View Full Version : Speakers for my OTL valve amps......?
Hi
Well, having said my hellos in the 'stand up so we can have a look at you' forum, I thought it about time for my first proper post on AoS.
Here it is.
I'm a recent convert to the joys of tube amps - that's not to say I'm new to valves, just new to valve amps that don't self destruct within days of me acquiring them. But that's another story...
My OTL monoblocks are rather nice - and they haven't blown up yet, which makes me even fonder of them. I do find that a tendency not to catch fire or spontaneously go phutt is quite an attractive quality in an amplifier :)
OTLs are strange beasts though. Unlike 'normal' amps, they put less watts into lower impedances than they do into higher ones. This makes speaker matching a particularly interesting prospect. If anyone knows of a 16 ohm, 94dB speaker, please let me know - I could blow the windows out, I reckon!
There appear to be two issues here. My current speakers are Ruark Accolades. They are not a difficult load by most standards (8 ohm, 90 dB), but they are not an ideal match. The OTLs are rated at 40 wpc (whether this is into 8 or 16 ohms, I have no idea - the amps bear labels advising the use of speakers of 8-16 ohm impedance). Part of the problem lies with the rather low input sensitivity of the amps - all the preamps I have tried thus far require the welly knob right up near the end of the range to get healthy volume. Interestingly, the exception to this was the EE Minimax, which seems to have great gobs of gain by comparison. I can live with having to turn the wick up though - at least for the time being.
It is also possible that the Ruarks have an impedance dip somewhere that pushes the OTLs a bit hard, as I do get distortion at certain frequencies (female vocals of the operatic variety can be a particularly painful experience, for example). OTOH, with some other music, I can play at quite high levels without any problem. Weird.
For the record, tests with other kit suggest that the speakers and amps are all in good working order.
The preamp problem will most likely end up being solved by a Minimax as and when the readies become available.
In the meantime, having decided to keep the amps and part with the Ruarks, I could do with some speaker recommendations. Budget will be around £600, used or new (most likely the former). Nothing fugly, as SWMBO still hasn't forgiven me for the teak Linn Isobariks :rolleyes:
Castle Howards might fit the bill (if the reviews are accurate) as they seem to have an impedance curve that stays well above 8 ohms for most of the range. They look good too.
What else should I consider?
Looking forward to your suggestions.
Cheers
Martin
You know, old Tannoys would be PERFECT with OTL's as IIRC they were average 11 Ohms, as were many speakers from the late sixties.
I used the hideously inefficient ATC 20 passives with my short-lived (literally) Croft OTL and up to a reasonable volume they were fine..
Harbeth Compact 7's should be considered as they are deliberately designed to have an easy load and possibly the sweet toned vintage Spendors too for similar reasons. BC1/SP1's are mostly over 9 Ohms but dip at HF where there's less energy..
Avoid flashy three-ways and modern column squeakers with twin bass units. The simpler the load the better, as you obviously seem to know ;)
Ali Tait
19-03-2010, 17:35
A full-range single driver speaker would be perfect for your amps,you won't get Lowthers for that money,but something with a Fostex driver could be DIY'd quite easily,or I know someone who could make you some.I have a pair with some Fostex fe167e drivers-94dB at 8 ohms.Ideal for your needs.
Martin I have a pair of Jericho Horns F/Sale they are 97db and use Fostex ff225k not looking for lots I need the space.
I live in Blyth Northumberland
Martin I have a pair of Jericho Horns F/Sale they are 97db and use Fostex ff225k not looking for lots I need the space.
I live in Blyth Northumberland
You're just down the road from me then.
I'll pm you in a minute.
Cheers
Martin
Martin I have a pair of Jericho Horns F/Sale they are 97db and use Fostex ff225k not looking for lots I need the space.
I live in Blyth Northumberland
Forgot to say: re your avatar - nice to see some good taste up here in the NE wastelands!
:)
Martin
Ali Tait
19-03-2010, 19:47
Martin,I've heard those Jerichos several times,they are rather nice,and ideal for your amps.
aquapiranha
19-03-2010, 19:58
Hi. I would also second the opinion on Fostex drivers having tried a couple myself - a very small set of RLH's with FE103's, and the, ahem, rather larger Sachiko's with FE206E's. The difference in scale was obviously apparent between the two, but both had fantastic presence.
I am currently still using FR's visaton B200's in fact run active mode with 4 eminence alpha's covering the bass.
Open baffle is another way to go if you like that kind of sound.
:)
aquapiranha
19-03-2010, 20:00
Martin I have a pair of Jericho Horns F/Sale they are 97db and use Fostex ff225k not looking for lots I need the space.
I live in Blyth Northumberland
Hi Martin, did you have an ad in the classifieds?
Steve
Hi Martin, did you have an ad in the classifieds?
Steve
Hi Steve
No, not yet at least.
Cheers
Martin
Thanks everyone - some really good suggestions there.
Will's horns are looking very tempting, though I've no idea how their appearance will go down with the Domestic Authorities.
Also worth saying that I very very limited wxperience of horns, so this will be an interesting journey.
Cheers
Martin
I can't wait for your listening impressions. :)
I can't wait for your listening impressions. :)
Will has very kindly invited me over for a listen, so I will certainly let you know how it goes.
Not sure how SWMBO would react to a pair of horns, but hey, they can't look worse than teak isobariks....
