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walpurgis
19-04-2018, 08:32
I think I may be right in predicting that before too long, CD's will go through a similar revival in interest and 'fashionability' to that experienced by records some years ago, bringing them to their undeniable current popularity.

Some manufacturers are introducing new high spec CD players and transports. Have they spotted a trend? I have a feeling there is the beginnings of one.

CD's are very cheap at the moment. Is this the time to start stocking up?

Fortunately, I have nearly all the CD's I'm likely to want and several decent players and DAC's, so I suppose I'm ahead of the game :).

Phil Bishop
19-04-2018, 09:24
Personally, I doubt there will be a significant CD revival. I could write pages on this but I'll try and keep it brief :)

I don't think anybody really understands all the reasons behind the vinyl revival. However, it has been driven by today's young as well as those who were brought up with it. My belief is the format and tactile nature of vinyl has driven much of the interest and revival. The album artwork, the larger sleeves, the fact you can see something happening when you are listening to the music, the retro aspect, the nostalgia. The fact the format is associated with possibly the heyday of popular music (1960s/1970s).

CD never had that appeal.

After all, there has not been a cassette or 8-track revival.

There is also the fact that all a CDP does is convert a digital code into an analogue signal. Modern devices such as computers and other devices do that just as well - we don't complain about using computers for everything else and the bits not being right.

However, there are, I believe, some CDs that are valuable, original non-barcoded releases, etc. Also, as you say CDs are SO cheap. It is generally better to buy a used CD off Amazon and rip it than buy a lower bit rate download.

All IMHO of course :)

struth
19-04-2018, 09:29
i still think cd will remain a popular choice. its a good medium, and sits nicely between the no physical media streaming and the major investment of vinyl.

walpurgis
19-04-2018, 09:38
There is also the fact that all a CDP does is convert a digital code into an analogue signal. Modern devices such as computers and other devices do that just as well - we don't complain about using computers for everything else and the bits not being right.

However, there are, I believe, some CDs that are valuable, original non-barcoded releases, etc. Also, as you say CDs are SO cheap. It is generally better to buy a used CD off Amazon and rip it than buy a lower bit rate download


As you say, all a CD player does is convert digital to analogue for playback. But there is a certain enjoyable tactility about using a player and discs that streaming does not have. Streaming is about as involving and interesting as turning on a kitchen tap. I like CD's and their players :).

Also, buying second hand CD's is not the minefield that used vinyl tends to be. An old CD will generally play just as well as a new one.

alphaGT
19-04-2018, 09:44
I personally am enjoying the fact that CD’s are selling dirt cheap! I’ve been stocking up on most any title I can think of. Only the really special stuff do I seek out on vinyl anymore.

I never stopped collecting vinyl. During the years that no new vinyl was for sale, except for some specialty labels, I could buy albums for a dollar! At the flea market or local second hand shops. Heck, people gave me their vinyl collections. CD’s came around at $17 each, and after many years dropped down to about $13. And during those times vinyl was just a few bucks. Now, new vinyl is $24 and CD’s are just a few bucks. I suppose once all the old CD’s have found their-self a home, prices on used ones may climb a little?

But as Phil said, newer digital mediums do what CD’s do, only better. CD players will be in demand for the next 30 years, just because of the vast collections of CD’s already out in the world. As advertised, if you take care of them they’ll last forever. 8-tracks didn’t last, once they stopped making them, within two years they were all broken! My old 8 tracks had so many splices in them you could barely tell what you were listening to.

If a person wanted to get into CD’s right now, it would be a very good time! High end players are selling very affordable on the used market, and everything you can think of is available on eBay or other sources of used music. A person could enjoy a CD collection for a fraction of what it cost the first time around.

Russell

Spectral Morn
19-04-2018, 09:57
Personally, I doubt there will be a significant CD revival. I could write pages on this but I'll try and keep it brief :)

I don't think anybody really understands all the reasons behind the vinyl revival. However, it has been driven by today's young as well as those who were brought up with it. My belief is the format and tactile nature of vinyl has driven much of the interest and revival. The album artwork, the larger sleeves, the fact you can see something happening when you are listening to the music, the retro aspect, the nostalgia. The fact the format is associated with possibly the heyday of popular music (1960s/1970s).

CD never had that appeal.

After all, there has not been a cassette or 8-track revival.

There is also the fact that all a CDP does is convert a digital code into an analogue signal. Modern devices such as computers and other devices do that just as well - we don't complain about using computers for everything else and the bits not being right.

However, there are, I believe, some CDs that are valuable, original non-barcoded releases, etc. Also, as you say CDs are SO cheap. It is generally better to buy a used CD off Amazon and rip it than buy a lower bit rate download.

All IMHO of course :)

Actually there has been to a degree, though small, and reel to reel seems to be growing in popularity again with rumours of new machines coming to market.

Macca
19-04-2018, 11:14
I don't think CD will revive in any significant way, it may become like cassette or RTR where there is a tiny niche market that will always be around.

Most people now, and I'm talking about civilians here, are streaming, not buying, in any format, even downloads. You want to listen to something, you click on it, listen then move on. You don't buy it and stick it on a shelf or even on your hard drive anymore. 3 months later you want to listen to it again, you stream it again. This is now the new normal.

Vinyl you've got the artwork, the turntables, and it's desperately anachronistic, and that's its special appeal over streaming. CD is just the worst of both worlds; it does not have the convenience of streaming, it does not have the kerb appeal of vinyl.

No-one cares about floppy discs anymore, there's no nostalgia for them, they were never cool and never will be. I suspect CD will go, or is already going, the same way.

Phil Bishop
19-04-2018, 11:33
Interesting conversation :) Actually, with digital I sit somewhere between CD Players and streaming. I generally buy used CDs as they are SO cheap these days and rip them to iTunes on my Mac, thence via DACs to my systems. However, if I my house burnt down and I had to start from scratch again I'd probably just subscribe to a streaming service such as Apple Music or Spotify Premium.

Cheers

Phil

George47
19-04-2018, 11:48
I think there are the murmurings of a revival. What the vinyl revival showed was people like owning the music rather than have an amorphous computer cloud serve up music.

