My Ultrasonic Record Cleaner

[Berni217]

Apology for the long review. I would also like to mention that I do not have any commercial connections with the brands named.

After a lot or searching and reading through forums and other sites, I decided to put together an Ultrasonic Record Cleaning device, which will help me getting my record collection in pristine condition.

Why using an Ultrasonic Cleaner?
According to many music lovers, it's a very effective cleaning process for removing the dirt from the record grooves using ultrasound to create caviation bubbles through an appropriate cleaning solvent . This process is used to clean many types of objects, including surgical, dental, industrial parts and electronic equipments.

Applied to record cleaning, it is said to be superior to traditional vacuum cleaners. I am unable to validate this as I have never used a traditional vacuum cleaning machine, however I have been using a Knosti Disco Antistat Record Cleaner and like the simplicity of use and results of this device!

There are many very expensive made for purpose Ultrasonic Record Cleaners on the market (Audio Desk Vinyl Cleaner Pro @ £2.5K; KLAudio KD-CLN-LP200 @ £4.4K; Amari RW-800; the new Degritter @ >£2K; ...). It therefore makes sense to go through the DIY route to get a cost effective system together.

THE DIY ROUTE ...
Many audiophiles have successfully done this. You need the following:

Ultrasonic Tank
Record Spin
Cleaning Solvent


Ultrasonic Tank: Lots of Ultrasonic Tanks on the market and can be cheaply sourced from amazon or eBay.

My selection process was:


A reliable manufacturer building professional machines

- I found the brand names GT Sonic or X-Tronic were making very good machines but there are many others. I went for the GT Sonic.

The frequency

- 40 kHz tanks are easier to find and less expensive. Audio Desk & KLAudio are using this frequency in their machine, hence this is the one I have selected.

- 60/80 or 120 kHz are more expensive and, from my research, do not seem to be more effective cleaning devices.

The Volume of the tank

- Many Capacities are on offer 3L/6L/10L/..., which represents more or less the amount of liquid you will need to fill the tank with.

The 6L tank I have selected takes about 4.5L of cleaning solvent

- The tank Size (L x W x H) is important.

L should be at least 300 mm for a record;
W will depend on the number of records you intend to clean at once. The wider the tank, the better for cleaning many records at once;
H or Depth should be at less 150 mm

Timer Settings available

- A timer is important as you want to manage the exact cleaning time for each batch. I use 10 mins per batch

Temperature Settings available

- Heating function is mandatory to bring the cleaning solution to the correct temperature. I use 40 degree celsius



My Ultrasonic Tank: Allows me to clean up to 3 records at once

https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51aD1l4zpiL._SL500_AC_SS350_.jpg

Record Spin: Many Audiophiles have been very creative here by building their own solution from the ground up, using DC motors to reach around 2 rpm. There are also many out of the box/diy solutions which can be purchased online or through forums.

As I did not have the time, I found the VinylStack's 3 Record Ultra Sonic Spin Kit, which provides exactly what I needed: a simple and straight forward option. It allows me to clean up to 3 records at once and provide quick load/unload of the records using a strong magnet.

https://thevinylshack.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/vinylstack_0004-3.jpg?w=150&h=145

Cleaning Solvent: Here again, people are very creative but you could use:

Tap water alone: Tried it but not very effective, even with some wetting agent.
Distilled/De-Ionised Water alone: Better than Tap water but still not very effective
Distilled/De-ionised Water + IPA + Wetting agent: Best solution. Many options out there.

I am using De-Ionised Water + Isopropanol 99.9% + Ilford Ilfotol


MY ULTRASONIC RECORD CLEANER

After cleaning over 50 records, I am very happy with My US device. Records are very clean, even those from charity shops and car boots sales, and play without noises.

My cleaning process is simple ...


Fill tank with 4.5L of Cleaning Solvent

- I use the following mix: 3.6L of De-Ionised water; 800 ml of Isopropanol 99.9%; 2 tbsp of Ilfotol
Warm the Cleaning Solvent to 40 degree C
Degas the Cleaning Solvent for 5 mins (only once before the first batch)
Load the Spin device with 3 records
Clean for 10 mins
Air dry for 20 mins


URLs of the components bought upon request.

* Ultrasonic Tank - GT Sonic 6L: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01M0SU85S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

* VinylStack Ultra Sonic Spin Kit: https://thevinylstack.com/ultrasonic-cleaning/ultra-sonic-spin-record-cleaning-kit/

* De-Ionised Water - 5L: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000Y8WA38/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

* Isopropanol 99.9%: enough for over 1000 records. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003D8QFRI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

* Ilford Ilfotol: 1 bottle will last forever. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000KZ7QWK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

* You will need lots of new inner sleeves: https://www.covers33.co.uk/?s=slpap12line&post_type=product

[Ali Tait]

Interesting Bernard, been thinking about the myself. Could you PM the links please?

[Bigman80]

Great write up. I'd have been interested in this but I really wanted a vacuum Machine. Fair play for providing the links and taking the guesswork out for people.

[stidge]

Please could you let me have the links too

Many thanks

Steve

[Jazid]

Fab, I've been thinking about one of these for years, perhaps stick the links up here for ease of reference?

I am curious about a couple of things:
How long does the cleaning fluid last, and how does one filter it between sessions?
Also, have you considered rinsing the records to get the Ilfotol etc off before drying? I don't remember (much but especially not) that being mentioned in the DIYaudio thread.

Well done, it looks most professional to me :)

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

[guy]

Hi,

very good of you to offer details - please pm details if possible.

One question though; what made you decide on 40 degrees centigrade (just seems a bit warm to me, although I may well be over cautious).

Regards. Guy.