Thanks to all for your advice. I think I'm going to like it here :)
Martin
jandl100
20-03-2010, 08:54
:worthless:
Well, OK, not exactly worthless. But pics are always nice. :)
Here's Martin's OTLs driving some SD Acoustics SD1 speakers - which they did amazingly well when I had them - no sonic constraints at all. In fact there's a pair of SD1 on eBay last time I looked. Super speakers! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SD-ACOUSTICS-SD1-SPEAKERS-RIBBONS_W0QQitemZ110508550697QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK _AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers? hash=item19bad2aa29
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/SD1OTL.jpg
Here's the eBay pair with covers on - kinda cool!
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/SD1eBaypair.jpg
So how d'ya fancy a trip down to Devon (?) with the amps to try 'em out? :eek:
Worth bearing in mind, though, that the amps have had work done on them since I owned them, so they may not be quite the same.
:worthless:
Well, OK, not exactly worthless. But pics are always nice. :)
Here's Martin's OTLs driving some SD Acoustics SD1 speakers - which they did amazingly well when I had them - no sonic constraints at all. In fact there's a pair of SD1 on eBay last time I looked. Super speakers! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SD-ACOUSTICS-SD1-SPEAKERS-RIBBONS_W0QQitemZ110508550697QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK _AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers? hash=item19bad2aa29
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/SD1OTL.jpg
Here's the eBay pair with covers on - kinda cool!
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/SD1eBaypair.jpg
So how d'ya fancy a trip down to Devon (?) with the amps to try 'em out? :eek:
Worth bearing in mind, though, that the amps have had work done on them since I owned them, so they may not be quite the same.
Hello Jerry - didn't know you posted on here (though I should have guessed ;)).
Would love to come down to Devon for a listen, but it's a bit far - swmbo would insist I bring at least two of the kids with me :rolleyes:.
Those SD1 look interesting, but not much chance of getting them past the Domestic Authorities I suspect....
There's definitely nowt wrong with the amps - just not a good match for the Ruarks.
Cheers
Martin
Well, today I visited Will and heard his Jericho horns with my amps.
Holy F***!
They are in the back of my car right now!
I think Will has the best system I have ever heard - and he built it all himself.
SRV playing Little Wing sounded soooooo good.
Thanks Will!
Cheers
Martin
(a very happy man).
jandl100
23-03-2010, 07:40
RESULT!
Start a review in the Strokes of Genius section. :)
We want photos!!!!! :eek:
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 08:57
I thought you might like them! Perfect load for an OTL.
Nice one Will is really good with DIY
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 09:10
He certainly is.Those OB's of his are superb.Shows even 60+ years ago,they knew how to design drivers.The field coils he has are amazing.
Nice one Will is really good with DIY
Oh yes!
I came away from his house absolutely committed to building my own gear.
I'm not going to let a little thing like total lack of any kind of knowledge of electronics get in my way!
I was particularly impressed with Will's DIY tonearm - made out of an ebony knitting needle and a few other bits (which cost about £30 in total, according to Will). I honestly don't see any need to spend more - a fabulous arm! I might have a go at making one myself (assuming it would fit a Michell Orbe...).
Anyway, respect to Will - I could probably have listened to his tales of obscure (but fine sounding) vintage valves for quite a while longer.
I'll let you all know how I get on with the horns. I'm ordering some Fostex horn tweeters soon (Will explained that the horns are basically a two way design). At the moment I'm still waiting for some help to get them out of the car. They are solid.....
And yes, there will be pictures soon.
:):):):):)
Cheers
Martin
Forgot to say:
The most important thing I picked up at Will's is this:
All you need is three good watts of proper valve power and some well-built high sensitivity speakers.
Nothing else comes close.
No more transistors for me - ever.
Quite a revelation.
;)
Martin
Forgot to say:
The most important thing I picked up at Will's is this:
All you need is three good watts of proper valve power and some well-built high sensitivity speakers.
Nothing else comes close.
No more transistors for me - ever.
Quite a revelation.
;)
Martin
thats spot on... trouble is no one believes that until they hear what hi eff and simple valves amps can do...
another on the slipery slope...
cheers steve
Hi Martin,
All you need is three good watts of proper valve power and some well-built high sensitivity speakers.
Nothing else comes close.
30W of quality pure Class A P/P through huge 95db efficient Tannoy dual-concentics is, erm, 'none too shabby' either! ;)
But yes, Will (and Steve S) are right - listen to them and you won't go far wrong, as undoubtedly these two chaps know what they're talking about when it comes to achieving great sound from a hi-fi system, without the need for spending a fortune :cool:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
23-03-2010, 12:34
RESULT!
Start a review in the Strokes of Genius section. :)
We want photos!!!!! :eek:
+1 Yes please write a review for SOG, with nice photos too please.
Regards D S D L
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 13:50
...and another valve addict is born!
Hi Martin,
30W of quality pure Class A P/P through huge 95db efficient Tannoy dual-concentics is, erm, 'none too shabby' either! ;)
But yes, Will (and Steve S) are right - listen to them and you won't go far wrong, as undoubtedly these two chaps know what they're talking about when it comes to achieving great sound from a hi-fi system, without the need for spending a fortune :cool:
Marco.
If you'd said that to me yesterday, I would no doubt have shrugged and said 'Yes, I'm sure you're right about yer Class A etc etc'....
...but now I am a valve and horn convert, so I must condemn your vile transistors as the work of the devil and wave my private parts in the general direction of your funny speakers. EDIT - Ah, it's a Class a tube amp. Well that's alright then, obviously :).
Now if you'll excuse me, there's work to do - I have a beard to grow, a pipe to smoke and some nutty real ale to slurp.
Give it a few years and I will no doubt be thrilling you all with the tale of the time I tracked down the last known batch of <<<insert name of insanely rare, obscure and expensive valves here>>>to a long abandoned secret military installation in Siberia.
This slope is even more slippery than I imagined.
;)
Martin
(feeling very horny).
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 14:55
He doesn't use transistors in his amp,it's a KT88 push pull valve amp.
+1 Yes please write a review for SOG, with nice photos too please.
Regards D S D L
I'll do that - but I need to persuade swmbo to help me get the horns out of the car first :rolleyes:
Martin
He doesn't use transistors in his amp,it's a KT88 push pull valve amp.
Ahem.
In that case, as you were - top man, great taste, one of us etc.
Sorry - I let my new found enthusiasm spill over into fanaticism for a moment there.
:)
Martin
If you'd said that to me yesterday, I would no doubt have shrugged and said 'Yes, I'm sure you're right about yer Class A etc etc'....
...but now I am a valve and horn convert, so I must condemn your vile transistors as the work of the devil and wave my private parts in the general direction of your funny speakers.
Lol! Martin, I was talking about Class A VALVE AMPS, which is what I use! :doh: :lol:
Although I was referring to the push-pull (P/P) option (with high-efficiency Tannoy dual-concentrics using horn-loaded tweeters), rather than the single-ended route with 'full-blown horns' you had demonstrated to you by Will.
Here's the wee beastie I use:
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3829/copperamp015.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/copperamp015.jpg/)
And a very similar version of Steve Toy's 'in action' at the recent Scalford Hall show with my Tannoy Lockwoods:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2563/scalfordhall2010.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/scalfordhall2010.jpg/)
So it's not only the low-wattage SE valve route with horns that's valid in terms of achieving audio nirvana, my dear! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Lol! Martin, I was talking about Class A VALVE AMPS, which is what I use! :doh: :lol:
Although I was referring to the push-pull (P/P) option (with high-efficiency Tannoy dual-concentrics featuring horn-loaded tweeters), rather than the single-ended route with 'full-blown horns' you had demonstrated to you by Will.
Here's the wee beastie I use:
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3829/copperamp015.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/copperamp015.jpg/)
And a very similar version of Steve Toy's 'in action' at the recent Scalford Hall show with my Tannoy Lockwoods:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2563/scalfordhall2010.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/scalfordhall2010.jpg/)
So it's not only the low-wattage SE valve route with horns that's valid, my dear! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Very nice!
At least, I'm sure that if my work computer wasn't blocking all the pictures, I'd be thinking very nice....
If they are tubes, I'll let you off (what with you being forum royalty and all that ;)).
Ironically, my OTLs struggled to drive the Ruarks to the extent that I needed to crank the volume right up on the preamp. Now I have the opposite problem - the OTLs are seriously over-powered for the horns (what use are 20 watts when the first 2 are enough to induce deafness?), so the usable part of the volume control range is disconcertingly tiny.
Clearly, I have much to learn before I get my 'valve expert' badge.
I think this could be fun.
Cheers
Martin
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 15:47
All you need to do now is sell the OTL's and ask Will to build you a proper SE amp with the proceeds!
Very nice!
At least, I'm sure that if my work computer wasn't blocking all the pictures, I'd be thinking very nice....
Lol - you can have a look then when you get home :)
If they are tubes, I'll let you off (what with you being forum royalty and all that ;)).
Oh ignore me, I'm just the daftee who co-owns the site! :eyebrows:
Ironically, my OTLs struggled to drive the Ruarks to the extent that I needed to crank the volume right up on the preamp. Now I have the opposite problem - the OTLs are seriously over-powered for the horns (what use are 20 watts when the first 2 are enough to induce deafness?), so the usable part of the volume control range is disconcertingly tiny.
I'm not sure that Ruarks are the first speakers I'd think of to partner with a valve amp... How did you arrive at that combination?
Also, when you say "the OTLs are seriously over-powered for the horns" - which horns are we talking about? They aren't mentioned in your system listed. In fact, got any pics of your kit? I have no idea what Musician OTLs are like either.
Undoubtedly you've got nice synergy going on there, though. I'd stick with the high-quality SE valve route, as it's a far better one with horns in the equation.
Clearly, I have much to learn before I get my 'valve expert' badge.
I think this could be fun.
Oh trust me it will be!! And we're all learning here all the time. If you'd like to see 'the view from t'other side of the pond', valve amp/speaker-wise, as it were, pop down to Wrexham sometime for a sesh - you'd be more than welcome, Martin :cool:
Marco.
Also, when you say "the OTLs are seriously over-powered for the horns" - which horns are we talking about?
Sorry, I should've read the rest of the thread! :doh:
Alles klar :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
23-03-2010, 16:13
Lol - you can have a look then when you get home :)
Oh ignore me, I'm just the daftee who co-owns the site! :eyebrows:
I'm not sure that Ruarks are the first speakers I'd think of to partner with a valve amp... How did you arrive at that combination?
Also, when you say "the OTLs are seriously over-powered for the horns" - which horns are we talking about? They aren't mentioned in your system listed. In fact, got any pics of your kit? I have no idea what Musician OTLs are like either.
Undoubtedly you've got nice synergy going on there, though. I'd stick with the high-quality SE valve route, as it's a far better one with horns in the equation.
Oh trust me it will be!! And we're all learning here all the time. If you'd like to 'see the view from t'other side of the pond', valve amp/speaker-wise, as it were, pop down to Wrexham sometime for a sesh - you'd be more than welcome, Martin :cool:
Marco.
