View Full Version : Tube vibration damping rings
Anyone use tube vibration damping rings? Make any difference?
Anyone recommend a seller for these items to fit ECC83 valves?
Bigman80
13-04-2018, 12:11
Anyone use tube vibration damping rings? Make any difference?
Anyone recommend a seller for these items to fit ECC83 valves?I do. I think they make a difference in terms of external vibrations etc. Look for rubber o rings. They are exactly the same but cost half the price.
I do. I think they make a difference in terms of external vibrations etc. Look for rubber o rings. They are exactly the same but cost half the price.
Cheers Oli.
Sherwood
13-04-2018, 12:15
I do. I think they make a difference in terms of external vibrations etc. Look for rubber o rings. They are exactly the same but cost half the price.
Shouldn't that be silicone rubber rather than rubber for the greater heat tolerance? I think there are some o rings that are not up to the job of damping valves.
Geoff
Bigman80
13-04-2018, 12:16
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 252090224502
These are what I bought. I wasn't aware I'd been swindled. They are about £3 for 50 from China!.
You just need the right size. I'll measure an ECC83 If I get chance.
Bigman80
13-04-2018, 12:16
Shouldn't that be silicone rather than rubber for the greater heat tolerance?
GeoffWell, yes but my valves don't get THAT hot for it to be an issue.
I have actually ordered some more expensive ones with 200oC melting point.:lol:
Bigman80
13-04-2018, 12:20
I have actually ordered some more expensive ones with 200oC melting point.[emoji38]Lmao. FFS Jim [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
Sherwood
13-04-2018, 12:29
Well, yes but my valves don't get THAT hot for it to be an issue.
Probably not an issue for an ECC83, but my EL34s get very toasty. I just played safe and bought the higher spec heat rating for all my valves.
Bigman80
13-04-2018, 12:31
Probably not an issue for an ECC83, but my EL34s get very toasty. I just played safe and bought the higher spec heat rating for all my valves.Yeah, better safe than sorry. I did buy proper ones myself but quickly realised there was no difference between the cheap Chinese stuff as that's what they are. Just rebranded into "valve damping rings"
I am probably being ripped off again! They were £8 for 4 rings.
I was going to ask the self same question!
What difference do they make to the sound Oliver?
Bigman80
13-04-2018, 13:32
I was going to ask the self same question!
What difference do they make to the sound Oliver?It's only my opinion but when we first put the phonostage together, the cheap Chinese Transformer buzzed like hell. It was so bad I could actually hear it the back ground. We mounted it on a piece of absorbance board and things massively improved. The noise in the background got a lot better. I then put 3 damper rings on each valve and again, everything just sounded a lot cleaner. Resolution improved. I'm not suggesting that in well designed units, they will have the exact same impact but in my DIY phonostage, they certainly have contributed to a very clean and hi resolution sound.
I think they stop microphonics in theory and as Oliver has found they result in a cleaner sound.
Bigman80
13-04-2018, 14:27
I think they stop microphonics in theory and as Oliver has found they result in a cleaner sound.Thats it [emoji6] maybe reduce them rather than stop them entirely. They do work in that respect though.
Bigman80
13-04-2018, 15:54
Personally, I think they're useless. The problem is that the metal parts within the glass envelope can vibrate and ring and that is certainly audible, at least when the volume is cranked. The vibration comes up through the valve base, but damping the glass envelope has barely any effect on that. I know because I've conducted experiments to verify it.
The way to cure the problem with PCB-mounted valve bases is to suspend or float the PCB or couple it very lightly to the chassis. That works. I know because I've conducted experiments to verify it.
With chassis-mounted valve bases it's harder to deal with. One solution is to have the valve bases mounted to a floating sub-chassis, but that is really only an option if you're building from scratch or prepared to do some serious modding.
The good news is that the problem is mostly confined to the first stages of an amp, or more realistically the valves in a phonostage where the gain is very high. Yes, I think that vibration isolation is worth doing, but no, I don't think those things that simply damp the glass envelope do any good at all.I agree on suspending a pCB with some sort of suspension mount, on a Valve headlamp I tried, it was vital that this was done due to the gain as you say. The Damper rings are on the valves in my phonostage and that PCB is firmly fixed to the chassis. Think they do make a difference but can see the merits in take other preventative measures before hand.
Personally, I think they're useless. The problem is that the metal parts within the glass envelope can vibrate and ring and that is certainly audible, at least when the volume is cranked. The vibration comes up through the valve base, but damping the glass envelope has barely any effect on that. I know because I've conducted experiments to verify it.
The way to cure the problem with PCB-mounted valve bases is to suspend or float the PCB or couple it very lightly to the chassis. That works. I know because I've conducted experiments to verify it.
With chassis-mounted valve bases it's harder to deal with. One solution is to have the valve bases mounted to a floating sub-chassis, but that is really only an option if you're building from scratch or prepared to do some serious modding.
The good news is that the problem is mostly confined to the first stages of an amp, or more realistically the valves in a phonostage where the gain is very high. Yes, I think that vibration isolation is worth doing, but no, I don't think those things that simply damp the glass envelope do any good at all.
Anti-microphonic valve bases are available, especially for Noval valve bases: B9A and B7G.
Never got on with them James to be honest...
A set came with my 300B SET power amp, and felt they dulled the sound down.
After a bit of valve rolling I settled on NOs Tung Sol 5687s as my favourite signal valves, the sillicone rings damped the zing and excitment from the music, taking them off brought it back.
Stryder5
13-04-2018, 19:06
It's only my opinion but when we first put the phonostage together, the cheap Chinese Transformer buzzed like hell. It was so bad I could actually hear it the back ground. We mounted it on a piece of absorbance board and things massively improved. The noise in the background got a lot better. I then put 3 damper rings on each valve and again, everything just sounded a lot cleaner. Resolution improved. I'm not suggesting that in well designed units, they will have the exact same impact but in my DIY phonostage, they certainly have contributed to a very clean and hi resolution sound.
I think you should follow Firebottle's idea, string the transformer/valve amplifier/pcb to the ceiling :rofl:
Bigman80
13-04-2018, 19:09
I think you should follow Firebottle's idea, string the transformer/valve amplifier/pcb to the ceiling :rofl:Lmfao 🤣🤣🤣
I use some Golden Dragon tube dampers on the the two 12AX7s on my amp and also the tubes on my Phono stage.
On the amp they definitely reduce ringing and tighten the bass.
Shame you already bought some Jimbo as I could have dropped some in the post for you to try...
I bought some tube rings a week ago and popped them on last night. I was not expecting much and as with all things tweakable results can be negligible or positive or negative. I usually rant on how something has made a difference in detail but I thought that in order to give an idea how much of a difference they made I would rank them against other ancillary tweaks I have done in the past so you can see how much of an effect they had. All I would say is they were a positive effect.
So here they come in terms of effectiveness in the weird world of hifi tweaks.:) I am not including equipment in this list.
Valves
Isolation gizmos and platforms
IC Cables
Valve rings
Mains cables
Unswitched silver plated sockets
Fuses
brian2957
22-04-2018, 07:23
That's quite a substantial upgrade for very little money James . Do you have a link to the ones you bought please .
That's quite a substantial upgrade for very little money James . Do you have a link to the ones you bought please .
Here you go mate, not cheap but worth it. I am that impressed I am ordering more.:)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-X-DAMPER-VIBRA-SORB-BS310-TUBE-VALVE-RINGS-20MM-ECC83-12AX7-ECC82-12AU7-6N1P-/252090224520
the 396a is a mm wider over the ecc83, so are the rings pliant enough to stretch?
the 396a is a mm wider over the ecc83, so are the rings pliant enough to stretch?
They pop on perfectly Grant, just like a tight condom:):eek:
They pop on perfectly Grant, just like a tight condom:):eek:
cheers jim. just checking. :)
Firebottle
22-04-2018, 10:16
......depends on how big the willie is that you are waving :eyebrows:
Sorry couldn't resist, not that there is any of this on here :)
The effects of the tube rings on the Croft 25R performance were not subtle. I noticed that, with the rings applied: bass was tighter, cleaner, and more dynamic. Transient attacks were more coherent and high frequencies were more crisp and extended, but without a trace of hardness.
There was also improvement in the reproduction of low-level dynamics and tonality in vocals with a fuller 3D image. Some of the midrange muddiness disappeared and there was general cleaning up of detail and imaging.
Bigman80
22-04-2018, 11:13
The effects of the tube rings on the Croft 25R performance were not subtle. I noticed that, with the rings applied: bass was tighter, cleaner, and more dynamic. Transient attacks were more coherent and high frequencies were more crisp and extended, but without a trace of hardness.