Maybe paranoia. But what would you do if Tidal, Qobuz or Spotify stopped, you would have no music. Both Tidal and Qobuz have been (are still?) in financial straights and are certainly NOT making money. Never mind if you have the CD (they sound better) as they are your ultimate back-up.

Kylie's new album is on cassette. :doh:

sq225917
19-04-2018, 12:04
No one ever skinned up on a CD case and enjoyed it.

Macca
19-04-2018, 12:09
Interesting conversation :) Actually, with digital I sit somewhere between CD Players and streaming. I generally buy used CDs as they are SO cheap these days and rip them to iTunes on my Mac, thence via DACs to my systems. However, if I my house burnt down and I had to start from scratch again I'd probably just subscribe to a streaming service such as Apple Music or Spotify Premium.

Cheers

Phil

We are old folk now, and we like what we are used to. I find it hard to imagine not owning any music and instead just finding it by searching on a pad and pressing play. It may be more convenient, and there is no reason why it should sound any different to playing a cd, but I don't like it.

But the youngsters find it all very bizarre. They want Kylie, they just search 'Kylie' and pick the song they want to hear. And I'll grant you there are plenty my age and older who are fine with that also. But there are a couple of unintended consequences.

Firstly there is no incentive to sit down and listen to a whole album as a body of work. Just pick your favourite tracks and then move on to something else. That's a shame.

Second, when I was a youth we would go to a mate's house on Friday night to play pool. He was the youngest of nine and his brothers and sisters had long since left home but had left behind their record collections. So this youth had about 600 vinyl albums spanning 1968 through 1982.

As a result we discovered all the old stuff that we would not have been exposed to otherwise, except via the odd single release occasionally played on the radio. And are you ever going to hear, for example, 'Tull's 'Good Morning Weathercock' on the radio? No. No you're not.

So how will today's youth get their musical education just listening to the odd Kylie track? Answer is, of course, that they won't, they will just continue to consume the modern pap because that is all they know. And if young people, in their ignorance, are happily consuming the pap then there is no incentive to produce anything better.

Phil Bishop
19-04-2018, 12:22
I agree Martin but there is hope. The "vinyl revival" has given a new lease of life to independent record shops. I can never walk past a record shop without going in and when browsing I'm often listening to conversations and there are youngsters in there looking through the vinyl and getting really excited about music their parents used to listen to, etc. The best of these record shops have proprietors who actively encourage these youngsters, making recommendations, doing them deals, etc.

A drop in the ocean maybe.......

Barry
19-04-2018, 12:40
We are old folk now, and we like what we are used to. I find it hard to imagine not owning any music and instead just finding it by searching on a pad and pressing play. It may be more convenient, and there is no reason why it should sound any different to playing a cd, but I don't like it.

But the youngsters find it all very bizarre. They want Kylie, they just search 'Kylie' and pick the song they want to hear. And I'll grant you there are plenty my age and older who are fine with that also. But there are a couple of unintended consequences.

Firstly there is no incentive to sit down and listen to a whole album as a body of work. Just pick your favourite tracks and then move on to something else. That's a shame.

Second, when I was a youth we would go to a mate's house on Friday night to play pool. He was the youngest of nine and his brothers and sisters had long since left home but had left behind their record collections. So this youth had about 600 vinyl albums spanning 1968 through 1982.

As a result we discovered all the old stuff that we would not have been exposed to otherwise, except via the odd single release occasionally played on the radio. And are you ever going to hear, for example, 'Tull's 'Good Morning Weathercock' on the radio? No. No you're not.

So how will today's youth get their musical education just listening to the odd Kylie track? Answer is, of course, that they won't, they will just continue to consume the modern pap because that is all they know. And if young people, in their ignorance, are happily consuming the pap then there is no incentive to produce anything better.

My fiancé is of the same generation as me, but unlike me is perfectly au fait with using her smartphone to 'Google' a particular artist(e) for her to listen to. The ironic thing is that the artist(e)s she will search for are those she has heard being played on my system, either in vinyl or CD format. Very occasionally the process will be reversed - I will hear something she is playing on her phone, say "I like that, who is it?", and thence go off to buy the CD.

rigger67
19-04-2018, 12:52
The reason cassettes and 8-tracks haven't enjoyed a revival is convenience : CD and vinyl let you skip to a certain track instantaneously, or as near as damn it, while cassettes took ages and lots of faffing, not to mention the potential chew-up situation.

I don't think CDs will be back in any significant way either, because the convenience of storage with MP3s etc is overwhelming.

The LP is more of a desirable object, a piece of art if you like, that can never be replicated by a CD or cassette.

What I think is the saddest thing is those bleedin' suitcase record players.
I know people who used to work with me in record shops that use them and it drives me nuts.
They post pictures on social media saying "Enjoying the new .. blah blah .. record" and I see that flimsy tone-arm and that overhang from the 12" vinyl .. it beggars belief.

.. and don't get me started on sound-bars :doh:

Macca
19-04-2018, 13:00
I'm less concerned about the crappy equipment. Someone listening to proper music on a Crossly is preferable to someone listening to shite on a £10K Linn.

And before anyone write in to say that what is 'shite' is entirely subjective, I'd argue it isn't. There's music I don't like (The Smiths, for example), but that isn't shit music it is just not to my taste. Shit is completely different and very easy to spot.

rigger67
19-04-2018, 13:20
I'll argue with you :lol:



There's no such thing as shit music.
If someone likes it enough to buy it, it has a certain quality. End of.



I used to say to my staff : if it pays your wages and keeps us in business then keep smiling, no matter what it is they're buying.

How many of those people still work in record shops ?
Virtually none because it's such a tiny business ..

Don't get me started on RSD either. I know it's great to keep raising awareness of the existence of record shops in general, but I wouldn't buy anything that came out especially for it - 99% of it is exploitation IMHO.



Oh, and I love The Smiths.

Morrissey is an utter pillock these days, but he was the funniest lyricist on the planet since Tom Lehrer at one point.

walpurgis
19-04-2018, 13:35
No one ever skinned up on a CD case and enjoyed it.