Ruark Prologues, Epilogues, Talisman and Equinoxs all work very well with 25 watt+ valve amplifiers....not 2 - 5 watts, though in very small rooms with simple music they might be fine, I have not tried amplifiers like that with them, so I am guessing. However Audio Innovations, Tube Technology,Consonance, Pure Sound, Icon Audio, Unison Research all work well.....as I have tried them.
Regards D S D L
I'm not sure that Ruarks are the first speakers I'd think of to partner with a valve amp... How did you arrive at that combination?
LOL - ironically, by auditioning them together. They sounded terrific at the time....
Also, when you say "the OTLs are seriously over-powered for the horns" - which horns are we talking about? They aren't mentioned in your system listed. In fact, got any pics of your kit? I have no idea what Musician OTLs are like either.
I mean Will's Jericho horns (which I bought from him last night). I'll update my system list as soon as I have brought them in from the car ;). I'll do the pictures thing soon, I promise. Might need to do some tidying and dusting first :(.
Undoubtedly you've got nice synergy going on there, though. I'd stick with the high-quality SE valve route, as it's a far better one with horns in the equation.
If Will's amps are any indication, you are definitely right! Nothing too much wrong with my OTLs though (especially considering how stupidly cheap they were). I'll live with them for a while and explore the world of flea powered valve amps, before changing. I'll need to save some pennies too...
Oh trust me it will be!! And we're all learning here all the time. If you'd like to 'see the view from t'other side of the pond', valve amp/speaker-wise, as it were, pop down to Wrexham sometime for a sesh - you'd be more than welcome, Martin :cool:
Very kind of you to invite me - you are equally welcome to drop in if you are ever up in NE England.
Marco.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, Neil - I just thought possible crossover impedance dips might suck the life out of them, despite them being otherwise 'valve-friendly'. It would perhaps explain why Martin had to crank the volume to get decent listening levels.
I've heard a pair of 92db Naim DBLs sound truly awful with my copper amp - sometimes there's more to matching valve amps properly with speakers than meets the eye :)
Marco.
Fair enough, Neil - I just thought possible crossover impedance dips might suck the life out of them, despite them being otherwise 'valve-friendly'. It would perhaps explain why Martin had to crank the volume to get decent listening levels.
You are both right, I suspect. My feeling is that the Accolades probably are a good match to a reasonably powerful valve amp, but I do think they have an impedance dip or two that proved just a bit too much for my OTLs - it was fine with most material, but became a struggle at times. Lovely speakers, to be sure, but I have horns now.....
I've heard a pair of 92db Naim DBLs sound truly awful with my copper amp - sometimes there's more to matching valve amps properly with speakers than meets the eye :)
Marco.
Cheers
Martin
I'd have said that in terms of audible colouration and distortion, the OTL route is the best way to go as long as it (the OTL amp) isn't struggling too hard. It may just be that the horn colourations (oh yes indeedy) are masking the horrendous things an SET amp is doing, like removing deep bass and high treble as well as severe midrange distortion that may make it sound more "impressive." Every SET I've heard though has been in a truly dire sounding system....
I'd have said that in terms of audible colouration and distortion, the OTL route is the best way to go as long as it (the OTL amp) isn't struggling too hard. It may just be that the horn colourations (oh yes indeedy) are masking the horrendous things an SET amp is doing, like removing deep bass and high treble as well as severe midrange distortion that may make it sound more "impressive." Every SET I've heard though has been in a truly dire sounding system....
I suppose it's all down to personal preference. For me, this hobby is about accepting the inevitability of compromise then choosing the set of compromises you can most easily live with.
In other words, it's more about illusion than truth and the brain is a strange and complicated thing.
Then again, ask me again tomorrow and I'll say summat else.
:)
Martin
Just hear some BIG pro monitors by ATC, PMC, Tannoy or the better huge US ones driven by a zillion CLEAN Watts per channel. You'll re-think it all completely I guarantee..
I once had a system where the simile to real instruments (decently recorded) was such that I didn't need to compare. Illusion isn't enough if "High Fidelity" is the goal, but I agree that you need to suspend disbelief and if SET and horns are your "thing" now, then so be it.. Just visit a few good pubs with a small live jazz group playing every so often for a reality check...
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 18:43
I'd have said that in terms of audible colouration and distortion, the OTL route is the best way to go as long as it (the OTL amp) isn't struggling too hard. It may just be that the horn colourations (oh yes indeedy) are masking the horrendous things an SET amp is doing, like removing deep bass and high treble as well as severe midrange distortion that may make it sound more "impressive." Every SET I've heard though has been in a truly dire sounding system....
Removing deep bass and high treble?? Severe midrange distortion???? What SET amps have you been listening to? Good SET amps excel at these things (With the right speakers)
It is true IMO that a lot of commercial SET amps are pretty poor,but the cost-no-object diy efforts I've heard would change your mind.Didn't you read what Martin said after visiting Will? You need to come to one of the Owston do's,you would hear what SET's are really capable of!
As for your high-power monitors driven by zillion watt amps,I'll pass thanks.
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 18:46
Just hear some BIG pro monitors by ATC, PMC, Tannoy or the better huge US ones driven by a zillion CLEAN Watts per channel. You'll re-think it all completely I guarantee..
I once had a system where the simile to real instruments (decently recorded) was such that I didn't need to compare. Illusion isn't enough if "High Fidelity" is the goal, but I agree that you need to suspend disbelief and if SET and horns are your "thing" now, then so be it.. Just visit a few good pubs with a small live jazz group playing every so often for a reality check...
