View Full Version : 10 audiophile myths busted
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 17:14
What's interesting to me is how strong emotional response to someone's opinion on audio usually tends to be. You know, if I say "this was the best coffee I've ever had, period!" no one's gonna get up and lose their shit about that. But if I say "this is the best cartridge I've ever heard in my life!" everyone and their uncle is all of a sudden up in the arms. They wanna hunt me down and hang me on the nearest tree.
Why is that? Do you ever wonder why is it that any other pursuit of personal pleasure makes other fellow humans shrug with indifference ("it takes all sorts, I suppose..."), but the moment we declare some opinion about audio gear (or, god forbid, about some guitar player), everyone is asking for our head on a stick!
Why is it a lie if I say that such-and-such a bottle of wine tastes better than some other bottle of wine? Is it because I am not a chemist? So if I say that such-and-such phono preamp sounds better than some other phono preamp, I'm automatically a liar because I'm not a physicist?
What happened to "one person's trash is another person's treasure"? What's the reason that adage is not acceptable in the world of audio reproduction? Because we are so kind hearted and want to protect the innocent and the gullible from predatory sales slime balls? Well, audio is not the only area where sales slime balls are preying on the gullible. Purveyors of coffee, alcohol, or any other consumer goods are equally guilty of lying, or at least sugar coating the truth. But for some reason, we, the righteous ones, let that slide. But no, when it comes to audio, we can't have that! We can't have some sleazy liar take advantage of some idiot with a fat wallet. Not on my watch, nah-ha!
To me, that's just stupid. It makes no sense whatsoever. Who are we pretending to protect, and why? Why are we acting like some self-proclaimed, self-appointed priesthood responsible for saving souls? What makes us the appointed keepers of the holy truth?
I view those impulses as symptoms of a sickness, religious feverishness bordering on lunacy. I have no respect for such 'healers'. Music is the realm of enjoyment, relaxation, feeling-good moments. Why let some frustrated maniacal fundamentalists spoil the enjoyment?
So I say fcuk the guy who enjoys torturing others by riding in on a high horse and 'mansplaining' to everyone all the audio lies they've been subjected to. To that person I say "get a life!".
I wanna spend my time on Yehova's green earth enjoying those fabulous performances that are captured for posterity on various physical, magnetic and optical media. And whatever is going to enhance those listening moments, I'm going to embrace it without any artificially inseminated guilt trips.
As you can see, I'm a subjectivist. I have repeatedly experienced that the exact same song, played on the exact same equipment, one day sounds so divine that it brings the waterworks, then some other day sounds lifeless and dull. Everything else remaining the same, Occam's Razor compels me to conclude that it's all a head trip.
Listening to music is a complex endeavour. Cannot be reduced to some measurable parameters that crude instruments can detect. It's the same as food -- a sophisticated chemistry lab cannot possibly analyze two different meals and declare one tastier than the other. If anyone attempts to do that, we would call them 'quacks', right? So why is it then that when it comes to listening to music, such 'quacks' are all of a sudden authorities on the subject? It's just pure untrammelled bullsh!t.
Firebottle
11-04-2018, 17:33
Nice one Alex, I'm with you all the way.
I've never tried it but I bet if you go on a coffee forum or a wine forum and start telling them what the best is then you'll probably get an argument. In fact I'd bet on it.
I think we all pass through three phases with any hobby
When we first get seriously into it we are evangelical.
That wears off and we try to use what experience we have to help the new people make good choices.
Finally we realise we are just shovelling shit against the tide and leave them to it.
Is there a hobby that doesn't apply to?
Aww, I was expecting a list of ''10 audiophile myths busted'' :( I'm gonna hunt you down and hang you from the nearest tree !! ;)
I totally agree with what you have said though and I'm sorry, I cannot explain it either.
This is the one and only Audio Forum I frequent because it is the most friendly and 'ego' free of them all as far as I am concerned.
All the rest are full of people exactly as you describe.
Is it because of money being spent? To be told that the Cartridge you've spent all your hard-earned Nelson's on isn't the best ever must make some people furious. Your analogy with wine is interesting. I do not appreciate wines I'm afraid but when you start to spend serious money on it does the same thing happen? To be told that the £100 (? is this expensive?) bottle of plonk you've just bought is considered vinegar by others, would this make you rant and rave and threaten the person who said it was awful ?
It is a strange world we live in indeed.
Jim
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 17:44
I've never tried it but I bet if you go on a coffee forum or a wine forum and start telling them what the best is then you'll probably get an argument. In fact I'd bet on it.
I think we all pass through three phases with any hobby
When we first get seriously into it we are evangelical.
That wears off and we try to use what experience we have to help the new people make good choices.
Finally we realise we are just shovelling shit against the tide and leave them to it.
Is there a hobby that doesn't apply to?
True. But it is very unlikely someone on some other forum would use hard science as the argument against someone's choice. Like, if I say I prefer the way medium roast tastes to the way dark roast tastes, it would be hard to say that lab measurements clearly point to the fact that there is no difference in the way these two roasts taste, or that science claims that dark roast tastes better.
In the world of audiophilia, a lot of the self-proclaimed 'preachers' tend to hide behind what they claim is hard scientific facts. Some even like to dazzle the unwased masses with mathematics. Bunch of losers...
I've never tried it but I bet if you go on a coffee forum or a wine forum and start telling them what the best is then you'll probably get an argument.
You better believe it ...
I used to work with a crazed coffee freak and there was no way you could enjoy a cappuccino in his presence .... his home coffee machine cost well over 2 grand and even the bean grinder was not far off that price. His hifi setup was fairly pants though :lol:
True. But it is very unlikely someone on some other forum would use hard science as the argument against someone's choice. Like, if I say I prefer the way medium roast tastes to the way dark roast tastes, it would be hard to say that lab measurements clearly point to the fact that there is no difference in the way these two roasts taste, or that science claims that dark roast tastes better.
..
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure they do chemical tests on wine so I doubt coffee gets excluded. Maybe someone knows?
And isn't 'Food Science' I thing? seem to remember you could do a degree in that at a Polytechnic.
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 17:51
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure they do chemical tests on wine so I doubt coffee gets excluded. Maybe someone knows?
And isn't 'Food Science' I thing? seem to remember you could do a degree in that at a Polytechnic.
Oh sure, no doubt, but it is much harder to call someone a loser for preferring some particular coffee roast by pointing at some chemical lab test results. But in the world of audio, people try to denigrate someone's preferences based on some mathematical equation, which is moronic.
Oh sure, no doubt, but it is much harder to call someone a loser for preferring some particular coffee roast by pointing at some chemical lab test results. But in the world of audio, people try to denigrate someone's preferences based on some mathematical equation, which is moronic.
I agree.
But more likely the science gets brought in because someone says ' I prefer the ABC because it uses 'X' technology making it sound better'. And then someone says, 'No, that's just marketing bullshit, X tech does nothing' and then goes on to show why with graphs and so forth.
If they'd just left it at 'I prefer the ABC' then no-one would care.
I'm sure there is bullshit in the world of wine and coffee too, but Audio has a distinct combination of bullshit and technology, I think that's what does it.
Pigmy Pony
11-04-2018, 18:02
I dunno, maybe it's a question of money. A coffee may be 2 or 3 quid, audio components hundreds, maybe thousands of pounds. My brother favours Starbucks, I prefer Café Nero, my oldest friend thinks they're all a ripoff and would rather buy a 90p brew from a butty shop. But the conversation didn't go beyond that statement.
There is generally much time, money and thought invested in purchasing hifi, so more at stake.
I find that when speaking to audio enthusiasts they are generally reasonable and receptive to other people's views, so maybe it depends how a statement is made. If you were to say 'cartridge x is the best cartridge I've ever heard', the response would probably be 'yes they are good, but I prefer cartridge y'. If however you said 'this is the best cartridge, full stop', you're asking for trouble.
If I come across someone overbearing and arrogant, I tend not to 'get into it' with them, as I'm no good with confrontations. I just take them off my Christmas card list and move on. :)
Apologies if I'm missing the point here.
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 18:04
I agree.
But more likely the science gets brought in because someone says ' I prefer the ABC because it uses 'X' technology making it sound better'. And then someone says, 'No, that's just marketing bullshit, X tech does nothing' and then goes on to show why with graphs and so forth.
If they'd just left it at 'I prefer the ABC' then no-one would care.
I'm sure there is bullshit in the world of wine and coffee too, but Audio has a distinct combination of bullshit and technology, I think that's what does it.
Yeah. If I were to say on any audio forum (except for the very civilized The Art of Sound, of course) that I personally prefer how vinyl sounds, there will immediately be a bunch of foaming at the mouth idiots who will let me know that I'm a fecking loser and that Nyquist theorem unambiguously shows how digital is superior and some such crap.
But thankfully there is no mathematical theorem that proves that kale tastes better than roasted chicken.
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 18:06
I dunno, maybe it's a question of money. A coffee may be 2 or 3 quid, audio components hundreds, maybe thousands of pounds. My brother favours Starbucks, I prefer Café Nero, my oldest friend thinks they're all a ripoff and would rather buy a 90p brew from a butty shop. But the conversation didn't go beyond that statement.
There is generally much time, money and thought invested in purchasing hifi, so more at stake.
I find that when speaking to audio enthusiasts they are generally reasonable and receptive to other people's views, so maybe it depends how a statement is made. If you were to say 'cartridge x is the best cartridge I've ever heard', the response would probably be 'yes they are good, but I prefer cartridge y'. If however you said 'this is the best cartridge, full stop', you're asking for trouble.
If I come across someone overbearing and arrogant, I tend not to 'get into it' with them, as I'm no good with confrontations. I just take them off my Christmas card list and move on. :)
Apologies if I'm missing the point here.
How about cars? They tend to be more expensive than your average hi fi gear, yet pundits are not throwing mathematical theorems at each other trying to prove how this model is superior to that model.
hornucopia
11-04-2018, 18:10
Nah. BOTH coffee taste AND hi-fi sound depend on how many joints you've smoked beforehand.
And the next time is NEVER the same....)-:
With regard to the original post.....the best guitar player is Eddie Van Halen.
No backchats, no crosskings, no nowt.....end of.
Say otherwise and invite death.
P.s....i'm a EVH (as he's known to his friends) fan.
NIGE.
Pigmy Pony
11-04-2018, 18:20
Nah. BOTH coffee taste AND hi-fi sound depend on how many joints you've smoked beforehand.
And the next time is NEVER the same....)-:
Yes but it's been scientifically proven that 'cheese' is best, and people who prefer 'skunk' are tossers...
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 18:24
With regard to the original post.....the best guitar player is Eddie Van Halen.
No backchats, no crosskings, no nowt.....end of.
Say otherwise and invite death.
P.s....i'm a EVH (as he's known to his friends) fan.
NIGE.
It's okay to have your favourite guitar player. What is NOT okay is to criticize my fav guitar player. You will invoke my endless wrath if you dare do so!
Pigmy Pony
11-04-2018, 18:26
How about cars? They tend to be more expensive than your average hi fi gear, yet pundits are not throwing mathematical theorems at each other trying to prove how this model is superior to that model.
I bet if you went to a Ferrari owners club meeting, they'd be slagging Lamborghini owners no end...
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 18:27
Yes but it's been scientifically proven that 'cheese' is best, and people who prefer 'skunk' are tossers...
Ah yes, the famous Einstein cheesy theory.
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 18:38
Aww, I was expecting a list of ''10 audiophile myths busted'' :( I'm gonna hunt you down and hang you from the nearest tree !! ;)
I totally agree with what you have said though and I'm sorry, I cannot explain it either.
This is the one and only Audio Forum I frequent because it is the most friendly and 'ego' free of them all as far as I am concerned.
All the rest are full of people exactly as you describe.
Is it because of money being spent? To be told that the Cartridge you've spent all your hard-earned Nelson's on isn't the best ever must make some people furious. Your analogy with wine is interesting. I do not appreciate wines I'm afraid but when you start to spend serious money on it does the same thing happen? To be told that the £100 (? is this expensive?) bottle of plonk you've just bought is considered vinegar by others, would this make you rant and rave and threaten the person who said it was awful ?
It is a strange world we live in indeed.
Jim
Yeah, I don't think it's about money. Look at cars -- some models sell in hundreds of thousands of dollars, and yet no one is up in the arms if a guy says he prefers Lamborghinis to Ferraris. Good for you, douchebag, and I envy you with all my might. But I'm not gonna risk looking like a complete religious fanatic by trying to educate you on all the lies car manufacturers are hoisting upon you.
Yes, cars can also be reduced down to laws of physics, yet we all seem fine with someone's choice of their favourite automobile. We're not trying to protect them from manipulative car salesmen. Only in audio do we feel the urge to save some poor souls from the evil manipulative manufacturers.
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 18:40
You better believe it ...
I used to work with a crazed coffee freak and there was no way you could enjoy a cappuccino in his presence .... his home coffee machine cost well over 2 grand and even the bean grinder was not far off that price. His hifi setup was fairly pants though :lol:
But was he, out of the goodness of his heart, trying to protect you from the evil and manipulative espresso machine manufacturers? Was he trying to bust all the espresso makers myths?
Bigman80
11-04-2018, 19:19
I realised a while back that whilst everyone has an opinion based on experience, knowledge etc, not everyone shares the same taste. This makes any advice on equipment choices you're given, a 50/50 as to whether it'll work out for you. It's important to find people whose taste is similar to your own. There are folk here whose advice is spot on for me and others who I sometimes wonder what they are actually listening to. Take Quad amps for instance, I hate their sound but they are massively popular and highly rated. I tried a few and none made any impression other than to take it out asap. Doesn't mean they are shat, just that I don't like them. I love Vintage Japanese hifi but theres a crowd who hate it. Align yourself with people who have a similar taste and you'll be fine. Ignore the detractors too.
It's spot on where you wrote about people being on their high horse. Regardless of experience, sometimes what's right for you just doesn't work for someone else.
This is a good forum and it's moderated to keep it that way. Well done all.
Good post OP.
PS, as good as EVH is I'm afraid Jimi Hendrix rules and always will. [emoji6]
What the feck has gone wrong with this country, gone to the bleedin dogs it has.
What on earth is wrong with a good cup of strong tea.
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 19:26
What the feck has gone wrong with this country, gone to the bleedin dogs it has.
What on earth is wrong with a good cup of strong tea.
Well, for starters, devious and manipulative tea manufacturers are praying on the weak minded and gullible and selling them some fecking leaves that grow all around us. Pity the gullible idiots who pay for that shite.
But was he, out of the goodness of his heart, trying to protect you from the evil and manipulative espresso machine manufacturers? Was he trying to bust all the espresso makers myths?
You bet he was - and there are plenty of forums out there where you will find coffee zealots galore trying to convert you to their faith and decrying all manner of heinous sins committed against the holy bean by the foul mechanics of shoddy manufacturer' products. If you ain't got a burr grinder, you ain't grinding!! ... and not only that, the burrs MUST be ceramic - none of your cheap cast iron shit!!!
Yes, cars can also be reduced down to laws of physics, yet we all seem fine with someone's choice of their favourite automobile. We're not trying to protect them from manipulative car salesmen. Only in audio do we feel the urge to save some poor souls from the evil manipulative manufacturers.
Nah - having spent some time in the early days of 't interweb on car forums I can safely assure you that your 'argument' is a bit of a crock.
As with everything - opinions are like arseholes....
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 20:03
You bet he was - and there are plenty of forums out there where you will find coffee zealots galore trying to convert you to their faith and decrying all manner of heinous sins committed against the holy bean by the foul mechanics of shoddy manufacturer' products. If you ain't got a burr grinder, you ain't grinding!! ... and not only that, the burrs MUST be ceramic - none of your cheap cast iron shit!!!
Any science behind those opinions?
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 20:04
Nah - having spent some time in the early days of 't interweb on car forums I can safely assure you that your 'argument' is a bit of a crock.
As with everything - opinions are like arseholes....
Yes, you have one, but you haven't given us any examples.
Pigmy Pony
11-04-2018, 20:46
I'm told by someone who ought to know, that in Australia you are a Ford man or a Holden Man.
Not sure if opinions are as polarised in this country, and I don't care-my next motor will probably run off batteries, be driveable on the pavements and have a top speed of 6mph.
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 21:40
I realised a while back that whilst everyone has an opinion based on experience, knowledge etc, not everyone shares the same taste. This makes any advice on equipment choices you're given, a 50/50 as to whether it'll work out for you. It's important to find people whose taste is similar to your own. There are folk here whose advice is spot on for me and others who I sometimes wonder what they are actually listening to. Take Quad amps for instance, I hate their sound but they are massively popular and highly rated. I tried a few and none made any impression other than to take it out asap. Doesn't mean they are shat, just that I don't like them. I love Vintage Japanese hifi but theres a crowd who hate it. Align yourself with people who have a similar taste and you'll be fine. Ignore the detractors too.
It's spot on where you wrote about people being on their high horse. Regardless of experience, sometimes what's right for you just doesn't work for someone else.
This is a good forum and it's moderated to keep it that way. Well done all.
Good post OP.
PS, as good as EVH is I'm afraid Jimi Hendrix rules and always will. [emoji6]
My hero is Yngwie Malmsteen. And the reason I prefer vinyl is because only on vinyl can you actually hear Yngwie's playing properly. That's because his shredding is so fast that notes fall between the 1s and 0s cracks on digital, and only a continuous groove of an LP can faithfully store all his amazing licks.
We are all individual because of our formative years, those experiences being very varied, and also a part of our sensibility and sensitivity development.
We bond with our Hi-Fi, it is not just a utility with a cold functionality, but the subjects of the art itself are contrastingly often very emotional and dear to us. We risk conflating this with the equipment itself, (association, and even transference).
The bonding is an investment of our inner selves, our 'souls' which can make us prone to feel abused if others do not appreciate what has to us become precious through listening experience.
The artistic nature of the material is a separate domain from the Hi-Fi which we want to perfectly reveal the art, (to be objective, (transparent), don't we?), and this is a functional thing, not art, although engineering is an art.
When we engage with the art our egos are in potential threat from others with different sensitivities if they do not empathise, and we feel vulnerable to discreditation, invalidation or dismissal of what we hold dear, and this may make us more ready to be defensive and 'on guard'.
I hope we would only try to advise others when we see an obvious mistake about which we are confident, and even them with a humble approach.
Car ads show clearly what bollocks is involved in the psychology, Hi-Fi sales blurb is much more difficult to refute/invalidate, and their functionality is easier to validate, with cars the subjective areas perhaps less significant.
Sherwood
11-04-2018, 22:10
I think it is important to differentiate between two types of statement.
Type A: "This is the best sounding hifi in the world at this price".
Type B: "This is the best sounding hifi I have heard at this price".
Yes, it is all about the impossibility of refuting subjective statements of worth or what economists refer to as individual comparisons of utility (i.e. personal subjective assessments of worth or value).
Sound quality is a multidimensional variable that cannot be measured objectively on some arbitrary index, though many magazine reviews attempt exactly this by awarding a score of 82% or similar (82% of what?).
One cannot challenge a Type B statement because it is the subjective assessment of the individual listener and therefore true for that person (even if not true for anyone else).
One cannot defend a Type A statement because it is impossible to objectively score SQ (even if there may be widespread agreement that a particular system sounds extremely good on many parameters).
In the end, it is all about opinion!
Geoff
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 22:17
I think it is important to differentiate between two types of statement.
Type A: "This is the best sounding hifi in the world at this price".
Type B: "This is the best sounding hifi I have heard at this price".
Yes, it is all about the impossibility of refuting subjective statements of worth or what economists refer to as individual comparisons of utility (i.e. personal subjective assessments of worth or value).
Sound quality is a multidimensional variable that cannot be measured objectively on some arbitrary index, though many magazine reviews attempt exactly this by awarding a score of 82% or similar (82% of what?).
One cannot challenge a Type B statement because it is the subjective assessment of the individual listener and therefore true for that person (even if not true for anyone else).
One cannot defend a Type A statement because it is impossible to objectively score SQ (even if there may be widespread agreement that a particular system sounds extremely good on many parameters).
In the end, it is all about opinion!
Geoff
Another thing that is difficult (impossible?) to prove/dispute is the so-called synergy. So while some component manages to knock your socks off in your particular configuration (including your speaker placements and your room treatments), in my environment that same component may actually make everything sound worse. So then what? We butt heads, you say it's the greatest thing at that price level, I disagree and accuse you of being deaf. And the feud then continues...
I've never been evangelical in my feelings about hifi; if it works for me, that's enough. I know full well it might not work for somebody (or anybody) else, because they don't have my room, my ears, or my taste in music. A few years down the line, I might get bored with it and go for something entirely different, anyway.
I really don't understand all the angst and bitterness on forums defending one's own tastes in hifi, or attacking someone else's. I mean, it's not like someone's going to come round and take your equipment away because you've made the 'wrong' choice (unless your choice involved over-stretching your credit and the finance company's confiscating it).
I dunno. Maybe it's having children that gives me something more important to think about than a bunch of boxes and wires. Enjoy what you have, and don't worry what anyone else thinks.
magiccarpetride
11-04-2018, 22:45
I've never been evangelical in my feelings about hifi; if it works for me, that's enough. I know full well it might not work for somebody (or anybody) else, because they don't have my room, my ears, or my taste in music. A few years down the line, I might get bored with it and go for something entirely different, anyway.
I really don't understand all the angst and bitterness on forums defending one's own tastes in hifi, or attacking someone else's. I mean, it's not like someone's going to come round and take your equipment away because you've made the 'wrong' choice (unless your choice involved over-stretching your credit and the finance company's confiscating it).
I dunno. Maybe it's having children that gives me something more important to think about than a bunch of boxes and wires. Enjoy what you have, and don't worry what anyone else thinks.
That's the absolute best attitude. Where things start to get a bit messy is when someone is asking for a piece of advice, not necessarily looking to pick up a fight. Then, if they follow some advice but it turns out that it does not work for them, maybe that's where the bitterness sets in? There may be some residual resentment after spending a lot of money and not getting what one has been promised?
That's the absolute best attitude. Where things start to get a bit messy is when someone is asking for a piece of advice, not necessarily looking to pick up a fight. Then, if they follow some advice but it turns out that it does not work for them, maybe that's where the bitterness sets in? There may be some residual resentment after spending a lot of money and not getting what one has been promised?
That's why I'm sparing with advice, and hedge it round with 'it works great in my system, but ...' and 'you really need to try it before buying it'. I'm actually reluctant to sell things in case the buyer doesn't like them!
walpurgis
11-04-2018, 22:53
I'm actually reluctant to sell things in case the buyer doesn't like them!
That's funny. I'm a bit the same! :)
I don't really like knocking a bit of Hi-Fi gear, even if I know it's crap, 'cos I know somebody out there will think it's wonderful.
Sherwood
11-04-2018, 23:00
That's why I'm sparing with advice, and hedge it round with 'it works great in my system, but ...' and 'you really need to try it before buying it'. I'm actually reluctant to sell things in case the buyer doesn't like them!
I would never buy something on advice alone, but good advice can be helpful in making a shortlist for personal evaluation. However, I spend a lot of time in selecting my hifi components and have had to wade through a lot of "well reviewed crap" to find the right system.
I guess the moral of this is that not all advice is equal or aligned to one's own tastes and preferences.
Geoff
When it comes to sport I do not enjoy the areas where they are scored by a panel of judges (diving, figure skating etc).
Prefer sports where it is against the clock or they have to put something in a net (running, jumping, rugby, basketball etc)
Same with music/hifi. We all hear things differently. If someone says something sounds good (to them) then fine and I might find it and have a listen myself (who knows, I might like it) - but I would not go out of my way to poo poo them.
I know what I like, I know the sound I like and would not force my opinion on anyone as I do not see the point.
An acquaintance of mine many years ago who was a musician (well played the guitar very well and had been in a group) told me that I cannot comment on hifi or music as I had never been in a band or played an instrument............. dick.
We can all appreciate sounds generated from equipment, whether that is from hifi or lowfi and who has the right to say that our opinions are wrong? Not me for sure.
magiccarpetride
12-04-2018, 02:26
I would never buy something on advice alone, but good advice can be helpful in making a shortlist for personal evaluation. However, I spend a lot of time in selecting my hifi components and have had to wade through a lot of "well reviewed crap" to find the right system.
I guess the moral of this is that not all advice is equal or aligned to one's own tastes and preferences.
Geoff
Yeah, that's very true. Even if you visit a friend's place and hear their system and really like it, doesn't necessarily mean that similar system will sound equally good in your house. Sound reproduction chain is very finicky and despite many claims, still quite an unknown phenomenon, so it takes time and patience to build a good home hi fi.
I almost stopped auditioning gear in the stores, because I found that it all sounds completely different once you bring it home. I remember auditioning Castle speakers (that was ages ago) and being mesmerized by the way they rendered drum kit. Bought the pair, brought it home, and most of the sparkle and sizzle that I was hearing in the store were absent on my system. But because the speakers were used, the seller refused to take them back, so I got stuck with them for a while (managed to get rid of them thanks to the allmighty craigslist).
You bet he was - and there are plenty of forums out there where you will find coffee zealots galore trying to convert you to their faith and decrying all manner of heinous sins committed against the holy bean by the foul mechanics of shoddy manufacturer' products. If you ain't got a burr grinder, you ain't grinding!! ... and not only that, the burrs MUST be ceramic - none of your cheap cast iron shit!!!
If you fon’t Have a burr grinder, then you are not grinding. You need burrs to grind.
The actual discussion is conical vs flat burrs. Cast iron burrs are perfectly acceptable, more so if titanium coated. ;)
walpurgis
12-04-2018, 07:52
Does a jar of Tesco instant qualify?
If you fon’t Have a burr grinder, then you are not grinding. You need burrs to grind.
Nope - apparently there's more than one way to skin the proverbial:
https://www.homegrounds.co/how-to-grind-coffee-without-a-grinder/
"From a basic perspective, a burr coffee grinder and a food processor do the same thing: they shred big stuff into little stuff. Yet, how they go about it makes a world of difference in coffee land."
Hi Alex,
Good thread :)
In the world of audiophilia, a lot of the self-proclaimed 'preachers' tend to hide behind what they claim is hard scientific facts. Some even like to dazzle the unwased masses with mathematics. Bunch of losers...
Lol... We are in full agreement! It's also one of the worst of my bête noire. Consider though, that those you're referring to are doing it simply to appease their own sensibilities, and thus make themselves feel better, not necessarily because they think that you're completely wrong...
The fact is [and experience bears this out], many objectivists can't handle (subjective) opinions being expressed in audio that defy their 'scientific teaching', or what logic 'established wisdom' apparently dictates, so far better simply to pooh-pooh it, than entertain the notion that what's being stated might be right, and that conversely what science (physics) apparently states is true, might be wrong - or more likely in many of these instances, not telling the whole story!
We've been here before. It's a classic case of cognitive dissonance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Essentially, many objectivists can't handle the mental discomfort of considering that their scientific belief system is fallible, and with it, exposing to scrutiny, and possibly proving as fallacy, what they've always automatically accepted as fact, so worry not, it's THEIR problem, not yours!!;)
Marco.
reason to use slow burrs is not to burn the delicate oils in coffee. a good hand grinder goes slowest but is a lot of work. you wouldnt want to grind a pound of it at once. adding things like sugar is allowed but it will change the experience from drinking coffee to drinking sugared coffee...
i add a bit of vanilla personally as i like it. so not a true coffeephile
Sure, but that's not what Alex was saying. I stand by everything I've just written, based on the main premise of his opening post. He dislikes the arrogant and blinkered mentality (as outlined) of the people he's referring to, as do I, and that can apply to ANY subject, coffee, hi-fi or whatever - simples! :)
Marco.
reason to use slow burrs is not to burn the delicate oils in coffee. a good hand grinder goes slowest but is a lot of work.
Exactly ;)
I have a hand grinder that uses burrs; bought after checking out opinion on coffee forums (fora) about which of the many options was best.
Opinions were as sharply divided as any hifi discussion about belt v direct-drive TTs ... and quite a few posters used 'science' to back up their views :lol:
Photography is another hobby where the internet gives voice to a whole gamut of opinion on issues ranging from the self-same 'analogue v digital' debate to whether a phone camera is actually a camera at all or worthy of a 'true' photographer. Again, 'scientific' arguments often raise their head..
The idea posed by the OP that hifi is somehow 'exclusive' or 'unique' in this respect is (IMV) completely unfounded.
Sherwood
12-04-2018, 09:50
This simply sidesteps the basic issue - that coffee is simply a matter of preference whereas hi-fi has a clearly defined objective. Whether or not the currently accepted scientific measurement techniques are valid isn't the point. The point is that accuracy isn't a matter of personal preference.
Surely the cd vs vinyl debate suggests that it is. If you cannot reliably measure accuracy on a cardinal scale then accuracy is not an objective parameter!
Geoff
Exactly ;)
I have a hand grinder that uses burrs; bought after checking out opinion on coffee forums (fora) about which of the many options was best.
Opinions were as sharply divided as any hifi discussion about belt v direct-drive TTs ... and quite a few posters used 'science' to back up their views :lol:
Photography is another hobby where the internet gives voice to a whole gamut of opinion on issues ranging from the self-same 'analogue v digital' debate to whether a phone camera is actually a camera at all or worthy of a 'true' photographer. Again, 'scientific' arguments often raise their head..
The idea posed by the OP that hifi is somehow 'exclusive' or 'unique' in this respect is (IMV) completely unfounded.
the other reason i forgot to mention is grain size uniformity. most important, as you want it small for espresso, but an espresso grade is no use in a coffee press etc...a chopper of the equiv of a kitchen blender will give various different sized grains, mostly burnt, and bitter.
so there is science in there, it just depends on how much of it is needed, and how much is superfluousness...if thats a word
Sherwood
12-04-2018, 10:13
For me, accuracy remains the goal. How to measure it or assess it is another matter. Dismissing the goal of accuracy is simply giving yourself carte blanche to argue about preferences.
I agree that accuracy is important but it is clearly not a goal for all. Just look at the large number of systems that sell on the basis of bloated bass heavy speakers and sledgehammer graphic equalisers. People like what they like!
Geoff
If you cannot reliably measure accuracy on a cardinal scale then accuracy is not an objective parameter!
Precisely.
Achieving accuracy, with anything [essentially performing a task as well as it can possibly be done], is undoubtedly a laudable aim, and something that one should always strive to achieve.
However, it's not always possible, certainly in areas of audio where we don't always know *exactly* what to measure, in order to successfully identify the existence a particular phenomenon [or deny it], so in that instance, one can only apply an educated guess as to what is 'accurate'.
Therefore, considering that accuracy is not a given, it is subsequently not always a realistic goal to have - so strive for it, yes, but understand that what you've ultimately achieved, in actuality (despite what measurements say), might not be accurate.
Marco.
Just look at the large number of systems that sell on the basis of bloated bass heavy speakers and sledgehammer graphic equalisers.
Indeed, but that's not hi-fi - and if you're into that type of sound, then you really shouldn't be posting on a forum such as this;)
Marco.
Frazeur1
12-04-2018, 10:56
Marco's post #53 sums a lot up rather nicely, thank-you! Interesting post OP!
It's interesting to note that many previous 'flat-earthers' are now using Japanese DD turntables, valve amps, and big Tannoy speakers. Were they wrong before, and right now? Were their flat-earth systems more accurate, or less accurate than what they are now using? Or have they just switched from one 'flavour' of sound to another?
Clive197
12-04-2018, 11:10
What is accuracy? Does anybody know? Is it what a piano sounds like in my room because I’ve never tried that, so how would I know that it’s accurate?
Frazeur1
12-04-2018, 11:14
Joe, I have wondered about this too at times, mainly when I have gone back and looked at various reviewers systems and how they have changed focus over the course of time(some in hardly any time at all). Then I step back and think about my own journey and realize for myself, I can enjoy many different types of "flavours", maybe it is mood, maybe other things. I think the main thing is, other than the talk about accuracy and all that business, it is more about what each one of us enjoys out of our own setup, and in that, is there really a right or wrong? Maybe, but it is really up to each of us individually to make that call within our own system. I think too, all of this should be fun and not so painful as some seem to want to make it, myself included at times.
What is accuracy? Does anybody know? Is it what a piano sounds like in my room because I’ve never tried that, so how would I know that it’s accurate?
Accuracy, hi-fidelity in the true sense of the word, means accurate reproduction of the recording not the accurate reproduction of live instruments. The recording may have captured a sound very close to live instruments, or it may not, but that is irrelevant when it comes to playback.
A subtle but important difference that many overlook in their quest for what is 'accurate'.
Sherwood
12-04-2018, 11:32
Indeed, but that's not hi-fi - and if you're into that type of sound, then you really shouldn't be posting on a forum such as this;)
Marco.
You have misrepresented my post. What I said was that accuracy is obviously not an objective for everyone. I used hyperbole to demonstrate this in the extreme.
However, even within this "elite" forum, there are those who advocate and praise equipment that is clearly not accurate, and that they like this equipment precisely beacuse it is not accurate. Personally, I cannot understand the interest in speakers from the 60s and 70s that have an overly warm and obviously coloured sound and a limited high frequency response. I nonetheless accept that is what those users like: it's just not for me. Having said that, I still have a Linn LP12 and over 1,000 albums even though I recognise the colouration in vinyl reproduction.
Geoff
It's interesting to note that many previous 'flat-earthers' are now using Japanese DD turntables, valve amps, and big Tannoy speakers. Were they wrong before, and right now? Were their flat-earth systems more accurate, or less accurate than what they are now using? Or have they just switched from one 'flavour' of sound to another?
An interesting question. The reason for that transition, as far as I'm concerned [although I was never a 'flat-earther in the true sense of the word], is simply due to a state of evolution, i.e. my system and preferences having evolved through time, as a result of learning how to achieve a better sound (based on my criteria for such), which is as Macca says, getting as close as possible to accurately reproducing the recording.
In my opinion (and that of others whose ears I trust), the system I have now does that markedly better than the one I had 10 years ago. It's all about making genuine progress, and TBH, if your system of 10 years ago is better than the one you've got now, then you haven't made much progress!;)
Marco.
Joe, I have wondered about this too at times, mainly when I have gone back and looked at various reviewers systems and how they have changed focus over the course of time(some in hardly any time at all). Then I step back and think about my own journey and realize for myself, I can enjoy many different types of "flavours", maybe it is mood, maybe other things. I think the main thing is, other than the talk about accuracy and all that business, it is more about what each one of us enjoys out of our own setup, and in that, is there really a right or wrong? Maybe, but it is really up to each of us individually to make that call within our own system. I think too, all of this should be fun and not so painful as some seem to want to make it, myself included at times.
I've been from SS to valves and back again. Each does its 'thing', and each has upsides and downsides. Given the vagaries of room shapes and sizes, and individuals' acuity (or otherwise) of hearing, and it's just plain daft to think that one size will ever fit all. And although I don't believe that systems should favour one musical genre over another, a system that suits the needs of someone who listens mainly to small-scale classical music may well not be suitable for a metal or reggae fan.
You have misrepresented my post. What I said was that accuracy is obviously not an objective for everyone. I used hyperbole to demonstrate this in the extreme.
Lol - no, I simply quoted the bit I wanted to expand upon.
However, even within this "elite" forum, there are those who advocate and praise equipment that is clearly not accurate, and that they like this equipment precisely beacuse it is not accurate.
In terms of the bit in bold, who says so, and why?
Ultimately, it's all about enjoying what you've got, even if it isn't 'accurate', but I'd argue that the true audiophiles among us will always STRIVE (there's that word again) to achieve the type of accuracy Macca has outlined, which is faithfulness to source recording [count me in].
Personally, I cannot understand the interest in speakers from the 60s and 70s that have an overly warm and obviously coloured sound and a limited high frequency response.
Lol - you obviously haven't heard what really GOOD vintage speakers can do, when properly sorted!:D
Martin, do my 1960s Tannoys sound "warm and coloured"? And while we're at it, define "coloured"?;)
Marco.
Beobloke
12-04-2018, 11:43
What is accuracy? Does anybody know? Is it what a piano sounds like in my room because I’ve never tried that, so how would I know that it’s accurate?
I recently measured the accuracy of my system and it came out as 47.6, which I'm delighted with.
I could explain how I did it but you lot wouldn't understand...
Sherwood
12-04-2018, 11:46
What is accuracy? Does anybody know? Is it what a piano sounds like in my room because I’ve never tried that, so how would I know that it’s accurate?
Exactly! It is also important to note that accuracy has many dimensions, not just tonal accuracy. Accuracy is also about dynamics and transient response and multiple other parameters. I have owned Rogers LS3/5a speakers for many years and these are widely accepted as being accurate reproducers of the human voice and many acoustic instruments. Of coure they are not at all accurate in terms of dynamics and lower frequency reproduction.
I listen to live music regularly and I doubt very much if many "audiophiles" could live with a highly accurate hifi system in a domestic setting. Too many houses in the UK have very poor acoustic isolation to operate hifi with realistic dynamics even though systems with better dynamics can be operated at lower average volume levels.
Geoff
Lol - no, I simply quoted the bit I wanted to expand upon.
In terms of the bit in bold, who says so, and why?
Ultimately, it's all about enjoying what you've got, even if it isn't 'accurate', but I'd argue that the true audiophiles among us will always STRIVE (there's that word again) to achieve the type of accuracy Macca has outlined, which is faithfulness to source recording [count me in].
Lol - you obviously haven't heard what really GOOD vintage speakers can do, when properly sorted!:D
Martin, do my 1960s Tannoys sound "warm and coloured"? And while we're at it, define "coloured"?;)
Marco.
No they don't, although I suspect they could do with different sources and/or amplification. And I could probably get my ultra-modern JM Lab speakers to sound like that too if I made the right/wrong upstream choices.
Lets be clear with this. No-one cares whether someone else's system sounds accurate or it doesn't. It's their system to do their listening on and they can have it sounding any way they damn well please.
On the other hand if I have a listen to someone's system and they say 'My system is very accurate in its reproduction' when it clearly isn't, then that is a subject for debate.
How do you know if a system is accurate? Pretty easy. Play a wide variety of recordings (different music, different production values, analogue recordings from the '60s, and '70s, digital recordings from much later). Are the differences easy to spot or is it hard to differentiate between the character of an analogue recording from 1969 and a digital recording from 2010?
Forget whether or not it sounds 'good' for the moment. A system can sound 'good' with everything you play on it, that has nothing to do with accuracy. If you can't easily differentiate between the character of the recordings the system is not accurate, it is not 'hi-fi' in the strictest sense. Even if it is the best damn sound you ever heard.
mad-moon
12-04-2018, 12:12
I recently measured the accuracy of my system and it came out as 47.6, which I'm delighted with.
I could explain how I did it but you lot wouldn't understand...
Brilliant :lol:
Sherwood
12-04-2018, 12:26
Lol - no, I simply quoted the bit I wanted to expand upon.
In terms of the bit in bold, who says so, and why?
Ultimately, it's all about enjoying what you've got, even if it isn't 'accurate', but I'd argue that the true audiophiles among us will always STRIVE (there's that word again) to achieve the type of accuracy Macca has outlined, which is faithfulness to source recording [count me in].
Lol - you obviously haven't heard what really GOOD vintage speakers can do, when properly sorted!:D
Martin, do my 1960s Tannoys sound "warm and coloured"? And while we're at it, define "coloured"?;)
Marco.
I am not sure why you would think I have not heard well set up vintage speakers. The original QUAD ESL was my first experience of good quality hifi (as part of a fiend's full QUAD system with Michell Transcriptor TT) and I bought my LS3/5a speakers because they offered some of the mid-range clarity of the QUADs at a lower price. However, both are flawed in terms of tonal accuracy. Both have limited bass extension and the LS3/5a has that upper bass hump. The Rogers are coloured in this respect, but many like them because of this colouration, not in spite of it. I would say the same is true of many speakers of that era. For example, I am very found of Wharfedale Lintons and MS Pageants but they are clearly not as tonally accurate as some other speakers from that era (e.g. Harbeths, Spendors etc). I would rate the Tannoys as accurate but they are and always were high end products. My point is that tonal accuracy (amongst other parameters) is often subjugated to the sonic preferences of the listener not because they cannot hear the "colouration" but because they like it!
Geoff
Fantastic writeup Alex, you are very good with words. And I have learned so much about coffee!
I think part of the reason Audio is so, “Judgmental”,
Is the way it grew up. Way back when hi end was really taking off, I used to read about 3 or 4 magazines on the subject. Remember those Stereophile mags that were like little paperback books? I read them cover to cover. And all of the magazines were dedicated to the science! To finding the Truth! To reach for the holy grail of accuracy. They stood equipment up against each other every month! “Oh, my amp beat your amp last month”. And they had the ultimate list! If your gear isn’t on this list, then it can’t be good! And even rated it A, B, C, D. You certainly couldn’t stand to live with a class C piece could you? I was caught up in all that, you had to have a recording of acoustic instruments in a show you attended so you can know if your system sounds like the real thing! But I’m way past all that, now, I judge my stereo solely on its ability to evoke emotion. Is that accurate? Probably not, but it is spooky real at times.
Personally I’ve never been one to trash anyone else’s system. When I hear, “This is the best cartridge I’ve heard!”, I think, “Damn I want one!”, and the next day someone else will say the same thing about another cartridge and I’ll want that one too! I have heard a few systems, and my very first impression is to think, “Wow! That is so different from my system?”, but 5 minutes later I am totally into it! I’ve only heard a few hi end systems that actually sounded bad. And even then, I held my tongue.
Striving for accuracy is something for designers and manufacturers to do, and I’ll just enjoy the gear that sends me. The biggest variable is the human ear. The physical ear on the outside of your head has a lot to do what how things sound. And it is quite obvious that every ear is different, and the insides are just as different as the outside. I know a sound man who is going deaf, he cranks the treble up so high it’ll cut your head off, but it sounds great to him! And that doesn’t even take into account personal tastes. With all those things well known, it is as you say, the competitive nature of people to be the best! Own the best! And for that to happen, yours can’t be best.
Russell
George47
12-04-2018, 14:44
Interesting topic. I wonder if part of it is the basic science used is quite easy to learn and then people can quote numbers to each other. So a few measurements and you are away. Therefore, if your hifi does not measure as having ultra-low distortion it must add distortion and is not as good as mine that has ultra-low distortion. The fact you have ultra- low distortion because of enormous feedback (which has destroyed the dynamics) is irrelevant because the distortion is very low. I can now Lord it over you as there is a measurement that proves it. But why is it done in audio? For cars the science is complicated and measurements describing a car involves lots of measurements and understanding.
For audio, some believe the original Williamson measurements from Wireless World of the 50s apply and SQ=FR+Noise+ Distortion. It is easy. Good numbers = accurate hifi. Problem is that some of the better measuring audio sounds flat, undynamic and a little boring.
We seem to be stuck with a few measurements that do not describe sound quality that well. Nearly all SS amps meet these simple requirements but SS amps do not sound the same. So some brave souls actually use the audio for its main purpose, playing music. Wow, that is brave. Run to the solace of the measurements quick and attack all others who do not do this. It is of interest to manufacturers for QA purposes but users? I doubt measurements actually help at all and I am 97.3 sure of that.
Exactly! It is also important to note that accuracy has many dimensions, not just tonal accuracy. Accuracy is also about dynamics and transient response and multiple other parameters. I have owned Rogers LS3/5a speakers for many years and these are widely accepted as being accurate reproducers of the human voice and many acoustic instruments. Of coure they are not at all accurate in terms of dynamics and lower frequency reproduction.
Indeed, in that respect they're rather 'one-trick ponies': excellent at accurately reproducing speech (the human voice), but average to poor at everything else. You have to remember though, that LS3/5as were specifically designed for what they do well (as outlined), and for use in small BBC control vans, not full-range, in domestic settings.
I listen to live music regularly and I doubt very much if many "audiophiles" could live with a highly accurate hifi system in a domestic setting. Too many houses in the UK have very poor acoustic isolation to operate hifi with realistic dynamics even though systems with better dynamics can be operated at lower average volume levels.
As do I (so I know how real instruments and voices are supposed to sound), and I strive with my system, as far as possible, to reproduce realistic dynamics with recorded music, although no hi-fi system can ever fully replicate that created live, by real instruments. Therefore, for as much as my system is able to reproduce such, I can live with it, as I enjoy that type of vibrant and 'lifelike' sound.
Your last point above (about dynamics and lower listening levels) is good, and indeed one I brought up recently on another thread. It's the main reason why I can listen to music at very low levels, without feeling 'short changed' :)
Marco.
. I wonder if part of it is the basic science used is quite easy to learn and then people can quote numbers to each other. So a few measurements and you are away. Therefore, if your hifi does not measure as having ultra-low distortion it must add distortion and is not as good as mine that has ultra-low distortion. The fact you have ultra- low distortion because of enormous feedback (which has destroyed the dynamics) is irrelevant because the distortion is very low. I can now Lord it over you as there is a measurement that proves it. But why is it done in audio? For cars the science is complicated and measurements describing a car involves lots of measurements and understanding.
.
I'd say this is completely wrong. The science in hi-fi is complicated, no less so than cars. Not really sure how you've got to that conclusion?
No they don't, although I suspect they could do with different sources and/or amplification. And I could probably get my ultra-modern JM Lab speakers to sound like that too if I made the right/wrong upstream choices.
I don't get what you mean... I thought you liked the Sony CDP/DAC and Techy (including my amps), so why could the Tannoys "do with different sources and amps"?:hmm:
Also, I'd don't think you'd ever get any pair of tall floor-standing speakers to sound like big dual-concentrics, no matter what was happening upstream.
Lets be clear with this. No-one cares whether someone else's system sounds accurate or it doesn't. It's their system to do their listening on and they can have it sounding any way they damn well please.
Absolutely, and as far I know, no-one was saying any different. However, if accuracy, as you described earlier, is your bag (count me in), then you're entitled to say so. In any case, it was Andrew who brought up the issue of accuracy, so blame him!;)
How do you know if a system is accurate? Pretty easy. Play a wide variety of recordings (different music, different production values, analogue recordings from the '60s, and '70s, digital recordings from much later). Are the differences easy to spot or is it hard to differentiate between the character of an analogue recording from 1969 and a digital recording from 2010?
I think that's a reasonable way of assessing things, which is pretty much what we did when you visited. For me, it's also about using your experience in listening to live (un-amplified) music, to determine how successfully a hi-fi system can faithfully reproduce the sound of real instruments and voices.
In that respect, I'll generally only enjoy a system if it can make me suspend disbelief :)
Marco.
George47
12-04-2018, 17:06
I'd say this is completely wrong. The science in hi-fi is complicated, no less so than cars. Not really sure how you've got to that conclusion?
I agree but we are talking about some of the most aggressive objectivists. They use the basic measurements of THD, FR and noise. Those measurements are easy to measure and allows people to get into competitions on the best numbers. In fact, many companies play that game to show that this years model is better than last years. So if you are an aggressive objectivist then any amp with adequate values of those three items gives you a perfect amplifier and they say all those amps sound the same. But that is NOT what is heard.
However, hifi is more complex and those measurements are not of much use with modern SS amps. Go on a forum and say you use a valve amplifier and THD, noise and FR are quoted as reasons that they should not sound very good. If you say that the valve amplifer actually sounds better then the accusation is you like distortion and noise.
I don't get what you mean... I thought you liked the Sony CDP/DAC and Techy (including my amps), so why could the Tannoys "do with different sources and amps"?:hmm:
Also, I'd don't think you'd ever get any pair of tall floor-standing speakers to sound like big dual-concentrics, no matter what was happening upstream.
.
I was suggesting you can get pretty much any speaker to sound vintage by selection of the source and amps - and possibly cabling too. Your Tannoys don't sound vintage but stick, say, an original Quad 33/303 in front of them and you could get at least some of the way there. Likewise with speakers with modern voicing.
I agree but we are talking about some of the most aggressive objectivists. They use the basic measurements of THD, FR and noise. Those measurements are easy to measure and allows people to get into competitions on the best numbers. In fact, many companies play that game to show that this years model is better than last years. So if you are an aggressive objectivist then any amp with adequate values of those three items gives you a perfect amplifier and they say all those amps sound the same. But that is NOT what is heard.
However, hifi is more complex and those measurements are not of much use with modern SS amps. Go on a forum and say you use a valve amplifier and THD, noise and FR are quoted as reasons that they should not sound very good. If you say that the valve amplifer actually sounds better then the accusation is you like distortion and noise.
True but you only get that argument from rookie objectivists. Anyone whose been around the block knows it isn't that simple.
I was suggesting you can get pretty much any speaker to sound vintage by selection of the source and amps - and possibly cabling too. Your Tannoys don't sound vintage but stick, say, an original Quad 33/303 in front of them and you could get at least some of the way there.
Ok, I see what you're getting at now. However, that would simply be them [the Tannoys] being honest.
The point I was making earlier (I think to Sherwood, Geoff) is that vintage speakers don't *automatically* have to sound warm and coloured, and if you think differently, you've obviously never heard a good pair.
Marco.
magiccarpetride
12-04-2018, 18:40
On the topic of accuracy (very good topic, thanks for bringing it to the forefront): if I go and do a blood test, I'm very keen on being assured that the lab uses the best possible instruments to measure the parameters in my blood that my doctor is interested in. Basically, I want perfect accuracy in those measurements. Why? Because hey, it's my health we're talking about, I don't want to be misdiagnosed or mistreated.
If I sit down to listen to some music reproduction, I really don't care about that medical-level accuracy. But I do care about accuracy. So what accuracy are we talking about here? It's the accuracy in approximating how I'd like things to sound. Pay attention, the emphasis is on I!
I am the paying customer who wants to be delighted. I have certain biases, certain expectations. How did I get to those biases and expectations? That's nobody's business. Somehow, through my formative years, my education, my exposure to various musical events yadda yadda yadda I formed this particular musical palette. And I want my palette to be fed and satisfied.
I absolutely don't care about how did the performance actually sound in the recording studio. I also don't care about how did mixing and mastering engineers hear the recorded music as they were preparing it to be mass produced. All I care about is whether the sound I'll be hearing coming from the speakers will satisfy me.
So I want THAT level of accuracy! Of course, it is 100% subjective, and I am spending a lot of time and a lot of money chasing after that particular accuracy. But only I know in my mind what type of accuracy that is. No one else has a way of knowing.
It's similar to chasing after that ever elusive electric guitar tone. We buy different electric guitars, different amps, different stomp boxes and pedals, keep changing guitar strings, pickups, tweaking the fretboards, frets, amp speakers, etc. Each and every guitar player worth his salt knows exactly in their head what kind of a sound they're after, now the real challenge is the chase -- go get 'em!
Hi fi is no different. It's all about accuracy, but not some lame ass scientific accuracy -- accuracy in how seductively close you can make the system approximate the sound you have in your head. I want to hear that special quality in the cymbals that may or may not be how cymbals actually sound out there in wilderness. I don't care, I'm chasing after that quality in the comfort of my home. Who cares if, once I nail it, it sounds unrealistic? It sounds super real to me, and it's taking me to the audio nirvana.
magiccarpetride
12-04-2018, 18:51
Hi Alex,
Good thread :)
Lol... We are in full agreement! It's also one of the worst of my bête noire. Consider though, that those you're referring to are doing it simply to appease their own sensibilities, and thus make themselves feel better, not necessarily because they think that you're completely wrong...
The fact is [and experience bears this out], many objectivists can't handle (subjective) opinions being expressed in audio that defy their 'scientific teaching', or what logic 'established wisdom' apparently dictates, so far better simply to pooh-pooh it, than entertain the notion that what's being stated might be right, and that conversely what science (physics) apparently states is true, might be wrong - or more likely in many of these instances, not telling the whole story!
We've been here before. It's a classic case of cognitive dissonance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Essentially, many objectivists can't handle the mental discomfort of considering that their scientific belief system is fallible, and with it, exposing to scrutiny, and possibly proving as fallacy, what they've always automatically accepted as fact, so worry not, it's THEIR problem, not yours!!;)
Marco.
That's a great diagnosis, Marco! I just want to point out that it would incorrect to call those objectivists 'scientifically-minded'. I am a scientist by education and training, and the first thing you learn in your scientific training is that in order to be a good scientist, you need to be perfectly comfortable with publicly admitting that you don't know. Basically, scientists are people who start from the basic premise that they don't know anything, then formulate some hypotheses and then devise a plan on how to gather the data that will either prove or disprove those hypotheses. Either way, a scientist is fully satisfied. The only time scientists are alarmed is when they come across someone who claims that they know, truly know something. Such a person always gets labeled as 'charlatan' by the scientific community.
"Full range" or single driver loudspeakers are a prime example. The frequency response is seriously curtailed at both ends of the spectrum and sometimes, due to some eccentric cabinet design, there are weird effects going on in the midrange. They could hardly be described as accurate. That doesn't mean they can't be pleasant to listen to or have no merit whatsoever, just that they can't be considered accurate.
I don't necessarily disagree, but if you re-read the text I was referring to, from Geoff (Sherwood), which you also quoted:
However, even within this "elite" forum, there are those who advocate and praise equipment that is clearly not accurate, and that they like this equipment precisely because it is not accurate.
...I'm not sure that 'full range', single-driver speakers, are a good example of what the members of this "elite forum" use. Indeed, I can't think of anyone who has them :scratch:
I doubt that was what Geoff was referring to.
Marco.
Interesting topic. I wonder if part of it is the basic science used is quite easy to learn and then people can quote numbers to each other. So a few measurements and you are away. Therefore, if your hifi does not measure as having ultra-low distortion it must add distortion and is not as good as mine that has ultra-low distortion. The fact you have ultra- low distortion because of enormous feedback (which has destroyed the dynamics) is irrelevant because the distortion is very low. I can now Lord it over you as there is a measurement that proves it. But why is it done in audio? For cars the science is complicated and measurements describing a car involves lots of measurements and understanding.
For audio, some believe the original Williamson measurements from Wireless World of the 50s apply and SQ=FR+Noise+ Distortion. It is easy. Good numbers = accurate hifi. Problem is that some of the better measuring audio sounds flat, undynamic and a little boring.
We seem to be stuck with a few measurements that do not describe sound quality that well. Nearly all SS amps meet these simple requirements but SS amps do not sound the same. So some brave souls actually use the audio for its main purpose, playing music. Wow, that is brave. Run to the solace of the measurements quick and attack all others who do not do this. It is of interest to manufacturers for QA purposes but users? I doubt measurements actually help at all and I am 97.3 sure of that.
Haha - that's *so* true, George! Tell me, with that type of outlook, how did you survive for so long on the Wam, with SERGE?:eek::D;)
Marco.
I don't necessarily disagree, but if you re-read the text I was referring to, from Geoff (Sherwood), which you also quoted:
...I'm not sure that 'full range', single-driver speakers, are a good example of what the members of this "elite forum" use. Indeed, I can't think of anyone who has them :scratch:
I doubt that was what Geoff was referring to.
Marco.
think there are a few.
Sherwood
12-04-2018, 19:40
think there are a few.
Indeed, I never mentioned full-range single-driver units, nor were they what I had in mind.
Geoff
I'd say the most representative here would be Tannoy Dual Concentrics or some form of panel/electrostatic. That's where everyone eventually seems to end up when they've had enough swapping. Or in some cases they just went straight there in about 1973 and never saw (or heard) the need to change.
think there are a few.
Such as? Name them, please.
Marco.
Indeed, I never mentioned full-range single-driver units, nor were they what I had in mind.
So what did you have in mind? :)
Marco.
Such as? Name them, please.
Marco.
well there is me for a start ;)
walpurgis
12-04-2018, 20:18
I'd say the most representative here would be Tannoy Dual Concentrics or some form of panel/electrostatic. That's where everyone eventually seems to end up when they've had enough swapping. Or in some cases they just went straight there in about 1973 and never saw (or heard) the need to change.
Sounds about right to me.
I'd say the most representative here would be Tannoy Dual Concentrics or some form of panel/electrostatic..
That would be my view, but there also plenty of folks, like you, who use floorstanders of some description.
Marco.
That would be my view, but there also plenty of folks, like you, who use floorstanders of some description.
Marco.
At the moment but I'm buying some Tannoys as a final speaker. I've tried to find better for the money and I have failed.
well there is me for a start ;)
I didn't think your Telefunkens were single drivers.... Well, they don't sound overtly coloured to me (bearing in mind that ALL speakers are coloured to some degree) - they sounded very good.
Marco.
I didn't think your Telefunkens were single drivers.... Well, they don't sound overtly coloured to me (bearing in mind that ALL speakers are coloured to some degree) - they sounded very good.
Marco.
Twin drivers, but in series so still no x-over. Keeps the speed of the 10" paper driver but ups the anti with the 2. They sound better now I fixed the couple of issues when you were here last so a bit improved.
At the moment but I'm buying some Tannoys as a final speaker. I've tried to find better for the money and I have failed.
Really? That's news to me!:D;)
Some find it early, some late, some never...........
Marco.
I'd rather have some big JBLs but there's just no chance.
I agree but we are talking about some of the most aggressive objectivists. They use the basic measurements of THD, FR and noise. Those measurements are easy to measure and allows people to get into competitions on the best numbers. In fact, many companies play that game to show that this years model is better than last years. So if you are an aggressive objectivist then any amp with adequate values of those three items gives you a perfect amplifier and they say all those amps sound the same. But that is NOT what is heard.
However, hifi is more complex and those measurements are not of much use with modern SS amps. Go on a forum and say you use a valve amplifier and THD, noise and FR are quoted as reasons that they should not sound very good. If you say that the valve amplifer actually sounds better then the accusation is you like distortion and noise.
Once again, George, your post contains much truth - the last sentence in particular, as I've often been subjected to that rather ignorant assumption! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Indeed, I never mentioned full-range single-driver units, nor were they what I had in mind.
So what did you have in mind? :)
:popcorn::popcorn:
Marco.
Once again, George, your post contains much truth - the last sentence in particular, as I've often been subjected to that rather ignorant assumption! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Valve amps Ive had were all very good, noise wise. In fact i kinda wish I had a nice valve amp now, as my speakers would be great with one. Not to say the mono's Im using are not adequate, but the quality of top valve designs can produce an intoxicating brew.
magiccarpetride
12-04-2018, 22:42
Once again, George, your post contains much truth - the last sentence in particular, as I've often been subjected to that rather ignorant assumption! :rolleyes:
Marco.
When I mention how I like the sound of Denon DL-103, I tend to get the same response: "oh, so you like distorted sound?" Why is that?
walpurgis
12-04-2018, 22:44
Yes, a good valve amp can be quiet, even in balance and very transparent without obvious colouration. Not sure how that may equate with 'distortion and noise'.
walpurgis
12-04-2018, 22:49
When I mention how I like the sound of Denon DL-103, I tend to get the same response: "oh, so you like distorted sound?" Why is that?
I can understand that to an extent. Their resolution of high frequencies can be bettered, but apart from this they turn in a decent enough performance. I've owned a few of them.
magiccarpetride
12-04-2018, 23:07
I can understand that to an extent. Their resolution of high frequencies can be bettered, but apart from this they turn in a decent enough performance. I've owned a few of them.
I did notice graininess in the upper register with DL-103, but I explained it away with the fact that it is riding a sub-standard tonearm (Rega RB300). Haven't tried my DL-103 on my new Jelco yet...
Pretty much given up following the convolutions of this fairly pointless thread ... :lol:
I was waiting for the 10 Audiophile Myths to be named (and the consequent busting thereof) but I'm guessing that's a lost cause :rolleyes:
Myth #1,
“The stereo that measures best will sound the best”, - False
Myth #2,
“The only way to evaluate good stereo is with a recording of live acoustic music.”, -False
Myth #3,
“Dark Roast is the best coffee”, -True
Help me out guys.....
Russell
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 04:59
Myth #1,
“The stereo that measures best will sound the best”, - False
Myth #2,
“The only way to evaluate good stereo is with a recording of live acoustic music.”, -False
Myth #3,
“Dark Roast is the best coffee”, -True
Help me out guys.....
Russell
Myth #4: the closer your home hi fi can come to accurately reproducing the sound musicians and the recording crew heard in the studio, the better your system is. What a load of baloney, bollocks and bullshit! What a great way to drive some innocent naive chap to paranoia and alcoholism. There is no freaking way that anyone could ever know HOW it all sounded in the recording studio, nor how it all sounded to the mixing and mastering crew while it was getting prepared for mass production. So it's the most idiotic, stupidest audiophile myth on the planet.
But wait, there's more stupid audiophile idiocies... coming soon... stay tuned... don't change the dial... I repeat, don't adjust the dial...
Myth #4: the closer your home hi fi can come to accurately reproducing the sound musicians and the recording crew heard in the studio, the better your system is. What a load of baloney, bollocks and bullshit! What a great way to drive some innocent naive chap to paranoia and alcoholism. There is no freaking way that anyone could ever know HOW it all sounded in the recording studio, nor how it all sounded to the mixing and mastering crew while it was getting prepared for mass production. So it's the most idiotic, stupidest audiophile myth on the planet.
But wait, there's more stupid audiophile idiocies... coming soon... stay tuned... don't change the dial... I repeat, don't adjust the dial...
Nice one!
Russ
Myth #4: the closer your home hi fi can come to accurately reproducing the sound musicians and the recording crew heard in the studio, the better your system is. What a load of baloney, bollocks and bullshit! What a great way to drive some innocent naive chap to paranoia and alcoholism. There is no freaking way that anyone could ever know HOW it all sounded in the recording studio, nor how it all sounded to the mixing and mastering crew while it was getting prepared for mass production. So it's the most idiotic, stupidest audiophile myth on the planet.
.
What if you've actually had one of the musicians present with you when you play his album on your stereo? And he says 'That sounds like it did in the studio' or 'That sounds nothing like it did in the studio.'?
I have, and I got the latter response.
What if you've actually had one of the musicians present with you when you play his album on your stereo? And he says 'That sounds like it did in the studio' or 'That sounds nothing like it did in the studio.'?
I have, and I got the latter response.
Let's face it, most musicians are deaf after years/decades of exposure to loud music.
Pretty much given up following the convolutions of this fairly pointless thread ... :lol:
I was waiting for the 10 Audiophile Myths to be named (and the consequent busting thereof) but I'm guessing that's a lost cause :rolleyes:
Audiophile myth 5: hifi discussions are about matters of fundamental importance and must therefore be conducted with furrowed brows and gritted teeth.
Audiophile myth 6: it is possible to 'win' such discussions, with the result that those who disagreed with you will concede defeat, sell all their hifi, and buy exactly the same system as you own.
Audiophile myth 7: there is a clear, definite dividing line between useful accessories and foo, and everyone is capable of judging for themselves where that line should be drawn.
Audiophile myth 8: Shakespeare is boring.
walpurgis
13-04-2018, 08:00
Audiophile myth 6: it is possible to 'win' such discussions, with the result that those who disagreed with you will concede defeat, sell all their hifi, and buy exactly the same system as you own
That argument holds no water. It would be almost impossible to replicate my system! :)
What if you've actually had one of the musicians present with you when you play his album on your stereo? And he says 'That sounds like it did in the studio' or 'That sounds nothing like it did in the studio.'?
I have, and I got the latter response.
Yes, but his hearing is different to yours...he may also have been ill, or on medication, alcohol or bennys...lol
George47
13-04-2018, 08:10
Myths:
#1 Tannoys speakers are pipe and slippers False, they are one of the few speakers that can reproduce real dynamics and power.
#2 Valves are yesterday technology False. If you want to hear music then...
#3 Big powerful amps plus small speakers can make small-scale music sound real False, we are some way away from reproducing a simple guitar playing and as for a bass guitar with a small valve amp.
#4 Cable quality makes no difference False
Myth #1,
“The stereo that measures best will sound the best”, - False
Myth #2,
“The only way to evaluate good stereo is with a recording of live acoustic music.”, -False
Myth #3,
“Dark Roast is the best coffee”, -True
Help me out guys.....
Russell
No 3 is a real myth. Lighter coffee roast is better. More flavours
M
#2 Valves are yesterday technology False. If you want to hear music then...
... go to a concert.
I just want to point out that it would incorrect to call those objectivists 'scientifically-minded'. I am a scientist by education and training, and the first thing you learn in your scientific training is that in order to be a good scientist, you need to be perfectly comfortable with publicly admitting that you don't know.
Basically, scientists are people who start from the basic premise that they don't know anything, then formulate some hypotheses and then devise a plan on how to gather the data that will either prove or disprove those hypotheses.
Indeed, and that's how REAL scientists behave; it's the 'wannabee scientists' (read as blinkered objectivists, posing as self-appointed 'experts'), with huge unjustified egos, who populate (some would say infect) audio forums, and who think that they actually *know* something [in the way you describe], which are the problem.
Often the most talented people in the world are among the most humble, simply because they don't need to shout about their abilities. As the old saying goes: 'An empty vessel makes the most noise';)
Marco.
... go to a concert.
...acoustic only.
Marco.
...acoustic only.
Marco.
Obviously. Otherwise it'd be a gig.
Some folks call a concert a gig, and vice versa, incorrectly I know. Therefore, best not to assume one way or the other.
Marco.
Frazeur1
13-04-2018, 08:58
Audiophile Myth xx-Most of these threads end up being pointless overall, as we all do what we want to anyway! :)
Actually it has been an interesting read, as are most posts. And the above is probably truth and not myth...I am confused. More coffee...
Firebottle
13-04-2018, 09:06
Gotta keep the old grey matter ticking over or we'll all end up liking Bananarama :eyebrows: :doh:
Frazeur1
13-04-2018, 09:14
The tunes might have been lame, but the chicks were okay!
walpurgis
13-04-2018, 09:16
The tunes might have been lame, but the chicks were okay!
Keren was OK. The other two were a bit rough. Guess they're about sixty now!
Frazeur1
13-04-2018, 09:36
Geoff, strangely as I get older, my scale tends to slide upwards as well. Some 60 year olds are still hot...ugh, did I really just say that?
walpurgis
13-04-2018, 09:43
Some 60 year olds are still hot...ugh, did I really just say that?
I guess if the incontinence pants and zimmer frame don't put you off, go for it! :D
I guess if the incontinence pants and zimmer frame don't put you off, go for it! :D
Would never guess you had those kind of problems :lol:
Frazeur1
13-04-2018, 09:49
I guess if the incontinence pants and zimmer frame don't put you off, go for it! :D
Oh my! :doh:
walpurgis
13-04-2018, 09:52
Would never guess you had those kind of problems :lol:
It's easy to go off people. ;)
Sherwood
13-04-2018, 10:01
Keren was OK. The other two were a bit rough. Guess they're about sixty now!
They were never the same after Bingo left and they ditched the costumes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtD4mn9CeH4
As both Marco and I have said, we have in audio and in life also, to live with the tensions of lack of a stable final resolution, and accept that it is not all neat and tidy and 'put away'.
That, once accepted, removes the need for the neurotic espousing of a 'knowing better than everyone' stance, and the resulting polarised arguments, often propounded by the arrogant, (but deluded) 'objectivists who trample all over others' feelings.
The best academics are humble and self effacing, and they exhibit a real commitment to truth itself, rather than the role which they have adopted being for reasons of social status.
As both Marco and I have said, we have in audio and in life also, to live with the tensions of lack of a stable final resolution, and accept that it is not all neat and tidy and 'put away'.
You've seen my house then?
That, once accepted, removes the need for the neurotic espousing of a 'knowing better than everyone' stance, and the resulting polarised arguments, often propounded by the arrogant, (but deluded) 'objectivists who trample all over others' feelings.
As if 'Subjectivists' are not guilty of the same 'trampling' - please spare me ....
Beobloke
13-04-2018, 11:48
#2 Valves are yesterday technology False.
Strictly speaking, valves actually are "yesterday's technology". That doesnt mean to say, however, that they're not still technically relevant! ;)
I agree completely with your last para in post 133 Andrew, and I was surprised because he states he has had a scientific training.
speedracer
13-04-2018, 13:20
Interesting topic Alex, but name just one hobby, anyone at all & there will be as many opinions on how to do it correctly as there are people in the hobby. It fascinates me how many different paths there are that lead you to the common goal, & whilst I agree that accuracy is paramount to the goal of true high fidelity, I have heard many systems that sound very similar in some areas, but oceans apart in others. People like what they like, & in striving for the best possible sound one can achieve in their own listening room & budget, personal preferences mean we will tailor that sound to fit those preferences, I don't see how that can be avoided. I am aware that there are some people who will espouse they will only buy kit that measures well, & would never entertain the thought of buying something like a valve amp that sounds divine but measures badly by comparison. They genuinely think that amp defective, but that view makes no sense to me, indeed they can shove measurements in my face all day if they like but it wouldn't change my point of view with regards to building a system capable of moving me, & I don't consider it a form of bullying either, there are zealots in all walks of life & if their views are different to my own I either ignore them or let it wash over me, I don't care.
I sometimes wonder where all these alleged assertive, bullying objectivists hang out. No objectivist's ever tried to convince me that I 'should' be using one type of audio technology over another. OTOH there's plenty of subjectivists wishing to assert that theirs is the one true way to audio nirvana.
Sherwood
13-04-2018, 15:05
So it's all out (un)civil war between the subjectivists and the objectivists!
Fine , but I claim the feathery hat! :eyebrows:
George47
13-04-2018, 15:26
Audiophile Myth xx-Most of these threads end up being pointless overall, as we all do what we want to anyway! :)
Actually it has been an interesting read, as are most posts. And the above is probably truth and not myth...I am confused. More coffee...
Is that dark or light roast?:)
George47
13-04-2018, 15:29
Strictly speaking, valves actually are "yesterday's technology". That doesnt mean to say, however, that they're not still technically relevant! ;)
What in the way transistors aren't? :)
So it's all out (un)civil war between the subjectivists and the objectivists!
Fine , but I claim the feathery hat! :eyebrows:
... I'm off in search of windmills to tilt at :lol:
Frazeur1
13-04-2018, 16:27
Is that dark or light roast?:)
George, it is "shop" coffee, more like well used, burnt motor oil.
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 17:22
What if you've actually had one of the musicians present with you when you play his album on your stereo? And he says 'That sounds like it did in the studio' or 'That sounds nothing like it did in the studio.'?
I have, and I got the latter response.
Seeing is believing, and hearing is a bitch.
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 17:29
I sometimes wonder where all these alleged assertive, bullying objectivists hang out. No objectivist's ever tried to convince me that I 'should' be using one type of audio technology over another. OTOH there's plenty of subjectivists wishing to assert that theirs is the one true way to audio nirvana.
Try reading any discussion thread that claims how digital is superior to analog, or vice versa. Lots of 'objectivists' claims being thrown out, usually by people who listen to music with their eyes and their intellect, not with their ears.
Try reading any discussion thread that claims how digital is superior to analog, or vice versa. Lots of 'objectivists' claims being thrown out, usually by people who listen to music with their eyes and their intellect, not with their ears.
So in truth - you can't really give any concrete examples but just thought you'd run it up the flag pole.... :lol:
Sherwood
13-04-2018, 17:40
So in truth - you can't really give any concrete examples but just thought you'd run it up the flag pole.... :lol:
Surely that's a special flagpole and not any log! :rolleyes:
walpurgis
13-04-2018, 17:57
It's the AOS flagpole and reserved for celebrations and sombre occasions. I don't recall anybody asking if they could use it? :hmm:
;)
Pigmy Pony
13-04-2018, 18:31
Interesting topic Alex, but name just one hobby, anyone at all & there will be as many opinions on how to do it correctly as there are people in the hobby. It fascinates me how many different paths there are that lead you to the common goal, & whilst I agree that accuracy is paramount to the goal of true high fidelity, I have heard many systems that sound very similar in some areas, but oceans apart in others. People like what they like, & in striving for the best possible sound one can achieve in their own listening room & budget, personal preferences mean we will tailor that sound to fit those preferences, I don't see how that can be avoided. I am aware that there are some people who will espouse they will only buy kit that measures well, & would never entertain the thought of buying something like a valve amp that sounds divine but measures badly by comparison. They genuinely think that amp defective, but that view makes no sense to me, indeed they can shove measurements in my face all day if they like but it wouldn't change my point of view with regards to building a system capable of moving me, & I don't consider it a form of bullying either, there are zealots in all walks of life & if their views are different to my own I either ignore them or let it wash over me, I don't care.
Ok then Brook, here's a hobby...
Jigsaw puzzles.
!. corners
2. edges
3. fill it in
Of course the hardcore 'jiggers' will tell you that assembling the puzzle printed side down is the only way.
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 18:35
Ok then Brook, here's a hobby...
Jigsaw puzzles.
!. corners
2. edges
3. fill it in
Of course the hardcore 'jiggers' will tell you that assembling the puzzle printed side down is the only way.
There must be a subjectivist and an objectivist way to approach jigsaw puzzle challenges.
Pigmy Pony
13-04-2018, 19:00
I jumped in the pool because I thought the advanced swimmers had left.
But they're still here, and they've popped my water wings, :( So it's an early shower for me.
speedracer
13-04-2018, 19:18
Ok then Brook, here's a hobby...
Jigsaw puzzles.
!. corners
2. edges
3. fill it in
Of course the hardcore 'jiggers' will tell you that assembling the puzzle printed side down is the only way.
https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/231/of-these-five-approaches-to-starting-a-jigsaw-puzzle-which-one-is-fastest?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_rich_qa&utm_campaign=google_rich_qa
Pigmy Pony
13-04-2018, 19:34
Oh my God Brook, you're right, they're everywhere!
I'm going back to my old hobby of sitting on my arse and staring into space, surely there won't be opinions on that.
Although I find that if I tilt slightly, putting my weight on my right cheek and let one off, the accompanying eye-bulge enables me to see further...
George47
13-04-2018, 20:31
Oh my God Brook, you're right, they're everywhere!
I'm going back to my old hobby of sitting on my arse and staring into space, surely there won't be opinions on that.
Although I find that if I tilt slightly, putting my weight on my right cheek and let one off, the accompanying eye-bulge enables me to see further...
Sorry I disagree. You have provided no data on the distance you are staring at in either feet or metres. How did you measure the distance, tape measure or laser? What angle did you tilt at, did you measure it with a clinometer? How loud was the outgas in dB? How does it compare to the BS for outgassing? Anything below 85dB is inadequate
If you did not do any of those measurements then you have imagined it and you are totally deluded. Good grief man and I thought you were serious. Bloody amateur.
:):):)
Pigmy Pony
13-04-2018, 20:47
I have an assistant who handles the technical side of things. I cannot provide the data as she has taken it away for anal-ysis. She will then discuss her findings with her supervisor (pimp) and get back to me on Monday.
I won't have access to the findings until then as the supervisor works Saturday morning at Currys.
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 21:01
Sorry I disagree. You have provided no data on the distance you are staring at in either feet or metres. How did you measure the distance, tape measure or laser? What angle did you tilt at, did you measure it with a clinometer? How loud was the outgas in dB? How does it compare to the BS for outgassing? Anything below 85dB is inadequate
If you did not do any of those measurements then you have imagined it and you are totally deluded. Good grief man and I thought you were serious. Bloody amateur.
:):):)
I love how the threads I start always end up in the toilet ;) Says a lot about the originator, doesn't it?
As if 'Subjectivists' are not guilty of the same 'trampling' - please spare me ....
It happens, but IME, no where near as it does the other way round.
Marco.
Try reading any discussion thread that claims how digital is superior to analog, or vice versa. Lots of 'objectivists' claims being thrown out, usually by people who listen to music with their eyes and their intellect, not with their ears.
I have, for my sins, been on audio forums for 25 years now. From the start, there were two subjects guaranteed to lead to (virtual) punch-ups: a) digital versus vinyl, and b) whether expensive cables are worth the money. On one occasion on a Usenet hifi forum, one bloke in the US was all set to fly across the Atlantic to punch out the lights of someone in Europe who questioned his opinion.
There's a lot to be said for being a fence-sitter, because extreme black/white views, in audio or in life generally, are usually wrong. It's also why I tend not to blab on about the equipment I use; it gives people one less hook on which to hang their opinions,
Electric guitar tone is a matter of personal preference. There's a very wide palette of tones and any guitarist is free to try to create whatever tone they like. Why wouldn't they?
But to extend that same freedom of choice to a hi-fi system would be another thing altogether. To me, it simply wouldn't be hi-fi. Of course, anyone is free to do what they like, and if you want the bass guitar on your recordings to sound fat and bloated even though the bass guitarist who recorded it didn't, you're free to do whatever you want to create that. Just don't call it "high fidelity".
Me neither, simply because *by definition* it isn't! I also agree with everything else you've written.
Some folk like using graphic equalisers, in order to 'make some recordings more listenable', which is fine if that's what you like, but again don't call it hi-fi!:nono:
Marco.
I am aware that there are some people who will espouse they will only buy kit that measures well, & would never entertain the thought of buying something like a valve amp that sounds divine but measures badly by comparison.
I know where you're coming from (and largely agree with the rest of your post), but I assure you it's a fallacy that properly designed valve amps measure badly in comparison with SS amps; it simply depends on what you're measuring, and also how you choose to interpret the results;)
Plus, any valve amp that sounds "devine", for the right reasons [i.e. reproduces voices and instruments in a lifelike and natural way] rather than simply because its euphonic coloration is seductive, will almost certainly also measure well. Mine certainly does! :)
I've yet to hear a valve amp that measures poorly, sound good - that is 'good', for the right reasons, as outlined above.
Marco.
Enough of this gay banter.
Here's my ten Audiophile busted myths, take them or leave them. You'll probably leave them, Bad move but it's a free country (except it isn't):
1) You can overcome plaebco and expectation bias without listening blind . No you can't unless you are Jesus and have powers. (You're not Jesus).
2) High resolution digital is better. No it is just different mastering or if it is the same master and you still think it is better see 1) above.
3) There are things that matter in audio but we can't measure them yet. No, there really are not. There might be things we rarely measure or don't ever measure but there's no mystery science theatre going on.
4) Some equipment is better at conveying the 'emotion' of the musicians better. No it is probably just technically better and/or better engineered. There's no 'emotion' op amp or resistor you can buy. You'd think the Japanese would have invented it by now but they haven't ( see: Ken Ishiwata). And it's mostly in your mind and your mood at the time of listening anyway.
5) Speaker cable and interconnects can make a big difference. No they can't (see myth 1 above). At best they make a tiny difference.
6) All the really good kit is very expensive for good reasons. No it isn't, although I suppose it depends what you mean by expensive. You can't make anything good on the cheap. But a £10K item of kit is at most just 500 quid worth of parts once the maker, distributor, dealer and HMRC (the VAT) have had their cut. That's scary when you think about it. If you are capable of building your own equipment you are laughing. Wish I was.
7) There are a lot of poor recordings. No there are not unless your collection is mostly tapes of your band recorded in the garage on a Sharp ghetto-blaster. If you find any professional recording, from any era, sounding unlistenable, that's a problem with your system. A good system will always convey the intent of a recording even if it is not a Diana Krall album.
Which neatly brings us to
8) Diana Krall albums are worth listening to. No they are not. I don't think an explanation is necessary. If you don't know what I mean then you probably didn't read this far anyway.
9)A good test for a system is a painstakingly superb recording of a woman singing while a bloke hits a block of wood with a stick. No it isn't, that will sound good on an Amstrad. A good test for a system is 'Thin Lizzy: Live And Dangerous' at generous SPL. When you are next at a show and they are playing the woman/block of wood thing, ask them to put on the Lizzy at volume. See how many will. Obviously let the block of wood thing finish first before you ask.
10) You can't knock it until you have tried it, no matter how wacky it is. Oh yes I can. Cable lifters, crystals, those things that look a bit like lecterns that you stick around the room to 'define the listening space', Peter Belt tweaks, colouring your fuses with a marker pen, special bowls you put on the speakers... there's a million more. See busted myth 1 and read a book on human psychology. Or at least skim-read it.
walpurgis
13-04-2018, 21:42
:sofa:
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 21:43
Enough of this gay banter.
Here's my ten Audiophile busted myths, take them or leave them. You'll probably leave them, Bad move but it's a free country (except it isn't):
1) You can overcome plaebco and expectation bias without listening blind . No you can't unless you are Jesus and have powers. (You're not Jesus).
2) High resolution digital is better. No it is just different mastering or if it is the same master and you still think it is better see 1) above.
3) There are things that matter in audio but we can't measure them yet. No, there really are not. There might be things we rarely measure or don't ever measure but there's no mystery science theatre going on.
4) Some equipment is better at conveying the 'emotion' of the musicians better. No it is probably just technically better and/or better engineered. There's no 'emotion' op amp or resistor you can buy. You'd think the Japanese would have invented it by now but they haven't ( see: Ken Ishiwata). And it's mostly in your mind and your mood at the time of listening anyway.
5) Speaker cable and interconnects can make a big difference. No they can't (see myth 1 above). At best they make a tiny difference.
6) All the really good kit is very expensive for good reasons. No it isn't, although I suppose it depends what you mean by expensive. You can't make anything good on the cheap. But a £10K item of kit is at most just 500 quid worth of parts once the maker, distributor, dealer and HMRC (the VAT) have had their cut. That's scary when you think about it. If you are capable of building your own equipment you are laughing. Wish I was.
7) There are a lot of poor recordings. No there are not unless your collection is mostly tapes of your band recorded in the garage on a Sharp ghetto-blaster. If you find any professional recording, from any era, sounding unlistenable, that's a problem with your system. A good system will always convey the intent of a recording even if it is not a Diana Krall album.
Which neatly brings us to
8) Diana Krall albums are worth listening to. No they are not. I don't think an explanation is necessary. If you don't know what I mean then you probably didn't read this far anyway.
9)A good test for a system is a painstakingly superb recording of a woman singing while a bloke hits a block of wood with a stick. No it isn't, that will sound good on an Amstrad. A good test for a system is 'Thin Lizzy: Live And Dangerous' at generous SPL. When you are next at a show and they are playing the woman/block of wood thing, ask them to put on the Lizzy at volume. See how many will. Obviously let the block of wood thing finish first before you ask.
10) You can't knock it until you have tried it, no matter how wacky it is. Oh yes I can. Cable lifters, crystals, those things that look a bit like lecterns that you stick around the room to 'define the listening space', Peter Belt tweaks, colouring your fuses with a marker pen, special bowls you put on the speakers... there's a million more. See busted myth 1 and read a book on human psychology. Or at least skim-read it.
Number 8 is NOT an audiophile myth. Everyone knows that those albums are pure drivel.
I'd replace your Number 8 myth with the myth that there is no difference in various pressings of an LP. The differences in various pressings could be enormous.
Another myth busted :)
Enough of this gay banter.
Here's my ten Audiophile busted myths, take them or leave them. You'll probably leave them, Bad move but it's a free country (except it isn't):
1) You can overcome plaebco and expectation bias without listening blind . No you can't unless you are Jesus and have powers. (You're not Jesus).
It's great when people claim that they could 'easily' tell the difference between, for example, mains cables, if blind-tested, but then suddenly get all coy when put on the spot, and start saying that they would find blind-testing 'stressful'. Pah! My father did five years convoy duty in the North Atlantic during WW2, and had three ships he was on torpedeod by U-Boats. That was stressful.
I always get Diana Krall mixed up with Alison Krauss. Not that I've ever listened to either of them. One of them is/was married to Elvis Costello, whose father went to my school. Now that's what I call an extremely tentative link to a famous person.
Bigman80
13-04-2018, 21:52
Enough of this gay banter.
Here's my ten Audiophile busted myths, take them or leave them. You'll probably leave them, Bad move but it's a free country (except it isn't):
1) You can overcome plaebco and expectation bias without listening blind . No you can't unless you are Jesus and have powers. (You're not Jesus).
2) High resolution digital is better. No it is just different mastering or if it is the same master and you still think it is better see 1) above.
3) There are things that matter in audio but we can't measure them yet. No, there really are not. There might be things we rarely measure or don't ever measure but there's no mystery science theatre going on.
4) Some equipment is better at conveying the 'emotion' of the musicians better. No it is probably just technically better and/or better engineered. There's no 'emotion' op amp or resistor you can buy. You'd think the Japanese would have invented it by now but they haven't ( see: Ken Ishiwata). And it's mostly in your mind and your mood at the time of listening anyway.
5) Speaker cable and interconnects can make a big difference. No they can't (see myth 1 above). At best they make a tiny difference.
6) All the really good kit is very expensive for good reasons. No it isn't, although I suppose it depends what you mean by expensive. You can't make anything good on the cheap. But a £10K item of kit is at most just 500 quid worth of parts once the maker, distributor, dealer and HMRC (the VAT) have had their cut. That's scary when you think about it. If you are capable of building your own equipment you are laughing. Wish I was.
7) There are a lot of poor recordings. No there are not unless your collection is mostly tapes of your band recorded in the garage on a Sharp ghetto-blaster. If you find any professional recording, from any era, sounding unlistenable, that's a problem with your system. A good system will always convey the intent of a recording even if it is not a Diana Krall album.
Which neatly brings us to
8) Diana Krall albums are worth listening to. No they are not. I don't think an explanation is necessary. If you don't know what I mean then you probably didn't read this far anyway.
9)A good test for a system is a painstakingly superb recording of a woman singing while a bloke hits a block of wood with a stick. No it isn't, that will sound good on an Amstrad. A good test for a system is 'Thin Lizzy: Live And Dangerous' at generous SPL. When you are next at a show and they are playing the woman/block of wood thing, ask them to put on the Lizzy at volume. See how many will. Obviously let the block of wood thing finish first before you ask.
10) You can't knock it until you have tried it, no matter how wacky it is. Oh yes I can. Cable lifters, crystals, those things that look a bit like lecterns that you stick around the room to 'define the listening space', Peter Belt tweaks, colouring your fuses with a marker pen, special bowls you put on the speakers... there's a million more. See busted myth 1 and read a book on human psychology. Or at least skim-read it.Lmao, great list Macca. I obviously disagree with the Cable one [emoji6]
walpurgis
13-04-2018, 21:53
You can distinguish between Hi-Fi components without blind testing and identify when something sounds better. If not, nobody would end up with a system worth a damn!
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 21:54
How about this (unrelated) myth:
A friend of mine claims that the commonly agreed upon knowledge that guitar strings go dead after being played for some time is a myth. He says that regardless of whether a guitar string is clean or dirty, it vibrates at the frequency you have tuned it to, and that's it. Obviously, a dirty string generates the same measurement by the oscilloscope as the squeaky clean string.
So my friend thinks that the perception that a dirty guitar string sounds 'dead' is pure placebo.
If someone were to stretch that analogy, one might say that there is no difference between various hi fi systems. It's all in our heads.
I've heard someone compared an ultra high end turntable side-by-side with the entry level turntable and could not hear any difference...
Discussssssss......
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 21:55
I always get Diana Krall mixed up with Alison Krauss. Not that I've ever listened to either of them. One of them is/was married to Elvis Costello, whose father went to my school. Now that's what I call an extremely tentative link to a famous person.
Now that was stressful!
speedracer
13-04-2018, 21:59
I know where you're coming from (and largely agree with the rest of your post), but I assure you it's a fallacy that properly designed valve amps measure badly in comparison with SS amps; it simply depends on what you're measuring, and also how you choose to interpret the results;)
Plus, any valve amp that sounds "devine", for the right reasons [i.e. reproduces voices and instruments in a lifelike and natural way] rather than simply because its euphonic coloration is seductive, will almost certainly also measure well. Mine certainly does! :)
I've yet to hear a valve amp that measures poorly, sound good - that is 'good', for the right reasons, as outlined above.
Marco.
I totally agree with you Marco, I had to take my Art Audio Quintet to Graeme at Ampregen recently for a couple of small repairs, & he told me he was impressed with how it measured & how quiet it was. I was thinking of trying another amp as it hadn't really been doing it for me before the repair, although it worked okay & sounded okay, but I was shocked when I got it back how much better it was than pre repair, just as shocked as I was when I first heard it & bought it.
Number 8 is NOT an audiophile myth. Everyone knows that those albums are pure drivel.
I'd replace your Number 8 myth with the myth that there is no difference in various pressings of an LP. The differences in various pressings could be enormous.
Both very fair points. Although I doubt you would find an audiophile who would suggest that there is never a difference in pressings. Even I will agree that it can be significant. Although if the re-pressing is also a re-master then all bets are off.
I may be needlessly hyphenating again there. Sorry.
Stratmangler
13-04-2018, 22:06
I may be needlessly hyphenating again there. Sorry.
De-hyphenated posts are preferable ;)
I sometimes wonder where all these alleged assertive, bullying objectivists hang out.
Oh come off it, Joe. I think you're suffering from selective amnesia.... As you also say:
I have, for my sins, been on audio forums for 25 years now.
In that case, you must remember the 'bad old days' of the likes of Zerogain, which was packed full of the very types you mention - a truly toxic place for any subjectivist to inhabit, and one of the reasons why AoS was created, as a safe haven away from them...!!
Or Wigwam, before the recent clear out of the 'old guard', which at times was almost as toxic as Zerogain.
Even pfm, 5 or 6 years ago had its problems with very arrogant and dogmatic objectivists, who used to dominate threads and simply not allow subjectivists to express any opinions that didn't 'fit' with their scientific belief system - I should know because I've battled with them all and ended up being banned for it [on Wigwam]!
You might not notice these 'characters' as much as others, because you don't wind them up or are simply more tolerant of their 'excesses', but the reality is they're alive and kicking on most hi-fi forums, generally making it an unpleasant place for anyone to be who doesn't sign up to their audio 'world view'.
OTOH there's plenty of subjectivists wishing to assert that theirs is the one true way to audio nirvana.
In all honestly, where? Can you cite one example? Perhaps that's simply how you interpret someone's passion or enthusiasm for something they like, and which for them works? I've only seen, certainly on here, opinions being vociferously expressed or experiences passionately related, not anyone 'asserting that their way is the one true path'...
Marco.
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 22:13
Oh come off it, Joe. I think you're suffering from selective amnesia.... As you also say:
In that case, you must remember the 'bad old days' of the likes of Zerogain, which was packed full of the very types you mention - a truly toxic place for any subjectivist to inhabit, and one of the reasons why AoS was created, as a safe haven away from them...!
Or Wigwam, before the recent clear out of the 'old guard', which at times was almost as toxic as Zerogain. Even pfm, 5 or 6 years ago had its problems with very arrogant and dogmatic objectivists, who used to dominate threads and simply not allow subjectivists to express any opinions that didn't 'fit' with their scientific belief system - I should know because I've battled with them all and ended up being banned for it!
You might not notice these 'characters' as much as others because you don't wind them up or are simply more tolerant of their 'excesses', but the reality is they're alive and kicking on most hi-fi forums, generally making it an unpleasant place for anyone to be who doesn't sign up to their audio 'world view'.
In all honestly, where? Can you cite one example? Perhaps that's simply how you interpret someone's passion or enthusiasm for something they like, and which works? I've only seen, certainly on here, opinions being vociferously expressed or experiences passionately related, not anyone 'asserting that their way is the one true path'...
Marco.
All good points, Marco, and, on a somewhat unrelated note, you made me a bit worried now -- I've been on this forum for quite some time already, and still haven't been banned. Hmm, I'm getting old, losing my edge...
Oh come off it, Joe. I think you're suffering from selective amnesia.... As you also say:
In that case, you must remember the 'bad old days' of the likes of Zerogain, which was packed full of the very types you mention - a truly toxic place for any subjectivist to inhabit, and one of the reasons why AoS was created, as a safe haven away from them...!
Or Wigwam, before the recent clear out of the 'old guard', which at times was almost as toxic as Zerogain. Even pfm, 5 or 6 years ago had its problems with very arrogant and dogmatic objectivists, who used to dominate threads and simply not allow subjectivists to express any opinions that didn't 'fit' with their scientific belief system - I should know because I've battled with them all and ended up being banned for it!
I posted only rarely on Zerogain*, and hardly at all on Wigwam; never had any grief on either, or on pfm for that matter. Whatever the forum, it's usually the same cast of characters knocking seven shades of shit out of each other, whilst the majority look on, bemused. Eventually some get banned and start their own forums.
* Actually someone was rude about my musical tastes on Zerogain.
Well, I was only answering your earlier question of 'Where are all these alleged assertive, bullying objectivists?' Just because you haven't had any grief from them, doesn't mean that they don't (or didn't) exist;)
Marco.
Actually someone was rude about my musical tastes on Zerogain.
If you like The Smiths or U2* then fair comment, otherwise I agree very rude, how dare they.
*I'm guessing this event pre-dates Diana Krall. Otherwise add her in as well.
All good points, Marco, and, on a somewhat unrelated note, you made me a bit worried now -- I've been on this forum for quite some time already, and still haven't been banned. Hmm, I'm getting old, losing my edge...
No chance, we lurves ya, Alex!:D
Marco [a big fan of your 'thought provoking, slightly controversial epistles'].
walpurgis
13-04-2018, 22:35
If you like The Smiths or U2* then fair comment, otherwise I agree very rude, how dare they.
*I'm guessing this event pre-dates Diana Krall. Otherwise add her in as well.
You can add Gary Numan and Queen to that!
(if that doesn't get 'em up in arms nothing will ;))
You can add Gary Numan and Queen to that!
(if that doesn't get 'em up in arms nothing will ;))
I quite like 'Seven Seas Of Rye'. But I'd cheerfully go back in time and strangle them all as children to prevent 'Bohemian Rhapsody.' Then bet on some sports fixtures and make millions like Biff out of 'Back To The Future - Part 2'. Could go and see Hendrix at the Isle Of Wight too. I'd just have to avoid meeting my future self. And getting caught for the child murders, obviously.
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 22:57
No chance, we lurves ya, Alex!:D
Marco [a big fan of your 'thought provoking, slightly controversial epistles'].
Aargh, now you make me feel like I'm some lame ass conformist.
Never a sellout!
magiccarpetride
13-04-2018, 23:02
I quite like 'Seven Seas Of Rye'. But I'd cheerfully go back in time and strangle them all as children to prevent 'Bohemian Rhapsody.' Then bet on some sports fixtures and make millions like Biff out of 'Back To The Future - Part 2'. Could go and see Hendrix at the Isle Of Wight too. I'd just have to avoid meeting my future self. And getting caught for the child murders, obviously.
You made me lose my shit over that. I was trying to read this out loud to my wife, but couldn't. I was repeatedly breaking down trying to pronounce the word 'strangle'. Was always choking on the first syllable ('stra').
:rfl:
If you like The Smiths or U2* then fair comment, otherwise I agree very rude, how dare they.
Actually it was because I said I couldn't stand the sound of the harpsichord and much preferred to listen to Bach's keyboard music played on the piano.
Actually it was because I said I couldn't stand the sound of the harpsichord and much preferred to listen to Bach's keyboard music played on the piano.
Harpsichord does my head in too. You were right and he's an idiot. Case closed.
George47
14-04-2018, 09:59
Enough of this gay banter.
Here's my ten Audiophile busted myths, take them or leave them. You'll probably leave them, Bad move but it's a free country (except it isn't):
1) You can overcome plaebco and expectation bias without listening blind . No you can't unless you are Jesus and have powers. (You're not Jesus).
2) High resolution digital is better. No it is just different mastering or if it is the same master and you still think it is better see 1) above.
3) There are things that matter in audio but we can't measure them yet. No, there really are not. There might be things we rarely measure or don't ever measure but there's no mystery science theatre going on.
4) Some equipment is better at conveying the 'emotion' of the musicians better. No it is probably just technically better and/or better engineered. There's no 'emotion' op amp or resistor you can buy. You'd think the Japanese would have invented it by now but they haven't ( see: Ken Ishiwata). And it's mostly in your mind and your mood at the time of listening anyway.
5) Speaker cable and interconnects can make a big difference. No they can't (see myth 1 above). At best they make a tiny difference.
6) All the really good kit is very expensive for good reasons. No it isn't, although I suppose it depends what you mean by expensive. You can't make anything good on the cheap. But a £10K item of kit is at most just 500 quid worth of parts once the maker, distributor, dealer and HMRC (the VAT) have had their cut. That's scary when you think about it. If you are capable of building your own equipment you are laughing. Wish I was.
7) There are a lot of poor recordings. No there are not unless your collection is mostly tapes of your band recorded in the garage on a Sharp ghetto-blaster. If you find any professional recording, from any era, sounding unlistenable, that's a problem with your system. A good system will always convey the intent of a recording even if it is not a Diana Krall album.
Which neatly brings us to
8) Diana Krall albums are worth listening to. No they are not. I don't think an explanation is necessary. If you don't know what I mean then you probably didn't read this far anyway.
9)A good test for a system is a painstakingly superb recording of a woman singing while a bloke hits a block of wood with a stick. No it isn't, that will sound good on an Amstrad. A good test for a system is 'Thin Lizzy: Live And Dangerous' at generous SPL. When you are next at a show and they are playing the woman/block of wood thing, ask them to put on the Lizzy at volume. See how many will. Obviously let the block of wood thing finish first before you ask.
10) You can't knock it until you have tried it, no matter how wacky it is. Oh yes I can. Cable lifters, crystals, those things that look a bit like lecterns that you stick around the room to 'define the listening space', Peter Belt tweaks, colouring your fuses with a marker pen, special bowls you put on the speakers... there's a million more. See busted myth 1 and read a book on human psychology. Or at least skim-read it.
Hmmmmm......
1) You can minimise these effects by not carrying out ABX tests with 12 sec samples but by listening for much longer time periods and getting the real measure of the item and then trying the other component. Doing blind tests is an awful way to test components and I have not seen any statistically significant data that shows SS amp sound different. But they are.
3) Yes there is. When Bruno Putzeys developed Class D he heard some observations about SS amps (feedback) and went off and devised his own tests. If he thought it was a placebo then there would be no new test.
4) True but some equipment can strip music of its micro detail and make it a dissected thing to be admired as opposed to music to be enjoyed.
6) Depends what you mean by good reasons. There are reasons. How much does your computer cost in components? There is normally a 5:1 ratio between a sales price and component costs for a lot of audio although pretty boxes are expensive. Newer direct sales methods try to remove one of the cost elements, of course you increase the risk of ownership that way. Making it yourself? What an 845 valve amp with 1,200V??
9) Agreed but as an owner of the 24-bit version of the Thin Lizzy you could end up with a system that has no treble to make that listenable. :)
10) Truish. Someone told me Belden mains cables at £40 (decent connectors) was better than most copper mains cables. Ha....it was.
Pigmy Pony
14-04-2018, 09:59
I quite like 'Seven Seas Of Rye'. But I'd cheerfully go back in time and strangle them all as children to prevent 'Bohemian Rhapsody.' Then bet on some sports fixtures and make millions like Biff out of 'