View Full Version : Silver WBT or KLE Pure Harmony RCA Plugs
I am looking at making up some new cables, and I want some decent plugs.
The two listed seem like the top contenders.
Does anybody have direct experience of the two?
I am looking at making up some new cables, and I want some decent plugs.
The two listed seem like the top contenders.
Does anybody have direct experience of the two?
The KLE plugs are very good indeed Kevin, I am using the KLE Silver Harmony and they are way better than my Chord VEE3 plugs. They don't look particularly expensive but they sound superb. Of course WBT are great plugs too especially some of their top end stuff.
Bigman80
22-04-2018, 18:03
KLE for me too (as you no doubt are aware) not been impressed with the WBT at any point.
The KLE plugs I am looking at are "pure silver" to go on the end of a silver cable.
Or should that be "KLEI PureSilver" alloy. Marketing speak again...
Bigman80
22-04-2018, 18:38
They use pure silver for contact. They are rated highest for conductivity.
Not as high as the absolute harmony version. ;)
walpurgis
22-04-2018, 18:52
They use pure silver for contact. They are rated highest for conductivity.
That's debatable. The outer contact is tiny. The outer concentric contact on any regular gold plated copper phono plug is likely to have a greater conductive contact area and definitely has greater conductor cross-section.
Bigman80
22-04-2018, 18:52
That's debatable. The outer contact is tiny. The outer concentric contact on any regular gold plated copper phono plug is likely to have a greater conductive contact area and definitely has greater conductor cross-section.The contact for the signal I meant. Not the ground. I'm not sure that's silver.
walpurgis
22-04-2018, 18:54
The contact for the signal I meant. Not the ground. I'm not sure that's silver.
Surely they should have equal conductivity?
Bigman80
22-04-2018, 18:56
Pure KLE Plugs = Signal/Ground pins are pure Silver and >106% IACS.
Absolute KLE plugs = Signal/Ground pins utilise Absolute KLEI™PureSilver with >106% IACS conductivity.
They are the same, No?
Bigman80
22-04-2018, 18:59
Just wanted to check without making an assumption, Geoff.
walpurgis
22-04-2018, 19:05
The conductivity and resistivity of silver and copper are pretty close. If the conductor is big enough, neither should be superior to the other in handling small currents. I've used (and still have) silver cables and don't regard them as necessarily better than copper. Not bothered with silver plugs.
Stryder5
22-04-2018, 19:09
Just wanted to check without making an assumption, Geoff.
Both positive (signal) and negative (ground) are silver or silver plate depending on which KLEI plug is being used.
Bigman80
22-04-2018, 19:13
I made up a set of my SPOTFIRE cables recently and used a set of gold plated Eichmann Bullet Plugs i had lying around. There's definitely a difference. They don't quite meet the levels of "AIR" of the KLEI harmony plugs in the HF. There's not much in it, but its different. Whether "better" or not is a matter of taste.
Bigman80
22-04-2018, 19:14
Cheers, Gary.
sq225917
22-04-2018, 19:58
Why worry solder is way less conductive than even copper
walpurgis
22-04-2018, 19:59
Why worry solder is way less conductive than even copper
That should make no difference.
Wakefield Turntables
22-04-2018, 20:18
I've tried Eichmann silver bullets, KLE silver jobbies and WBT. There is no difference. Period.
Bigman80
22-04-2018, 20:44
I've tried Eichmann silver bullets, KLE silver jobbies and WBT. There is no difference. Period.
Can't be absolute in fact. Only in opinion.
I’ve tried all three plugs and I think there is a difference - my preference is for the KLE.
337alant
22-04-2018, 22:51
The problem I have with Silver plugs is they are great when clean and new but oxidise turn black so then become inferior to gold which stays bright and clean much longer, doesent matter if its wbt or kle both degrade the same, just saying:)
Alan
337alant
22-04-2018, 22:58
Si has a good point about solder being inferior as a connector and that why its important to makes sure the wire makes good contact with the connecting surface before soldering same goes for through hole components in a circuit board
Alan
walpurgis
22-04-2018, 22:58
The problem I have with Silver plugs is they are great when clean and new but oxidise turn black so then become inferior to gold which stays bright and clean much longer, doesent matter if its wbt or kle both degrade the same, just saying:)
Alan
Silver does not oxidise very much in normal situations. The familiar blackening is actually a sulphide formation.
walpurgis
22-04-2018, 23:02
Si has a good point about solder being inferior as a connector and that why its important to makes sure the wire makes good contact with the connecting surface before soldering same goes for through hole components in a circuit board
Alan
The solder in soldered joints is usually much larger in conductive cross section than the conductors being joined, so there is no compromise of conductivity.
337alant
22-04-2018, 23:46
The solder in soldered joints is usually much larger in conductive cross section than the conductors being joined, so there is no compromise of conductivity.
Silver does not oxidise very much in normal situations. The familiar blackening is actually a sulphide formation.
Geoff
In my experience I can only agree to disagree with both of your comments
Alan
The problem I have with Silver plugs is they are great when clean and new but oxidise turn black so then become inferior to gold which stays bright and clean much longer, doesent matter if its wbt or kle both degrade the same, just saying:)
Alan
Except silver oxide is still conductive.
If the KLE plugs are “PureSilver” alloy will they oxidise?
Stryder5
23-04-2018, 12:59
If the KLE plugs are “PureSilver” alloy will they oxidise?
Of course
walpurgis
23-04-2018, 13:18
Except silver oxide is still conductive.
Unfortunately the black tarnish is silver sulphide which is not an oxide or conductive.
I have silver plugs on my Chord cables and they have not tarnished in 3 years.
wee tee cee
23-04-2018, 14:30
Im running in a couple of silver cables just now.
One with KLE the other with wtb 0110 ag.
Two different silver cables both soldered with wbt 4% silver solder.
Have maybe 50 hours on one and about 30 on the other.
I reckon the wbt are a wee bit strident at the top end, the kle is warmer.
Both superb cables-better than anything I have tried before.
Im very fortunate Brian was kind enough to make them up for me to his usual high standard.
I reckon they both need more hours on them to give definitive assessment.
Unfortunately the black tarnish is silver sulphide which is not an oxide or conductive.
As you say, the tarnish is a sulphide though my understanding is that it is still semi-conductive.
yup its classed as a semi conductor afaik
wee tee cee
23-04-2018, 17:09
I've tried Eichmann silver bullets, KLE silver jobbies and WBT. There is no difference. Period.
Interesting.....took the silver cables across to another of the troops last week-all discernibly different.
My son runs eichman silver bullet MGs between pre and power and has lent his ears trying the latest contenders between dac/pre.
All have a sonic signature-synergy and burn in are a factor (contentious to some) .
My dalliance into silver wires has been a revelation.
expensive ingredients-but make a fine recipe IMHO!!!
Interesting.....took the silver cables across to another of the troops last week-all discernibly different.
My son runs eichman silver bullet MGs between pre and power and has lent his ears trying the latest contenders between dac/pre.
All have a sonic signature-synergy and burn in are a factor (contentious to some) .
My dalliance into silver wires has been a revelation.
expensive ingredients-but make a fine recipe IMHO!!!
I believe solid silver cables are very detailed and transparent with lots of air but can be a bit lightweight compared to copper? Cables manufactured fro copper with silver are trying to be the best of both worlds but often give too much tizz in the high end leading to sibilance however this is not the case for solid silver cables which are probably the best option you can buy.
Looking at cartridge windings and tone arm leads , silver is king. I have a mixed view regarding IC's as silver can easily impress but loose out on some of the rich meatiness you get with copper. Add to this multiple configurations of shielding and plugs and the sound signatures are endless!
Sounds like you have got a nice combo there Tony. How does it compare to the SPOTFIRE?
Wakefield Turntables
23-04-2018, 18:33
Interesting.....took the silver cables across to another of the troops last week-all discernibly different.
My son runs eichman silver bullet MGs between pre and power and has lent his ears trying the latest contenders between dac/pre.
All have a sonic signature-synergy and burn in are a factor (contentious to some) .
My dalliance into silver wires has been a revelation.
expensive ingredients-but make a fine recipe IMHO!!!
I dont run Copper in my systems. Everything is silver. Cartridges have silver coils, tonearms are all wired in silver, IC's are silver, I've even got pure silver mains cables. I dont think the RCA's as such have a sonic signature. I think its more to do with the composition of the IC's and how you power your system.
wee tee cee
23-04-2018, 18:48
James,
Cost is a factor here....the Spotfire is bang for buck excellent.
Brian harvested all my wbt 0110 ug plugs off my MG cables successfully!
I fancied trying some silver cables and solder.....loads of hassle and research but we came up with two crackin cables(Brian did all the heavy lifting).
Heaven only knows how much commercial cable of equivalency would set you back but were both happy with the results.
The raw materials cost quite a bit more than the Spotfire....comparing apples with pears!!!!
Silver experiments have opened my eyes!!!
wee tee cee
23-04-2018, 19:00
I dont run Copper in my systems. Everything is silver. Cartridges have silver coils, tonearms are all wired in silver, IC's are silver, I've even got pure silver mains cables. I dont think the RCA's as such have a sonic signature. I think its more to do with the composition of the IC's and how you power your system.
Andrew,
Im finding my feet with silver(usb and IC).
plugs IMHO like everything else that flows current makes a difference.
I worked my way up Mark Grants hierarchy over a few years-every step brought a sonic improvement(same basic cable -better plugs).
YMMV.
Wakefield Turntables
23-04-2018, 19:11
Andrew,
Im finding my feet with silver(usb and IC).
plugs IMHO like everything else that flows current makes a difference.
I worked my way up Mark Grants hierarchy over a few years-every step brought a sonic improvement(same basic cable -better plugs).
YMMV.
Weird innit! I've never spent stupid money on cables and always made my own. I remember trying out 2 MCRU "the ultimate" mains cables in my system and they did bugger all, couldn't tell any difference, boy I got fire and brimstone from the owner of the company. I can hear a difference in MY system between silver and copper. I prefer silver. My systems have been built up over the years and I have a very good grasp as to how they sound and I'm sensitive to the sonic changes that these components can bring.
Bigman80
23-04-2018, 19:13
The biggest problem is tone. Whilst I've had IC's and Tonearms all wired with pure silver, it just didn't have the tone I was looking for. Cables are like tone control IMO and although the goal is for as little sonic imprint as possible, that can NEVER be achieved. Too many factors. It's incredibly unlikely that Silver is used in every single part of your systems input to speaker chain. Copper will be there, as will gold, lead and whatever else. As you found out Jimbo, usually a mixture of different materials is the best possible outcome.
I have copper in my tonearm, silver from arm to Phonostage, copper from phonostage to pre, copper from pre to power amps, copper from power amps to speakers.
Well done, Brian, seems you're not quite as retired as you'd have us believe [emoji6]
Put me down for a loan when you start selling them.
Wakefield Turntables
23-04-2018, 19:23
The biggest problem is tone.
I've solved your "TONE" problems, have a read of my old mate Jeff....
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/
Read his articles on Duelund. I actually have a little system dedicated to this wire.
brian2957
23-04-2018, 19:32
The biggest problem is tone. Whilst I've had IC's and Tonearms all wired with pure silver, it just didn't have the tone I was looking for. Cables are like tone control IMO and although the goal is for as little sonic imprint as possible, that can NEVER be achieved. Too many factors. It's incredibly unlikely that Silver is used in every single part of your systems input to speaker chain. Copper will be there, as will gold, lead and whatever else. As you found out Jimbo, usually a mixture of different materials is the best possible outcome.
I have copper in my tonearm, silver from arm to Phonostage, copper from phonostage to pre, copper from pre to power amps, copper from power amps to speakers.
Well done, Brian, seems you're not quite as retired as you'd have us believe [emoji6]
Put me down for a loan when you start selling them.
I've been making my own cables since 1992 Oliver , not quite ready to stop yet :)
Bigman80
23-04-2018, 19:34
I've been making my own cables since 1992 Oliver , not quite ready to stop yet :)Good on ya mate, glad you're back. [emoji4]
Bigman80
23-04-2018, 19:36
I've solved your "TONE" problems, have a read of my old mate Jeff....
