Components. Do they really make a difference?

[dave2010]

Having been around here for a few weeks I'm amazed at the number of tweaks which seem to be being done by replacing components. Also I am aware that some better equipment from established manufacturers is claimed to be made by using better quality or more accurate components.

When making recipes it often helps to use better ingredients - meat, vegetables, fruit etc., but not always. Sometimes adding cheap wine - even almost undrinkable wine to a recipe can make a big difference, but it'd probably be a complete waste to use £100 bottle in a recipe. So I think it may be with equipment.

I can understand that having more accurate components may make a difference, as that would give a better approximation to the idealised circuit design. Otherwise, what differences are there?

Maybe sometimes there is the deliberate intention to somehow improve on the circuit design. An example might be a circuit with a transformer (some DACs - eg. the Audio Note Kit 3.1 DAC uses a transformer in the Current->Voltage (I-V) stages) and transformers vary according to bandwidth and gain, so replacing one transformer by another may make a difference.

Some component substitutions perhaps just improve the overall reliability and stability of the equipment. Others may actually change the circuit behaviour - e.g changes in capacitor values and resistor values.

Which brings me back to my original query. Suppose the intention is not to change the circuits, but simply to replace components with better quality ones. What difference can that possibly make apart from increasing reliability and stability? I guess there could be small effects with capacitors and inductors, where more rigid construction could minimise mechanical effects, but are they really worth changing the original components for? Where the component is more complex, such as an op-amp, then there coulld be a difference. I gather that slew rates can have an effect - though that might also be considered a design change - substituting a faster responding op-amp for a slow one. Also, with more complex components, some may have better characteristics - e.g be more linear (assuming they're supposed to be linear ..) etc. But capacitors? Really?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Dave,
I have heard the effect of changing between several different brands of a single resistor (per channel) of the same value. The differences were obvious, repeatable and of varying magnitude.

The application was the loading resistors across a pair of step-up transformers. The swap can be made in moments.
My wife was present during all the tests and our perception of what was going on in the case of each change was identical.

So if you can prefer a single resistor, then yes I'd say looking at swapping key critical components could be a worthwhile pursuit.......if you've got the time, money, inclination and patience!

[DSJR]

I ought to add that properly designed equipment for the task minimises the need for fancy components and since there's so much else wrong with the vast majority of domestic audio systems, especially in the majority of speakers and rooms out there, just changing a cap or two, let alone resistors, is the least of one's problems, unless you're a total anorak hobbyist for such things :respect:

[Ali Tait]

Components can be made out of different materials e.g. teflon,paper in oil,polypropelene etc. capacitors.It's my experience that different components do indeed change the sound of a circuit.

[dave2010]

Chris


I have heard the effect of changing between several different brands of a single resistor (per channel) of the same value. The differences were obvious, repeatable and of varying magnitude.Mmmm. Interesting. Have you any idea why the changes had this effect? Did you measure the resistors as being the same, or could they have been the same nominal value, but nevertheless different?

I believe you, but it seems odd.

[technobear]

Components. Do they really make a difference?

Yes, they do.

No, it has nothing to do with resistance, inductance or capacitance.

It can sometimes involve microphony but not often.

Mostly the differences occur at the molecular level and below.

Much of our present componentry was designed/invented as much by trial and error as by understanding how different materials affect an alternating electrical signal.

I feel sorry for people who get hung up on a lack of scientific explanations for how some things work instead of just trusting their ears and enjoying the music.

[dave2010]

Yes, they do.
It can sometimes involve microphony but not often.
I agree with that.


Mostly the differences occur at the molecular level and below.

There will be differences, but I don't believe they're significant.

I feel sorry for people who get hung up on a lack of scientific explanations for how some things work instead of just trusting their ears and enjoying the music.Oh dear. No need to feel sorry for me I'm afraid. I do listen, but I also look for sensible explanations.

I feel sorry for people who get taken in by pseudo science and conned into thinking they hear significant differences when they in fact don't. Sometimes they are persuaded to part with quite large amounts of money. I have no disagreement with some people who really can hear differences, but this can be verified scientifically.

[DSJR]

Some resistors are noisier than others apparently...

[Labarum]

Some resistors are noisier than others apparently...

And no resisters will be as noisy as those in the original Williamson or Quad II amplifiers!

[Labarum]

Some resistors are noisier than others apparently...

And no modern resisters will be as noisy as those in the original Williamson or Quad II amplifiers!

[Covenant]

Replacing components, if chosen wisely are a very cost effective way of improving the quality of your system. I have just upgraded my Beresford dac for about £70. I firmly believe I would have to spend a few hundred more to better it.
I agree that just replacing components with more expensive ones is risky unless you really know your stuff.

[technobear]

Mostly the differences occur at the molecular level and below.

There will be differences, but I don't believe they're significant.


So where else are you going to look for your sensible explanations?

[Ali Tait]

I ought to add that properly designed equipment for the task minimises the need for fancy components and since there's so much else wrong with the vast majority of domestic audio systems, especially in the majority of speakers and rooms out there, just changing a cap or two, let alone resistors, is the least of one's problems, unless you're a total anorak hobbyist for such things :respect:

It's not about the need for boutique components,it's about tweaking your gear to your tastes.If you didn't design the piece of kit,then someone else did,and their taste is not necessarily yours! It's an extremely cost-effective way of optimising your system to your taste.

Also,all commercial gear is built to a price,with often quite a percentage of the budget spent on a nice case,leaving little to buy decent components.It's often the case that spending a few quid here can radically improve something out of all proportion to the money spent.Much cheaper than buying a new component.

[Marco]

Top post, Ali - I agree 100%, and indeed have done precisely what you describe with great results! :)

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Yep me too,with help from folk who know a lot more than I.

[dave2010]

So where else are you going to look for your sensible explanations?OK. You do have a point - and I'm thinking about it. Differences between some devices can be explained at a higher level - electromagnetic fields, heat, vibrations etc, but there are some where you are right that going down to the molecular levels and quantum mechanics may be the only way to explain things.

[Ali Tait]

So are you more interested in the reasons for any differences or if any differences do indeed exist? If the latter,then it would be quite easy to determine-just change some components in your system and listen for yourself.

[DSJR]

It's not about the need for boutique components,it's about tweaking your gear to your tastes.If you didn't design the piece of kit,then someone else did,and their taste is not necessarily yours! It's an extremely cost-effective way of optimising your system to your taste.

Also,all commercial gear is built to a price,with often quite a percentage of the budget spent on a nice case,leaving little to buy decent components.It's often the case that spending a few quid here can radically improve something out of all proportion to the money spent.Much cheaper than buying a new component.

But Hifi isn't about tweaking to a possibly flawed taste. It's about reproducing what's there in the source material without dostorting it any more - even Marco has said this.

By the way, not ALL gear is built to a price, using the casework as the most costly part. In any case, we can buy better and closer tolerance components for pennies these days that we could thirty years ago. I maintain that Glenn can design better equipment with off-the-shelf components/valves than most people can make with boutique gear.

So there!! :ner:

[Rare Bird]

People seem to think Specialised components are gonna transform a good item into a killer! It aint, all the parts do is vitalise more than anything but not to great heights that people make out..Regarding vintage gear any modern component can bring results..The one thing that buggs me is the Electrolytic Capacitor thing Elco are shit & always will be. I tried a fist full of very expensive Rubycon black gates against down to earth cheap as chips Panasonic 'FC' i'm glad to inform you the gates are a waste of money IMHO.I've since used the Panasonic'FC' in every unit i've bought, they are great.

[Themis]

Do components make a difference ? Certainly.

Is this difference significant in all cases ? Well, it depends on the rest of the setup and it also depends the way each of us listens to music.

Is the difference worth the price ? Assuming you know what you do, probably. DYIers know better why and what to do. Most of the others (like me) don't. If you don't know what/why you do, then obtaining a good performance/price ratio is mostly a matter of chance, you need a lot of it. ;)

I usually prefer buying another gear for upgrading, rather than upgrading components : it's my way of being sure of what I do. I prefer testing and comparing before investing.

All this, imho, of course. :)

[Ali Tait]

But Hifi isn't about tweaking to a possibly flawed taste. It's about reproducing what's there in the source material without dostorting it any more - even Marco has said this.

By the way, not ALL gear is built to a price, using the casework as the most costly part. In any case, we can buy better and closer tolerance components for pennies these days that we could thirty years ago. I maintain that Glenn can design better equipment with off-the-shelf components/valves than most people can make with boutique gear.

So there!! :ner:

Not all gear is built to a price??? If it's sold to make a living,then of course it's built to a price!! The designer is not going to sell at a bloody loss is he!!! This is where DIY differs.It's not built to any price except what the builder can afford to spend.

I haven't heard any of Glenn's gear,but I'm sure it's very good,too many people say so for it to be otherwise,but it is nontheless built to appeal commercially.I know designers and have heard brainchilds of theirs that I have no doubt will run rings round anything else that is made to be sold for profit.

[dave2010]

So are you more interested in the reasons for any differences or if any differences do indeed exist? If the latter,then it would be quite easy to determine-just change some components in your system and listen for yourself.Personally I'd probably rather leave things alone, unless I found I'd got kit which was old or out of guarantee and I wanted to experiment.

What sort of component changes are usually worth it, in your opinion? Resistors, capacitors, inductors, transformers,diodes etc.? I think it depends not only on the component type, but also what the function of the component is in the circuit. I gather that there are some much better low noise resistors now than several decades back, but maybe most decent designers manage to use components that are appropriate - though perhaps not - which is why the interest.

[Ali Tait]

Well my experience is with valve amps mostly.I found quite large differences between different coupling capacitors,though differences do exist in changing any component I've found,though it's often a case of different rather than better,hence my comment about tuning your system to your own taste.Most are easily explainable due to he different materials used to make the components.Some things are less easily explainable however.I remember hearing a friend's 300b amp,a fantastic amp in itself,which was transformed by changing the 300b to a pair of very rare 300a's.This remains one of the finest sounding amps I've ever heard.Now,the 300a is electrically identical to the 300b,yet the sound was completely different.It was speculated that it may have been the age of the valves (30's) had changed something about the metal of which the valves were constructed.Be that as it may,it shows that some reasons for differences between components may not be apparent,or not yet known about.

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

All sorts of components have a major impact on sound quality. However, the ones in my experience that have the biggest influence on the sound are those which are closest in-line with the audio signal and with power supplies, such as smoothing or coupling capacitors in a preamp. You can literally transform the sound by, for example, upgrading electrolytic types for polyproplenes.

Another area where significant component upgrades can be carried out is in loudspeaker crossovers, where capacitors, resistors and inductors all have a major impact on the quality of reproduction of our favourite music.

I'm afraid the only way you will 'get' exactly what the benefits are of upgrading components is to try doing it yourself and hearing the results with your own ears - whenever of course this would be possible.

The reason we're rather pro-equipment modification on AOS, is because, providing you know what you're doing, it's an excellent way of significantly increasing sonic performance with minimal financial outlay - certainly compared to buying a new 'box' from a commercial equipment manufacturer - and thus this results in achieving the highest 'sound-per-pound' value.

I've just recently bought these superb Teflon Tin Foil coupling capacitors for my Croft preamp:


http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/6062/tefloncapm.jpg (http://img225.imageshack.us/i/tefloncapm.jpg/)


http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/scr_teflon.html


...which I'm hopeful will give the type of sonic improvement that would take a rather expensive 'box' purchase to achieve :cool:

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

So you went for the SCR's then Marco.Very good caps to my ears,though they will take a while to settle down.Are they fitted yet?

[Marco]

Hi Ali,

Not yet mate, but soon... ;)

Yes, I couldn't resist, so I'll keep you posted on my thoughts!

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

I'm late seeing this but...




I feel sorry for people who get taken in by pseudo science and conned into thinking they hear significant differences when they in fact don't. Sometimes they are persuaded to part with quite large amounts of money. I have no disagreement with some people who really can hear differences, but this can be verified scientifically.

_

Don't feel sorry for and worry your pretty little head about anyone on this forum. Everyone here is discerning enough not to be "conned" into thinking they hear a difference as a result of a component change when, as you assert, they may not.

Such assertions as yours are not only insufferably arrogant but contrary to the ethos of this forum and therefore the burdon of proof here rests not with the person deriving an improvement with their ears but with the person asserting that they imagined such audible improvement.

I would suggest that such burdon of proof rests with providing specific examples of component modifications documented on this forum that have not resulted in any clearly audible benefit.


Personal experiences of not hearing any benefit following given component changes are of course valid.

What we seek here, most of us (not just those behind the forum orthodoxy) is a growing body of consensus of experience pointing to the effectiveness of given component changes.

Notable examples are in abundance in the Digital Domain and also here on the Drawing Board.

Pointless subjectivist/objectivist circular arguments are fortunately rare here.

[Themis]

Dave was not talking about specific people in this forum, I think. Neither implied that component modifications was a "pseudo-science". :o

This phrase was an answer to Chris "I feel sorry for people who get hung up on a lack of scientific explanations for how some things work" which was not (as I see it) directly targeted to Dave... So I guess, the answer was not targeted back.

Of course, I may be wrong.

