Would I damage my speakers if...

[pandoraefretum]

Would I damage my speakers if..... I were horizontal bi-amping and accidentally ran a lot more current into the bass than into the treble (or vice-versa) ?
Speakers are DALI Opticon 6 (using internal crossover) - Intended Amps: Arcam Integrated A39 x 2 (120W per channel at 8 Ohms)

Thanks, Roland

[Macca]

Yes if you run too much power to the tweeters. The bass unit will probably handle it provided you don't run full power through it for any length of time.

[pandoraefretum]

Yes if you run too much power to the tweeters. The bass unit will probably handle it provided you don't run full power through it for any length of time.

.. in which case I would hear that there's way to much power to the tweeters, right ?

[struth]

Maybe not. They could blow very quickly

[walpurgis]

I doubt you'd get any warning.

[pandoraefretum]

What's "horizontal" bi-amping? Is that one power amp for L & R bass, and another power amp for L & R tweeters? If so, I suppose it would be possible to turn up the tweeters to frazzle levels while keeping the bass at normal levels and the overall sound wouldn't be especially loud. However, you would (should?) notice that the sound is overly bright and would (should?) do something corrective before its too late. But surely, if you're running all four channels of amplification from one pre-amp, it would be impossible to turn up the tweeters without turning up the bass drivers.

Why do you ask?

Horizontal = One integrated amp for bass and one for treble...
Each amp has a volume control of its own
I think I would hear something horribly wrong way before I blew the tweeters... but good that I am warned beforehand of potential blunders
You're asking why 2x A39 integrated amps ? because they're on offer at 60% RRP and the dedicated "matching" power amp costs 4x the price of a discounted A39

[walpurgis]

I think I would hear something horribly wrong way before I blew the tweeters.

No you won't. They tend to blow instantly, without warning.

[struth]

If the 2 Amps could be run off a pre then it would be safer. Or go vertical biamping

[Pharos]

I have a friend who is running a pair of JBL K2 S9800 speakers with Benchmark amplifiers, and these are horizontally bi-amped. He has split the pre out into each of the power amps, using only the one pre volume control.

It should be possible to guesstimate fairly accurately the relative levels of top and bass by ear, but dependant upon the Xover point, the energy to the tweeters will be considerably lower than to the woofers, and IMO you are unlikely to blow them unless playing silly and/or clipping levels.

[Stryder5]

If the 2 Amps could be run off a pre then it would be safer. Or go vertical biamping

If you use a passive pre, setting both amps at the same dial volume, starting at say half volume, this should mitigate any issues I would have thought. Removing the chance of inadvertently increasing the volume on one amp. The passive pre is now master volume.

You now have variable gain power amps, which can have useful benefits?

[pandoraefretum]

Thanks, these are good answers that raise my awareness
I was thinking of using the 2 outputs of my DAC last night, and made this diagram
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roland64/41678289741/in/album-72157690276465420/

Hoping someone might have a look ; will I run into phase or timing issues between treble and bass ?
I think this way will make it easier (and foolproof) to set the correct level of treble

[Stryder5]

Thanks, these are good answers that raise my awareness
I was thinking of using the 2 outputs of my DAC last night, and made this diagram
[url]https://www.flickr.com/photos/roland64/41678289741/in/album-72157690276465420/[/

Hoping someone might have a look ; will I run into phase or timing issues between treble and bass ?
I think this way will make it easier (and foolproof) to set the correct level of treble

I have looked at your diagram :-

As I see it you are limiting yourself to just digital source?

I cannot ascertain whether to two outputs are identically timed.

You still have the issue of adjusting the volume to both amps, as the variable output (as you would expect) is the only one controlled. I don't think this is foolproof.


Perhaps you could reiterated what you are trying to achieve please. Do you want to use two identical amps for cost benefits or are you trying to control tweeter output for choice?

If the first then solution #11 is more elegant and foolproof and leaves the option of tweaking the tweeter amp. A passive pre ( such as Tisbury) has 3 inputs so you are not limited to one source.

[pandoraefretum]

I plan on 2 Sources : My DAC can accept Coax in from SaCD player and USB from laptop FLAC files (also I can still use Pre-Out of Amp1 to Aux in of Amp2... for another method)
(Also I have another CD player with 2 outputs)
On the DAC the variable out at max is identical to the fixed out (according to manufacturer)
As long as the 2 amps are set to identical volumes, it would be very unlikely I force the tweeters by mistake
I have 2 identical Integrated Amps (manufacturer does not make a matching power amp)... the one suggested in the manual costs 4x the price of the integrated

My reason is to use 1 amp for treble and another for bass... I have had horizontal bi-amping for 10 years (Arcam A90+P90)

[shane]

Since the a39 has a preamp output facility I’d run one amp as slave of the other. Connect the preamp output of one amp to a line level input of the other, tat way the volume control of the first amp will control both, and whatever inputs you have into the first amp will feed through to the second. Once you’ve set the relative volume levels using the second amp volume control, you won’t need to touch it again.

[pandoraefretum]

Since the a39 has a preamp output facility I’d run one amp as slave of the other. Connect the preamp output of one amp to a line level input of the other, tat way the volume control of the first amp will control both, and whatever inputs you have into the first amp will feed through to the second. Once you’ve set the relative volume levels using the second amp volume control, you won’t need to touch it again.

Completely, correct ; this is the first method that came to mind (and probably end up doing just that)... still which amp to use as treble and which as bass?
I also have a subwoofer to add to the speaker terminals....

[shane]

... still which amp to use as treble and which as bass?.

Can’t imagine it would make much difference. There is a case or saying use the first amp for the hf as it’s power supply won’t be working as hard which will benefit the performance of the preamp section, but if there’s any audible difference then Arcam’s Psu designers aren’t as good as I thought they were!

[Pharos]

My friend has just changed his to vertical at my recommendation, which was on the basis of the power supply loading, and he says it actually sounds better.

[alphaGT]

I bi-amped my speakers this way for a few years. I used a smaller amp for the top end, and a larger one for the bass.

I had my trusty Forte’ Model 3, about 150 to 200watts per, and I borrowed an amp from my bands PA, a Crown XLS2500, supposed to be about 475 watts per, a class D amp. The Crown had gain knobs on the front, so it was easy to adjust the bass as needed. I found it nice to be able to control this for different recordings. I ran separate leads from the two main outputs on my preamp, the Forte’ being single ended, and the Crown being balanced.

And I don’t think too much wattage up top will instantly fry your tweeters with no warning. If you start turning the volume up slowly, hopefully you could hear that the treble was way too strong before you reached the volume level needed to blow the tweeter. Unless you were wreckless and just cranked it up! For the sake of Rock and Roll! Or the amp was a mile too big, McIntosh Kilowatt Monoblocks or something?

Russell

[alphaGT]

And.....

If you have two amps exactly alike, what is the difference between vertical and horizontal? Basically, you’ve got 4 mono amps, in two stereo boxes, what difference will it make which way you wire it? If they have bridged settings, I’d prefer to use them as Monoblocks. And let the crossover do it’s thing.

Russell

[pandoraefretum]

If you start turning the volume up slowly, hopefully you could hear that the treble was way too strong before you reached the volume level needed to blow the tweeter. Unless you were wreckless and just cranked it up!

Russell

Thank you very much Russell for your input... these are my thoughts too.
120 wpc into 8 ohms, but the speakers are DALI opticon 6 which are 4 ohm

[pandoraefretum]

Could anyone please look at my Vertical Biamp diagram
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roland64/27870303558/in/album-72157690276465420/
and let me know if the wiring is correct?

Possibly also check my Horizontal Biamp diagram?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roland64/26871493307/in/album-72157690276465420/

No idea which sounds best... but 2 things to consider

1) The amps are integrated ; the gain control characteristics will differ completely from Vertical to Horizontal
2) The DAC has 2 outs : Fixed and Variable.. I don't know how seamless using both together will work. In both cases the variable out can be used to attenuate the treble 1 or 2 notches (might be a nice feature)

Thanks in advance for any help

[Macca]

The DAC will output from both fixed and variable simultaneously?

[pandoraefretum]

The DAC will output from both fixed and variable simultaneously?

That's right.. the DAC outputs simultaneously from fixed and variable outputs...
The variable at max is the same as the fixed. Whether or not this will present timing or phase issues remains to be seen.

The manufacturer's support staff didn't criticise my method in any particular way

[Macca]

Looks okay to me then. Although I'm not accepting any liability ;)

It's a bit of a lash up though. You won't get any benefit over using just one amp that is comfortable driving the whole speaker. But I suppose you know that.

[pandoraefretum]

Looks okay to me then. Although I'm not accepting any liability ;)

You won't get any benefit over using just one amp that is comfortable driving the whole speaker. But I suppose you know that.