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/
Read his articles on Duelund. I actually have a little system dedicated to this wire.No lack of tone now mate, I'm very happy with where the sound is at. Which bit of that monsterous thread do you want me to read [emoji50]
I've been making my own cables since 1992 Oliver , not quite ready to stop yet :)
so ive heard. :D
Interestingly enough these plugs will be going on the end of a cable Brian has recommended.
I am going to try the one he recommends and something a bit more expensive for the pre to power connection.
Bigman80
23-04-2018, 20:59
Interestingly enough these plugs will be going on the end of a cable Brian has recommended.
I am going to try the one he recommends and something a bit more expensive for the pre to power connection.Are you going for the WBT Kevin?
Wakefield Turntables
23-04-2018, 21:00
Which bit of that monsterous thread do you want me to read [emoji50]
All of it :mad:
Bigman80
23-04-2018, 21:01
All of it :mad:[emoji23]
I'll spend an hour on it later or tomorrow.
As you say, the tarnish is a sulphide though my understanding is that it is still semi-conductive.
Silver sulphide (Ag2S) has a resistivity of ~ 1.5 10-3Ohm.m, whereas silver oxide (Ag2O) is colourless and is an insulator, having a resistivity of ~ 10+9Ohm.m. Pure silver itself has resistivity of 1.6 10-8Ohm.m.
Both the oxide and the sulphide are soft, so are easily 'cut through' by the wiping action of mating and de-mating the contacts.
I couldn't find a difference but if anything I prefer the simpler klei / eichmann over the wbt. For once the cheaper ones mentioned perform just as well.
wee tee cee
24-04-2018, 15:32
I've solved your "TONE" problems, have a read of my old mate Jeff....
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/
Read his articles on Duelund. I actually have a little system dedicated to this wire.
Andrew,
I had read all the articles on the Dueland cables-really quite fancied trying the silver foils as hi fi collective have two cable kits with wbt silver plugs.
Brian has experimented with loads of combinations and advised me that in his experience shielded cables come out best....he wasn't wrong on these occasions.
The tinned copper review caught my eye-I rather fancy giving that a go next!!!
Mike Reed
24-04-2018, 16:35
I've been reading this thread with interest, as up to now I've only had (and still have) upper Chord and TQ I/Cs among other lesser cables. However, 2 or 3 years ago I bought a M.G. silver digital I/C for my Lector Valved CDP, and I was and am very happy. This has got me interested in buying silver analogue I/Cs with, I think, WBT Ag RCAs. Bit of a punt but I'm not really a gambler !:)
Not cheap, but nor were my other cables. I do wonder what differences I will encounter using these instead of my others. CDP is currently Chord Sig. to valved pre. Pre. to valved power mono's is currently Chord Indigo. TQ Black Diamond is from pre. to headphone amp. These are the interconnects I wish to supplant with a solid silver I/C, but I've no idea whether I'm going to be pleasantly surprised or disappointed.
Any tonal observations out there? Dunno what TQ use, but Chords are def. copper. Would appreciate any comment, however subjective, though there might be a tonal 'trend' with silver I/Cs as opposed to copper.
337alant
24-04-2018, 18:25
Some bedtime reading :D
http://www.te.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/Performance_implications_Silver_Myers2009.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnish
Alan
wee tee cee
25-04-2018, 15:08
I've been reading this thread with interest, as up to now I've only had (and still have) upper Chord and TQ I/Cs among other lesser cables. However, 2 or 3 years ago I bought a M.G. silver digital I/C for my Lector Valved CDP, and I was and am very happy. This has got me interested in buying silver analogue I/Cs with, I think, WBT Ag RCAs. Bit of a punt but I'm not really a gambler !:)
Not cheap, but nor were my other cables. I do wonder what differences I will encounter using these instead of my others. CDP is currently Chord Sig. to valved pre. Pre. to valved power mono's is currently Chord Indigo. TQ Black Diamond is from pre. to headphone amp. These are the interconnects I wish to supplant with a solid silver I/C, but I've no idea whether I'm going to be pleasantly surprised or disappointed.