Again,I have no idea what SET's you've listened to,but if you need to go to pubs to listen to live jazz groups to get a reality check,then you've been listening to the wrong ones! It's this very type of thing that a good SET is unsurpassed at.
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 18:49
Martin,if you like the OTL sound,consider one of these-
http://www.transcendentsound.com/singleended.htm
Single-ended and OTL all rolled into one!
Just hear some BIG pro monitors by ATC, PMC, Tannoy or the better huge US ones driven by a zillion CLEAN Watts per channel. You'll re-think it all completely I guarantee..
I once had a system where the simile to real instruments (decently recorded) was such that I didn't need to compare. Illusion isn't enough if "High Fidelity" is the goal, but I agree that you need to suspend disbelief and if SET and horns are your "thing" now, then so be it.. Just visit a few good pubs with a small live jazz group playing every so often for a reality check...
Cheeer up Martin:lol: hold on think about the beer money saved now you dont have to frequent the Longfram Jazz Club.:cool:
.
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 19:14
Yeah,and just think much money you'll save going the DIY route,and end up with a better system.
Spectral Morn
23-03-2010, 19:30
Fair enough, Neil - I just thought possible crossover impedance dips might suck the life out of them, despite them being otherwise 'valve-friendly'. It would perhaps explain why Martin had to crank the volume to get decent listening levels.
I've heard a pair of 92db Naim DBLs sound truly awful with my copper amp - sometimes there's more to matching valve amps properly with speakers than meets the eye :)
Marco.
The ones I mention are all two driver models and not the bigger more complicated multi driver Ruarks. I agree those would be a challenge. I have never heard one of those bigger Ruarks..oh well some day.
I had great fum with my Equinoxs with many valve amplifiers over the years and its the reason I kept them as my Anthony Gallo's are not very valve friendly, unless the amplifier in question is 50 watts or more (my BAT is 75 and the Music Reference is 100), though an 845 single ended 35 watter sounded fantastic once.
Regards D S D L
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 19:37
The thing with OTL's is that the impedance of the speaker has a large effect on it,so a speaker can be very sensitive,but if it is a difficult load,the OTL won't like it.
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 19:37
The thing with OTL's is that the impedance of the speaker has a large effect on it,so a speaker can be very sensitive,but if it is a difficult load,the OTL won't like it.
Spectral Morn
23-03-2010, 19:48
The thing with OTL's is that the impedance of the speaker has a large effect on it,so a speaker can be very sensitive,but if it is a difficult load,the OTL won't like it.
I know.
I tried a set of Atmosphere OTLs on the end of my Ruark Equinoxs they worked brilliantly, but the amplifiers produced way to much heat for me to have considered keeping them. They are also huge in terms of length.
Regards D S D L
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 20:06
Hi Neil,sorry,that post was really directed at Martin.
The thing with OTL's is that the impedance of the speaker has a large effect on it,so a speaker can be very sensitive,but if it is a difficult load,the OTL won't like it.
I agree - that is my experience too.
I read somewhere that OTLs are probably the most difficult amps to match with speakers. Certainly, the difference between the Ruarks and the Jericho horns is such that I am now listening to new amps as far as I am concerned.
Anyway, the horns are now in the house - just need to wait for the Fostex tweeters to arrive and I am in business.
:)
Martin
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 20:22
Great stuff.How's the WAF factor??
Yeah,and just think much money you'll save going the DIY route,and end up with a better system.
I would really love to give DIY a go, but don't think I have the necessary skills yet - I can make a reasonable solder joint and follow instructions, but most of the symbols on a circuit diagram look alike to me....
Anyway, everyone has to start somewhere - I could do with a decent valve preamp and phono stage. Are the WAD kits a good place to start or should I set my sights a little lower (being the beginner that I am)?
Cheers
Martin
Great stuff.How's the WAF factor??
Astonishingly, they have not raised a peep.
Result!
If they end up sounding good close to the wall, that will be a major plus too!
If they turn out to be long term keepers (which looks possible) i could always treat them to a nice veneer job, though Will's painted woodgrain is very convincing.
Martin
Spectral Morn
23-03-2010, 20:30
Hi Neil,sorry,that post was really directed at Martin.
Hi Ali
With no quote I thought it was me....no problem though.
Regards D S D L
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 20:37
I would really love to give DIY a go, but don't think I have the necessary skills yet - I can make a reasonable solder joint and follow instructions, but most of the symbols on a circuit diagram look alike to me....
Anyway, everyone has to start somewhere - I could do with a decent valve preamp and phono stage. Are the WAD kits a good place to start or should I set my sights a little lower (being the beginner that I am)?
Cheers
Martin
Hi Martin,
The WAD stuff is superb.Quite pricey if you go for the full monty-pre,power supply and phono,but it really does punch way way above it's weight.You would get plenty help here or on the WD forum,of you could always ask Will to build them for a few beer tokens.
I've had in the past-WAD 300b pse,300b PP (Original),KEL84 pp,HD83 headphone amp,still have and use a WAD Pre2 and also have on loan from a friend a WAD 5881 PP amp.All are extremely good and perform way above their price tags.Best way into kits and DIY IMO.
Just be aware there are high voltages in these kits,quite capable of killing you,so precautions are necessary!
The WAD stuff is really good and quite a few forums that have plenty of people willing to help
Dave Hewitt
23-03-2010, 20:46
Hi Ali
That rosenblitz thingy looks the biz.Do you think it would drive the H2's
The wad 4 watter seems to cope with them ok.
Dave.
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 21:15
Not sure Dave,how sensitive are they? There was guy on WD who had one,can't remember his name though.I did fancy one myself,if I hadn't gone the static route,I'd probably have bought one.
technobear
23-03-2010, 21:29
Can I just say how refreshing it has been to see that so many people on this forum have proper loudspeakers. I had no idea there were so many here :respect:
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 21:41
Whaddaya call proper speakers then?
technobear
23-03-2010, 22:06
Whaddaya call proper speakers then?
The one's showcased in this thread :lol:
High sensitivity, wideband or fullrange drivers, horns and OBs...
The exact opposite of the fake-sounding, dull, boring "speakerette" crap that most speaker manufacturers want to make.
Contentious? Moi? No.... I'm a good bear http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/saint.gif
Most people, once they hear good 'proper' speakers, never go back to speakerettes.
Removing deep bass and high treble?? Severe midrange distortion???? What SET amps have you been listening to? Good SET amps excel at these things (With the right speakers)
It is true IMO that a lot of commercial SET amps are pretty poor,but the cost-no-object diy efforts I've heard would change your mind.Didn't you read what Martin said after visiting Will? You need to come to one of the Owston do's,you would hear what SET's are really capable of!
As for your high-power monitors driven by zillion watt amps,I'll pass thanks.
It's worth repeating - the sound I heard at Will's was among the most (if not THE most) convincing I have ever encountered. There was deep, controlled bass aplenty and the treble was sweet and extended. The dynamic range that little 3 watt amp produced was frankly jawdropping.
I'll shut up now before I wet myself :)
Martin
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 22:12
Guess I don't qualify with my statics then! I do have a pair of MLTL's with Fostex Fe167e's though..
Dave Hewitt
23-03-2010, 22:16
Hi
The sooner others find out you dont need a PA system in your front room the better .He He .
Dave. Ps Ali I think the h2 are 94 db .
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 22:21
Maybe a bit borderline with 1.5 w I would guess.Suppose it depends how loud you like to listen.You could always get two and bridge them!
Dave Hewitt
23-03-2010, 22:25
Hi Ali
Thats what I thought,seems he does a 15 watt version but the heat output seems a bit much.Ah well back to the Liang and F3.
Dave.
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 22:42
yeah,but the 15w version isn't SE.It does sound very nice though.I heard one at my place years ago.
bonneville
23-03-2010, 22:50
Hi Dave
Sometime down the line I will bring my spuddo's to try with your H2's I think they will surprise you.
Vin.
Dave Hewitt
23-03-2010, 23:10
Hi Vin
Are the spuds 1.5 watters? Sorry Ali its got to be single ended as you know,didnt read the spec properly.
Dave.
Would someone please tell me what "spuds" or "spuddos" are, other than the obvious, and how they got that name... Tar muchly :)
Sometimes you D.I.Y dafties talk in riddles! ;)
Marco.
'What is a spud amp? The usual definition is an amp that uses one tube (valve) per channel. It comes from the phrase "one tuber" which was shortened to "tuber" which is another word for a potato, and so is "spud". Somehow the name stuck.'
Of course it could stand for: Single Pathetically Underpowered Device. :scratch:
Regards
Google 'spud amp'! ;)
Ok, I got this:
I had an email conversation with someone who was interested in a spud amp. What is a spud amp? The usual definition is an amp that uses one tube per channel. It comes from the phrase "one tuber" which was shortened to "tuber" which is another word for a potato, and so is "spud". Somehow the name stuck.
Fair enough, but what I'd like to know now is on what fecking planet is "tuber" another word for 'potato'??? :mental:
The world is going nuts!! :lol:
Marco.
Fair enough, but what I'd like to know now is on what fecking planet is "tuber" another word for 'potato'??? :mental:
...and some fell on stoney ground.... :doh:
Lol - go on then, what's "tuber" got to do with potato? it doesn't explain that!
Marco.
Lol - go on then, what's "tuber" got to do with potato?
Marco.
You are taking the piss, aren't you?... Surely? :stalks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuber
:D
Marco,
Show some intiative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuber !
You can lead a horse to water....
Nope, not at all - enlighten me, massa :)
I have NEVER heard of the word "tuber" relating to a potato!
So next time I'm in Sainsburys, I'll go up to the girl in the veg area and ask her where the tubers are, and I guess she'll know I'm talking about potatoes :lol:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
24-03-2010, 00:30
Marco - a lesson in botany is required.
A tuber is a below ground fruiting body used by some plants to store starch over-winter. We find some of them (like potatoes) good to eat. Others like Jerusalem artichokes make you fart like thunder!
Potatoes are stem tubers, which are the development of enlarged stolons thickened into a storage organ!
Marco,
Show some intiative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuber !
Lol, that's all very well Barry, but it's hardly freakin' obvious is it!
Did you know what a bloody "tuber" was before you found it on Wiki? :eyebrows:
I certainly didn't!
Marco.
Potatoes (http://theartofsound.net/wiki/Potato) are stem tubers, which are the development of enlarged stolons (http://theartofsound.net/wiki/Stolon) thickened into a storage organ (http://theartofsound.net/wiki/Storage_organ)
Sorry, mate - never heard of any of that, but it's nice to learn something new! :cool:
Marco.
Marco - a lesson in botany is required.
A tuber is a below ground fruiting body used by some plants to store starch over-winter. We find some of them (like potatoes) good to eat. Others like Jerusalem artichokes make you fart like thunder!
Marco is Italian. The only form of starch Italians eat is pasta!
Spectral Morn
24-03-2010, 00:37
Lol, that's all very well Barry, but it's hardly freakin' obvious is it!
Did you know what a bloody "tuber" was before you found it on Wiki? :eyebrows:
I certainly didn't!
Marco.
THREAD DRIFT ALERT
YES :ner::):lol::lol::lol::lol:
Regards D S D L
The Grand Wazoo
24-03-2010, 00:38
Marco is Italian. The only form of starch Italians eat is pasta!
Yes, but he comes from a long line of chip-shop tycoons. Tubers are in his DNA!!!
Lol, that's all very well Barry, but it's hardly freakin' obvious is it!
Did you know what a bloody "tuber" was before you found it on Wiki? :eyebrows:
I certainly didn't!
Marco.
Yes I did, but was sufficiently lazy to go to Wiki for the definition. I did know that potatoes, yams and artichokes were examples of tubers.
Cheers
Marco is Italian. The only form of starch Italians eat is pasta!
Err... Gnocchi? ;)
Err... Gnocchi? ;)
OK I'll concede! :doh:
This is Marco's kind of tuber
http://simplyflavors.com/images/tuber_magnatum_pico__600_x_450_.jpg
Yes, and don't forget risotto! ;)
Going back to this tuber malarkey, I bet if you asked 50 people on the street what a 'tuber' was you'd get a blank look from the vast majority of them!
So, sorry, I'm not wearing this nonsense that it's in any way common knowledge :ner: :ner:
Oh, and sorry Chris, I've got about as much interest in botany as I have in buggery!! :lol: :lol:
:flasher:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
24-03-2010, 00:51
Oh, and sorry Chris, I've got about as much interest in botany as I have in buggery
That's fine mate, but don't come crying to me when you've been assaulted from behind with a huge throbbing tuber!
I bet if you asked 50 people on the street what a 'tuber' was you'd get a blank look from the vast majority of them
OK - kill these last few posts & do a members poll - A tenner?
Spectral Morn
24-03-2010, 00:52
Yes, and don't forget risotto! ;)
Going back to this tuber malarkey, I bet if you asked 50 people on the street what a 'tuber' was you'd get a blank look from the vast majority of them!
So, sorry, I'm not wearing this nonsense that it's in any way common knowledge :ner: :ner:
Oh, and sorry Chris, I've got about as much interest in botany as I have in buggery!! :lol: :lol:
:flasher:
Marco.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
So your on "Who wants to be a Millionaire" and its Ask the Audience or phone a friend.... do you
1 Ring Marco (who is already a millionaire :eyebrows:;))and your Phone a Friend buddy....or
2 Ask the Audience.
The question being and its for the Million... "What is a Tuber ?"
:lolsign:
Or wish you had picked Barry or Chris to be your phone buddy.....?
Regards D S D L
OK - kill these last few posts & do a members poll - A tenner?
You'd never get folk to be honest without Googling the answer if they didn't know it! I am honest, you see ;)
Btw, add Polenta to an Italian's list of edible starches :)
Will, yes I love white truffles - especially very thinly sliced on top of my mum's home-made maccheroni con salsiccia di cinghiale, funghi porcini e panna.
Look that up, ya feckers.... :lol:
Yum yum!!
Marco.
Err... Gnocchi? ;)
I am of italian descent and was brought up on home made pasta and pizza.
I can tell you that gnocchi is utterly dreadful stuff. Truly horrid, glue and plaster - I won't touch it. Don't get me started on polenta....
Anyway, what were we talking about again...?
Martin
Hi Martin,
I am of italian descent and was brought up on home made pasta and pizza.
I can tell you that gnocchi is utterly dreadful stuff. Truly horrid, glue and plaster - I won't touch it. Don't get me started on polenta....
Lol - you've obviously not had it made properly then, my friend!
You're now guaranteed a visit to mine where you will feast on gnocchetti al pomodoro con basilico e filetti di peperoni, followed by spiedini di quaglie con polenta e asiago.
Washed down of course with some Brunello di Montalcino and perhaps a dash of Amarone :cool:
If you don't like it there's a chippy down the road! :lolsign:
Marco.
I heard one SPUD amp on a Hawthorne Solo it seemed a bit polite to me but it has many fans on the Hawthorne forum http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/catalogs/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=26 John
Hi Martin,
Lol - you've obviously not had it made properly then, my friend!
You're now guaranteed a visit to mine where you will feast on gnocchetti al pomodoro con basilico e filetti di peperoni, followed by spiedini di quaglie con polenta e asiago.
Washed down of course with some Brunello di Montalcino and perhaps a dash of Amarone :cool:
If you don't like it there's a chippy down the road! :lolsign:
Marco.
You're on!
I'll bring the Barolo.
Cheers
Martin
technobear
24-03-2010, 09:14
You're now guaranteed a visit to mine where you will feast on gnocchetti al pomodoro con basilico e filetti di peperoni, followed by spiedini di quaglie con polenta e asiago.
Mmmmm... can I come too please? http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/dinner.gif
Only on AoS could a thread be derailed for 4 pages to talk about tubers :lol:
'What is a spud amp? The usual definition is an amp that uses one tube (valve) per channel. It comes from the phrase "one tuber" which was shortened to "tuber" which is another word for a potato, and so is "spud". Somehow the name stuck.'
Of course it could stand for: Single Pathetically Underpowered Device. :scratch:
Regards
Pah! More than enough power for 'proper' loudspeakers :ner:
Ali Tait
24-03-2010, 10:48
Hi Vin
Are the spuds 1.5 watters? Sorry Ali its got to be single ended as you know,didnt read the spec properly.
Dave.
