Tannoy VX12

[aquapiranha]

First of all, it has been a long time! Hello everyone!
I managed to bag a pair of these fantastic speakers locally for just £150! Now I am looking for a good, budget amp to use with them..

https://goo.gl/images/QiuUkehttp://www.fullcompass.com/common/products/original/240386.jpg

[STD305M]

Hi Steve,

you have a PM

Regards Steve...

[walpurgis]

You got those for a good price Steve. They were ten times what you paid new. However, have you checked the spec?

Here: http://m.markertek.com/Attachments/Specifications/Tannoy/80016350VX12-Specifications.pdf

They are not designed to produce deep bass. The drivers are fine, it's the comparatively small cabinet that will limit things. In a big box, they'd really deliver. It would be worth rehousing these.

If you are on a budget, you'd find a Denon PMA-350SE will drive them perfectly and to high levels, the PMA-350SE can be obtained for less than £100. You will need to use 'Speakon' connectors or fit some banana sockets to the boxes.

[aquapiranha]

You got those for a good price Steve. They were ten times what you paid new. However, have you checked the spec?

Here: http://m.markertek.com/Attachments/Specifications/Tannoy/80016350VX12-Specifications.pdf

They are not designed to produce deep bass. The drivers are fine, it's the comparatively small cabinet that will limit things. In a big box, they'd really deliver. It would be worth rehousing these.

If you are on a budget, you'd find a Denon PMA-350SE will drive them perfectly and to high levels, the PMA-350SE can be obtained for less than £100. You will need to use 'Speakon' connectors or fit some banana sockets to the boxes.

Hi! Yes I was aware of the specs before I bought them. They are good enough for now, and as Marco has witnessed I am not afraid to build big cabinets. I will be looking for suitable designs and if you have any suggestions they would be greatly appreciated! Thanks Steve

[walpurgis]

Within reason, the general rule for cabinets suitable for Tannoy drivers is 'the bigger the better'.

I'd definitely stick with reflex loading with the VX drivers and aim to get the centre of the horn tweeter at ear level when sitting to listen.

Tannoy don't quote the driver model number, but it may be marked on them. If you can locate the T/S parameters, it can help.

Personally, I'd think a box of similar volume to the Berkeley cabinet would be fine, with appropriate port tuning.

[aquapiranha]

I am looking for the T/S parameters, and may have to get in touch with Tannoy. I would prefer a narrow, deep cabinet rather than a wide one.

[walpurgis]

I would prefer a narrow, deep cabinet rather than a wide one.

Yes, there could be benefits.

[fatmarley]

I've got a Woofer Tester 3 that I'm willing to sell for £25. It measures thiele/small parameters In seconds (to measure VAS you will also need a digital scale that measures In fractions of a gram. Mine goes weighs up to 500g) . It's Incredibly easy to use. Just plug It Into a PC or Laptop and follow the very basic Instructions.

I'm only selling because after extended use measuring Inductors, It gives a garbled reading and has to be unplugged and plugged back In again to work. For some reason most, If not all WT3s did that (I've had two). The latest Woofer Tester (DATS V2) Isn't 100% reliable but It's better.

With the results, I could model your current tuning and see what a bigger box and different port tuning would give you.

[aquapiranha]

Hi Matt. So, are you saying the device is faulty? Or am I missing something? I am still not sure which direction I will go here with these drivers, one suggestion is that building a cabinet that would improve lose registers will suck out the life of the music!

[walpurgis]

I can't imagine why it might be thought that improved bass could "suck the life out of the music". The opposite would likely apply in my view.

[aquapiranha]

I can't imagine why it might be thought that improved bass could "suck the life out of the music". The opposite would likely apply in my view.

I am included agree with you, I tbinknthe insinuation was that dynamics would suffer. However, tell me about the device you have, is it faulty and how easy is it to measure Vas?

Steve

[fatmarley]

Hi Matt. So, are you saying the device is faulty? Or am I missing something? I am still not sure which direction I will go here with these drivers, one suggestion is that building a cabinet that would improve lose registers will suck out the life of the music!

No, Not faulty but can be finiky when measuring Inductors.

It would work fine for what you would need It for but to be sure I'd test It against my other devices (Dayton DATS and Smith and Larson WT2) just to check everything Is working ok.

[fatmarley]

one suggestion is that building a cabinet that would improve lose registers will suck out the life of the music!

They're talking rubbish.

[fatmarley]

I am included agree with you, I tbinknthe insinuation was that dynamics would suffer. However, tell me about the device you have, is it faulty and how easy is it to measure Vas?

Steve

Measuring VAS Is easy when you know how. I'd send you a detailed explanation.

[cooky]

VX12 uses 7900 0441 Recone kit.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/825/27321997667_5b7e9f39ff_b.jpg

Fill ones boots.