Can't remember. Might have done. :)

Macca
19-04-2018, 13:36
I'll argue with you :lol:



There's no such thing as shit music.
If someone likes it enough to buy it, it has a certain quality. End of.


So for something to be considered quality it only has to be paid for? I suspect Robert M Pirsig would have had something to say about that line of reasoning...

walpurgis
19-04-2018, 13:42
We are old folk now.

Speak for yourself. I don't feel old. (although there might be a chronological argument to support your point :))

walpurgis
19-04-2018, 13:45
Someone listening to proper music on a Crossly is preferable to someone listening to shite on a £10K Linn

I very much agree with this.

rigger67
19-04-2018, 14:39
So for something to be considered quality it only has to be paid for? I suspect Robert M Pirsig would have had something to say about that line of reasoning...


No, you're missing the point. I said that because it was a historic scenario from when I worked in music retail.

The same could be said of someone today choosing to listen to it on YouTube or streaming it free or indeed just singing a song they like themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I am a massive music snob myself but I never say "That's shit" - I prefer "I don't like it" .. though it is hard sometimes :eyebrows:

Macca
19-04-2018, 14:53
No, you're missing the point. I said that because it was a historic scenario from when I worked in music retail.

The same could be said of someone today choosing to listen to it on YouTube or streaming it free or indeed just singing a song they like themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I am a massive music snob myself but I never say "That's shit" - I prefer "I don't like it" .. though it is hard sometimes :eyebrows:

No, I'm making a distinction between stuff I don't like and the stuff that is worthless to everyone. They are two different things for me.

Like I said, can't stand the Smiths but quite happy to acknowledge their genius, its just not my sort of thing. Same with most Classical. I don't think I'm a music snob, it's just there is a cut-off point where I say 'Wait a minute, this is just shite.' Like when you go to one of those pubs where you can buy a 'steak' for £4.99. You have two mouthfuls and then you say 'This isn't a steak, it's just shite.'

rigger67
19-04-2018, 15:10
... the stuff that is worthless to everyone.

Name something.
I honestly can't see how you can :rolleyes:

Stryder5
19-04-2018, 15:28
I'm less concerned about the crappy equipment. Someone listening to proper music on a Crossly is preferable to someone listening to shite on a £10K Linn.

And before anyone write in to say that what is 'shite' is entirely subjective, I'd argue it isn't. There's music I don't like (The Smiths, for example), but that isn't shit music it is just not to my taste. Shit is completely different and very easy to spot.


I would argue that you can't listen to anything on a Crossly, or whatever suitcase type device, that could be considered music, it's a noise yes.

LP's to some are a fashion item.

Phil Bishop
19-04-2018, 15:28
Not sure about Crosleys but I think there is a place for cheap and cheerful gear - a record can be played very easily, with a pin and a piece of card if that's your wont. Cheap and cheerful gear will play records and make music. It's what we grew up with, many of us. My mate had a Bush system in the 70's which we all listened to. I witnessed a chap in a record shop sell an old stack system he had picked up to a bunch of kids for £10 - it sounded pretty dire to me but it worked and they were ecstatic to have something to play their records on.

FWIW I love The Smiths - the first track on their very first album "Reel Around The Fountain" - sublime lyrics and wonderful sound. Same goes for Morrisey - "Maudlin Street" brings tears to my eyes. A little goes a long way though.

Cheers

Phil

Macca
19-04-2018, 15:32
Name something.
I honestly can't see how you can :rolleyes:

Of course I can but it's bound to offend someone's delicate sensibilities.

You got any albums with 'filler' tracks on them? There you go.

walpurgis
19-04-2018, 15:54
Name something.
I honestly can't see how you can :rolleyes:

Played any Tiny Tim recently? :)

Firebottle
19-04-2018, 16:00
Bought a Blue Oyster Cult album because it had the current hit on it, the rest was shite :doh:

rigger67
19-04-2018, 16:03
Of course I can but it's bound to offend someone's delicate sensibilities.

You got any albums with 'filler' tracks on them? There you go.

One person's filler is another's favourite song.
I love obscure album tracks !
There's a DJ down here who does a request night and it's always fascinating hearing what gets played.

Macca
19-04-2018, 17:09
Bought a Blue Oyster Cult album because it had the current hit on it, the rest was shite :doh:

There's some right crap on BOC albums. That's a good example of what I'm talking about. Music by numbers.

Rothchild
19-04-2018, 17:12
Name something.
I honestly can't see how you can :rolleyes:

Everything that Art Garfunkel did without Paul Simon, I honestly can't see how you can tell me I'm wrong ;-)

Gazjam
19-04-2018, 17:13
Bought a Blue Oyster Cult album because it had the current hit on it, the rest was shite :doh:

And THATS where streaming comes in.
Spotify...hear the album...naa..(or yes)

Blue Oyster Cult...Maybe just needs more Cowbell?

http://dai.ly/x64iyhl

Theadmans
19-04-2018, 17:15
I rip all my CDs to my Hard Drive to play via my Raspberry Pi / Wolfson Audio Card via SqueezePlug.

The Pi feeds via the Wolfson's Co-ax into the Digital input of my Creek 50CD CD Player and Dac.

But I still keep all the CDs in a large cabinet in my listening room. This not only means I can read the booklets whilst playing the Flacs but also that they are to hand (in case of I.T failures etc) to play as CDs in the Creek 50CD.

One of the best things about continuing to buy CDs is that you can choose the "mastering". With so many CDs having had their sound ruined in the Loudness wars since the latest 90s. It is often nice to go back to an 80s or early 90s version. If you subscribe to a streaming service you often just get given the latest compressed mastering.

I don't think CDs will get a Vinyl style Hipster appreciation. However, there will still be folks who appreciate good sound quality and continue to seek out their preferred CD masterings on disc.

Minstrel SE
19-04-2018, 17:19
I agree with Phil Bishop that CD does not have the tactile nature and novelty appeal thats driving the main part of the vinyl revival.

Its interesting the vintage cd players (ie the first generation and shortly afterwards) are being marketed now as having an analogue sound :) yet the vinyl enthusuasts hated them when they first came out.....So someone may be telling porkies :)

So there is a revival of first generation players...thats where the nostalgia revival is going on

I love cd and I will never forget that first feeling of hearing silence where there was supposed to be silence. It may not have been the last word in sound but the dynamics and lack of a noise floor were stunning. There was just something about it that was hard to put a finger on.

I am however gradually beginning to treat them as just things to rip onto computer.

Cds are a large part of my adult life. I will always have a player so I cant really talk in terms of a cd revival

Phil Bishop
19-04-2018, 17:37
Everything that Art Garfunkel did without Paul Simon, I honestly can't see how you can tell me I'm wrong ;-)

Art Garfunkel's "Breakaway" album was key to my wife and myself getting together in the 80's :eyebrows:

OK, it's a bit cheesy but it still remains a firm favourite.

....and what about "Bright Eyes" - surely it brings tears to your eyes too? Those poor little fluffy bunnies :lol:

For my part, I'll nominate the worst excesses of Prog as being unlistenable - I'm talking about just about anything by Yes or ELP - oh dear, now I'm in trouble..... :eek:

Firebottle
19-04-2018, 18:08
Too right you're in trouble. I can't say I'm a big Prog fan but I do have stuff from Yes, Caravan and Rick Wakeman in my collection.
:spank:

Phil Bishop
19-04-2018, 18:29
Too right you're in trouble. I can't say I'm a big Prog fan but I do have stuff from Yes, Caravan and Rick Wakeman in my collection.
:spank:

Don't worry, Caravan's "In The Land Of Grey & Pink" is one of my all time favourite LPs :) Additionally, in the spirit of this thread it sounds best on vinyl to my ears - the CD remasters have never captured the wonderful SQ - Deram pressings always were amazing.

Prog produced some gems such as the aforementioned LP but also some stuff that I find totally unlistenable these days.

Haselsh1
19-04-2018, 19:17
Revival..? I wasn't aware it had gone away.

Rothchild
19-04-2018, 19:29
Art Garfunkel's "Breakaway" album was key to my wife and myself getting together in the 80's :eyebrows:

OK, it's a bit cheesy but it still remains a firm favourite.

....and what about "Bright Eyes" - surely it brings tears to your eyes too? Those poor little fluffy bunnies :lol:

For my part, I'll nominate the worst excesses of Prog as being unlistenable - I'm talking about just about anything by Yes or ELP - oh dear, now I'm in trouble..... :eek:

Aaah, well if it works like that I might try it on the missus one more time ;-)

Barry
19-04-2018, 19:56
So for something to be considered quality it only has to be paid for? I suspect Robert M Pirsig would have had something to say about that line of reasoning...

Didn't the 'jeweller' Robert Ratner have something to say on the matter?

Pharos
19-04-2018, 22:00
Early on in the thread I think attention span was being alluded to.

We have been through an age in which music became involved, PF used tracks as a complete story or depiction, almost a philosophy.

TV now has the shortest busts of edited pictures ever, about 1 to 1.5 secs. presumably psychologists are determining this, and it is done to manipulate and control.

Fast modern life with reduced attention span precludes music requiring commitment.

alphaGT
20-04-2018, 04:32
I remember in my youth, once a week I would go to the record store to spend my hard earned money. I was in the habit of buying one record a week. Two if I couldn’t decide. But how often I walked in not knowing what I would buy?! And how often did I choose an album strictly by the album cover? I recall seeing Black Sabbath Sabotage, with the band dressed in funky clothes, I thought they were the coolest! And bought with no idea what was on the record. And the rest is history, I was forever corrupted that day by, “The Hand of Doom”, it was like I had found what I was looking for!

After CD’s came out, I don’t recall buying by album cover alone anymore. For one thing they were expensive so I wanted to be sure there were at least two songs I liked before I would chance it.

And now with streaming, how does one discover new works? Or old. If we only replay songs we’ve heard on the radio, we are limited in our experience. And if I stream, will they have my old Dixie Dregs? Or that obscure Dicky Betts solo album? These are different times, and young people will never know what it was like for me to walk into that record store once a week with my cash in hand, looking to leave with a record no matter what! I recall far more surprises than disappointments. Sure anyone streaming can just start clicking on random music to see if they like it, but somehow it’s not the same. Perhaps I’m just a square peg in a round hole?

Shite music? Any rap music where the rapper tries his best to not be understood, over a Casio keyboard demo beat. Why buy music that you could make yourself in less than an hour?

Russell

Macca
20-04-2018, 06:49
I remember in my youth, once a week I would go to the record store to spend my hard earned money. I was in the habit of buying one record a week. Two if I couldn’t decide. But how often I walked in not knowing what I would buy?! And how often did I choose an album strictly by the album cover? I recall seeing Black Sabbath Sabotage, with the band dressed in funky clothes, I thought they were the coolest! And bought with no idea what was on the record. And the rest is history, I was forever corrupted that day by, “The Hand of Doom”, it was like I had found what I was looking for!

After CD’s came out, I don’t recall buying by album cover alone anymore. For one thing they were expensive so I wanted to be sure there were at least two songs I liked before I would chance it.


That was me, too. I was gutted when I went into the record shop one day to find the floor with the vinyl was now the floor with the DVDs. That was the end of an era, vinyl revival not withstanding.

Stratmangler
20-04-2018, 08:24
There is also the fact that all a CDP does is convert a digital code into an analogue signal

If only it were that simple....

Stratmangler
20-04-2018, 08:31
This not only means I can read the booklets whilst playing the Flacs

Do you actually do this?

scotty38
20-04-2018, 12:35
Firstly there is no incentive to sit down and listen to a whole album as a body of work. Just pick your favourite tracks and then move on to something else. That's a shame.



This is the thing for me. If I'm streaming it dawns on me at some point that I'm bored, can't decide what to listen to.

I much prefer putting on a record and listening to the whole of it. I can absolutely say I never do that using Spotify....