[Joe]

When I was having my valve amp fettled a couple of years back, the fettler emailed me a couple of times to ask if I wanted component A replaced with component B, as B was better than A. I always said yes, on the grounds that he knew more about the amp in question than me, so if he said B was better he was probably right, but he might as well have been writing Chinese for the extent to which I understood what changes he was making.

The amp certainly sounded better on its return, but it had been treated to a thorough cleaning and a couple of new output valves, so whether the other component changes made a difference, I couldn't say.

So I'm fence-sitting on this one, as per.

[Steve Toy]

You are right Dimitri. Nevertheless the burdon of proof rests with the assertion that given component changes make no difference and not with the one that they do.

By starting the thread here on the Drawing Board and not in the general discussion area (Blank Canvass) suggests that it applies specifically to DIYers here.

[Themis]

You are right Dimitri. Nevertheless the burdon of proof rests with the assertion that given component changes make no difference and not with the one that they do.

By starting the thread here on the Drawing Board and not in the general discussion area (Blank Canvass) suggests that it applies specifically to DIYers here.
Whoever thinks that component changes don't make any difference, holds a *de facto* anti-scientific opinion, imho. Is like believing that components are perfect and have no tolerances : it's a dream.
This is the only starting, serious and "scientific" assertion, imho.

Then, whether specific changes (within the initial component's values) are detectable is a complex matter, which can only be "scientifically" proved with listening tests, as we have very few real measures to do an accurate job.

When we change the component's values, this is like designing another piece of kit (the way I see it). Comparing it with the initial kit is like comparing two different kits alltogether. Still, listening is the best judge.

In other words, listening is essential, and discerning people's opinions is the final point.

Otherwise, why would we buy and design hifi gear ?

[Marco]

Hi Ali,

I didn't realise that SCR were connected with Obbligato... Shown below are the exact same caps I got from Hi-fi Collective (which as you can see are marked 'Obbligato by SCR'):

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/node/97

Last year these were fitted as smoothing caps in the PSU for the Croft (obtained from D.I.Y Hifi Supply):

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/catalog/34

...and I really liked their effect! So if the SCR/Obbligato coupling caps are of similar or better quality, the result should be very good indeed. I'm also in a way quite pleased that the smoothing and coupling caps will 'match', if you see what I mean :)

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Dmitri, on a rational/philosphical level I think you've nailed it and there is no ambiguity. :)

[Ali Tait]

Hi Ali,

I didn't realise that SCR were connected with Obbligato... Shown below are the exact same caps I got from Hi-fi Collective (which as you can see are marked 'Obbligato by SCR'):

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/node/97

Last year these were fitted as smoothing caps in the PSU for the Croft (obtained from D.I.Y Hifi Supply):

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/catalog/34

...and I really liked their effect! So if the SCR/Obbligato coupling caps are of similar or better quality, the result should be very good indeed. I'm also in a way quite pleased that the smoothing and coupling caps will 'match', if you see what I mean :)

Marco.

That's interesting-I wasn't aware of that either.I'd guess they are the same cap.

[Ali Tait]

Those black Obbligatos are not the same though I don't think,they don't have the same voltage rating.In any case,I think you'll be very happy with them.

[Marco]

Hi Ali,

Both my black Obbligatos and the SCR Teflons are rated at 1000v... I know the black Obbligatos shown on the website are only 500V, but the ones used in my Croft as smoothing caps are marked 1000V :)

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Hmm,what is the price difference between them?

[Rare Bird]

What i would sugest is a} You know what you are doing & b} never listern to anyone & take there positive findings as gospel, hoping to get the same results. Most the time you wont, a lot of components are designed for certain areas, you go stuffing amplifiers with anything you'll more than likley make it sound worse/unbalanced. My finding with Rubycon Black Gate Standard Vs Panasonic 'FC' is the Panasonics were cleaner to my ears! May not be the case with other ears..So for me all this BG boasting doesnt stand up in my experience.

A while ago someone on AOS commented that Kimber Kaps sounded crap! To be fair they are one of the best sounding Polycaps you can buy, this person just didnt like em.I personally thought it a ridiculous statement tbh.

Some people love Tight tolorence Metal Film Resistors, some hate em, some love modern Carbon Resistors, other feel they are terrible wooley things..I've often heard people claim Poly caps such as Solen & Audyn sound grainy other love there clarity...One of the best poly caps for the money are Ansar 'Supersound', they are remarkable for the smallish out lay.

