.
And similarly, getting acquainted with new devices is also very (perhaps more) interesting. Widening our horizons! -)
Bigman80
13-07-2018, 10:26
Yes, that's an excellent example, Oliver. Being able to experience how each device compares with the competition is one key takeaway from a bakeoff.
And similarly, getting acquainted with new devices is also very (perhaps more) interesting. Widening our horizons! -)Thanks, I thought it gave a perfect display of why bakeoffs work.
Not an exact science but worth the time.
In the past year, I have attended five events, where Vinyl Replays has been the fundamental intention.
As a result I have heard a reasonable amount of Phonostages, Played through different systems.
As for the science of producing a Phonostage performance that is unanimously declared the device to aspire to, I am not aware of it having a presence.
A simple explanation is a individuals emotions and stimulation roused by the replay performance.
Just like a individuals "sense of humour " ones laughter at a subject is not seen as laughable by another.
Phonostages of certain price range, or more accurately shared circuitry, all have a similar presentation, but they also have enough differences to allow a member of the audience to be selective while hearing the device during its audition.
In general the audience are looking for the strengths within the replay, but are usually more opinionated by the detractors that are manifesting in the performance and the intensity of the detractors.
i.e Sibilance, Bass Boom, Weak Midrange, Colouration, Soundstage Projection.
Each of these detractors will be judged, but each individual will have their own unique opinion of how it effected the performance, hence one phonostage will always be seen as the most attractive more than another, there is also the situation where the owner of a device, forms the view, that their device sounds very different at home, with all the variables, it is not straight forward to get a unanimous decision with all the audience in agreement.
Another more rare experience I have met with is that there are Phonostages in the line up for Audition, that when presented give a performance that seems to surpass the earlier line up and be a real cut above. When this happens there is a release of excitement by some of the group, and true evaluation of the performance can wane. I am prone to this same reaction and have lost my bearings on a few occasions.
The Modwright 9.0 SE, is the first that I recall delivering a performance I perceived as much improved, I intend on listening again to this model.
The "Paradise" is a reference device, it has a very incisive, lucid presentation, one I would like to hear again.
The Music First Reference, is the dream device for me, it comes at a price beyond the normal folks payscale.
I heard a marked difference in the experience with the VAS at Penkridge, but this seemed to be expressed by others in the audience more than myself, so I do believe it happened, I do agree the AI SUT is a great match for the VAS.
From my end, there is no secret about where I am in the world of Phonostages, the DIGNA is to me, very good at rousing Emotional and Stimulating reactions during a replay, I know this sounds wrong :lol:
What the DIGNA has done though is show a marked improvement in the performance it offers, when compared to the Clones. The Clones can perform and does a good job.
What the DIGNA does is remind me of how the fore mentioned phonostages showed their superiority over the Clones, as does the DIGNA, so with the DIGNA on board, I know I am heading in a direction toward the Phonostages, I think I need to aspire to.
I'm looking forward to the opportunity to take part in future Bake Offs
Bigman80
14-07-2018, 15:40
In the past year, I have attended five events, where Vinyl Replays has been the fundamental intention.
As a result I have heard a reasonable amount of Phonostages, Played through different systems.
As for the science of producing a Phonostage performance that is unanimously declared the device to aspire to, I am not aware of it having a presence.
A simple explanation is a individuals emotions and stimulation roused by the replay performance.
Just like a individuals "sense of humour " ones laughter at a subject is not seen as laughable by another.
Phonostages of certain price range, or more accurately shared circuitry, all have a similar presentation, but they also have enough differences to allow a member of the audience to be selective while hearing the device during its audition.
In general the audience are looking for the strengths within the replay, but are usually more opinionated by the detractors that are manifesting in the performance and the intensity of the detractors.
i.e Sibilance, Bass Boom, Weak Midrange, Colouration, Soundstage Projection.
Each of these detractors will be judged, but each individual will have their own unique opinion of how it effected the performance, hence one phonostage will always be seen as the most attractive more than another, there is also the situation where the owner of a device, forms the view, that their device sounds very different at home, with all the variables, it is not straight forward to get a unanimous decision with all the audience in agreement.
Another more rare experience I have met with is that there are Phonostages in the line up for Audition, that when presented give a performance that seems to surpass the earlier line up and be a real cut above. When this happens there is a release of excitement by some of the group, and true evaluation of the performance can wane. I am prone to this same reaction and have lost my bearings on a few occasions.
I heard a marked difference in the experience with the VAS at Penkridge, but this seemed to be expressed by others in the audience more than myself, so I do believe it happened, I do agree the AI SUT is a great match for the VAS.
From my end, there is no secret about where I am in the world of Phonostages, the DIGNA is to me, very good at rousing Emotional and Stimulating reactions during a replay, I know this sounds wrong [emoji38]
What the DIGNA has done though is show a marked improvement in the performance it offers, when compared to the Clones. The Clones can perform and does a good job.
What the DIGNA does is remind me of how the fore mentioned phonostages showed their superiority over the Clones, as does the DIGNA, so with the DIGNA on board, I know I am heading in a direction toward the Phonostages, I think I need to aspire to.
I'm looking forward to the opportunity to take part in future Bake OffsGreat post John.
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