[aquapiranha]

VX12 uses 7900 0441 Recone kit.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/825/27321997667_5b7e9f39ff_b.jpg

Fill ones boots.Hi Cooky, forgive me but I am not sure what you are getting at there? [emoji848]

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[fatmarley]

Steve,

Could you find the Internal volume of the box In litres and the Internal diameter and length of the ports? Assuming Franks link Is correct for your woofer, the first thing to do Is to reverse engineer the speakers port tuning and low frequency extension.

A very accurate way to find the port tuning frequency Is to lay the speaker down and put something like coffee beans on the cone. Play low frequency test tones through the speaker until the beans stop moving. When they stop moving, that's the port tuning frequency and that's the point where maximum air velocity will be moving through the ports.

[walpurgis]

Steve,

Could you find the Internal volume of the box In litres and the Internal diameter and length of the ports? Assuming Franks link Is correct for your woofer, the first thing to do Is to reverse engineer the speakers port tuning and low frequency extension.

A very accurate way to find the port tuning frequency Is to lay the speaker down and put something like coffee beans on the cone. Play low frequency test tones through the speaker until the beans stop moving. When they stop moving, that's the port tuning frequency and that's the point where maximum air velocity will be moving through the ports.

Are you talking about the port resonance of the drivers in their current cabinets? I'd bet it's around 70Hz and that info will be of no use.

[aquapiranha]

Steve,

Could you find the Internal volume of the box In litres and the Internal diameter and length of the ports? Assuming Franks link Is correct for your woofer, the first thing to do Is to reverse engineer the speakers port tuning and low frequency extension.

A very accurate way to find the port tuning frequency Is to lay the speaker down and put something like coffee beans on the cone. Play low frequency test tones through the speaker until the beans stop moving. When they stop moving, that's the port tuning frequency and that's the point where maximum air velocity will be moving through the ports.Hi. I am sure the volume of the cabinet will be on the spec sheet but maybe not the ports, although to be honest they look more like just holes in the baffle. I am pondering options while I wait to see if Tannoy get back to me with the driver model. I am envisaging a 3 way with either a front mounted 12" or 15" side mounted woofer...🤪[emoji15]

However this is all academic if the drivers I have are not any good, and besides I would have zero knowledge of how to design a box and even less so how to sort out some kind of crossover for a woofer, assuming I use the existing one which looks like it was built by the military for the vx12 driver.

Steve

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[aquapiranha]

Are you talking about the port resonance of the drivers in their current cabinets? I'd bet it's around 70Hz and that info will be of no use.Tannoy indeed quote 70hz....

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[walpurgis]

I am envisaging a 3 way with either a front mounted 12" or 15" side mounted woofer...

I'm not sure what you mean. The Tannoy is a full range driver, although you could use a subwoofer with it.


I would have zero knowledge of how to design a box and even less so how to sort out some kind of crossover for a woofer, assuming I use the existing one which looks like it was built by the military for the vx12 driver

Picking a suitable box design should not be too tricky. Bass can be extended below the driver resonance with a bit of port tuning. Port dimensions can be worked out once you pick a cabinet volume.

I can't see why you would not be able to use the existing crossover. You might want to use an alternative terminal plate equipped with banana sockets. That should be easy to sort.

[fatmarley]

Are you talking about the port resonance of the drivers in their current cabinets? I'd bet it's around 70Hz and that info will be of no use.

Your suggestion of "the bigger the better" for a Tannoy Is even more useless, unfortunately, that's another Internet myth.

The only way to do It properly, Is to completely reverse engineer the speaker - crossover and all. Everything else Is just guesswork. If Steve gave me the Internal volume and port dimensions, I could model the driver using the specs In franks link. If It matched the actual port tuning (beans trick) then that's part of the puzzle solved.

[aquapiranha]

I'm not sure what you mean. The Tannoy is a full range driver, although you could use a subwoofer with it.



Picking a suitable box design should not be too tricky. Bass can be extended below the driver resonance with a bit of port tuning. Port dimensions can be worked out once you pick a cabinet volume.

I can't see why you would not be able to use the existing crossover. You might want to use an alternative terminal plate equipped with banana sockets. That should be easy to sort.Hi again, and thanks so much for your continued input! What I meant when talking about an additional driver was that it the driver required it. I would much prefer to use the vx12 as is, without additional complexity / cost. I see mention of cabinet size in litres but I find it hard to visualise. I am not that restricted on size but I would much prefer a cabinet with as slim a front profile as possible. Yeah I was looking at the connectors on the back and as you say they are far more than would be required and in fact I already have a pair of recessed banana plug connectors that would do the job. I have access to a commercial woodworking shop and all the machinery I could dream of too.