Theadmans
20-04-2018, 18:07
Do you actually do this?

Yes I do - I am old fashioned like that !

There is something about having the LP or CD sleeve on your lap that keeps me locked into listening to the whole album.

...no sleeve art and I skip tracks on Tidal / Qobuz like an idiot or teenager !

Stratmangler
20-04-2018, 19:02
Yes I do - I am old fashioned like that !

There is something about having the LP or CD sleeve on your lap that keeps me locked into listening to the whole album.

...no sleeve art and I skip tracks on Tidal / Qobuz like an idiot or teenager !

You're the first I've heard of doing that with CD booklets.

I was frustrated with the size of CD booklets from the off - I bought my first CD player in 1986, when the 2nd (possibly 3rd) generation machines came out and didn't cost a fortune (I bought my Philips machine in Laskys for £200.00).
The booklets were difficult enough for me to read back then when I was 24, and with the decline of my visual accommodation things have got worse. My arms aren't long enough to hold the booklet far enough away to permit me to read the damned things when I have my specs on, and when I take my specs off my focus point is almost nose up against the booklet.

Most of my friends have similar thoughts and experiences with CD booklets too.

Whenever I bought an LP record I digested the sleeve notes during the bus journey home, so the cover used to get propped up near the record player, and I concentrated on the music.
I never really got into the habit of reading something while listening to music.

Theadmans
22-04-2018, 18:24
You're the first I've heard of doing that with CD booklets.

I was frustrated with the size of CD booklets from the off - I bought my first CD player in 1986, when the 2nd (possibly 3rd) generation machines came out and didn't cost a fortune (I bought my Philips machine in Laskys for £200.00).
The booklets were difficult enough for me to read back then when I was 24, and with the decline of my visual accommodation things have got worse. My arms aren't long enough to hold the booklet far enough away to permit me to read the damned things when I have my specs on, and when I take my specs off my focus point is almost nose up against the booklet.

Most of my friends have similar thoughts and experiences with CD booklets too.

Whenever I bought an LP record I digested the sleeve notes during the bus journey home, so the cover used to get propped up near the record player, and I concentrated on the music.
I never really got into the habit of reading something while listening to music.

Yes like you I bought my first CD Player via Laskys in 1985 / 86. A Philips CD150.

Remember going into Ainleys Records Leicester having got the player. They had a single 5 foot by 3 foot rack of CDs at the time....

...got all the Kraftwerk CDs on German Import from this rack but there wasn't a whole lot else that interested me back then.

My eyes were 20-20 at the time for the booklets. These days I have to park my specs on my head to read them properly.

alphaGT
25-04-2018, 20:08
I bought my first CD player in about ‘86. Or earlier? It was when no one even knew what they were! I told everyone at work I had bought one, and the most common question I got was, “Does it play movies”, apparently confusing it with the laser disc of the day. It broke after about 3 years, but was still under extended warranty. They couldn’t fix it, so I went in the store and selected another for the same price. The new machines were far and away better than the first ones. I got a Sony that sounded twice as good as the first one, a Sanaui, that I assume was actually made for them by someone else. And lasted many years, it still worked great when I upgraded some years later.

A few of those first CD’s, when they were on a small rack by the cash register, were pretty bad. I bought Heart, Little Queen, and it was nearly unlistenable! The female vocals were so shrill it would curl your toenails! I read somewhere back then, that many labels were in such a rush to get music on CD’s that they took masters for vinyl, which are tipped up on both ends of the frequency spectrum to accommodate the Frequency losses during the cutting process. But CD’s don’t have these problems and it made them very bright in the top, and boomy in the bottom. It took them a while before they figured out they needed to be equalized first. Of course, they had to know, but just didn’t care! They were trying to get some CD’s on the shelves, ready or not. For a while, I had no faith in the medium. Those first bad discs really gave it a black eye as far as I was concerned. I looked at CD’s as a novelty, a passing phase. Until the day I walked into the record store and the place was full of CD’s, which had been all vinyl just a week before! The salesman was nearly in tears as he told me how they took all the Records and threw them into a cube truck like trash. It was that moment I realized it was here to stay. And at that moment I wasn’t very happy about it, I felt like the salesman, all that good music going to waste.

Russell

StanleyB
25-04-2018, 20:59
I still own my first discs from 1983. They came in a packet of five whenever you bought a CDP from Lasky's.

Macca
26-04-2018, 07:22
I! I read somewhere back then, that many labels were in such a rush to get music on CD’s that they took masters for vinyl, which are tipped up on both ends of the frequency spectrum to accommodate the Frequency losses during the cutting process. But CD’s don’t have these problems and it made them very bright in the top, and boomy in the bottom. It took them a while before they figured out they needed to be equalized first. Of course, they had to know, but just didn’t care! They were trying to get some CD’s on the shelves, ready or not. For a while, I had no faith in the medium. Those first bad discs really gave it a black eye as far as I was concerned.

I suspect that is an audiophile myth. I actively try to buy the first releases rather than the later issues and re-masters as they often have a much higher dynamic range, and I'm not the only one who has discovered this. That's why the original releases sell for a lot more second-hand.

I think the explanation for the 'very bright' sound was the systems some people were using back then. The people who complained about it were a vocal minority, the rest of the world adopted the cd pretty happily.

StanleyB
26-04-2018, 08:07
A few of those first CD’s, when they were on a small rack by the cash register, were pretty bad. I bought Heart, Little Queen, and it was nearly unlistenable! The female vocals were so shrill it would curl your toenails! I read somewhere back then, that many labels were in such a rush to get music on CD’s that they took masters for vinyl, which are tipped up on both ends of the frequency spectrum to accommodate the Frequency losses during the cutting process. But CD’s don’t have these problems and it made them very bright in the top, and boomy in the bottom. It took them a while before they figured out they needed to be equalized first. Of course, they had to know, but just didn’t care! They were trying to get some CD’s on the shelves, ready or not. For a while, I had no faith in the medium. Those first bad discs really gave it a black eye as far as I was concerned.
A lot of stories were made up over the years and turned into urban myths. But the reality is quite different.
I was one of the 1st group of 10 repair engineers to be trained up by the likes of Sony, Philips etc to service the CD players that they were going to release. And from the outset we were told that the discs were 16 bit, whilst some players were as low as 12 bits due to lack of technical knowledge at that stage to make 16 bit players cheaper. Those lower bit players produced a very bright sound due to their limited D to A capabilities.

There was also a problem with regards to the de-emphasis requirements. HIFI users were accustomed to the RIAA curve from vinyl. The de-emphasis used on CD was alien to the new adaptors of CD, and it had to be eventually changed. Some disc players and even DACs (my TC-7510 for instance) have an extra bit of circuitry to recognize the older discs and their emphasis, and convert it to the later decoding curve.
It's not that they didn't know and didn't care. How would they have known? It was all new and CD engineers were as much in the dark as the sound engineers about how to get the best fro the new medium.

By the way I still have most of my discs that I bought in the eighties, and they sound terrific.

datdad
26-04-2018, 12:37
No one ever skinned up on a CD case and enjoyed it.

So right, where me Rizlas?

Theadmans
26-04-2018, 17:23
A lot of stories were made up over the years and turned into urban myths. But the reality is quite different.
I was one of the 1st group of 10 repair engineers to be trained up by the likes of Sony, Philips etc to service the CD players that they were going to release. And from the outset we were told that the discs were 16 bit, whilst some players were as low as 12 bits due to lack of technical knowledge at that stage to make 16 bit players cheaper. Those lower bit players produced a very bright sound due to their limited D to A capabilities.

There was also a problem with regards to the de-emphasis requirements. HIFI users were accustomed to the RIAA curve from vinyl. The de-emphasis used on CD was alien to the new adaptors of CD, and it had to be eventually changed. Some disc players and even DACs (my TC-7510 for instance) have an extra bit of circuitry to recognize the older discs and their emphasis, and convert it to the later decoding curve.
It's not that they didn't know and didn't care. How would they have known? It was all new and CD engineers were as much in the dark as the sound engineers about how to get the best fro the new medium.

By the way I still have most of my discs that I bought in the eighties, and they sound terrific.

My first CD Player - a Philips - was only 14 Bit. Actually sounded better to me than some of the 16 Bit Japanese jobs though.

I bought the first press UK Factory CD of New Order's "Low-Life" in 1986. The disc was pressed in Japan and had Pre-Emphasis.

In the 1990s I had an early Cambridge Dacmagic which had a light to show if Pre-Emphasis was detected. This was was most useful.

Today after I rip a CD with Pre-Emphasis in Exact Audio Copy I then process the FLACs with the free Sox program. I can then play them as FLACs through my Raspberry Pi Squeezebox clones with the Pre-Emphasis taken care of.

BTW Stanley - I always thought Pre-Emphasis was part of the Redbook CD standard. If I am understanding you correctly not all CD player do Pre-Emphasis ? I have a fairly recent Creek 50CD player. Cost me close on £1000. I wonder if that handles Pre-Emphasis ? I perhaps wrongly assumed that if you play an actual disc on a standard CD Player (as opposed to FLACs through a DAC) that Pre-Emphasis would be dealt with ?

walpurgis
26-04-2018, 17:29
My first CD player was a Toshiba XR-J9 mini top loader, bought around 1983 if I recall. I thought it sounded pretty good. I gave it to a friend, who as far as I know still uses it.

http://i64.tinypic.com/29y0d5.jpg

GrahamS
01-11-2018, 10:51
We are old folk now, and we like what we are used to. I find it hard to imagine not owning any music and instead just finding it by searching on a pad and pressing play. It may be more convenient, and there is no reason why it should sound any different to playing a cd, but I don't like it.

But the youngsters find it all very bizarre. They want Kylie, they just search 'Kylie' and pick the song they want to hear. And I'll grant you there are plenty my age and older who are fine with that also. But there are a couple of unintended consequences.

Firstly there is no incentive to sit down and listen to a whole album as a body of work. Just pick your favourite tracks and then move on to something else. That's a shame.

Second, when I was a youth we would go to a mate's house on Friday night to play pool. He was the youngest of nine and his brothers and sisters had long since left home but had left behind their record collections. So this youth had about 600 vinyl albums spanning 1968 through 1982.

As a result we discovered all the old stuff that we would not have been exposed to otherwise, except via the odd single release occasionally played on the radio. And are you ever going to hear, for example, 'Tull's 'Good Morning Weathercock' on the radio? No. No you're not.

So how will today's youth get their musical education just listening to the odd Kylie track? Answer is, of course, that they won't, they will just continue to consume the modern pap because that is all they know. And if young people, in their ignorance, are happily consuming the pap then there is no incentive to produce anything better.

Just seen this. I will print it out and frame it and hang it on my living room wall, so that it can be read by all of my grandchildren. Thanks for putting it so eloquently, Martin.

Pharos
01-11-2018, 11:24
I agree entirely with Martin's post with the exception that occasionally something of merit is released, for eg., Amie.

The effort put into much music in the period he cites seems way above that exhibited currently, it often had a depth in verbal meaning which took considerable time to understand, lovely chord choices and melody, with a great deal of innovation, given the limits of the then technology. Repeated listenings enabled more to come out, and often, despite the more primitive technology, it was better recorded than much current music.

I try and try to see what is the merit of much I hear currently, but of course it is a reflection of the current human zeitgeist and malaise. Bah-Bah Black Sheep, with a looped drum beat anyone?

Pieoftheday
01-11-2018, 19:01
I agree entirely with Martin's post with the exception that occasionally something of merit is released, for eg., Amie.

The effort put into much music in the period he cites seems way above that exhibited currently, it often had a depth in verbal meaning which took considerable time to understand, lovely chord choices and melody, with a great deal of innovation, given the limits of the then technology. Repeated listenings enabled more to come out, and often, despite the more primitive technology, it was better recorded than much current music.

I try and try to see what is the merit of much I hear currently, but of course it is a reflection of the current human zeitgeist and malaise. Bah-Bah Black Sheep, with a looped drum beat anyone?

Why is much current music recorded worse than older stuff? I've heard the argument it's recorded to sound good on radio, so was stuff from the 40s 50s 60s ? Or maybe it wasnt? Is that a more recent thing?

walpurgis
01-11-2018, 19:15
Why is much current music recorded worse than older stuff? I've heard the argument it's recorded to sound good on radio, so was stuff from the 40s 50s 60s ? That's not meant to be argumeantative, I honestly don't get it:)

More like the fact that the vast majority of the music buying public only have crap equipment to play it on, so nobody bothers too much about recording and production quality, 'cos most wouldn't notice.

Macca
01-11-2018, 19:15
Why is much current music recorded worse than older stuff? I've heard the argument it's recorded to sound good on radio, so was stuff from the 40s 50s 60s ? That's not meant to be argumeantative, I honestly don't get it:)

Quiet bits don't really work on the radio given that most radios sound pretty poor so pop gets mixed to punch out a bit. They're not really expecting their target market to play it on a quality audio system. So when digital came along you had the loudness wars where everything was banged up to the max. No dynamics just a wall of sound.

This didn't affect proper music so much though until remastering started and they banged all the old stuff up to the max as well. That's why it's usually best to go for the original CD release rather than a remaster or later edition.

Pieoftheday
01-11-2018, 19:22
More like the fact that the vast majority of the music buying public only have crap equipment to play music on, so nobody bothers too much about recording and production quality, 'cos most wouldn't notice.

But does that mean the people producing music today don't care? And don't the artists care if what they put out sounds pants? I have a fair few albums from the 80s 90s that sound crap/hard, I've often thought what the fook were they thinking!

walpurgis
01-11-2018, 19:31
But does that mean the people producing music today don't care? And don't the artists care if what they put out sounds pants? I have a fair few albums from the 80s 90s that sound crap/hard, I've often thought what the fook were they thinking!

It's not that they don't care. They just don't know better. And as for artists, the pop music business is generally a money oriented machine turning out dross for the masses 'performed' (for want of a better word) by pretty girls and boys, chosen for their looks and not much else. Shortcomings in ability are dealt with in the studio. Proper musicians tend not to feature so often in mainstream music sales, but no doubt some would have input on sound quality.

Pieoftheday
01-11-2018, 19:35
It's not that they don't care. They just don't know better. And as for artists, the pop music business is generally a money oriented machine turning out dross for the masses 'performed' (for want of a better word) by pretty girls and boys, chosen for their looks and not much else. Shortcomings in ability are dealt with in the studio. Proper musicians tend not to feature so often in mainstream music sales, but no doubt some would have input on sound quality.

It's enough to give it all up and buy a sonos:eek:

Macca
01-11-2018, 19:40
But does that mean the people producing music today don't care? And don't the artists care if what they put out sounds pants? I have a fair few albums from the 80s 90s that sound crap/hard, I've often thought what the fook were they thinking!

Which albums?

Pieoftheday
01-11-2018, 20:20
Which albums?

All the stone roses, radiohead Pablo honey , im not listing all of them. Toy Dolls Anthology is perfect

Macca
01-11-2018, 20:32
All the stone roses, radiohead Pablo honey , 8m not listing all of them. Toy Dolls Anthology is perfect

Don't know if you are talking vinyl or cd but I've got both the Stone Roses albums on CD and vinyl. Agree neither is a top class recording but not hard sounding and neither sounds crap or I wouldn't still play them. Not got any Radiohead or Toy Dolls but I'm familiar with them. Can imagine Toy dolls sounding a bit brash on a 'forward sounding' system but not Radiohead.


Have to say I think it might be the balance of your system James. Although I'll grant that mine swings slightly the other way and is slightly too soft.

Barry
01-11-2018, 20:53
A lot of stories were made up over the years and turned into urban myths. But the reality is quite different.
I was one of the 1st group of 10 repair engineers to be trained up by the likes of Sony, Philips etc to service the CD players that they were going to release. And from the outset we were told that the discs were 16 bit, whilst some players were as low as 12 bits due to lack of technical knowledge at that stage to make 16 bit players cheaper. Those lower bit players produced a very bright sound due to their limited D to A capabilities.

There was also a problem with regards to the de-emphasis requirements. HIFI users were accustomed to the RIAA curve from vinyl. The de-emphasis used on CD was alien to the new adaptors of CD, and it had to be eventually changed. Some disc players and even DACs (my TC-7510 for instance) have an extra bit of circuitry to recognize the older discs and their emphasis, and convert it to the later decoding curve.
It's not that they didn't know and didn't care. How would they have known? It was all new and CD engineers were as much in the dark as the sound engineers about how to get the best fro the new medium.

By the way I still have most of my discs that I bought in the eighties, and they sound terrific.

Surely any de-emphasis is performed within the DAC: all CD inputs on preamps are flat line-level inputs with a sensitivity of 1 - 2V for full output.

Certainly there used to be a problem with CD players overloading a line-level input on some '70s vintage amplifiers - leading to a flat and 'grey' SQ.

struth
01-11-2018, 20:57
A bit harsh on modern CDs. Most Ive got are very good. A lot of the remixing done also helps with headphone listening too

Pieoftheday
02-11-2018, 16:17
Don't know if you are talking vinyl or cd but I've got both the Stone Roses albums on CD and vinyl. Agree neither is a top class recording but not hard sounding and neither sounds crap or I wouldn't still play them. Not got any Radiohead or Toy Dolls but I'm familiar with them. Can imagine Toy dolls sounding a bit brash on a 'forward sounding' system but not Radiohead.


Have to say I think it might be the balance of your system James. Although I'll grant that mine swings slightly the other way and is slightly too soft.