Yebbut nobbut otl's don't sound like SE or PP,they sound like OTL's.Did you hear the prototype dirct coupled amp at the 2nd last do,when we went back to Eggborough? That was basically a PP 813 amp,but it didn't sound PP.Mind you,it didn't sound SE either,more like nothing at all really,just a wide open window onto the music.
Yebbut nobbut otl's don't sound like SE or PP,they sound like OTL's.Did you hear the prototype dirct coupled amp at the 2nd last do,when we went back to Eggborough? That was basically a PP 813 amp,but it didn't sound PP.Mind you,it didn't sound SE either,more like nothing at all really,just a wide open window onto the music.
My OTLs aren't the best of the breed, I am sure, but I would agree with your comments - very open sound. Plugging the OTLs into Will's system after hearing his power amp did show up a certain roughness around the edges (I would never have expected them to equal a no-compromise DIY amp), but in truth, I still thought they punched way above their weight and sound better than any of my previous transistor amps.
I'm certainly keen to hear other OTLs.
Cheers
Martin
Gee... I go away for a day or two, and, when I come back, Martin is in love with horns, Marco learns botanics and half of this forum is preparing gnocchetti...
Martin, keep your OTLs !!! :)
Ali Tait
24-03-2010, 18:33
My OTLs aren't the best of the breed, I am sure, but I would agree with your comments - very open sound. Plugging the OTLs into Will's system after hearing his power amp did show up a certain roughness around the edges (I would never have expected them to equal a no-compromise DIY amp), but in truth, I still thought they punched way above their weight and sound better than any of my previous transistor amps.
I'm certainly keen to hear other OTLs.
Cheers
Martin
I had your OTL's for a wee while in a swap with Jerry for my WAD 300b PP.They are pretty good,though wouldn't drive my statics well enough.The Transcendent Sound gear would be a significant upgrade though IMO.
I had your OTL's for a wee while in a swap with Jerry for my WAD 300b PP.They are pretty good,though wouldn't drive my statics well enough.The Transcendent Sound gear would be a significant upgrade though IMO.
Quite coincidently I've just this afternoon got back from returning the Atma-Sphere demo amps to the importer and he had a Transcendent OTL (1.5wpc) which he had been using while I had the S-30. Apparently it does a good job with Zu speakers.
I knew what Tubers were Marco :ner:
Sorry, carry on lads
You're now guaranteed a visit to mine where you will feast on gnocchetti al pomodoro con basilico e filetti di peperoni, followed by spiedini di quaglie con polenta e asiago.
Washed down of course with some Brunello di Montalcino and perhaps a dash of Amarone
Can I come as well? - though if you don't mind I'll give the quail a miss; reminds me of eating bugerigars!
I'll bring some Barolo too.
Regards
Is that the menu you're requesting for dinner on your next visit, sir? If so, I'm sure we can accommodate it ;)
With Martin there too, I think it'll be a rather pleasant bake-off....
Let me know when you're next in the area - perhaps nearer the summer when the weather is good and we can dine al fresco? :cheers:
Marco.
I knew what Tubers were Marco :ner:
Sorry, carry on lads
Jon, you always were a chap of some taste and sophistication! :respect:
Marco.
Jon, you always were a chap of some taste and sophistication! :respect:
Marco.
why thank you sweety;)
Is that the menu you're requesting for dinner on your next visit, sir? If so, I'm sure we can accommodate it ;)
With Martin there too, I think it'll be a rather pleasant bake-off....
Let me know when you're next in the area - perhaps nearer the summer when the weather is good and we can dine al fresco? :cheers:
Marco.
It all sounds very civilised - I'd be very keen to try gnocchi that doesn't stick my teeth together!
I have some Fernet-Branca I could bring. Thus far, everyone else in my life thinks it tastes like cough medicine, but I'm rather partial to it.
I'm not proper Italian - my mother is an Italo Scot from Aberdeen and my father was a Derbyshire lad. My maternal grandparents were both of Italian origin - they did the traditional fish and chip shop / ice cream thing. My grandmother's house always had fresh lasagne and linguine draped over every available surface and the smell of strong coffee filled the house from about five every morning. Ah, the memories....pizza (tomato, a little cheese and some anchovies), pasta, strong coffee, a sly bet on the horses (don't tell yer grandmother...).
I am still trying to perfect my pizza sauce. It's pretty good, but tomatoes are tricky and unpredictable little buggers.
Cheers
Martin
tomatoes are tricky and unpredictable little buggers.
Cut a raw piece and taste it before cooking, this will give you an idea of whether you need sugar/cloves/canella to domesticate them... ;) Also the acidity of oil used makes a difference. ;)
Cut a raw piece and taste it before cooking, this will give you an idea of whether you need sugar/cloves/canella to domesticate them... ;) Also the acidity of oil used makes a difference. ;)
I hadn't thought of the effect the oil might have.
Quality thread-drift in action here.
Marco - do you have a good pizza sauce recipe?
:)
Martin
Just to bring things briefly back on topic:
Finally got the Jerichos set up today. Haven't got the Fostex tweeters yet, so am using the Jerichos as 'full range'.
Initial impressions are very favourable indeed. Even without the tweeters, there is plenty of top end (perhaps lacking a little sparkle, but nothing serious). Bass has a realistic thwack to it and dynamics and presence are top notch. I haven't messed with positioning / isolation yet - just plonked them on the floor and cranked them up.
To put the icing on the cake, swmbo waltzed in just after I'd put the first tune on and said (unprompted!) that she thought the horns sounded 'very natural'. She then went on to say that she didn't mind the way they look either. This is unheard of ;).
I have a fun evening ahead.
Cheers
Martin
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