[Berni217]

I have now added the URLs to the thread.
Mods: Please confirm this is in line with policy.

[struth]

Sure. No problem Bernard

[Berni217]

Fab, I've been thinking about one of these for years, perhaps stick the links up here for ease of reference?

I am curious about a couple of things:
How long does the cleaning fluid last, and how does one filter it between sessions?
Also, have you considered rinsing the records to get the Ilfotol etc off before drying? I don't remember (much but especially not) that being mentioned in the DIYaudio thread.

Well done, it looks most professional to me :)

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

Thanks.

I have cleaned over 50 records in one Batch of cleaning solvent without any issue. All records are deep cleaned and play without any noises. Some users have cleaned up to 200 records in one batch....

I am currently working on a manual diy filtering solution to start with and I have bought some 1 micron filter socks for this purpose. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/18-FILTER-SOCK-3-x-1-MICRON-WVO-SVO-WASTE-VEGETABLE-OIL-BIODIESEL-FILTER-SOCKS/173280809541?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I am also looking at filtering the Cleaning solvent during the cleaning process using an electric pump and filter. This will allow the Cleaning solvent to stay clean all the time, which might improve thing further.

Due to the low amount of Ilfotol used (2 tbsp in 4.5L), rinsing the records is not really required as there is no visible residue left. I know some people are doing so using distilled or de-ionised water and others do not. Based on my experience with the Knosti, I do not.

[Berni217]

Sure. No problem Bernard

Cheers.

[struth]

Sorry Tim but that would come under trade alas and can't be posted on the forum unless you have a trade membership I will need to delete it.

[Berni217]

Hi,

very good of you to offer details - please pm details if possible.

One question though; what made you decide on 40 degrees centigrade (just seems a bit warm to me, although I may well be over cautious).

Regards. Guy.

For best results, it is recommended to use a temperature up to 40 C. Some folks are using up to 60 C but I do not think I want to try that. My Ultrasonic Tank can go up to 80 C, however this can only be used for other purposes, without the IPA.

[Jazid]

Just a quick net nanny warning for anyone new to using isopropyl alcohol: It evaporates easily from solution and the vapour is highly flammable at low temperatures, so its use in an ultrasonic bath at much above room temperature carries a fire risk, especially if a standard brushed dc motor is going to be used to turn the record.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

[Clive]

Thanks for posting this Bernard. I'm very tempted....

By degassing the fluid for 5 mins on first use - does this require leaving the fluid to sit for 5 mins at 40C, then use it?

[Berni217]

Just a quick net nanny warning for anyone new to using isopropyl alcohol: It evaporates easily from solution and the vapour is highly flammable at low temperatures, so its use in an ultrasonic bath at much above room temperature carries a fire risk, especially if a standard brushed dc motor is going to be used to turn the record.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

Good comment. I would not worry about the DC motor. However, if used in a kitchen, one needs to be careful.... better to open the windows!

I am using the Ultrasonic tank lid after use to prevent having to top-up the solution. I also want to gradually experiment reducing the volume of IPA in the mix.


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[Berni217]

Thanks for posting this Bernard. I'm very tempted....

By degassing the fluid for 5 mins on first use - does this require leaving the fluid to sit for 5 mins at 40C, then use it?

It requires switching the ultrasonic ON for 5 mins at 40C just before cleaning.

Some info on the benefits of degassing ...
https://www.sonicsonline.com/blogs/ultrasonic-cleaners-and-how-to-use-them/how-to-degas-ultrasonic-cleaners


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[Clive]

It requires switching the ultrasonic ON for 5 mins at 40C just before cleaning.

Some info on the benefits of degassing ...
https://www.sonicsonline.com/blogs/ultrasonic-cleaners-and-how-to-use-them/how-to-degas-ultrasonic-cleaners


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks, that's useful. One more question.....I can understand that filtering the solution, wiping the tank clean and refilling it with the filtered solution would be sensible after a few cleaning sessions. Is there any advice on how often it's advisable to use new fluid? Of course if its dirty then new solution is needed but does it degrade? If the solution was left sitting in the tank for a couple of weeks or longer, is this considered to matter?

[Berni217]

Thanks, that's useful. One more question.....I can understand that filtering the solution, wiping the tank clean and refilling it with the filtered solution would be sensible after a few cleaning sessions. Is there any advice on how often it's advisable to use new fluid? Of course if its dirty then new solution is needed but does it degrade? If the solution was left sitting in the tank for a couple of weeks or longer, is this considered to matter?

I partly answered in post #9 but I will add that I have successfully cleaned around 70 records with no impact on the sound so far.

I am planning to clean up to 150-200 records before filtering the solution with a 1 micron filter.

Once filtered, the solution can be used many times over with some top-up.

The tank has a lid, which can be used if the solution is left in the tank for a period. You can also store in a 5L plastic bottle.

Hope this helps.


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[Jac Hawk]

This method of vinyl cleaning looks very interesting and i'm very tempted to give it a go, the initial post was very informative however the use of IPA had me a little confused at 1st until i realised people were talking about isopropyl alcohol and not Indian Pale Ale :cool:, seriously though wouldn't this work with a pre mix vinyl cleaning fluid such as the Knosti stuff?

[YNWaN]

Bernard, may I offer you enormous thanks for posting this very detailed description and list of components. I’ve been meaning to build myself an ultrasonic cleaner for a couple of years now but have yet to get around to it. Thanks to you I have just had the tank delivered (rather a nicely made thing it is too). So, another project for me to add to the list :).

[Mike Reed]

Interesting research project, Bernard. I note that you currently use a ratio of approx. 4:1 water to IPA ; marginally weaker than that, in fact, and as the ratio used by many RCM users is between 3:1 and 5:1, I wonder why you're thinking of reducing the IPA content.