Thanks Steve

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[walpurgis]

Your suggestion of "the bigger the better" for a Tannoy Is even more useless

You know I was generalising.

You'd suggest smaller boxes would you?

[aquapiranha]

Tannoy quote 36.07 litres. I have just measured the 4 ports and each is 3" (76.2mm) long and 2" (50.8mm) wide.

Steve
Your suggestion of "the bigger the better" for a Tannoy Is even more useless, unfortunately, that's another Internet myth.

The only way to do It properly, Is to completely reverse engineer the speaker - crossover and all. Everything else Is just guesswork. If Steve gave me the Internal volume and port dimensions, I could model the driver using the specs In franks link. If It matched the actual port tuning (beans trick) then that's part of the puzzle solved.

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[fatmarley]

You know I was generalising.

You'd suggest smaller boxes would you?

I can only go by what you said "the bigger the better" - which is rubbish.

I didn't suggest smaller boxes either - more rubbish.

[walpurgis]

I can only go by what you said "the bigger the better" - which is rubbish.

I didn't suggest smaller boxes either - more rubbish.

I don't like your dismissive attitide, it's offensive. Whether you agree with what I say or not you can be polite about it!!

[Marco]

Indeed. Matt, that's not how we address each other on AoS, so please moderate how you respond to people, and be more polite. Cheers!

Marco.

[fatmarley]

Indeed. Matt, that's not how we address each other on AoS, so please moderate how you respond to people, and be more polite. Cheers!

Marco.

Marco, If you read through, you'll see I was only replying in the same manner I was spoken too, and correcting misinformation at the same time.

[Marco]

I'm a little busy just now. Who was speaking to you in that manner? In any case, as they say, two wrongs don't make a right...

Marco.

[fatmarley]

Tannoy quote 36.07 litres. I have just measured the 4 ports and each is 3" (76.2mm) long and 2" (50.8mm) wide.

Steve

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Going by the measurements In Franks link, you get a 5db peak around about 73hz, so the good news Is they have potential to go deeper, but It depends on the frequency response of the bass relative to the midrange.

First thing I'd try Is to block one port. This will lower the tuning frequency a bit and drop the peak a db or two.

Is there a removable back panel? Just wondering If there was a quick and easy way to temporarily Increase the internal box volume? You'd need to increase the volume by around 15ltr and have a listen. If bass Is too peaky, try blocking one of the ports.

[aquapiranha]

Going by the measurements In Franks link, you get a 5db peak around about 73hz, so the good news Is they have potential to go deeper, but It depends on the frequency response of the bass relative to the midrange.

First thing I'd try Is to block one port. This will lower the tuning frequency a bit and drop the peak a db or two.

Is there a removable back panel? Just wondering If there was a quick and easy way to temporarily Increase the internal box volume? You'd need to increase the volume by around 15ltr and have a listen. If bass Is too peaky, try blocking one of the ports.Hello. I can of course block a port to check. Also there is a removable cover at the base of the cabinet used to allow the addition of a top hat for a stand. The hole is about 2.5 inches maybe 3. I don't know what I would use to cover the hole though in order to add an additional amount to the internal volume. Maybe a box of some sort? I was hoping I would be able to put them in a bigger box and... ta da! A bit more bass. It seems now this is going to be a lot more complicated [emoji3]

There are as you might expect differing opinions on the correct way forward, and I certainly appreciate the effort you and others are putting in, thank you!

Steve

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[Marco]

Marco, If you read through, you'll see I was only replying in the same manner I was spoken too...

Having now looked through the thread, Matt, I can see no evidence of anyone being impolite to you. Geoff simply disagreed with some of your statements, which he (or anyone else) is entitled to, and you seemed to get a bit sniffy about it.

Your input is valued, and I'm enjoy your contributions, but from now on, please learn to be more accepting of what you write being challenged or disagreed with, as no-one here is the 'appointed authority' on Tannoys or anything else. Cheers! :cool:

Hi Steve :wave:

I did say 'hello' on Vinny's equipment sale thread, in the classifieds, but you never replied;)

Marco.

[aquapiranha]

Hi Steve :wave:

I did say 'hello' on Vinny's equipment sale thread, in the classifieds, but you never replied;)

Marco.

Hi Marco! I am sorry I missed that. I trust both yourself and Del are well?

Steve


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[fatmarley]

Hello. I can of course block a port to check. Also there is a removable cover at the base of the cabinet used to allow the addition of a top hat for a stand. The hole is about 2.5 inches maybe 3. I don't know what I would use to cover the hole though in order to add an additional amount to the internal volume. Maybe a box of some sort? I was hoping I would be able to put them in a bigger box and... ta da! A bit more bass. It seems now this is going to be a lot more complicated [emoji3]

There are as you might expect differing opinions on the correct way forward, and I certainly appreciate the effort you and others are putting in, thank you!