There was also improvement in the reproduction of low-level dynamics and tonality in vocals with a fuller 3D image. Some of the midrange muddiness disappeared and there was general cleaning up of detail and imaging.Don't forget Jimbo, some folks will say it's "expectation bias" or "placebo effect" but if it is, that's two of us that are suffering [emoji6]
jandl100
22-04-2018, 12:00
Some valves are a lot more microphonic than others, and so would benefit from damping.
Try the finger-ping test! (If you dare. :lol:)
montesquieu
22-04-2018, 12:08
When I had a couple of DHT preamps that were quite microphonic I used Herbie's tianium tube dampers, they worked very well in reducing the feedback noise.
When I had an EAR V20 I was recommended to put a couple of little rubber tubes on each on (23 tubes each side) to tighten things up and I think that made a difference.
Never felt the need to use them otherwise. I still have a bunch in the bits box (Herbies are quite expensive by the time you get them over here) I should flog them off at some stage.
When I had a couple of DHT preamps that were quite microphonic I used Herbie's tianium tube dampers, they worked very well in reducing the feedback noise.
When I had an EAR V20 I was recommended to put a couple of little rubber tubes on each on (23 tubes each side) to tighten things up and I think that made a difference.
Never felt the need to use them otherwise. I still have a bunch in the bits box (Herbies are quite expensive by the time you get them over here) I should flog them off at some stage.
The Herbies are well thought of on the other side of the pond. The rubber type tube rings I am using seem to be high quality and I am very happy with the improvements they have made. Microphonic valves can mix in quite a lot of rubbish in a feedback loop and anything to prevent this is surely a good thing unless you like a bit of valve rattle!:)
Don't forget Jimbo, some folks will say it's "expectation bias" or "placebo effect" but if it is, that's two of us that are suffering [emoji6]
I am quite happy to say if something works or not in my system and I have another pair of ears sitting next to me to confer with. A lot of stuff has either made my system sound worse or simply done nothing (Oak cones for instance). I am a great believer in Isolating components from vibration and have been surprised at the difference applying various methods has done. I have never tried tube vibration damping rings so it was just a punt which happily has worked out for the better.
I must now consider getting those transformers out of my preamp.:lol:
Bigman80
22-04-2018, 13:04
I am quite happy to say if something works or not in my system and I have another pair of ears sitting next to me to confer with. A lot of stuff has either made my system sound worse or simply done nothing (Oak cones for instance). I am a great believer in Isolating components from vibration and have been surprised at the difference applying various methods has done. I have never tried tube vibration damping rings so it was just a punt which happily has worked out for the better.
I must now consider getting those transformers out of my preamp.[emoji38]Thats absolutely the right next step imho. I will soon be doing that with the phonostage.
Firebottle
22-04-2018, 14:21
[QUOTE=JI must now consider getting those transformers out of my preamp.:lol:[/QUOTE]
:callme:
Jimbo, I'm with you on this one.
The Golden Dragon Rings made a very noticeable improvement on both my amp and phonostage 12AX7s.
I'd like to try some on my 6NS7s as well but not at full price.
They turn up quite regularly on the bay for half price used.
Jimbo, I'm with you on this one.
The Golden Dragon Rings made a very noticeable improvement on both my amp and phonostage 12AX7s.
I'd like to try some on my 6NS7s as well but not at full price.
They turn up quite regularly on the bay for half price used.
Hi Tony, still enjoying the VPI?
Yes, loving it!
Great sound and easy set to use.
I'm probably at the year stage now so need to lube the bearing.
I have no idea how to do it on the VPI so will have to google.
I'm running it with a Quintet Bronze via an AT630 SUT and into a tubed phono. Sound really dynamic and detailed.
Thanks for the headsup on this one!
Listening to the system tonight I have noticed a greater clarity to a lot of the recordings and better separation on information so vocals are now that much clearer. I can hear what the lyrics are without struggling.
The only change in my system - Tube vibration rings!
Got a couple on my dac valve
Bigman80
04-05-2018, 22:10
Careful! Such proclamations have been compared to witchcraft. [emoji6]
Glad you hear the effect to. I'm a big believer in "everything matters".
