Softening of the harsh highs

[magiccarpetride]

I have a number of LPs in my library that are not the most pleasant thing to listen to. Usually it's the harshness of the highs that makes me get up and take the LP off the turntable. Surprisingly (or maybe not so surprisingly), there seem to be quite a lot of LPs that sound way harsher than poorly mastered CDs. You sometimes ask yourself (while listening to a badly mastered, badly pressed LP): "Where is that vinyl 'warmth' that people are talking about?"

Lately I started noticing an interesting phenomenon -- as my turntable upgrades seem to be burning-in, some LPs that I used to cringe putting on started sounding acceptable. The most recent 'discovery' -- Big Brother And The Holding Company "Cheap Thrills". I remember last year listening to it and cringing from the onslaught of hard, harsh screechy highs. Last night I put the same LP on, and lo and behold, the screechiness has all but disappeared, to be replaced with silky, pleasant highs!

So my puzzlement is: what changed? What modification in one's front-end chain could contribute to this much needed improvement? Is it the tonearm upgrade, or the phono upgrade, or the cable upgrade, or some undefined 'synergy' between components that is now manifesting itself once all the components have settled in?

[walpurgis]

What cable are you using between the phono stage and amp input?

[struth]

cartridge can do it, if not set right or maybe brand spanking

[magiccarpetride]

What cable are you using between the phono stage and amp input?

Audioquest Red River.

[walpurgis]

Audioquest Red River.

That should be fine. I've found some cables after the phono stage can have a bad effect.

[magiccarpetride]

That should be fine. I've found some cables after the phono stage can have a bad effect.

So that bad effect affects all LPs, or only select ones? Because most of my LPs sound fine, but there is a number of the bad sounding ones. I reckon any/some of the components were the culprit for the bad sound, their effect would be audible on all records, not just on some.

[walpurgis]

Yes that would affect all records played.

However, some records just don't sound as good as others.

[struth]

Some might have damage in grooves and this cart currently showing thus up. It's not unusual for this to have happened even with your own records and may have sounded ok with another cart. Stylus profiles are different

[magiccarpetride]

Yes that would affect all records played.

However, some records just don't sound as good as others.

True. What I find surprising (in a pleasant way) is how some of the records that used to sound not so good suddenly come to life after some equipment upgrade. Not all of the bad sounding ones get improved, but some definitely do.

[Primalsea]

I think sometimes too you can have a nasty resonance that doesn’t quite cause obvious sibilance but does make highs a bit aggressive. Changing or modifying anything to do with the arm or cart can fix this. I think sometimes the loading of the cart can cause peaks also.

[Sherwood]

As we age our high frequency hearing deteriorates. I am sure this is not relevant here though!:)

[speedracer]

As we age our high frequency hearing deteriorates. I am sure this is not relevant here though!:)

I was always of that opinion too, but I have found I am becoming more intolerant of certain high frequencies, in particular some LP's I happily listened to in the '70's, like ELP, Led Zep, 'Tull for example I can't stand to listen to them now, & they aren't duff pressings either.

[magiccarpetride]

As we age our high frequency hearing deteriorates. I am sure this is not relevant here though!:)

True, we lose the ability to hear high frequencies. Which should make those unpleasant, screechy LPs suddenly sound mellow and pleasant. Sadly, that's not the case, for some reason :scratch:

[Stratmangler]

True, we lose the ability to hear high frequencies. Which should make those unpleasant, screechy LPs suddenly sound mellow and pleasant. Sadly, that's not the case, for some reason :scratch:

Two points - first off, have you not heard of harmonics?
Second - the frequencies you're noticing have strong fundamentals below 10kHz.

[jandl100]

I reckon that screech usually resides in the 5 - 7 KHz region.

[magiccarpetride]

I reckon that screech usually resides in the 5 - 7 KHz region.

The assumption here is that old people can hear frequencies above 5 kHz?

[Macca]

The assumption here is that old people can hear frequencies above 5 kHz?

The deaf ones can't, but then I suppose they don't listen to music much so the problem sort of solves itself.

[vintagesteve]

The first thing I would do is focus a 40x magnifier on the stylus and clean as appropriate. Eliminate stylus cleanliness. After that get the harsh sounding records professionally cleaned to as near pristine condition as possible using a KM machine. Otherwise poorer quality cables = more capacitance = more mellow, less harsh or bright sound. That a certain record sounds harsh points directly to an issue with that record and/or the stylus/cartridge/arm setup/condition and how it is interfacing with particular records. Cables are highly unlikely to be the problem - in my opinion.

[magiccarpetride]

The first thing I would do is focus a 40x magnifier on the stylus and clean as appropriate. Eliminate stylus cleanliness. After that get the harsh sounding records professionally cleaned to as near pristine condition as possible using a KM machine. Otherwise poorer quality cables = more capacitance = more mellow, less harsh or bright sound. That a certain record sounds harsh points directly to an issue with that record and/or the stylus/cartridge/arm setup/condition and how it is interfacing with particular records. Cables are highly unlikely to be the problem - in my opinion.

But if the stylus is the cause of harshness, shouldn't ALL my LPs sound harsh? In this case only a few select LPs sound harsh.

[vintagesteve]

But if the stylus is the cause of harshness, shouldn't ALL my LPs sound harsh? In this case only a few select LPs sound harsh.

1) I would do it anyway, just to eliminate it.
2) Like I said, the effect of a dirty stylus could have a greater effect with certain records, the relationship is complex and not all records 'sound the same' - apart from in the obvious way!

Just my suggestions. I was amazed at how dirty my stylus was before I used a magnifier. Previously I had just given it a cursory, careful brush every now and then thinking that it would be enough, it wasn't. And at that time, I was hearing harshness on certain records. Super cleaned the stylus - gone.

[magiccarpetride]

1) I would do it anyway, just to eliminate it.
2) Like I said, the effect of a dirty stylus could have a greater effect with certain records, the relationship is complex and not all records 'sound the same' - apart from in the obvious way!

Just my suggestions. I was amazed at how dirty my stylus was before I used a magnifier. Previously I had just given it a cursory, careful brush every now and then thinking that it would be enough, it wasn't. And at that time, I was hearing harshness on certain records. Super cleaned the stylus - gone.

I bought my cartridge 6 weeks ago. I never play records that haven't been thoroughly washed and vacuumed in my RCM. Plus, I always clean my stylus using Magic Eraser plus the stylus brush before each play. Doubt that in 6 weeks' time it could get so dirty to cause harshness.

[vintagesteve]

I bought my cartridge 6 weeks ago. I never play records that haven't been thoroughly washed and vacuumed in my RCM. Plus, I always clean my stylus using Magic Eraser plus the stylus brush before each play. Doubt that in 6 weeks' time it could get so dirty to cause harshness.

Most probably true. Like I say, a good magnifier is a good tool to have around anyway. You never know, a dirty record could have 'glued' some detritus on to the stylus.

[Macca]

Give us some examples of the records that sound harsh.

[sq225917]

1. Try the records on another hifi, that will identify the records or the hifi.
If it's the records suck it up and buy new and sort out your cart set-up before you screw the new records.

2. If it's the hifi check stylus is clean.
3. Check cart is undamaged.
4. Check aligment
5. Check SRA
6. Check tracking weight
7. Check cart loading
8. Calculate effective mass and suspension compliance to give you resonant freq of arm. Add in suspension R.Freq and fix with weight on headshell or damping if required

If all good swap cable to phono if possible.
If not swap phono
If that bears no fruit swap pre-amp.
Then power amp
Then speakers
Then listening position and room treatments.

If none of that helps go see an audiologist.

My money is on poor set-up having worn records and arm-cart interaction

[magiccarpetride]

Give us some examples of the records that sound harsh.

Big Brother And The Holding Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_%26_the_Holding_Company_(album))

[magiccarpetride]

1. Try the records on another hifi, that will identify the records or the hifi.
If it's the records suck it up and buy new and sort out your cart set-up before you screw the new records.

2. If it's the hifi check stylus is clean.
3. Check cart is undamaged.
4. Check aligment
5. Check SRA
6. Check tracking weight
7. Check cart loading
8. Calculate effective mass and suspension compliance to give you resonant freq of arm. Add in suspension R.Freq and fix with weight on headshell or damping if required

If all good swap cable to phono if possible.
If not swap phono
If that bears no fruit swap pre-amp.
Then power amp
Then speakers
Then listening position and room treatments.

If none of that helps go see an audiologist.

My money is on poor set-up having worn records and arm-cart interaction

So your diagnosis still stands even after you learn that out of my 500+ LPs, only a few sound harsh? The rest sound gorgeous. That despite something wrong with my setup? Are you sure?

[tubehunter]

I have the 2016 flac release of that album in 24bit 192khz.

Most of the recording is fine but on certain songs the nature of Janis’s voice is always going to sound harsh.

That’s what Janis did.

Happy Days

[magiccarpetride]

I have the 2016 flac release of that album in 24bit 192khz.

Most of the recording is fine but on certain songs the nature of Janis’s voice is always going to sound harsh.

That’s what Janis did.

Happy Days

Sure. I have all her LPs, and only on this LP does her voice sound harsh.

[Mikeandvan]

Try a record by The Fall, they always sound harsh:lol:

[magiccarpetride]

Try a record by The Fall, they always sound harsh:lol:

Why should I try that?