View Full Version : My Degritter is here
montesquieu
04-05-2018, 13:22
Just in time for the bank hol ... my Degritter is here.
I'm in the second wave of their Beta programme. Can't say much as we had to sign an NDA but I'm pleased so far. Lots of testing to come.
Always fancied an ultrasonic machine to complement the Loricraft, it will be interesting to assess their relative strengths.
https://i.imgur.com/F0ZFfo5.jpg
walpurgis
04-05-2018, 13:26
Thought it was a toaster for a moment. :)
Been looking at those. They go on sale on Tuesday I think.
Be interesting to hear your thoughts on how it compares to the Loricraft as I have been meaning to get an RCM for a while
Have fun testing it out!
Regards
Steve
montesquieu
04-05-2018, 14:42
Thought it was a toaster for a moment. :)
Would be pretty soggy bread!
rubber duck
04-05-2018, 14:43
Excellent Tom. Looking forward to comparisons with the Loricraft.
Berni217
04-05-2018, 22:01
Looks expensive Tom! If you fancy testing against my 40 kHz DIY ultrasonic device + Vinyl Stack, let me know.
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Looks expensive Tom! If you fancy testing against my 40 Hz DIY ultrasonic device + Vinyl Stack, let me know.
40Hz and ultrasonic?
Berni217
04-05-2018, 22:11
40Hz and ultrasonic?
I meant 40 kHz.
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I meant 40 kHz.
Ah - that makes more sense. What do you use as a transducer?
Berni217
04-05-2018, 22:24
I have simply bought the ultrasonic tank off Amazon ...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01M0SU85S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51aD1l4zpiL._SL500_AC_SS350_.jpg
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montesquieu
04-05-2018, 23:08
Yes I've seen this sort of setup. I'm sure must work pretty well.
Sorry, what's this got to do with hi-fi?:scratch:
Marco.
Sorry, what's this got to do with hi-fi?:scratch:
Marco.
It's about making an affordable ultrasonic record cleaner. Some users believe clean records sound better. Probably just a passing fad! ;)
Ali Tait
04-05-2018, 23:49
1800 Euro. Yikes!
montesquieu
05-05-2018, 00:05
1800 Euro. Yikes!
Much the same as a top of the line Loricraft.
Berni217
05-05-2018, 05:57
Yes I've seen this sort of setup. I'm sure must work pretty well.
It works a treat with a Vinyl Stack. I can clean up to 3 records at once ... Total cost was less than £400 ... [emoji13]
https://thevinylshack.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/vinylstack_0004-3.jpg
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Need to do a thread about it. Many would be interested
Berni217
05-05-2018, 06:36
Need to do a thread about it. Many would be interested
Will do ASAP.
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Cheers Bernie... always interest in this kind of thing.:)
I'll second that - and if suitable, and with the author's permission, could put it in The Knowledge as well for reference.
It's about making an affordable ultrasonic record cleaner.
Ah, I see... That wasn't exactly obvious, if you hadn't seen one of these things before!
Marco.
P.S Bearing in mind that post #11 (from Bernard) was the original opening post of this thread, until someone merged it with Tom's one on the same subject;)
[Note to mods: remember that subjects pertaining to vinyl accessories, such as this, go into Analogue Art, which is why this thread has been moved].
Primalsea
05-05-2018, 16:46
The names like Nitty Gritty and Degritter do make me chuckle. I’ve had a few dirty records but I don’t think any have ever had grit on them. Fluffy Buffy and Defluffer sound more appropriate to me.
montesquieu
05-05-2018, 18:07
The names like Nitty Gritty and Degritter do make me chuckle. I’ve had a few dirty records but I don’t think any have ever had grit on them. Fluffy Buffy and Defluffer sound more appropriate to me.
You’d be surprised what you find in the waste jar of the Loricraft after cleaning a few charity shop finds.
montesquieu
05-05-2018, 18:21
BTW I don't think it makes sense to join these things up. A pure ultrasonic DIY thread would be a useful thing for the forum. But the Degritter is a different thing entirely, it's a custom made bit of kit with motors, brushes, custom software and display - put a record in the slot, choose the options (cleaning time from three options, drying time to match or a custom overide, hit the buton and it's all automatic. It's not really competing with a DIY approach, more with the likes of Audiodesk (which I considered, but saw so many reports of mechanical issues decided against investivating) and to an extent with Keith Monks/Loricraft.
Lee Henley
05-05-2018, 18:51
Good to see you’ve brought one Tom, I’m looking to get one myself
ianlenco
05-05-2018, 19:02
Hi Bernard,
Was that the machine that I chatted to you about at the Wigwam show or was that someone else? It looked very interesting.
Berni217
07-05-2018, 11:09
Hi Bernard,
Was that the machine that I chatted to you about at the Wigwam show or was that someone else? It looked very interesting.
It was not me. Sorry.
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Berni217
07-05-2018, 11:14
BTW I don't think it makes sense to join these things up. A pure ultrasonic DIY thread would be a useful thing for the forum. But the Degritter is a different thing entirely, it's a custom made bit of kit with motors, brushes, custom software and display - put a record in the slot, choose the options (cleaning time from three options, drying time to match or a custom overide, hit the buton and it's all automatic. It's not really competing with a DIY approach, more with the likes of Audiodesk (which I considered, but saw so many reports of mechanical issues decided against investivating) and to an extent with Keith Monks/Loricraft.
I partially agree as the end result (cleaning records through an ultrasonic solution) is the same, regardless of the complexity of the system implemented.
I will start a separate thread as soon as the lovely sunny days are over [emoji6]
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DiveDeepDog
10-05-2018, 21:53
Hi Bernard,
Was that the machine that I chatted to you about at the Wigwam show or was that someone else? It looked very interesting.
It's Spider on the Wam and AA who's developed ultrasonic cleaner. Think he's doing small batches for fellow enthusiasts, I'm near and know Tim if you need any more info I'll point him this way.
Bigman80
10-05-2018, 22:14
How are you getting on with the Degritter Tom?
montesquieu
12-05-2018, 20:20
How are you getting on with the Degritter Tom?
It cleans superbly. I’m having a a few software glitches that for the most part I’ve been primed to expect so not too worried (this is the beta 2 release).
What had surprised me is that the put-it-in-the-slot-and-hit-the-button approach is addictive and I find myself cleaning more stuff more often than with the Loricraft.
The best clean of all is when I give it an alcohol-based one time clean each side on the Loricraft (rather than three passes each as usual) then stick it in the slot.
Short version - I’m impressed.
Bigman80
12-05-2018, 20:47
I'm really pleased, mate. The funds from the DAC sale will be going on a record cleaner. Any suggestions at the £400 Mark?
*edit, bought a Project jobbie*.
It cleans superbly. I’m having a a few software glitches that for the most part I’ve been primed to expect so not too worried (this is the beta 2 release).
What had surprised me is that the put-it-in-the-slot-and-hit-the-button approach is addictive and I find myself cleaning more stuff more often than with the Loricraft.
The best clean of all is when I give it an alcohol-based one time clean each side on the Loricraft (rather than three passes each as usual) then stick it in the slot.
Short version - I’m impressed.
It cleans superbly. I’m having a a few software glitches that for the most part I’ve been primed to expect so not too worried (this is the beta 2 release).
What had surprised me is that the put-it-in-the-slot-and-hit-the-button approach is addictive and I find myself cleaning more stuff more often than with the Loricraft.
The best clean of all is when I give it an alcohol-based one time clean each side on the Loricraft (rather than three passes each as usual) then stick it in the slot.
Short version - I’m impressed.
Software issues? What are those - are they a bit like programmable Microwave ovens; whereby you enter the type and weight of the food you want to cook, and it determines the power setting and the cooking time? Does you Degritter (and I'm still put off by the name, despite having a "Nitty Gritty" RCM) ask you the name of the recording company and the genre? ;)
montesquieu
13-05-2018, 20:52
Software issues? What are those - are they a bit like programmable Microwave ovens; whereby you enter the type and weight of the food you want to cook, and it determines the power setting and the cooking time? Does you Degritter (and I'm still put off by the name, despite having a "Nitty Gritty" RCM) ask you the name of the recording company and the genre? ;)
Really, nothing major at this point ... the odd error that I'm capturing as part of the beta program.
I quite like the name though I must say the thought of grit on my records is a bit of a worry ....:)
Berni217
14-05-2018, 15:39
I partially agree as the end result (cleaning records through an ultrasonic solution) is the same, regardless of the complexity of the system implemented.
I will start a separate thread as soon as the lovely sunny days are over [emoji6]
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As promised ...
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?58374-My-Ultrasonic-Record-Cleaner
montesquieu
14-05-2018, 21:59
A couple more details ... my beta version of the machine has an internal filter (replaceable but you have to open up the machine) to filter out the inevitable crap that falls out of the record (the jam jar on my loricraft where the vaccumed crap gets deposited makes you realise just how much muck is actually on the record or in the grooves - it's quite yukky stuff). The production ones will have a plug-in one on the back, and filtration will be attached to a cooling system that will prevent temperature rising above 40c which is considered safe maximum. The display can be switched to record the temperature, which gradually rises as the 120khz ultrasonic transducer deposits energy into the fluid - cleaning is paused at 40c so as not to damage the record.
My machine arrived during the recent heat wave so on the hottest evening I only got about 5 records done one after the other till it hit the maximum ... now we've got back to normal temperatures, I haven't hit maximum but the cooling device should ensure it never hits the 40c even if used continuously.
A couple more details ... my beta version of the machine has an internal filter (replaceable but you have to open up the machine) to filter out the inevitable crap that falls out of the record (the jam jar on my loricraft where the vaccumed crap gets deposited makes you realise just how much muck is actually on the record or in the grooves - it's quite yukky stuff). The production ones will have a plug-in one on the back, and filtration will be attached to a cooling system that will prevent temperature rising above 40c which is considered safe maximum. The display can be switched to record the temperature, which gradually rises as the 120khz ultrasonic transducer deposits energy into the fluid - cleaning is paused at 40c so as not to damage the record.
My machine arrived during the recent heat wave so on the hottest evening I only got about 5 records done one after the other till it hit the maximum ... now we've got back to normal temperatures, I haven't hit maximum but the cooling device should ensure it never hits the 40c even if used continuously.
not sure of the flashpoint figures for ipa in water, but assuming its higher than out of water. ipa boiling point is about 80c. Would not want it going above 40c myself.
montesquieu
14-05-2018, 22:07
not sure of the flashpoint figures for ipa in water, but assuming its higher than out of water. ipa boiling point is about 80c. Would not want it going above 40c myself.
Indeed it shuts off at 40c (actually was recording 37c the time it did it).
Having said that the Degritter uses a mixure of distilled water and a tiny bit of surfactant in the cleaning tank, there's no IPA in the cleaning solution. (I use an IPA mix on the Loricraft.)
Berni217
14-05-2018, 23:05
Indeed it shuts off at 40c (actually was recording 37c the time it did it).
Having said that the Degritter uses a mixure of distilled water and a tiny bit of surfactant in the cleaning tank, there's no IPA in the cleaning solution. (I use an IPA mix on the Loricraft.)
Interesting! I also use up to 40 C (The Ultrasonic tank shuts off at the selected temp). However, some guys on other forums said that they went up to 60 C without any damages to the records. I do not think that I want to try higher than 40 C as I have had great results so far.
Wasn't so much worried about records as it blowing up. Lol
Indeed it shuts off at 40c (actually was recording 37c the time it did it).
Having said that the Degritter uses a mixure of distilled water and a tiny bit of surfactant in the cleaning tank, there's no IPA in the cleaning solution. (I use an IPA mix on the Loricraft.)
No ipa is safer when heating it up. Much safer.
Audio Al
15-05-2018, 04:03
:( :worthless: :)
montesquieu
16-05-2018, 21:38
Interesting! I also use up to 40 C (The Ultrasonic tank shuts off at the selected temp). However, some guys on other forums said that they went up to 60 C without any damages to the records. I do not think that I want to try higher than 40 C as I have had great results so far.
I believe the worry about high temperatures is that the ultrasonic transducer itself generates heat and there can be tiny hot spots due to this - so the overall 40c temperature isn't the figure to worry about, so much as the potential for much higher temperatures in the bubbles down at groove level. Hence the Degritter switching off completely above 40c, and in the production version a cooling device to ensure even lower temperatures - to minimise the risk of very high temperatures where the cleaning beam is focused on the groove. With this in mind it's utter madness to clean records in a ultrasonic bath at 60c especially with IPA in the mix.
Having said that the Degritter uses a much higher frequency - 120kHz rather than 40 kHz - there's a lot more power being used and the emitters are directed at the record. Might not be such a need for such conservative measures with the bath method so long as overall temperatures are kept sensible.
montesquieu
11-06-2018, 16:59
Video done by another beta user, mine is a slightly later generation than this one though still not the release version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI6nLzBiQig
Lee Henley
16-06-2018, 06:44
Finally committed to getting one of these myself, the guys at Degritter say it should be with me in September this year, looking forward to it and hoping it ticks all the right boxes for me.
montesquieu
12-07-2018, 16:38
Just borrowed this, courtesy of Kedar ... AudioDesk Vinyl Pro. Degritter has gone back for upgrade to next beta version.
Interesting .. it cleans well enough, I've only had it working a day or so and don't have the Degritter here for a back to back comparison, but I think it's of broadly similar effectiveness to the Degritter.
However it feels a bit basic in terms of functionality to the Degritter, for example, no means to vary cleaning time or drying time (so if it doesn't clean first time you have to run the whole cycle again), also it's definitely noisier both during the cleaning cycle and also when the fan comes on, and it's no looker in terms of aesthetics. Has a bit of a 'previous generation' feel to it in my view but I guess the looks might appeal to some.
Great to get a play with it though and will be interesting when my Degritter comes back to do a full comparison on similar material (two records from a dusty box set for example).
Just a few sec of video as as it's pretty tedious filming let alone watching:
https://youtu.be/mBLDMFBsuhw
Makes my PHK attached to a Screwfix industrial Vacuum look a bit sad. :( Might try one of those tanks from Amazon though that along with the PHK set up in the living room should go down a treat with my beloved.
It works a treat with a Vinyl Stack. I can clean up to 3 records at once ... Total cost was less than £400 ... [emoji13]
https://thevinylshack.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/vinylstack_0004-3.jpg
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Most interesting! Super affordable.
Russell
montesquieu
14-07-2018, 08:17
There is a separate thread for DIY approaches to ultrasonic cleaning. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?58374-My-Ultrasonic-Record-Cleaner&highlight=ultrasonic
I looked into it but it’s really not what I want for the living room.
Yes the commercial machines are a lot more expensive but are far more easy on the eye, far more convenient to use on the fly (clean one record at a time when you want to listen to it - minimal faff) and a lot more marriage-friendly.
Indeed I don’t see these approaches as competitors at all ...
There is a separate thread for DIY approaches to ultrasonic cleaning. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?58374-My-Ultrasonic-Record-Cleaner&highlight=ultrasonic
I looked into it but it’s really not what I want for the living room.
Yes the commercial machines are a lot more expensive but are far more easy on the eye, far more convenient to use on the fly (clean one record at a time when you want to listen to it - minimal faff) and a lot more marriage-friendly.
Indeed I don’t see these approaches as competitors at all ...
Thing is....the diy machines can go in other rooms, eg a utility room, the DIY machines are well priced too. 2,500 Euros for a Degritter is far from marriage friendly.
montesquieu
14-07-2018, 13:50
Thing is....the diy machines can go in other rooms, eg a utility room, the DIY machines are well priced too. 2,500 Euros for a Degritter is far from marriage friendly.
Want to play a record and find it’s dirty or noisy? Nothing beats the convenience of putting it in the slot, hitting a button, waiting a couple of minutes and hey presto it’s clean and ready to play.
I’ve been through the faff of cleaning machines in another room, you end up with pile of dirty records staring at you that get done in fits and starts. Not the same thing at all.
The DIY approach I’m sure has it’s fans but as I say (and you appear to confirm) the appeal is to a different market.
Want to play a record and find it’s dirty or noisy? Nothing beats the convenience of putting it in the slot, hitting a button, waiting a couple of minutes and hey presto it’s clean and ready to play.
I’ve been through the faff of cleaning machines in another room, you end up with pile of dirty records staring at you that get done in fits and starts. Not the same thing at all.
The DIY approach I’m sure has it’s fans but as I say (and you appear to confirm) the appeal is to a different market.
I get your point entirely, I suppose there are multiple markets here. I have a Loricraft (as I think you do) in my listening room and could easily accommodate a US machine too but it is a dedicated listing room so there's no WAF issues. Have you done a detailed comparison with the Kirmuss which is less than half the price of the Degritter? £995 starts to become viable, more so with show discounts. €2,500 is too much for many. I would pay €2,500 if the results are spectacularly better that the £400 DIY and £995 Kirmuss.
montesquieu
14-07-2018, 15:08
I get your point entirely, I suppose there are multiple markets here. I have a Loricraft (as I think you do) in my listening room and could easily accommodate a US machine too but it is a dedicated listing room so there's no WAF issues. Have you done a detailed comparison with the Kirmuss which is less than half the price of the Degritter? £995 starts to become viable, more so with show discounts. €2,500 is too much for many. I would pay €2,500 if the results are spectacularly better that the £400 DIY and £995 Kirmuss.
Yes I have the Loricraft in the living room, whereas the Moth was in the study ... one of the reasons (apart from the noise) that I used it only a few times a year, in batches, with ear defenders.
I haven't seen the Kirmuss but from what I do know from the Degritter team, they are going in detail into microscopic analyses of the effects of the different emitter frequencies, much experimentation around positioning of emitters, cooling circuits to keep temperatures at safe levels, and a lot of work on the control software to enable much flexibility in the clean/dry cycles and so on. My sense is that for all it's one button (actually two button) simplicity, they are going all out to build a premium product. They have some seriously qualified engineers working on the product.
Whether there's a big market at 2500 Euros remains to be seen ... my gut feel says that much over £1500-£1600 ('street' price of a top of the range Loricraft) it's going to be a struggle to shift sufficient boxes, but what do I know .. I did get a distinction in the Strategic Marketing module of my MBA many years ago, but obviously I haven't seen the market research data on which I assume the target price was based...
Whether there's a big market at 2500 Euros remains to be seen ... my gut feel says that much over £1500-£1600 ('street' price of a top of the range Loricraft) it's going to be a struggle to shift sufficient boxes, but what do I know .. I did get a distinction in the Strategic Marketing module of my MBA many years ago, but obviously I haven't seen the market research data on which I assume the target price was based...
I'm in the process of retiring so I expect my marketing skills will become outdated soon; I however recall a nice comment. You are going for a hole in the market but is the a market in your hole?
Of course costs come into this but has the kickstarter covered these I wonder? Do they want to sell a few at over £2k+ or eg 3 times as many at £1.5k. Can they cope with higher levels of sales? I don't suppose even at £1k there's a market to sell that many so starting out selling it at a premium is worth a try.
montesquieu
14-07-2018, 15:53
I'm in the process of retiring so I expect my marketing skills will become outdated soon; I however recall a nice comment. You are going for a hole in the market but is the a market in your hole?
Of course costs come into this but has the kickstarter covered these I wonder? Do they want to sell a few at over £2k+ or eg 3 times as many at £1.5k. Can they cope with higher levels of sales? I don't suppose even at £1k there's a market to sell that many so starting out selling it at a premium is worth a try.
As it stands, to do what they want to do the way they want to do it, manufacturing costs are pretty high. Whether these can be brought down as production ramps remains to be seen I guess. They are definitely going for a different user than you average 'how cheap can I do this?/out to beat the system' forum goer. But then again so is most of the hifi industry! I can imagine people like us are a bit of a pain in the arse to a lot of the industry.
I can imagine people like us are a bit of a pain in the arse to a lot of the industry.
That's very true. I'm in contact with a speaker company who are to introduce a speaker priced at several thousand pounds. The sound is nice....ie safe without being incisive. It'll be impressive but not what we might think of as high end. The market is for people with lots of money but not hifi nerds or forum users....we just don't spend that sort or money or if we do it's for something more special but more demanding too.
montesquieu
25-07-2018, 23:12
Well the Degritter is back, the latest Beta version, getting closer to what will be the release product, but not quite yet. It seems that one of the mods is to have made the fan quieter, (significantly quieter it seemed to me), so I downloaded a db measurement tool on my iPhone. Not calibrated of course so this can only be indicative, but an interesting exercise all the same.
All measured at 1m from the device. These figures are maxima within each cycle, at times both machines were slightly quieter than this. Room background was 39db - it’s quiet here! (Measurements were done around 10pm). Note also that the Degritter is still in development so these numbers may well change again for the better before full production).
Degritter on Medium cycle (presets are Quick, Medium and Heavy and clean/dry time can each be customised to any value between 0 and 5 minutes on each cycle)
- Washing 62db - 3 minutes (Medium default)
- Drying 62db - 3 minutes (Medium default)
Total 6 minutes
Audio Desk Vinyl Pro - only one cycle available, not variable
- Washing 64db - 1 minute 30
- Drying 73db - 4 minutes 30
Total 6 minutes
As you can see the Audio Desk is MUCH noisier during the dry cycle and it’s also less smooth in its noise over both cycles. And not any quicker overall to compensate. I was impressed that the Degritter drying number is barely louder than the one when cleaning which is an impressive leap forward.
Beyond the noise question ... my impression remains that both clean rather well. I think the Audio Desk gets away with the shorter cleaning cycle as it has the spinning brushes which I think do help its effectiveness, but at the end of the six minute combined cycle time there isn't much if anything between the two, while of course for very dirty records the Degritter cleaning time can be increased up to five minutes which would certainly be beneficial for charity shop finds etc.
Best clean of all was still when I did a single clean once each side on the Loricraft using an alcohol mix cleaner with surfactant and a bush, then vacuum, before putting them in the ultrasonic machines. Without the ultrasonic machines I generally would do three cleans either side so that’s still saving a huge amount of time and effort, while the overall result is better than can be achieved with the Loricraft alone.
Beyond that, as devices to live with, having both of them side by side ... for my taste looks and ergonomics of the Degritter work better and for me, while the controllability is something that I don't think that I could live without, having had it. Not to say that the AudioDesk isn't a good machine - it works perfectly well - but I don't think I'd want to swap.
Crap pic taken in artificial light I'll try and get a better one.
https://i.imgur.com/PyaYcqW.jpg
I definitely prefer the looks of the Degritter, nice looking unit.
Russell
Lee Henley
09-03-2019, 16:43
Had confirmation yesterday that finally after all the production delays my Degritter is finally on its way, looking forward to cleaning a few of the charity shop finds on the machine
montesquieu
09-03-2019, 20:29
Had confirmation yesterday that finally after all the production delays my Degritter is finally on its way, looking forward to cleaning a few of the charity shop finds on the machine
I've been told my unofficially my production version is shipping shortly thought haven't heard formally - did they send courier info?
Lee Henley
10-03-2019, 10:51
I've been told my unofficially my production version is shipping shortly thought haven't heard formally - did they send courier info?
Hi Tom
Yes mate I had an email from UPS with the tracking details etc, I also had an email from the guys at Degritter. Apparently Taniel had taken a turn for the worst with his recent appendicitis but he’s recovering now
Lee
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