There's a lot of interest in ultrasonic record cleaning, due, no doubt to its supposed superiority over wet-vac. machines. However, for me, there's (currently) a major flaw, and that's by having to air-dry records. Not only (presumably) do you have to have a purpose-made rack which doesn't touch the playing surface, but you're allowing air-borne dust etc. to alight on the freshly cleaned record. Also not sure how you know when full evaporation has taken place prior to sleeving. Furthermore, is all the detritus extracted during the process mixed with the fluid as opposed to being extracted by vacuum on a standard RCM ?

I may well have the wrong idea about some of these functions, but at the mo' I can see the disadvantages but not the overriding merits unless saving time is one.

[YNWaN]

I’ve yet to personally clean a record with an ultrasonic bath but I have used one to clean a whole bunch of other stuff and I can tell you, without any shadow of doubt, that it is profoundly more effective than any brushing, scrubbing or vacuuming - even if very aggressive and volatile cleaning agents are used.

[guy]

Hi Mike,

I am sure that Bernard will be in a better position to answer your questions (my only experience in ultrasonics are using ultrasonic probes to disperse PVC emulsions many years ago and,more recently, watching the effect of a small bath on my wife's jewellery).
However, I think it must be safer to reduce flammable volatiles content to a minimum in the cleaning solution (not sure that the IPA is even necessary to be honest) as the ultrasonics could cause fast formation of a flammable vapour around the bath.
The reason that I am not sure that IPA is needed is because the effect of cavitation together with a good surface active agent (emulsifier) would lift any dirt particles from the surface of the record and keep them in suspension.

I have been very interested in this thread - I just need to persuade my wife to let me buy a bath!
My only suggestion for improving the process would be to spray the cleaned record with distilled water from a "plant sprayer"? (perhaps IPA mix to speed evaporation?) to rinse off any remaining emulsifier at the end of the process.


Guy.

[Mike Reed]

Thanks, Mark and (neighbour ?) Guy. I'm posing these caveats out of pure ignorance, but am swayed by your conviction that the actual process is superior (however applied). As a VPI user, I can only compare what I do know with what I envisage about ultrasonic cleaners. As I mentioned, I can't understand why the drying process, which I find very important, can't be incorporated into a/the machine, thus presenting a viable all-round superior product.

There is no way that I'd clean records and leave them out to dry for 10 to 15 minutes. Certainly, with an IPA mix, that drying process is more efficient with the record in a horizontal position (in my case, this is by short-term evaporation), whereas rack drying, to my mind, can only be done (almost) vertically.

I have a local audiophile DIY friend who is also interested in making his own machine. As he builds amplifiers, DACs, phono stages and speakers as a hobby, I respect his enthusiasm for ultrasonics and shall refer him to this thread and Bernard's research.

[Clive]

It might be overkill but I feel an RCM used to dry records would be useful. It could also be used for the initial clean of very dirty records such that too much cr@p doesn't pebble dash the grooves in the US cleaner.

[YNWaN]

Thanks, Mark and (neighbour ?) Guy. I'm posing these caveats out of pure ignorance, but am swayed by your conviction that the actual process is superior (however applied). As a VPI user, I can only compare what I do know with what I envisage about ultrasonic cleaners. As I mentioned, I can't understand why the drying process, which I find very important, can't be incorporated into a/the machine, thus presenting a viable all-round superior product.

There is no way that I'd clean records and leave them out to dry for 10 to 15 minutes. Certainly, with an IPA mix, that drying process is more efficient with the record in a horizontal position (in my case, this is by short-term evaporation), whereas rack drying, to my mind, can only be done (almost) vertically.

I have a local audiophile DIY friend who is also interested in making his own machine. As he builds amplifiers, DACs, phono stages and speakers as a hobby, I respect his enthusiasm for ultrasonics and shall refer him to this thread and Bernard's research.

I think a drying method could be incorporated, it just makes the whole thing more elaborate - will have a think

[Yomanze]

I think a drying method could be incorporated, it just makes the whole thing more elaborate - will have a think

Probably easier to buy a 'vinyl vac' attachment for your hoover & just do it after the clean on a jig.

[Mike Reed]

Probably easier to buy a 'vinyl vac' attachment for your hoover & just do it after the clean on a jig.

Wonder how long the soggy bags would last ?:) Extraction of contaminated (i.e. post cleaning) fluid is one thing, but a period for evaporation, to my mind, is mandatory. This can be 1 minute or 5 depending on mix and ambient temperature. CLIVE's point about 'pebble-dashing' may hold water too. (Excuse pun).

[Yomanze]

Can’t see it being a problem with, say, a Henry. :)

[YNWaN]

Personally I doubt the 'pebble dashing' comment is relevant as the particle size is really very tiny and so are the forces being applied.

[Mike Reed]

Yes, I love my Henry too; cumbersome and annoying but utterly reliable and efficient.

There's another thing I'd miss with an u/s machine. Brushing off the line of detritus from the felt pad. Little things, I know, but very satisfying when you can see what's just come off your record !:D

[Berni217]

This method of vinyl cleaning looks very interesting and i'm very tempted to give it a go, the initial post was very informative however the use of IPA had me a little confused at 1st until i realised people were talking about isopropyl alcohol and not Indian Pale Ale :cool:, seriously though wouldn't this work with a pre mix vinyl cleaning fluid such as the Knosti stuff?

[emoji3]
I have not tried using the Knosti pre mix, which could be an option. However, it would need to be diluted and might have a higher cost than the diy option!


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[Berni217]

Bernard, may I offer you enormous thanks for posting this very detailed description and list of components. I’ve been meaning to build myself an ultrasonic cleaner for a couple of years now but have yet to get around to it. Thanks to you I have just had the tank delivered (rather a nicely made thing it is too). So, another project for me to add to the list :).

Thanks Mark.
Are you planning to build your own spinning device?


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[Berni217]

Interesting research project, Bernard. I note that you currently use a ratio of approx. 4:1 water to IPA ; marginally weaker than that, in fact, and as the ratio used by many RCM users is between 3:1 and 5:1, I wonder why you're thinking of reducing the IPA content.

There's a lot of interest in ultrasonic record cleaning, due, no doubt to its supposed superiority over wet-vac. machines. However, for me, there's (currently) a major flaw, and that's by having to air-dry records. Not only (presumably) do you have to have a purpose-made rack which doesn't touch the playing surface, but you're allowing air-borne dust etc. to alight on the freshly cleaned record. Also not sure how you know when full evaporation has taken place prior to sleeving. Furthermore, is all the detritus extracted during the process mixed with the fluid as opposed to being extracted by vacuum on a standard RCM ?

I may well have the wrong idea about some of these functions, but at the mo' I can see the disadvantages but not the overriding merits unless saving time is one.

Thanks Mike.
Re-IPA ... Some users only use distilled/de-ionised water + wetting agent. IMHO the use of IPAs solvent enhanced the cleaning process and reduce the air drying time.

Due to the IPA evaporation off the solution, I am gradually testing a lower ratio by not doing any top-up. I will try 5:1 or lower when I change the solution.

Air drying ... by putting the record on the dedicated VinylStack air drier (see my pic above), there is no contact and there is no dust sticking to the records. Even then, it would be only surface dusts, hence can be brushed away easily knowing that the groove is clean.

Some guys are doing a final rince with distilled water then using a RCM, which could bring some benefits. However, I do not see the point of adding another cleaning record machine in the process at increased costs. By all means, do that if you already have a vacuum cleaner!



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[Berni217]

I’ve yet to personally clean a record with an ultrasonic bath but I have used one to clean a whole bunch of other stuff and I can tell you, without any shadow of doubt, that it is profoundly more effective than any brushing, scrubbing or vacuuming - even if very aggressive and volatile cleaning agents are used.

I agree.


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[Berni217]

Hi Mike,

I am sure that Bernard will be in a better position to answer your questions (my only experience in ultrasonics are using ultrasonic probes to disperse PVC emulsions many years ago and,more recently, watching the effect of a small bath on my wife's jewellery).
However, I think it must be safer to reduce flammable volatiles content to a minimum in the cleaning solution (not sure that the IPA is even necessary to be honest) as the ultrasonics could cause fast formation of a flammable vapour around the bath.
The reason that I am not sure that IPA is needed is because the effect of cavitation together with a good surface active agent (emulsifier) would lift any dirt particles from the surface of the record and keep them in suspension.

I have been very interested in this thread - I just need to persuade my wife to let me buy a bath!
My only suggestion for improving the process would be to spray the cleaned record with distilled water from a "plant sprayer"? (perhaps IPA mix to speed evaporation?) to rinse off any remaining emulsifier at the end of the process.


Guy.

Good points Guy.

As mentioned, I think that the use of IPA reduces the drying time, which is good as you do not want to leave the record outside too long.

Will be reducing the ratio gradually though ...


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[Berni217]

Thanks, Mark and (neighbour ?) Guy. I'm posing these caveats out of pure ignorance, but am swayed by your conviction that the actual process is superior (however applied). As a VPI user, I can only compare what I do know with what I envisage about ultrasonic cleaners. As I mentioned, I can't understand why the drying process, which I find very important, can't be incorporated into a/the machine, thus presenting a viable all-round superior product.

There is no way that I'd clean records and leave them out to dry for 10 to 15 minutes. Certainly, with an IPA mix, that drying process is more efficient with the record in a horizontal position (in my case, this is by short-term evaporation), whereas rack drying, to my mind, can only be done (almost) vertically.

I have a local audiophile DIY friend who is also interested in making his own machine. As he builds amplifiers, DACs, phono stages and speakers as a hobby, I respect his enthusiasm for ultrasonics and shall refer him to this thread and Bernard's research.

Thanks Mike. There are some diy drying devises available (fan based) which can be mounted on the tank.

I currently can dry up to 6 records at once, using the VinylStack holder. I will be purchasing the very cheap IKEA plastic dish drainer to dry more records at once.
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/kitchen-products/dishwashing-accessories/flundra-dish-drainer-white-art-40176950/

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[karma67]

playing devils advocate here,doesn't any water sludge/dirt get left on the record when you just air dry?

[DiveDeepDog]

I've only ever used Knosti cleaner, the best results I've achieved are with a second bath and rinse in distilled water.

Distilled water beads off the record with no residue left, it's fairly obvious when the liquid becomes contaminated with cleaning solution as it stops beading and 'clings' to the record.

[Jac Hawk]

Been seriously looking into getting an ultrasonic machine and came across this video


https://youtu.be/3IDeyFFtRMQ?t=2

the guy is a little boring, but explains the machine, how it works and more importantly the solution he uses very well.

Some of the guys that have posted on this thread seem sceptical about air drying, my personal view is that as long as you can't hear any difference it's ok, my only caveat would be if you want to clean then listen straight after. Finally most of the attachments i.e. the spindle and motor assembly you need seem only to be available from abroad, i personally don't like buying from outside the UK if i can help it, but the guy in the video is based in the UK and sells the whole thing on ebay.

[alphaGT]

I am very impressed with this setup! And looks just as capable as many high dollar ultrasonic machines.

I bought an electric motor made to turn a mirror ball! Plugged right into the wall and turned about 1.5 rpm. Rather cheap and Lots of torque too. It should be easy to retrofit into your project?

If you’ve already got an RCM, why not use it? To remove from the bath and vacuum dry should give a superior finish? Plus ready to play.

Russell

[FrostEOne]

I've built my US cleaner around the following article, notice the cleaning formula and filtration system. He also uses a RCM for final dry. Nice sleeves to protect your cleaned records highly recommended.
https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/rushton-paul-diy-approach-ultrasonic-cleaning-lps/
Mark

[SAP7]

The velvet vortex home made bath is all you will ever need.

Perfect balance of the basics, with just enough clever design to add what you need and avoid over engineering what you don’t (most commercial models).

[ijrussell]

The velvet vortex home made bath is all you will ever need.

Perfect balance of the basics, with just enough clever design to add what you need and avoid over engineering what you don’t (most commercial models).

I love mine. It's miles better than my Okki Nokki which costs about the same. It's probably the best upgrade my vinyl system has had.

[JohnG]

I've bought the 6L Ultra Sonic Tank recommended in this thread.
I'm looking at the motor and accessories available on www.Sparkfun.com
These are parts that are used in astronomy for automated telescopes, so are hopefully proven reliable items.
The cost of the extended shafts are very fair, so a few can be prepped in advance, for a speedy exchange.
I will cut and shut a redundant metal framing for a glass shelved stand.
This will produce a elevating section for the records entry and removal from the bath.
I am considering a Nosti, as it seems a good old fashioned
Pre "Ultrasound Treatment" surface clean is the only way to lift the evidence of handling them, and who knows what else got onto them over the course time.
After reading the Kirmuss viewpoint, I like the idea of a distilled water rinse, after the Ultrasound Treartment.
If anybody wants to be thrown into deep debate about the process and the failing of the off the shelf Ultrasound Devices and cleaning methods, as I am building, with the usual methods applied, have a search and read up on the views of
Dr/ Mr Kirmuss, who produces a Ultrasonic Machine.
His views have created a raised eyebrow.

P.S
I had been informed recently of a Aluminium Foil placed in the Bath test, it will be a visual test to check if there is a risk of harming the record.
Has anybody knowledge of this test ?

]

[skimminstones]

Been perfectly happy with mine. I bought one of the 6l tanks, a cheap 0.6 motor from eBay and made up a couple of things of balsa wood to keep the record at the right height in the tank. I then give it a rinse with a sponge brush and distilled water and use a vinyl vac attachment to a hoover to clean it all up. The results have been very good.

[JohnG]

I have checked out information on the Aluminium Foil Test, and if there is a importance in it being carried out on a Ultrasonic Record Cleanng Machine, "URCM"
This is a relevant test and part of recording the functionality of the machine over time,it is wise to carry a test out at initial set up, hence the test foil sample should be stored and revisited as a observation/comparison against interval testing at approx 3 months apart. Storage/Archiving the sample could also be a photograph or scanned image.
The basic investigation of the foil test is to demonstrate the intensity and distribution of cavitation in the bath.
There are tutorials on line showing the procedure, and there are threads relating to the outcome of a foil test in a URCM in forums.
I have come to understand, that a solution clean will be required after a foil test, as residuals will be seen in the tank. I don't think any vinyl owner would want their vinyl in with the foil residuals
Some on the forums lean to the idea that the longer the foil takes to perforate, the less harm will be done to the vinyl.
Some also say, that the vinyl is much more hardy and elastic than the foil,
and it will not incur any breakdown of its structure.
I would like to think the more foil sheets placed in the bath, the less intensity of cavitation perforations produced, "to be proven" just a thought.
If proven, the more vinyl in the solution, the less intensity of cavitation.
As stated before, I will be doing a standard cleaning method with a knosti, to clean any handling residual marks,before a Record is put into the URCM
I like the idea of slowing the rotation down to 0.33 RPM and allowing for a Three Minute clean as a second cleaning regime for the vinyl. Followed by a luke warm distilled water rinse. Time lapse after first clean to be decided.
I will work out the best method for a first clean, i,e how many records in the bath, length of cleaning period. Followed by a luke warm distilled water rinse.
I sent a friend a link for a motor I had found, he claims it changes its RPM, by changing the input voltage, max speed is 0.5 RPM.
This is my initial investigation of creating my URCM, I hope that somebody with more savvy than myself, can contribute.

[Jac Hawk]

Well i've bitten the bullet and finally got one, this one (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultrasonic-Record-Cleaning-Machine-Drying-Tank-Fan-Complete-Bundle-Free-P-P/292633906458?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648) it will arrive Wednesday can't wait to give it a spin

[Jac Hawk]

I had been informed recently of a Aluminium Foil placed in the Bath test, it will be a visual test to check if there is a risk of harming the record.
Has anybody knowledge of this test ?

]

I wouldn't read too much in to that, look at it this way, if you covered an lp in foil stuck it on your TT got it up to speed then lowered your stylus onto it, how much damage would the diamond tip of the stylus do to the foil in just one pass

[Clive]

Well i've bitten the bullet and finally got one, this one (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultrasonic-Record-Cleaning-Machine-Drying-Tank-Fan-Complete-Bundle-Free-P-P/292633906458?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648) it will arrive Wednesday can't wait to give it a spin
Hopefully you're not expecting it to be an ultrasonic cleaner...

[Jac Hawk]

Hopefully you're not expecting it to be an ultrasonic cleaner...

don't get your point Clive

[Clive]

don't get your point Clive
You've replied on a thread about ultrasonic cleaners that you're getting one; I just wanted to clarify that spinclean isn't a US cleaner.

[Jac Hawk]

You've replied on a thread about ultrasonic cleaners that you're getting one; I just wanted to clarify that spinclean isn't a US cleaner.

keep scrolling down the page Clive and you'll see what i bought

[Clive]

keep scrolling down the page Clive and you'll see what i bought

Oh I see what's happened. Whatever you've bought is no longer available (because you've bought it) so ebay is trying to suggest something similar. Whatever you've bought doesn't show on my browser.

The listing you’re looking for is no longer available. Check out this similar item we found for you.

Edit - by clicking on another link it came up with: Ultrasonic Record Cleaning Machine + Drying Tank & Fan Complete Bundle Free P&P

[Jac Hawk]

bloody ebay :doh::doh:

[Jac Hawk]

how about now https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=292633906458&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=pr7+5tw&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=3&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1

[Clive]

how about now https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=292633906458&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=pr7+5tw&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=3&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1
That works! I very much look forward to reading your findings on how well it delivers. Hopefully really well!

[Jac Hawk]

To be honest Clive all the DIY ones (and i count mine in that category as it uses a stock ultrasonic tank and a similar spindle set up) should do an equally good job, i've read a lot of posts about these and the ones like the Degritter, i think in most cases people will be put off by the cost of the Degritter especially if you have to justify the purchase to the little lady, from what i've read all the ultrasonic machines seem to do a superior job at deep cleaning vinyl than the likes of the moth and others of that type so for me it's a no brainer.

When it arrives i'll try to do a before and after video of a particularly dirty record so you can hear the results.

[Berni217]

how about now https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=292633906458&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=pr7+5tw&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=3&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1

Nice bundle Mike. Good price.
I can see that the seller is using the GT Sonic tanks, which is well built and should last.


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[Berni217]

I have checked out information on the Aluminium Foil Test, and if there is a importance in it being carried out on a Ultrasonic Record Cleanng Machine, "URCM"
This is a relevant test and part of recording the functionality of the machine over time,it is wise to carry a test out at initial set up, hence the test foil sample should be stored and revisited as a observation/comparison against interval testing at approx 3 months apart. Storage/Archiving the sample could also be a photograph or scanned image.
The basic investigation of the foil test is to demonstrate the intensity and distribution of cavitation in the bath.
There are tutorials on line showing the procedure, and there are threads relating to the outcome of a foil test in a URCM in forums.
I have come to understand, that a solution clean will be required after a foil test, as residuals will be seen in the tank. I don't think any vinyl owner would want their vinyl in with the foil residuals
Some on the forums lean to the idea that the longer the foil takes to perforate, the less harm will be done to the vinyl.
Some also say, that the vinyl is much more hardy and elastic than the foil,
and it will not incur any breakdown of its structure.
I would like to think the more foil sheets placed in the bath, the less intensity of cavitation perforations produced, "to be proven" just a thought.
If proven, the more vinyl in the solution, the less intensity of cavitation.
As stated before, I will be doing a standard cleaning method with a knosti, to clean any handling residual marks,before a Record is put into the URCM
I like the idea of slowing the rotation down to 0.33 RPM and allowing for a Three Minute clean as a second cleaning regime for the vinyl. Followed by a luke warm distilled water rinse. Time lapse after first clean to be decided.
I will work out the best method for a first clean, i,e how many records in the bath, length of cleaning period. Followed by a luke warm distilled water rinse.
I sent a friend a link for a motor I had found, he claims it changes its RPM, by changing the input voltage, max speed is 0.5 RPM.
This is my initial investigation of creating my URCM, I hope that somebody with more savvy than myself, can contribute.

A bit complicated! I like to keep things simple and enjoy the music [emoji846]

My process explained in the first post is very straight forward and allows me to clean lots of LPs in a timely manner. I would not change it.

Only addition ... I have added a system to filter the solvent, which has improved things further.

The number of records cleaned at once will depend on the width of the selected tank as distance min. between records should be kept.
In my selected tank, there is no difference whether I clean 1 or 3 LPs at once. However, 3 records is the maximum allowed for an efficient cleaning in this 155 mm width tank. A larger US tank would be required otherwise.

[Jac Hawk]

Thanks Berni, The design seems good, i hope it lives up to my expectations

[Patrick Dixon]

Oh I see what's happened. Whatever you've bought is no longer available (because you've bought it) so ebay is trying to suggest something similar. Whatever you've bought doesn't show on my browser.

The listing you’re looking for is no longer available. Check out this similar item we found for you.


You have to click on the not-at-all-obvious link on the word 'listing' to see the thing you actually want. The children at ebay have been busy and messed it all up.

[Jac Hawk]

Well my new Ultrasonic cleaning kit arrived today, i got it off ebay and i must say it seems a well made bit of kit, i've used Bernis formula for the cleaning fluid and bought quality fluids rather than the cheapest i could find, i don't know if that will make any significant difference but my thinking is the purer the products i use the better the end result.

Anyway i followed previous posts, heated the bath up to 40 degrees C then degassed for 5 minutes before cleaning 3 particularly filthy 2nd hand lp's, the kit i bought has a fan attached to dry the lp's once washed so after the cleaning cycle had finished it took less than 5 minutes to completely dry the discs.

The results are really good, i mean i'm not going to turn a turd into a crock of gold, there are still a few crackles and pops, but the lp's that were once unlistenable are now in good listenable condition with the vast majority of surface noise removed as well as the sound produced being clearer and more focused if that makes sense.

So 1st impressions are very good, it's not going to magically fix surface damage and i guess that's the pops and crackles that i can still hear but it is a very easy way to get your vinyl as clean as it's ever going to be

[Berni217]

Well my new Ultrasonic cleaning kit arrived today, i got it off ebay and i must say it seems a well made bit of kit, i've used Bernis formula for the cleaning fluid and bought quality fluids rather than the cheapest i could find, i don't know if that will make any significant difference but my thinking is the purer the products i use the better the end result.

Anyway i followed previous posts, heated the bath up to 40 degrees C then degassed for 5 minutes before cleaning 3 particularly filthy 2nd hand lp's, the kit i bought has a fan attached to dry the lp's once washed so after the cleaning cycle had finished it took less than 5 minutes to completely dry the discs.

The results are really good, i mean i'm not going to turn a turd into a crock of gold, there are still a few crackles and pops, but the lp's that were once unlistenable are now in good listenable condition with the vast majority of surface noise removed as well as the sound produced being clearer and more focused if that makes sense.

So 1st impressions are very good, it's not going to magically fix surface damage and i guess that's the pops and crackles that i can still hear but it is a very easy way to get your vinyl as clean as it's ever going to be

Glad that you are starting to enjoy your new kit Mike. The reduced drying time with the fan is interesting, although the air drying time is also reduced with the hot weather.

You are right... damaged records cannot be fixed. However, very dirty LPs could benefit of a second round of cleaning (peace of mind)


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[Jac Hawk]

The reduced drying time with the fan is interesting, although the air drying time is also reduced with the hot weather.

To be honest the lp's were dry after a couple of minutes, i just wanted to be sure, i think the IPA content of the cleaning solution also helps reduce drying times

[Jac Hawk]

So round 2, after taking Bernis advice, i decided to slightly change the cleaning cycle and increase the time in the bath from 10 to 20 minutes, also i left the lp's spinning for a pre soak for about 5 minutes before turning the ultrasonics on, my thinking being it will allow the warm solution to get right to the bottom of all the grooves before the cleaning starts.

The results were not what i expected after last nights go, barely a pop or crackle anywhere and this is from old 1970's vinyl, ok the quality was better then than in the 80's but even so 40+ years old and it really sounds like it's just been opened and played for the 1st time, very very pleased.:):):):cool:

[Berni217]

So round 2, after taking Bernis advice, i decided to slightly change the cleaning cycle and increase the time in the bath from 10 to 20 minutes, also i left the lp's spinning for a pre soak for about 5 minutes before turning the ultrasonics on, my thinking being it will allow the warm solution to get right to the bottom of all the grooves before the cleaning starts.

The results were not what i expected after last nights go, barely a pop or crackle anywhere and this is from old 1970's vinyl, ok the quality was better then than in the 80's but even so 40+ years old and it really sounds like it's just been opened and played for the 1st time, very very pleased.:):):):cool:

Great. Interesting stuff!


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[Jac Hawk]

Some Photos of my new kit

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/jachawk9000/DSC_0396.jpg


http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/jachawk9000/DSC_0394.jpg

[alphaGT]

Hopefully once it’s cleaned, you won’t need to clean it again for a very long time? So, long term damage won’t be an issue. If it sounds so amazing after a 20 minute cleaning, it would seem no damage was done? So, it won’t need to be cleaned again for another 40 years? Or a good while anyway?

Russell

[Jac Hawk]

My view on potential damage caused by the action of cavitation goes back to the post about aluminium foil i.e. if i carefully wrapped an lp in foil then tried to play it on my TT how much damage would the stylus do to the foil? my guess is that it would be considerable, so baring that in mind how much more damage to the vinyl is cavitation going to do, an exploding bubble can't do as much damage as a sharp pointy diamond being dragged over the surface.

[struth]

As long as you don't use cavitation excessively there shouldn't be a problem.
After all it's pretty much doing the same job as an rcm Just the bubbles bursting is producing the friction. Use a higher ultrasonic transducer frequency and increase the number of bubbles at a smaller size and lower energy release per bubble.

It's all just heat and friction

[Jac Hawk]

To date i've cleaned 12 LP's, 4 batches of 3 and i think that's about as much as i can get out of one tank of cleaning solution without filtering it, here's a photo

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/jachawk9000/TcXSM7lQhKsyPFOggddXg.jpg

as you can see it's filthy and the LP's i cleaned were reasonably clean already or at least that's what i thought before i took a look at the cleaning fluid, now i don't want to have to replace 6 litres of cleaning fluid every time i clean 12 LP's so my thinking is i use a fuel filter connected with some tubing to the drain tap and basically filter the fluid into a couple of 5 litre containers every couple of uses, the filter should remove the particles and leave me with a useable fluid that's fit for purpose.

My other thought is that a certain amount of dirt is going to stick to the LP's as they're lifted out of the bath, i'm thinking of filling a plant sprayer with distilled water and give the vinyl a shower before i dry them

[Jazid]

My hypothesis is that at the point where the records are cleaned albeit in dirty solution, a classic RCM such as Loricraft would finish the job off a treat. However that's all it is, a hypothesis... I have no ultrasonic cleaner.

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[Clive]

I've seen the same with the Kirmuss. The large pieces cannot have come off the records in one piece. They must be combined particles...I hope so!

[Berni217]

To date i've cleaned 12 LP's, 4 batches of 3 and i think that's about as much as i can get out of one tank of cleaning solution without filtering it, here's a photo

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/jachawk9000/TcXSM7lQhKsyPFOggddXg.jpg

as you can see it's filthy and the LP's i cleaned were reasonably clean already or at least that's what i thought before i took a look at the cleaning fluid, now i don't want to have to replace 6 litres of cleaning fluid every time i clean 12 LP's so my thinking is i use a fuel filter connected with some tubing to the drain tap and basically filter the fluid into a couple of 5 litre containers every couple of uses, the filter should remove the particles and leave me with a useable fluid that's fit for purpose.