It occurred to me that I havnt listened to those albums(cd) well flac files now,for a long time and probably not on my current set up,so I gave them a whirl today and other than Turns into Stone,they all sound really good, even Turns into Stone didn't sound as bad as I recall:) so maybe my previous set up or set ups wernt up to scratch, you live n learn

Macca
02-11-2018, 18:39
It occurred to me that I havnt listened to those albums(cd) well flac files now,for a long time and probably not on my current set up,so I gave them a whirl today and other than Turns into Stone,they all sound really good, even Turns into Stone didn't sound as bad as I recall:) so maybe my previous set up or set ups wernt up to scratch, you live n learn

Well there you go :)


IME engineers in proper studios know what they are doing. If a professional recording sounds hard or harsh it's down to the system not some cloth eared mixing gadgee.

bumpy
02-11-2018, 18:52
There is also the fact that all a CDP does is convert a digital code into an analogue signal. Modern devices such as computers and other devices do that just as well



This is where your argument falls flat.

Mikeandvan
03-11-2018, 20:38
Where can you pick up cds cheap? I can't be arsed looking for individual titles on ebay. I don't think streaming has the ease of use its supposed to. And cd quality much better.

walpurgis
03-11-2018, 20:42
I can't be arsed looking for individual titles on ebay.

That's the easiest place to find them. Hardly takes much effort if you know which ones you want.

You could always try boot sales and charity shops, you'll find loads of CD's there.

AJSki2fly
03-11-2018, 21:27
I don't think streaming has the ease of use its supposed to. And cd quality much better.

Not my experience of Streaming and it’s certainly as good as CD and usually better, you obviously need a reasonable internet connection speed.

montesquieu
03-11-2018, 23:22
Not my experience of Streaming and it’s certainly as good as CD and usually better, you obviously need a reasonable internet connection speed.

I have Spotify but my main use of it is to identify whether a particular album is worth buying or not in LP or CD format.

I do pity the poor buggers who imagine their streamed version is anything close to what can be had via LP.

mightymonoped
03-11-2018, 23:34
I use Spotify to scout for cd or Flac potential.
Having said that, Tidal was the nicest of the streaming sources I’ve used in terms of SQ/user interface.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

montesquieu
03-11-2018, 23:38
I use Spotify to scout for cd or Flac potential.
Having said that, Tidal was the nicest of the streaming sources I’ve used in terms of SQ/user interface.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


not for classical it isn't ... you have an album with multiple composers it's impossible to tell track from track.

mightymonoped
04-11-2018, 01:36
not for classical it isn't ... you have an album with multiple composers it's impossible to tell track from track.

I didn’t say it was the nicest anyone has used, I said it was the nicest I have used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AJSki2fly
04-11-2018, 04:29
I have Spotify but my main use of it is to identify whether a particular album is worth buying or not in LP or CD format.

I do pity the poor buggers who imagine their streamed version is anything close to what can be had via LP.

I quite agree, it really depends on what you use for streaming, as I understand it Spotify is mainly lossy files. However if you use a site like Tidal or Qobuz then the majority of files are available in CD quality or above. So then the listening experience can be rather good. I feel sorry for the younger generations who don’t know anything else than lossy stored music, often the masters are copied and remix specifically to enhance aspects of the music to try and get around the impact of the compression process. As I understand it this is why a lot of modern music can sound like a wall of sound with little headroom. Maybe this is why there is the vinyl revival, because it sounds so different.


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jandl100
04-11-2018, 07:29
I had a trial fortnight with idagio, a classical only streaming service.
They've thought out the indexing and search facilities quite well for classical.
Sadly, they are still coming up to speed in terms of catalogue and are way behind Spotify and Qobuz etc.
Their standard service is CD quality at £10 per month.

I'm one of the poor buggers who is perfectly happy with streaming.
My favoured service is Qobuz, and I only really listen to classical. Uniquely (?) the Qobuz listings are indexed by recording company (e.g. Decca, ECM etc) which is a very powerful way of finding new to me music and recordings.

Liberdade
04-11-2018, 08:41
There's a heck of a lot of relatively obscure music - free jazz, contemporary classical, etc - that was only ever issued on CD in very limited quantities, and which will probably never be reissued, nor available on a streaming service. Perhaps not enough to trigger a revival of the CD format, but certainly enough to maintain ongoing interest in it, and decent prices on ebay for rare items.

GrahamS
04-11-2018, 08:51
My niece lives in a village in central Lincolnshire quite near the town of Bourne. She cannot get a broadband service. She gets dial-up speeds and cannot stream anything. CD and vinyl are her only sources. I visit often and enjoy listening to whatever CDs she has recently bought. I have been having broadband speed problems for the past week or so - I live not two clicks from a major exchange but my download speed has deteriorated to less that 4.5kBps. I pay for 20! My provider is Sky, who say that they are "working on it." If I didn't have my CDs and my Vinyls I would have nothing.

It will be a while before I consign my music pleasures to a "streaming" source, if ever.

Macca
04-11-2018, 09:22
I have Spotify but my main use of it is to identify whether a particular album is worth buying or not in LP or CD format.

I do pity the poor buggers who imagine their streamed version is anything close to what can be had via LP.

Depends on what you're looking for in a listening experience and how good your streaming set up is.

struth
04-11-2018, 09:29
streaming can be superb, done right. as can vinyl and cd.. all just different ways to a goal

walpurgis
04-11-2018, 09:35
I have been having broadband speed problems for the past week or so - I live not two clicks from a major exchange but my download speed has deteriorated to less that 4.5kBps.

Mine is as poor sometimes and not much better at the best of times and I'm in West London!

Silent
06-11-2018, 18:49
I think I may be right in predicting that before too long, CD's will go through a similar revival in interest and 'fashionability' to that experienced by records some years ago, bringing them to their undeniable current popularity.

Some manufacturers are introducing new high spec CD players and transports. Have they spotted a trend? I have a feeling there is the beginnings of one.

CD's are very cheap at the moment. Is this the time to start stocking up?

Fortunately, I have nearly all the CD's I'm likely to want and several decent players and DAC's, so I suppose I'm ahead of the game :).


I've not noticed a trend but I have (within the last year) been buying plenty of CDs. My main reasoning is to hear my favourite songs in a higher quality than Spotify. I hope there isn't such a revival, judging by the price of vinyls at the moment, I definitely don't want CDs going the same way.