Listening to the system tonight I have noticed a greater clarity to a lot of the recordings and better separation on information so vocals are now that much clearer. I can hear what the lyrics are without struggling.
The only change in my system - Tube vibration rings!
There was a downside to the increased clarity - bloody clicks and pops sounded louder and more noticeable!
Yes Oli, I recon tube rings are witchcraft, like cables and fuses and....:):lol:
Bigman80
05-05-2018, 06:11
There was a downside to the increased clarity - bloody clicks and pops sounded louder and more noticeable!
Yes Oli, I recon tube rings are witchcraft, like cables and fuses and....:)[emoji38][emoji23]
Listening to the system tonight I have noticed a greater clarity to a lot of the recordings and better separation on information so vocals are now that much clearer. I can hear what the lyrics are without struggling.
The only change in my system - Tube vibration rings!
are you saying you were struggling to hear what the lyrics were before adding some rubber rings?
are you saying you were struggling to hear what the lyrics were before adding some rubber rings?
No, but they are even clearer now. Sometimes they could be obscured a little in the mix as it were but last night I noticed lyrics were easily intelligible. It's interesting that changing even small things in your system can have unknown consequences. Every piece of equipment no matter how big or small somehow manages to change your perception of what you hear, they draw your attention to different aspects in the music.
I might just add the noise floor was very low last night for some reason and ambient temperature in my room was perfect so these factors could also effect how my system sounded.
Later today it is going to sound dramatically different for sure with a Massive change happening.:eyebrows:
Firebottle
05-05-2018, 09:28
You putting Massive Attack on?
A bit of the Massive never hurt anybody. ;)
The big question is how many rings you have fitted?
Would valve dampers be better?
Like these - http://www.europeanaudioteam.com/en/eat-cool-damper-000012.html
A bit of the Massive never hurt anybody. ;)
The big question is how many rings you have fitted?
Would valve dampers be better?
Like these - http://www.europeanaudioteam.com/en/eat-cool-damper-000012.html
2 rings on each tube but can't decide if one or two sound better :lol:
Ever tried Herbie’s tube dampers?
Quite tempted to try some of the SS versions.
Ever tried Herbie’s tube dampers?
Quite tempted to try some of the SS versions.
I actually removed the tube dampers from my valves and damped the casework instead. Much better result!:)
I would like to try the Herbs tube dampers as you never know how anything works until you try and they get good reviews.
Three Ultrasonic SS-9 are on the way to me.
The Ultrasonic Rx (apparently) don’t make a massive difference, but have a higher temperature rating, which I don’t need.
Will be interesting to hear how you get on with those Kev.
Have you tried any damping material in the casework yet?
Not yet. I am debating between 2mm and 4mm, and trying to find a French based supplier.
Herbie is in the house. Arrived today, and had to pay €20 import tax and customs charges. Robbing bar stewards…
Herbie is in the house. Arrived today, and had to pay €20 import tax and customs charges. Robbing bar stewards…
Bloody hell that's steep.
€68.80 for the three shipped, and add on €20?
Roughly €30 each. They had better be good….
And in all honestly, I doubt I will notice a difference with or without them. :lol:
€68.80 for the three shipped, and add on €20?
Roughly €30 each. They had better be good….
And in all honestly, I doubt I will notice a difference with or without them. :lol:
:doh:
It is 20% VAT + a customs fee.
Surprisingly, they don’t make a massive difference, but I feel that the music sounds more detailed now.
Placebo effect? Maybe….
Will I be doing an A/B? Nope….
I had a late nice listening session last night using headphones, and I swear that I was hearing detail and separation of instruments I have not heard before. At almost €30 each (after shipping and import tax) they are expensive, but they are easy to fit, and seem to be a much better damper than the o-rings I was using before.
My tube dampers search is over. I am glad I only needed three!
How do these new dampers work?
Information and a picture are on the manufacturers website - https://herbiesaudiolab.com/products/ultrasonic-ss-damping-instrument
Ah yes I remember now, quite a different approach to the old rubber condom!
Exactly.
User feedback played a great part in my decision to purchase.
We also have Herbie’s opinion here - https://herbiesaudiolab.com/pages/herbies-tube-damper-comparison which was interesting to read.
And in my search for the best “new” 12AX7, they were also mentioned at the bottom of this piece - http://www.audiodrom.net/en/special-edition-reviews/117-the-best-12ax7-tubes-for-almost-no-money
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