My other thought is that a certain amount of dirt is going to stick to the LP's as they're lifted out of the bath, i'm thinking of filling a plant sprayer with distilled water and give the vinyl a shower before i dry them

The dirt will not stick to the records ... therefore you can clean more records in the solvent.

For filtering, you need to use a 1 micron (at least). As stated in my line #9, you can find 1 micron filter socks on eBay.


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[Jac Hawk]

I've seen the same with the Kirmuss. The large pieces cannot have come off the records in one piece. They must be combined particles...I hope so!

i think so Clive, the effect of the ultrasonics when they're on seems to pull the particles into larger balls, even so i want to filter it, a 4 micron in line fuel filter is my thinking at the moment, but James is right when he says a classic vacuum RCM would lift all the loose crap off

[Jac Hawk]

I've look at the 1 micron filter socks and will go there only when i'm satisfied that a fuel filter won't cut it, my thinking is that 6 litres is a lot of fluid and i know how much time it took to filter the Knosti fluid when i had one of them, also i could easily attach an in line pump to constantly filter the fluid.

[Jazid]

If anyone with an ultrasonic cleaner is in striking distance of W. London and wants to try I can bring my Loricraft over to do exactly this. I'd be most interested in the outcome...

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[Berni217]

I have done a lot of research and tests on filtering (manual and auto) and found out that only 1 micron filters will get rid of all contaminants in the solvent.

Manual:
I am using a 1 micron filter sock cut and glued into a cone shape into a funnel. The flow rate is good at about 1 liter+/min.

The filter can be cleaned and re-used over and over. If the fluide is very dirty, one can use a coffee filter for a first stage filtering, over the 1 micron filter.

With the 3x filter socks bought on the bay, I can create more than 18 cone shapes filters, which will last a long long time.

Auto: This is wip as I want to be able to filter while the US tank is running.


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[Jac Hawk]

Without using an in line cartridge type filter i think you will struggle to be able to recirculate the cleaning fluid while the cleaner is in operation because the pump will either run too quickly or too slowly for your needs, i'm currently looking for an in line filter that goes down to 1 micron that is suitable, my plan so far is that i base everything on reducing the 15mm outlet down to 8mm which is a common size used for fuel systems in cars, once down to 8mm i can attach an in line filter and a 12v fuel pump from a car.

[sbank]

I use this 1 micron filter in this housing. While it's a USA vendor, it might give you some ideas and you can find same or similar locally.
https://www.allfilters.com/

Qty Model # Product Price Amount
1 HF2-5WHWH12 Hydronix HF2 1/2" White Body, White Flat Cap Housing (for 5" x 2.5" filters) $13.99 $13.99
6 SDC-25-0501 Hydronix 5" x 2.5" Polypropylene Sediment Filter, 1 Micron $1.50 $9.00

With this filter/housing and a small pump attached to the tank drain and the rubber output hose feeding back into the top of the tank, I run it 24/7. The tank stays clean, and I can clean 50-60 LPs over the course of a couple of months before I drain and refill the tank with a fresh batch of watch & chemicals.
The Rush Paul articles on audiogon and positive feedback detail the whole process.
Then with 2 manual spray/vacuum cycles on a modded lazy susan, any soapy residue etc. is removed and you're all set.

It's a lot easier than it sounds to use once you've got it set up. For me the tough part was getting the right parts from a local plumbing supply to connect the hoses to pump and tank drain without leaking. Hint: a little teflon tape is a lifesaver. Cheers,
Spencer

[Jac Hawk]

Nice one Spencer, that's what i've been looking for, out of interest what sort of pump do you use and do you have it running while the ultrasonics are on? btw what the hell is a lazy Susan:scratch::scratch:

[sbank]

Hi Jac,

A lazy susan is that spinning wood thing on Granny's dining table: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/90074483/
Just drill a hole for a threaded insert that will allow you to stack a few wide rubber washers(to lift LPs off the wood) and then screw a plastic star knob over the top of the record and the label-protecting plastic disc with o-rings from the VinylStack.
https://thevinylstack.com/ultrasonic-cleaning/ultra-sonic-spin-record-cleaning-kit/

The pump I use is this, although anything similar with low power should do the trick: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

To minimize headaches, bring the pump & filter housing with you to the local plumbing supply shop to make sure you get the correct diameter rubber tubing, and any needed adapting hardware, which might vary in size depending on the drain of your particular tank.

On my system page here you can see 3 pics at the bottom of my ultrasonic setup as described, which might be of some assistance.
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/133

Cheers.

[sbank]

Sorry forgot to answer your last question; I turn the pump off and remove the hose from the top of the tank when I run it, and then just drop the hose back in, weight it down with the tank lid, and turn it back on after I finish each cleaning session.

[Jac Hawk]

Thanks for that Spencer, the waste gate on my tank takes a 1/2 inch male connector so my thinking is that i attach the pump directly to the cleaner as it comes with 1/2 inch fittings, i take it that connecting the pump before the filter is the best way to hook things up, although i would imagine that doing it that way will put a fair amount of pressure through the filter canister especially the threaded joints where i guess you take the filter out and the inlet fitting.

looking at your photos, your tank is similar to mine but not identical, i was thinking that i would stick some of these https https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31D9qaH3M7L.jpg to the back of the tank with epoxy resin which would allow me to run a rigid copper or plastic pipe up the back of the tank

[sbank]

Those look good. Plastic tubing will be easier to clean or change if ever needed.

Pretty sure that the pump must be between drain and filter to function properly.

You are on your way, well done!

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[sbank]

Jac Hawk, Get it up and cleaning yet? Impressions?

[Jac Hawk]

Not yet Spencer, i've been busy with other things, however when i have time i'll be getting the filter you suggested