Steve

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Yes a solid box (not anything flexible) or anything you can find. Just make sure it's sealed and there are no air leaks between It and the speaker cabinet.

This just saves you from all the hassle of building a pair of speaker cabinets and then discovering it doesn't sound any good.

[aquapiranha]

Yes a solid box (not anything flexible) or anything you can find. Just make sure it's sealed and there are no air leaks between It and the speaker cabinet.

This just saves you from all the hassle of building a pair of speaker cabinets and then discovering it doesn't sound any good.Ok I will see what I can do thanks

Steve

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[Marco]

Hi Marco! I am sorry I missed that. I trust both yourself and Del are well?


Yup, we're great, mate. Hope life's still treating you well on the emerald isle!:)

Del says 'hi' to her fellow vegan:eyebrows:

Marco.

[fatmarley]

Having now looked through the thread, Matt, I can see no evidence of anyone being impolite to you. Geoff simply disagreed with some of your statements, which he (or anyone else) is entitled to, and you seemed to get a bit sniffy about it.

Your input is valued, and I'm enjoy your contributions, but from now on, please learn to be more accepting of what you write being challenged or disagreed with, as no-one here is the 'appointed authority' on Tannoys or anything else. Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Ok, sorry Marco.

[aquapiranha]

Yup, we're great, mate. Hope life's still treating you well on the emerald isle!:)

Del says 'hi' to her fellow vegan:eyebrows:

Marco.Good to hear that you are both well Marco, I am doing OK here thanks. Say hi to Del for me, still remember her superlative culinary skills! [emoji3]

Steve

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[walpurgis]

If the speakers sound well balanced, there is no reason why the existing crossover can't be used unless it employs bass equalisation, which is unlikely.

Personally, I think trying to retune the bottom end with the existing cabinets will not be rewarding (beside the fact that the are not the prettiest things about). I owned the foregoing and very similar V12 model and know their limitations.

[aquapiranha]

Yes either way I would like to teahouse them if I can. The mid and top are astonishing it is only the lower registers letting them down. Adding an active subwoofer* is always an option assuming it can be integrated well.

Steve

*sorry for swearing [emoji23]
If the speakers sound well balanced, there is no reason why the existing crossover can't be used unless it employs bass equalisation, which is unlikely.

Personally, I think trying to retune the bottom end with the existing cabinets will not be rewarding (beside the fact that the are not the prettiest things about). I owned the foregoing and very similar V12 model and know their limitations.

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[aquapiranha]

So Tannoy have got back to me to confirm that the model number of the driver is 3201...

Steve

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[dmckean]

Did this project ever get off the ground? I similarly just picked up a pair of VX12 is great condition and they sound amazing but are a little light on the low end. Building a cabinet is something I could handle if I didn't have to do all the math.

[fatmarley]

Did this project ever get off the ground? I similarly just picked up a pair of VX12 is great condition and they sound amazing but are a little light on the low end. Building a cabinet is something I could handle if I didn't have to do all the math.

Here's a model of that driver. The grey line is 36ltr with 4 x 2"x3" ports, as per post #25. The black line is if you increase the internal volume to 46ltr with 1 x 4"x4" port. The problem is, we don't know how much BSC (Baffle Step Correction) Tannoy used, so it's quite possible that the straight red line I put in is the midrange level. By increasing the volume and tuning lower, you could end up with deeper, but very lightweight bass. The only way to fix that is to completely redesign the crossover.

https://i.imgur.com/16wjvLJ.jpg

[fatmarley]

Looking at the specs, Tannoy quote a sensitivity of 97db. If that is correct then a bigger enclosure won't work unless the crossover is redesigned (they used little, if any BSC).

[dmckean]

I get it, that's probably why the 85L Cheviot has a 91db sensitivity.

[dmckean]

It looks like Tannoy is using autoformers in their crossovers of their larger speakers to lower the midrange level. That actually should be really straight forward to implement and shouldn't require the crossover being completely redesigned.

[fatmarley]

It looks like Tannoy is using autoformers in their crossovers of their larger speakers to lower the midrange level. That actually should be really straight forward to implement and shouldn't require the crossover being completely redesigned.

Aren't the autoformers just for the treble section?

Regardless of that, the chances of a crossover from a different speaker working with yours is very unlikely. If you can find a Tannoy design that uses the same driver, but has more low frequency extension, then I'd clone that.

[dmckean]

I think I've lost interest in reboxing them. I borrowed a HSU Research sub from a good local audiophile friend and these speakers pair with it perfectly. They were obviously designed for it and I shouldn't try to fight it. Just enjoying the tunes now. :cool: