HD 4K and soon 8K some home truths

[Jac Hawk]

As some of you know i work for a professional AV integrator, recently at an event one of our hardware suppliers was giving a workshop on HD 4K transmission and the short comings of higher resolutions.

The workshop itself was long winded and droned on a bit, however one thing that was interesting was the difference between HD and 4K, they had set up 2 i 55" Samsung screens, the same models just on the older HD and the other the 4K, both fed identical content just one in HD and the other 4K, the question they put to us was which was which, i was sat about 3 meters away and couldn't really tell the difference and the room of about 20 people was split almost 50 / 50 as to which was which, it was when you got much closer around a meter away that you could tell.

What was being demonstrated was screen size / resolution and viewing distance ratios, simply put the smaller the screen the closer you need to be to be able to see the difference between HD and 4K and in most homes unless you have a very big screen 75" or larger or you sit 2m or less away from your tv, you're hard pressed to tell the difference.

So why bother with 4K or 8K when it's released, well the picture quality is better, but as i've said you're only going to see that on a very large screen or if you sit incredibly close, the sort of people this actually benefits are draughtsmen using CAD and people that need to take accurate sizes from a image on a display, or when you need to display a very large image 75" or larger and the viewer is relatively close to the screen.

At the end of the day our tv's are getting larger, i'm actually considering buying a 84" screen myself (the kids think i'm mad) so i will see the benefit of 4K, but for most folks a 55" screen is more than big enough, to these people i would say unless you're in the market for a new tv, stick with what you've got, as i've said 4K and 8K when it's available do give a more detailed image but from normal viewing distances not as obvious as you might think. In reality moving up to 4K or higher helps manufacturers sell tv's, there's always someone that has to have the latest tech, but for the rest of us my advice for what it's worth is get 4K when you need a new tv not because you think you need 4K.

[Barry]

Since my TV is "state of the ark": a Mitsubishi 18" CRT, I'm looking at modern flat-screen OLED TVs. But what exactly is the difference between HD and 4K? HD talks about 1080i. Is that the number of lines, and is 4K also the number of lines, or is the number of pixels?

[Jac Hawk]

1080 refers to the amount of horizontal lines in 16:9 format, 4K is 4 times the resolution, in reality though 4K tv isn’t actually true 4K that’s why they put UHD next to the 4K logo, 4K tv is actually more like 3.5 K if that makes sense Barry.

OLED refers to the light source being used, modern LED tv is actually still an LCD display with the light being produced by an LED light source, if you’re looking for a new TV get a back lit rather than edge lit display, they’re a bit bulkier but give a better more even image.

[clap]

I'm itching to get oled but I know that the cost doesn't justify the upgrade from my Panasonic plasma / humax / onkyo receiver.

[Sherwood]

Since my TV is "state of the ark": a Mitsubishi 18" CRT, I'm looking at modern flat-screen OLED TVs. But what exactly is the difference between HD and 4K? HD talks about 1080i. Is that the number of lines, and is 4K also the number of lines, or is the number of pixels?

Roughly speaking 4k is four times the resultion of HD: i.e. double the number of pixels vertically and double the number horizontally over standard hd.

One of the best purchases I ever made is my AOC 32" 4k PC monitor. The resolution is fantastic thought the availability of superb 4k content online can be a distraction when I should be working. The ability to dial down the uv levels is also more restful on the eyes.

Geoff

[Barry]

Thanks Mike.

I normally sit and watch about 2 metre away from the screen, and since the normal acceptance viewing angle of the human eye is ~ 45 degree, should I go for a 65" screen?

[Sherwood]

Thanks Mike.

I normally sit and watch about 2 metre away from the screen, and since the normal acceptance viewing angle of the human eye is ~ 45 degree, should I go for a 65" screen?

This may be helpful https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-big-a-tv-should-i-buy/

[Barry]

This may be helpful https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-big-a-tv-should-i-buy/

Thanks Geoff. :)

[Jac Hawk]

Mate I’m looking at getting an 84 inch screen So I would say bigger the better, I sit about 4m away from my tv though, in any normal home 55 inch I would say is the sweet spot of sizes though.

[Sherwood]

Thanks Geoff. :)

If you went for the midpoint between the two methods at a viewing distance of 80" that would approximate to a 55" model (i.e. 80 * 0.7). I have been considering upgrading my TV and 55" seems also to be the sweet spot with regard to price for 4k models.

Geoff

[Gazjam]

Quite easy to see the 4K improvement on a 65” over 1080p from 8 feet away IMHO.
Theres a chart (somewhere) online showing screensize vs distance vs resolution.

Take with a pinch of salt though as always and try for yourself as usual.

[Macca]

This may be helpful https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-big-a-tv-should-i-buy/

I was going to get a 65 inch but chickened out at the last minute (plus it was quite a bit more money) and got a 55''. Turns out that according to the link I should have been looking at 90 inches. That would just be a wall of television! Which is tempting, I'll admit.

[Gazjam]

I was going to get a 65 inch but chickened out at the last minute (plus it was quite a bit more money) and got a 55''. Turns out that according to the link I should have been looking at 90 inches. That would just be a wall of television! Which is tempting, I'll admit.

Phoar!

[Macca]

Phoar!

Indeed!

[icehockeyboy]

I must admit to being a bit disappointed when I bought my smaller 43” 4K LG , having left my 46” HD Samsung back in the house as an incentive to the buyer of my property.

One thing I have just discovered though, like a lot of people my TV was mounted above my fireplace, which is quite tall, I thought that the quality was not as good as the Sammy, but having had a lot of building work done, i repositioned the set, at a much lower height, so instead of looking up at it, I now more or less look at it straight on, and you know what?
The apparent definition is way superior.

Worth considering doing what I did if you questioned the quality of your screen.

[Jac Hawk]

I think i've mentioned it in other posts but there are only 3 or 4 panel manufacturers, the Chinese company that owns Philips, the company that owns Sharp, LG and a Turkish company, Sony, Pana etc. don't actually make any screens just put their own chipsets and colour algorithms in and whack em together, makes me laugh

[Dr Winston O Boogie]

As some of you know i work for a professional AV integrator, recently at an event one of our hardware suppliers was giving a workshop on HD 4K transmission and the short comings of higher resolutions.

The workshop itself was long winded and droned on a bit, however one thing that was interesting was the difference between HD and 4K, they had set up 2 i 55" Samsung screens, the same models just on the older HD and the other the 4K, both fed identical content just one in HD and the other 4K, the question they put to us was which was which, i was sat about 3 meters away and couldn't really tell the difference and the room of about 20 people was split almost 50 / 50 as to which was which, it was when you got much closer around a meter away that you could tell.

What was being demonstrated was screen size / resolution and viewing distance ratios, simply put the smaller the screen the closer you need to be to be able to see the difference between HD and 4K and in most homes unless you have a very big screen 75" or larger or you sit 2m or less away from your tv, you're hard pressed to tell the difference.

So why bother with 4K or 8K when it's released, well the picture quality is better, but as i've said you're only going to see that on a very large screen or if you sit incredibly close, the sort of people this actually benefits are draughtsmen using CAD and people that need to take accurate sizes from a image on a display, or when you need to display a very large image 75" or larger and the viewer is relatively close to the screen.

At the end of the day our tv's are getting larger, i'm actually considering buying a 84" screen myself (the kids think i'm mad) so i will see the benefit of 4K, but for most folks a 55" screen is more than big enough, to these people i would say unless you're in the market for a new tv, stick with what you've got, as i've said 4K and 8K when it's available do give a more detailed image but from normal viewing distances not as obvious as you might think. In reality moving up to 4K or higher helps manufacturers sell tv's, there's always someone that has to have the latest tech, but for the rest of us my advice for what it's worth is get 4K when you need a new tv not because you think you need 4K.

It also depends on how the TV's were set up, were you viewing HDR content, were the TV's calibrated etc also the make of TV and tech being used LCD or OLED. I can see a prononnced difference at any size over 50".

[Jac Hawk]

It also depends on how the TV's were set up, were you viewing HDR content, were the TV's calibrated etc also the make of TV and tech being used LCD or OLED. I can see a prononnced difference at any size over 50".

The TV's were identical Professional screens used for digital signage both set up the same, by the way ALL TV's are LCD, LED and OLED is the light source that shines through the LCD display to give you the brightness, LED (light emitting diode) OLED (organic light emitting diode) OLED offers a cooler running more efficient light source than traditional LED. LED screens do exist basically each pixel is a single LED light source and are the screens you see next to the motorway or in a football arena.

[Dr Winston O Boogie]

The TV's were identical Professional screens used for digital signage both set up the same, by the way ALL TV's are LCD, LED and OLED is the light source that shines through the LCD display to give you the brightness, LED (light emitting diode) OLED (organic light emitting diode) OLED offers a cooler running more efficient light source than traditional LED. LED screens do exist basically each pixel is a single LED light source and are the screens you see next to the motorway or in a football arena.

Sorry OLED and LCD are a different tech. Were the TV's using the same settings and calibrated and what make. Also you say used for Digital Signage what exactly do you mean?

https://www.lg.com/uk/lgoled/technology.jsp#technology

[Jac Hawk]

Sorry OLED and LCD are a different tech. Were the TV's using the same settings and calibrated.

Yes both identical, and please explain the difference between OLED and LCD


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[Dr Winston O Boogie]

Yes both identical, and please explain the difference between OLED and LCD


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Just done that with my link.

If you contact Vincent Teoh @HDTVtest he will give you a more in-depth explanation. OLED is self-illuminating no backlight, so massive difference in contrast and black level over LCD, viewing angles are superb also.Bring in HDR also and it looks fantastic.

[Macca]

An OLED display works without a backlight because it emits visible light. Thus, it can display deep black levels and can be thinner and lighter than a liquid crystal display (LCD). In low ambient light conditions (such as a dark room), an OLED screen can achieve a higher contrast ratio than an LCD, regardless of whether the LCD uses cold cathode fluorescent lamps or an LED backlight.


Says Wikepidia

[Jac Hawk]

Mate it’s just the different way they make the light that shines through the colour that makes the picture, ffs I’ve been to LG and Samsung HQ in the UK, spoken to the tech guys there, seen their wallpaper thin screens 3 years ago and their transparent screens too, yes the picture is better with OLED as the light is more accurately manufactured and shone through the LCD colour part of the screen, blacks are better due to more accurate light management and the way the screens are made, but this is the important part, IF YOU DIDN’T HAVE THE LCD COLOUR PART YOU WOULD HAVE NO PICTURE


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[Dr Winston O Boogie]

Mate it’s just the different way they make the light that shines through the colour that makes the picture, ffs I’ve been to LG and Samsung HQ in the UK, spoken to the tech guys there, seen their wallpaper thin screens 3 years ago and their transparent screens too, yes the picture is better with OLED as the light is more accurately manufactured and shone through the LCD colour part of the screen, blacks are better due to more accurate light management and the way the screens are made, but this is the important part, IF YOU DIDN’T HAVE THE LCD COLOUR PART YOU WOULD HAVE NO PICTURE


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Sorry I think you have not understood the tech or my link. I have been involved with and calibrating TV's for many years now, also in constant touch with those who help to design the tech. As I say contact HDTVtest, they will help you better understand the tech.

We did a a few Shootouts both here and the US that I think are on (value electronics & HDTVtest) Youtube again some great information there.

Also try AVForums for great info.

[Jac Hawk]

I understand the tech just fine, you said LCD and OLED are different technologies, I’m saying that OLED uses the LCD to produce the colour just the same as LED tv’s do, but they utilise a better more efficient light source. If I’m wrong tell me how an OLED tv produces colour


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[Dr Winston O Boogie]

I understand the tech just fine, you said LCD and OLED are different technologies, I’m saying that OLED uses the LCD to produce the colour just the same as LED tv’s do, but they utilise a better more efficient light source. If I’m wrong tell me how an OLED tv produces colour


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There is no LCD in OLED tech, OLED is Organic Light Emitting Diodes and no backlight. That is a bit like saying PDP is the same as LCD

This might help

https://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-oleds-and-leps-work.html

[Jac Hawk]

Mate that explains the difference between LED and OLED nowhere does it say that OLED doesn’t use an LED element to produce the colour


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[Dr Winston O Boogie]

Mate that explains the difference between LED and OLED nowhere does it say that OLED doesn’t use an LED element to produce the colour


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LED and LCD are the same and are a tech separate from OLED. I have provided links explaining the tech to you and the fact you are confusing LCD with OLED, maybe you need to do a little more resarch or again contact the guys I mentioned for a more in depth explanasion.

Here is a basic explanasion also:

"LCD displays are millions of little colored dots laid out in front of a big light called a backlight. This backlight is what lights up the display and makes the colored dots visible. This method's drawback is that even if you have the entire display turn black, it still generates light. You can't make this kind of display “look” off while it's running. One good side of LCD is that it has better power consumption.

OLED displays are also millions of little colored dots. However, unlike LCD, every single dot generates its own source of light. This means that pixels that are black actually turn off. This makes it possible for a display to look like it's off, even if it's running. This is what makes the Always On Display of Samsung phones possible. This kind of display also typically has much better color contrast and looks much more vibrant than LCD displays. One downside is that OLED has higher power consumption."

[Jac Hawk]

You’re right that you can get OLED TVs that use no LCD in them, they are the roll up wallpaper ones from LG, however you’ll find that most OLED screens still use an LCD colour producing film in front on the OLED as it makes for a longer lasting more reliable product it also makes it cheaper to produce, to put it into perspective a 65” OLED will cost you about £2600 where as the wallpaper OLED is £6000


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[Dr Winston O Boogie]

You’re right that you can get OLED TVs that use no LCD in them, they are the roll up wallpaper ones from LG, however you’ll find that most OLED screens still use an LCD colour producing film in front on the OLED as it makes for a longer lasting more reliable product it also makes it cheaper to produce, to put it into perspective a 65” OLED will cost you about £2600 where as the wallpaper OLED is £6000


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Mate you are totaly ignoring my posts on the tech, there is no LCD involved in OLED tech. Colour producing filter, the colour is produced by the LCD or OLED?

[Gazjam]

Mate you are totaly ignoring my posts on the tech, there is no LCD involved in OLED tech. Colour producing filter, the colour is produced by the LCD or OLED?

Yup,
OLED is a completely different tech. than LED.

[struth]

I read somewhere that transmitted 4K is at about bluray level and hd is much lower than bluray.
Gives a good reason to go 4K if you take most from likes of netflix

[tapid]

would be interesting to compare modern 4k tv s to very expensive Pioneer Kuro plasma s of decade or so ago ?

[bumpy]

As an analytical Chemist I have a theory about OLED TVs.

Anything that has an organic component will change with time (ashes to ashes). As such the OLEDs will degrade with time. Initial impressive screen displays will become less so and be more susceptible to things like screen burn.

As such I avoided their purchase for my TV bought last week.

Just my theory, but I think OLED TVs will eventually follow curved screens and 3D TVs into the history books.

[Macca]

would be interesting to compare modern 4k tv s to very expensive Pioneer Kuro plasma s of decade or so ago ?

My friend has one of those Pioneers, 60 incher. Cost him stupid money back in about 2008. But it is still better than any of the latest LED, OLED jobs I have seen. It also heats his whole house.

[tapid]

My friend has one of those Pioneers, 60 incher. Cost him stupid money back in about 2008. But it is still better than any of the latest LED, OLED jobs I have seen. It also heats his whole house.

Hmm interesting. There s a 50 inch Pioneer plasma on eBay at the moment local to me thats got me pondering ?. Durability on something of that age could be an issue of course.

[Jac Hawk]

As an analytical Chemist I have a theory about OLED TVs.

Anything that has an organic component will change with time (ashes to ashes). As such the OLEDs will degrade with time. Initial impressive screen displays will become less so and be more susceptible to things like screen burn.

As such I avoided their purchase for my TV bought last week.

Just my theory, but I think OLED TVs will eventually follow curved screens and 3D TVs into the history books.

They do have a shorter life span than their LED equivalents, however I don’t think it’s a massive difference, the half life of a typical LED is about 5 years based on running it about 8 hours a day. My brother has got an OLED and I must say the blacks and overall contrast is much better than LED, it’s contrast range is way better too


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[bumpy]

They do have a shorter life span than their LED equivalents, however I don’t think it’s a massive difference, the half life of a typical LED is about 5 years based on running it about 8 hours a day. My brother has got an OLED and I must say the blacks and overall contrast is much better than LED, it’s contrast range is way better too


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Not way better than the best of the LEDs which are still cheaper than the OLEDs :)

[Gazjam]

Mike,
did you get your 84" panel?

[User211]

My friend has one of those Pioneers, 60 incher. Cost him stupid money back in about 2008. But it is still better than any of the latest LED, OLED jobs I have seen. It also heats his whole house.They were mind fuck good. Not 4K though.

I just bought a 65 inch Panasonic OLED introduced at £4K mid 2018 for £1500 from Richer Sounds interest free for 10 months.

It is excellent. Way better than my 55 inch LG OLED from 2016.

Might be the best value for money I have ever experienced on electronic goods. Check the feedback for it on the website. Everyone is very happy.

[Macca]

They were mind fuck good. Not 4K though.

I just bought a 65 inch Panasonic OLED introduced at £4K mid 2018 for £1500 from Richer Sounds interest free for 10 months.

It is excellent. Way better than my 55 inch LG OLED from 2016.

Might be the best value for money I have ever experienced on electronic goods. Check the feedback for it on the website. Everyone is very happy.

That looks excellent. I have a rule about not getting a new telly until the old telly breaks. My 2016 LG has done 2 years so probably another 8 years to go before I'm looking again. Lord knows what wonders they will have for me then.

My other rule is that each new one has to be bigger than the old one. :)

Unlike with music I'm not bothered by the absolute picture clarity and resolution. As long as I can see what's going on and I can hear what they are saying I'm good.

[scotty38]

This is in my office from the same sort of era as those Pioneers and the Fujitsus (I think). This is a Panasonic TH-50PF10 Plasma with 1920x1080 resolution and it still looks great fed with HD stuff.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50029466573_03ec8d4479_h.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49750262952_6aa2dab9f6_h.jpg

[Gazjam]

Sony OLED is good.

They don't manufacture the Panel, but Sony's picture processing makes the improvement.

[User211]

Sony OLED is good.

They don't manufacture the Panel, but Sony's picture processing makes the improvement.I would have bought one from Richer Sounds but it was 300 more and not reviewed as well by owners. I do like the way they use the screen for sound, though.

I wouldn't have given Panasonic a look in but I just couldn't ignore the owner feedback. The OS is amazing and feature packed. Just brimming with features and good ones at that. They also work. Not a bug so far that I have noticed. I'll find one or two eventually I bet.

Really impressive. Even the sound bar is good and it's included in the price. And colour accuracy is brilliant.

[Pharos]

I can't help thinking about getting a higher and higher quality spoon with which to eat S***.

Unless you're a blackhead or spot fetishist.