No, I don't know that.
In truth, I am hoping for a little more... of course
I know what I hear (I'm a professional musician) so I will judge it when I hear it, not before.
Thx for following

[walpurgis]

It's a bit of a lash up though. You won't get any benefit over using just one amp that is comfortable driving the whole speaker. But I suppose you know that.

I agree. The speakers are quoted as having 89db sensitivity. In theory that would give in the region of 130db at the max specified amp output of 150 watts. Not that I think the speakers would actually manage that. Anyway, 100db loudness is more than enough and that would require a mere 15 watts. Assuming the spec is for each speaker singly, you can bung another 3db on for a pair working.

[Macca]

Sorry Roland I wasn't criticising. I'm interested in how it pans out. I suspect you may well get an improvement in sound quality, it all depends on how difficult a load the speaker is and how good the Arcam amps are at driving them. If one amp is not comfortable doing it all then adding another should improve things. If one can drive them comfortably then it won't. The only real test is to try it and see.

[pandoraefretum]

Sorry Roland I wasn't criticising. I'm interested in how it pans out. I suspect you may well get an improvement in sound quality, it all depends on how difficult a load the speaker is and how good the Arcam amps are at driving them. If one amp is not comfortable doing it all then adding another should improve things. If one can drive them comfortably then it won't. The only real test is to try it and see.

I agree with you, completely, Martin. I really don't know how the result will pan out in practice.
Previously I had B&W 704 floor-standers (the ones that came out 10 years ago, not the new ones)- they were a little hard for my 90Watt A90 to push; the sound was a little forced.. but when I added a P90 to the bass, I got a much more relaxed sound.

With my new system I am totally prepared to accept a result that shows little or no gain in bi-amping.
But I do want to try it out ! First I have to order a Hifi rack that will accommodate the 2x A39 ; they are so non-standard in size (depth) !!

[pandoraefretum]

I agree. The speakers are quoted as having 89db sensitivity. In theory that would give in the region of 130db at the max specified amp output of 150 watts. Not that I think the speakers would actually manage that. Anyway, 100db loudness is more than enough and that would require a mere 15 watts. Assuming the spec is for each speaker singly, you can bung another 3db on for a pair working.

On paper I gain nothing... in practice... we shall see.
I have never tried Vertical bi-amping. I need to at least try.. as I do own 2 identical integrated amps.

[struth]

Ive done vertical with integrated Amps. I now use 2 monos Which can be better and worse depending On current requirements

[Pharos]

After my JBL friend changed to vertical, I looked at the manual and JBL recommend vertical.

Advantages; equal loading of each amp's power supply, and much shorter speaker wires.

[alphaGT]

Thank you very much Russell for your input... these are my thoughts too.
120 wpc into 8 ohms, but the speakers are DALI opticon 6 which are 4 ohm

I ran my stereo this way for a few years probably, and it was quite satisfying at times, but I’ve got big Legacy Focus speakers, and even with the big amp on the bottom I felt like it could be better. So, I saved up my dimes and bought a huge 300 watt Krell, used. And the bi amp setup in no way comes close to what I’ve got now. It’s a whole new stereo! Twice what it was before.

Remember that the factory designs the internal crossover to work with a single amp. Most manufacturers put separate posts for bi amping or bi wiring, because it’s what the consumers want. But when you bi amp, you are side stepping their design efforts in the crossover. While they still work, filtering out lows from the high, and highs from the low, you are taking on some of the design elements yourself, when deciding how many watts go high or low. I still encourage you to go ahead and try it! I don’t think you’ll hurt anything. And you just never know, it could be audio nirvana! But personally I’ve gone with one big amp over two small amps. It just worked out that way for me, it doesn’t mean it’s the only way to go. And now days most preamps do not have any tone controls. So being able to tilt the spectrum one way or the other is a big advantage in many rooms. So have at it, and let us know how it works out. I’d be very interested to know how this turns out.

Russell

[alphaGT]

Could anyone please look at my Vertical Biamp diagram
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roland64/27870303558/in/album-72157690276465420/
and let me know if the wiring is correct?

Possibly also check my Horizontal Biamp diagram?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roland64/26871493307/in/album-72157690276465420/

No idea which sounds best... but 2 things to consider

1) The amps are integrated ; the gain control characteristics will differ completely from Vertical to Horizontal
2) The DAC has 2 outs : Fixed and Variable.. I don't know how seamless using both together will work. In both cases the variable out can be used to attenuate the treble 1 or 2 notches (might be a nice feature)

Thanks in advance for any help

I like the second one

Russell