Anyone who wants to give this specialist part swapping thing a go i'd recommend the amp power supply first. Slit Foil Reservour caps + high grade bypass caps, Scottky fast rectifier diodes etc etc,Aswell as power supply parts upgrade you need to looking at cutting contact count down, Fuses are horrible things, outting the AC fuse (In the amp PSU, not the wall) & the cheap power isolator switch needs to go for an all in one switch/circuit breaker it will a} cut down contact resistance & b} get rid of a bit of wire.I'm a believer of captive mains leads to rid the contacts of the IEC Plug/socket.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0416994


Remember if you decide to swap a lot of things in tranny power amps you need to have the ability to reset the output current, you'll get away with an Elco swap..

[Marco]

Hi Ali,

The green 0.22 uF SCRs are $64.00 each. The black Obbligatos rated at 1000V aren't listed on the D.I.Y Hifi Supply site, but from memory I paid Duncan £65 each for them (which is what he paid) after importing them :)

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Ok,sounds like prices are very similar then.Let me know what you think once they are fitted.Be patient though,I found these took quite a while to run in.

[Marco]

Will do, mate. I'll keep you posted :)

Marco.

P.S Andre, good post :cool:

[Chris]

First of all, I understand nowt about electronics and nor do I know the difference between resistors, caps etc. etc.
About 12 months ago, I gave up on trying to get "magic" sound from my Ittok/103Pro combo and rather than change my arm and deck,I decided to go back to Linn and looked for a Troika to retip. I got one sorted last June. But I was left with my AT-650 SUT into my P10 which I felt didn´t marry well with the Troika so I set about looking for an active head amp. I was recommended to look for a Hagerman Piccolo, a kit design, by a mate. Another fanatical DIY mate offered to build it for me so I took a chance and ordered one. At the same time I read up a load of posts on the Hagerman forum re. the Piccolo especially some by a guy called Tubesforever who also frequents vinyl asylum under that name. He had built a souped up version of the Piccolo using BGs and PRP resistors and Russian teflons as coupling caps and had also adapted the board to accept some solderless terminal blocks which meant that at the flick of a switch, rather than changing the load impedance offered to the cartridge, he could flick between load resistors of the SAME VALUES but DIFFERENT MAKES/SOUND CHARACTERISTICS on the fly in function of the disc he was playing. He argues that, say deutsch Grammaphon discs have more than enough sparkle in the treble whereas other labels needed a bit of help in that area etc. etc.. He also used a regulated PS from the Hagerman Bugle instead of the standard battery pack used to power the Piccolo. Anyway, I decided to go for bust and copied his suggestions to a tee. I stress that my finalised Piccolo is in the post (Yes, folks, this has dragged on for months) but the guy who built it for me and has "been burning it in " now for a couple of weeks, insists that it´s the best thing he´s ever heard ( he uses a linto)and is far, far quieter, more natural sounding etc. etc. than the battery version with the stock components. We shall see but it would seem obvious that different components, with differing manufacturing methods and materials will sound quite different even though their electrical values are the same - look at cables. I´m dying to hear my Piccolo and once I decide on the final load impedance my Troika prefers, ( and if I can be bothered) I shall buy 5 matched pairs of resistors of the same value but different makes - schinkoh, mundorf, vishay etc. etc. and hear for myself. A sort of snobbish equalisation at source. How´s that for nerdy anorakness.

[Marco]

Lol, Chris... I salute your attention to detail! :respect:

Marco.

[Chris]

Cheers marco but I´m not at all like that or as one of my very, very most favourite songs says "You don´t know me". Suggestions gratefully received for the very bestest version.

[Themis]

Suggestions gratefully received for the very bestest version.
Ask Jeff (goraman). The "very bestest of the world" it his specialty... :eyebrows:

[The Grand Wazoo]

That's exactly what I did with my step up - the Mu allows you to swap 'em in a moment while playing.
Shinko's won, I seem to remember.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7164/imgp1677.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/i/imgp1677.jpg/)

Edit:
Sorry I just read your post properly rather than scanning it while talking to someone about something else!
That's not what I did at all.

[Chris]

Let´s say it´s different ´cos it´s a SUT but their hearts are in the same place.

[Chris]

Well, after using my Piccolo head amp with PRP resistors in the load slots for over a month and just yesterday changing them for Shinkohs of the same value (470R), I can categorically state that IN MY SET UP, a reistor is not a resistor is not a resistor is not a resistor. Bloody Nora ! Without a doubt, the best bang I´ve ever had for 12 quid.

[Ali Tait]

Yep,resistors do sound different.