Any tonal observations out there? Dunno what TQ use, but Chords are def. copper. Would appreciate any comment, however subjective, though there might be a tonal 'trend' with silver I/Cs as opposed to copper.
Subjectively silver has really brought more to the party for me.
I just wanted to try silver plugs/solder/wire to make my own mind up.
detail retrieval/imaging/sounstage all better than i have tried so far.
Brian who built them made one for himself-same conclusion....rather special/but not cheap components.
I have been reading up a bit more about the plugs.
It seems like the original marketing was misleading if you belive this info:
https://www.aurealisaudio.com.au/klei-harmony-rca-issues/
There is now no mention of them being pure Silver on the KLEI webpage, although retailers are still saying they are. - https://kleinnovations.com/kle-innovations-klei-products/klei-harmony-plug/klei-pure-harmony-phonorca-plug/
Wakefield Turntables
28-04-2018, 16:51
Andrew,
I had read all the articles on the Dueland cables-really quite fancied trying the silver foils as hi fi collective have two cable kits with wbt silver plugs.
Brian has experimented with loads of combinations and advised me that in his experience shielded cables come out best....he wasn't wrong on these occasions.
The tinned copper review caught my eye-I rather fancy giving that a go next!!!
Tony, missed this one, sorry! I re-wired some Celestion Ditton 15's, I have the Dunelund IC's (Thanks again Brian), and also some speaker cable. It definitely has a "sound", I don't know you'd call it "Tone" but I like what I hear and occasionally I fire up the "Dunelund Tone" system and have a relaxing session. In fact that's how I'd describe the sound, relaxing.
Bigman80
28-04-2018, 18:38
I have been reading up a bit more about the plugs.
It seems like the original marketing was misleading if you belive this info:
https://www.aurealisaudio.com.au/klei-harmony-rca-issues/
There is now no mention of them being pure Silver on the KLEI webpage, although retailers are still saying they are. - https://kleinnovations.com/kle-innovations-klei-products/klei-harmony-plug/klei-pure-harmony-phonorca-plug/Well, that's a turn up.
Really pleased I wanted silver plated copper. I'd have bee furious had I thought I was buying pure silver.. look like for pure silver, the WBT are a must now.
Or the Aeco ARP-4055.
I don’t like the WBT prices. :eek:
wee tee cee
29-04-2018, 13:20
Or the Aeco ARP-4055.
I don’t like the WBT prices. :eek:
Yup a bit salty but they do sound different to the kle/eichman silver bullets/ms audio.
Im lucky Brian could harvest them off my old cables.
Difficult to work with without the wbt tool apparently.
wee tee cee
29-04-2018, 13:24
Tony, missed this one, sorry! I re-wired some Celestion Ditton 15's, I have the Dunelund IC's (Thanks again Brian), and also some speaker cable. It definitely has a "sound", I don't know you'd call it "Tone" but I like what I hear and occasionally I fire up the "Dunelund Tone" system and have a relaxing session. In fact that's how I'd describe the sound, relaxing.
Thanks for that Andrew,
I quite fancy trying the tinned copper-just to satisfy my curiosity.
I reckon tubes and 57s would work well with this combo-time will tell.
Bigman80
29-04-2018, 13:32
Or the Aeco ARP-4055.
I don’t like the WBT prices. :eek:Yes, the AECO stuff is excellent.
The Aeco plugs have arrived. They look nice, but I think they would be better with two strain relief screws and a plastic body.
I am just waiting for my cable to arrive now.
Bigman80
01-05-2018, 08:59
The Aeco plugs have arrived. They look nice, but I think they would be better with two strain relief screws and a plastic body.
I am just waiting for my cable to arrive now.The reducer ring is pretty effective if you can use it, if not, build up the thickness with heatshrink and then put some clear stuff over the plug and cable. It works really well.
The new cable is now made up.
I should have checked the specs properly as it was a pain getting the new big fat cable to fit inside the 10.5mm diameter plug!
Bigman80
04-05-2018, 17:24
Wow, sounds chunky!
The new cable is now made up.
I should have checked the specs properly as it was a pain getting the new big fat cable to fit inside the 10.5mm diameter plug!
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