Phono pre-amp advice please

[Bonky]

HI, I've been re-visiting my LPs since changing my amp to a WD KEL84 valve jobbie.

I have an Inspire Apollo deck with an AT33PGT cartridge in a Roksan Nima arm serving a Cambridge CP2 MC pre-amp.

The sound is good but lacking bass - when compared with listening to the same recording from a digital source (Cambridge CXC: Beresford SEG DAC; Radio Paradise etc).

Any recommendations? (I have checked the cartridge set-up). I was wondering if the Rega Fono would be a better bet as it has more adjustments to match the specific characteristics of the cartridge.

Budget: "restricted".

The G Slee also took my eye but not sure if the low 0.3mV output from the AT would be an ideal match. I know G Slee offer a free loan.
There's a Leema Essentials in Classifieds for £320. Any good?
My local dealer specialises in Pro-Ject and Lehmann stages.
The iFi Phono2 gets excellent reviews - but reliability seems an issue.
Arcam?

Any advice?

(Also posted in another forum - AS)

Thanks,

[chris@panteg]

AT33PTG should not be lacking in bass?

What settings are you using?

[Bonky]

I think the Cambridge CP2 is the possible bottleneck. It's set on MC (of course), and apart from a rumble filter and 'balance' that's all that can be done.

Thanks.

Richard

[Firebottle]

Can you switch the rumble filter off? Does it make a difference?

[Bigman80]

There was no lack of bass with the AT33 I had here for a while. It's presentation was less impactful and more of a softer feel. Delicate, let's say. Is that where the difference lies or is it tonally deficient?

[walpurgis]

Can you switch the rumble filter off? Does it make a difference?

That's what I was thinking. Don't like rumble filters, they always seem to weaken the bottom end.

[Bonky]

No, the rumble filter doesn't make any difference (to my ears).

Any recommendations for a good mid-range MC phono preamp?
Thanks.
R

[STD305M]

HI, I've been re-visiting my LPs since changing my amp to a WD KEL84 valve jobbie.

I have an Inspire Apollo deck with an AT33PGT cartridge in a Roksan Nima arm serving a Cambridge CP2 MC pre-amp.

The sound is good but lacking bass - when compared with listening to the same recording from a digital source (Cambridge CXC: Beresford SEG DAC; Radio Paradise etc).

Any recommendations? (I have checked the cartridge set-up). I was wondering if the Rega Fono would be a better bet as it has more adjustments to match the specific characteristics of the cartridge.

Budget: "restricted".

The G Slee also took my eye but not sure if the low 0.3mV output from the AT would be an ideal match. I know G Slee offer a free loan.
There's a Leema Essentials in Classifieds for £320. Any good?
My local dealer specialises in Pro-Ject and Lehmann stages.
The iFi Phono2 gets excellent reviews - but reliability seems an issue.
Arcam?

Any advice?

(Also posted in another forum - AS)

Thanks,

.

[STD305M]

Hi Richard,
Im using the same cart with an old A&Rcam HA10 and it sounds great, not lacking in bass at all.
You can pick a second hand one up really cheap on Flee-bay.

Steve...

[Stryder5]

Let's explore a bit deeper please, what interconnects are you using, are they the same? Try swapping them over and see if it makes a difference.

My turntable was sounding poor recently and although the cartridge had been set up a while ago, somehow things moved.
Cartridge VTA and downforce.

[struth]

Maybe use s bit more vtf if your not at limit

[steve-z]

I use the Cambridge CP2 phono stage with an ATF7 moving coil and it sound extremely good and it certainly doesn’t lack bass in my system. I have tried the ATF7 with a Rega Fono MC and it did give slightly better SQ but the difference was not worth paying double the price.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bonky]

Let's explore a bit deeper please, what interconnects are you using, are they the same? Try swapping them over and see if it makes a difference.

My turntable was sounding poor recently and although the cartridge had been set up a while ago, somehow things moved.
Cartridge VTA and downforce.

Cambridge Audio Pacific (1m) leads.

Edit: just tried with 0.5m of Chord Carnivals; slightly better.

Thanks

[Stryder5]

Cambridge Audio Pacific (1m) leads.

Edit: just tried with 0.5m of Chord Carnivals; slightly better.

Thanks

I thought Chord Carnival was a speaker cable, I could be wrong tho. Were these on your digital side ie did you swap?

[Bonky]

I thought Chord Carnival was a speaker cable, I could be wrong tho. Were these on your digital side ie did you swap?

Apologies...of course... Chord C-line; now trying the Cambridge 500 series.

Yes I did swap the cables.

Thanks

[Bonky]

Thanks everyone; much appreciated.

Deleted. Don't add it again please. and 2nd-hand Croft have been suggested.

I've played around: changed cables,; increased tracking weight; changed the position of the Cambridge CP2 (it seems sensitive to nearby mains interference), But ..and it's a big 'but', the sound is still inferior to the digital sources (less muddled, slightly better top end etc). I know the two sources will sound different, but I was hoping for an approx. parity.

At least the bass has improved a little.

I'm tempted by the 2nd-hand Leema and by some of the Pro-Ject tube amps..but am very much open to suggestions/advice.

[chris@panteg]

How have you got the Inspire Apollo sighted?

On a shelf or table, is it well isolated from feedback?

[Stryder5]

I'm still not sure your getting the best out of what you have, just a feeling tho.

Beg, borrow, maybe not steal another phono stage before you part with your cash, is the cartridge new? Some cartridge's take an age to come on song. I had an AT 440mlb ( I know it's MM) that sounded just as you described, till probably 50 hours use!

You say your local dealer does Pro-ject go twist his arm.

I have a Pro-ject Tube Box II, that now sounds good but.....it needed better valves and a better power supply, so my cost to get this far with it was :- bought secondhand £100, valve rolling till I was happy probably £150, linear power supply £118, so £360 ish.

Hindsight I could have done better with something else but experimenting got the better of me....lol.

When I do it again:doh: I will get a stage that has adjustable gain, loading etc.

Again, my advice try before you buy

Good luck


Thanks everyone; much appreciated.

2nd-hand Croft have been suggested.

I've played around: changed cables,; increased tracking weight; changed the position of the Cambridge CP2 (it seems sensitive to nearby mains interference), But ..and it's a big 'but', the sound is still inferior to the digital sources (less muddled, slightly better top end etc). I know the two sources will sound different, but I was hoping for an approx. parity.

At least the bass has improved a little.

I'm tempted by the 2nd-hand Leema and by some of the Pro-Ject tube amps..but am very much open to suggestions/advice.

[Bigman80]

Thanks everyone; much appreciated.

Deleted. 2nd-hand Croft have been suggested.

I've played around: changed cables,; increased tracking weight; changed the position of the Cambridge CP2 (it seems sensitive to nearby mains interference), But ..and it's a big 'but', the sound is still inferior to the digital sources (less muddled, slightly better top end etc). I know the two sources will sound different, but I was hoping for an approx. parity.

At least the bass has improved a little.

I'm tempted by the 2nd-hand Leema and by some of the Pro-Ject tube amps..but am very much open to suggestions/advice.

Save up and buy a Firebottle - Vivant. Super bit of kit.

[struth]

We all know the rules or should by now.

[ianlenco]

One other thing to check is the arm position. Normally it's recommended to get the arm tube parallel to the deck so check it is first. If it is then try lowering the pivot end of the arm, this usually increases the bass. If the headshell end is lower this usually decreases bass, increases treble.

[Bonky]

How have you got the Inspire Apollo sighted?

On a shelf or table, is it well isolated from feedback?

It's on a 4-shelf 'rack' and is on the top shelf.
Thanks

[Bonky]

One other thing to check is the arm position. Normally it's recommended to get the arm tube parallel to the deck so check it is first. If it is then try lowering the pivot end of the arm, this usually increases the bass. If the headshell end is lower this usually decreases bass, increases treble.

It's parallel.

Thanks

[Bonky]

Your post won't last long, nor will mine. if you can get a [deleted] in your budget, do so.

(Concerning the 3-letter company whose name one dare not mention. I was unaware of breaking any rules. I understand the antipathy towards a certain individual and his company, however, I was not reviewing/extolling/criticising said company - just saying that someone said they could be worth a look. Apologies anyway, but let's keep things in proportion.)

Thanks

[struth]

(Concerning the 3-letter company that one dare not mention. I was unaware of breaking any rules. I understand the antipathy towards a certain individual and his company, however, I was not reviewing/extolling/criticising said company - just saying that someone said they could be worth a look. Apologies anyway but let's keep things in proportion.)

Thanks

There is an announcement on every section outlining the rules re this Richard. It has to be enforced so it will be, either by me or someone else....and Oliver does know better.....

[ianlenco]

It's parallel.

Thanks

OK, try lowering the base end of the arm a tad.

[Bonky]

It's OK; I've more important things to worry about. Consider it closed; I'm not going to make waves!
R

[Bonky]

Thanks; I'll try in the morning.

R

[Bigman80]

There is an announcement on every section outlining the rules re this Richard. It has to be enforced so it will be, either by me or someone else....and Oliver does know better.....I do, apologies.

[Bonky]

Grant and Oliver,

PMs sent.

R

[Marco]

It's OK; I've more important things to worry about. Consider it closed; I'm not going to make waves!
R

Cool... I just wonder how you could've missed the *very blatant* warnings, all over the place at the top of every section. Should've gone to Specsavers?:D;)

Anyway, you know now!

Marco.

[DSJR]

The Nima isn't a bass powerhouse of an arm as I recall and modern AT's *to me* major on clarity up top rather than seismic bass. Lowering the arm a little won't do any harm and I remember how an ARO/Koetsu totally changed the bass with seemingly a minor adjustment here in the downwards direction. It's difficult to get a sense of 'parallel' on a tonearm and a mm or two up at the back may not show for some people. I've now learned to make a correction for how I perceive it and others have confirmed that what looks slight 'tail-down' for me is actually correct to everyone else :rolleyes:

With any luck, you can minimise the differences in the two formats so you can have good musically involving sessions with either. Mixing the two in one continuous session I'm not sure - depends on the speakers and room as to which comes first quite often I think ;)

[Bonky]

The Nima isn't a bass powerhouse of an arm as I recall and modern AT's *to me* major on clarity up top rather than seismic bass. Lowering the arm a little won't do any harm and I remember how an ARO/Koetsu totally changed the bass with seemingly a minor adjustment here in the downwards direction. It's difficult to get a sense of 'parallel' on a tonearm and a mm or two up at the back may not show for some people. I've now learned to make a correction for how I perceive it and others have confirmed that what looks slight 'tail-down' for me is actually correct to everyone else :rolleyes:

With any luck, you can minimise the differences in the two formats so you can have good musically involving sessions with either. Mixing the two in one continuous session I'm not sure - depends on the speakers and room as to which comes first quite often I think ;)

Thanks David; understood.

[Bonky]

Marco,

A pity you posted this rather than to PM me.

I will send you a PM.

Richard

[Marco]

Hi Richard,

I wrote what I did because It was necessary. There are announcements posted all over this forum, making it blatantly clear that the company in question, or its products, must NOT be mentioned in any way whatsoever, so it's up to YOU (and everyone else here) to read those announcements/warnings and ABIDE by them.

"Not mentioned in any way whatsoever" (other than in system lists) is completely unambiguous language, so there is no margin for confusion! There have been a few people recently, not just you, who are trying their luck (and my patience) in mentioning what isn't allowed to be mentioned, and I've had enough.

So listen up, EVERYONE.... The very next person to 'ignore' the ruling about the company in question will be BANNED FOR SIX MONTHS, without any further warning. I do hope everyone is paying attention, because when we impose rules here, we insist on FULL compliance from all members. I'll be adding this message to the current announcement later.

Anyway, no more about the matter on this thread, and any of such will be removed without further warning. Let's get back on topic!

Marco.

P.S I'll reply to your PM later.

[Bonky]

Marco wrote: " Let's get back on topic!"

Yes please!

Marco.

"P.S I'll reply to your PM later."

Thank you.

Richard.

[Bonky]

One other thing to check is the arm position. Normally it's recommended to get the arm tube parallel to the deck so check it is first. If it is then try lowering the pivot end of the arm, this usually increases the bass. If the headshell end is lower this usually decreases bass, increases treble.


That's a wonderful tip. The bass is now much improved.

Very many thanks,

Richard

[DSJR]

That's a wonderful tip. The bass is now much improved.

Very many thanks,

Richard

Wot oi said too - glad it's helped you a bit.


With cartridges like this AT, I found that you can also fine tune the VTA with tracking weight. Even in the lowish compliance Linn Troika/Karma days, 1/10th gramme tracking force either way from the supposedly nominal 1.7g, was supposed to be similar to a 1.5mm approx. movement of the pillar up and down (this according to a senior Linn chap of the time).

I don't know how the AT33 models behave, but the OC9 used to need 1.75g tracking force for the first few hours of use, and then reducing to the recommended 1.5g or so thereafter. The nearest to the current 33's I've used was the limited edition OC30 and this was 'ballsier' right from the off!

For future reference on phono stages, in addition to the £500 approx. one I use here mostly now, I had lovely results with a Puresound P10 I tried once (price may be silly though and it is rather complex) and the E.A.R phono stages always had a warm silky *smoooooth* quality that may be too far the other way ;)

[Bonky]

"Quote Originally Posted by Bonky View Post
That's a wonderful tip. The bass is now much improved.

Very many thanks,

Richard

Wot oi said too - glad it's helped you a bit."

Yes, sorry, thanks David

[ianlenco]

That's a wonderful tip. The bass is now much improved.

Very many thanks,

Richard

Excellent, glad things are improving.

[Floyddroid]

I have been using the AT33 PTG for some time now and my experience of it is that as good as it is it can be a little lackluster. It certainly doesn't lack bass and differs from the majority of AT cartridges i have owned (of which there have been many) in the fact that it lacks the usual sparkle. It matters not a jot which phono stage you use you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear. How ever you attempt to adjust the tonearm or or fart around with the loading the AT33 is what it is. Very refined and wonderful with vocals but lacks scale. Have a listen to a different cartridge before you start spending tons of money on phono stages and the likes.
I know that my AT33 PTG is destined for my headphone system when funds become available for a replacement. Just thought i would add my twopeneth.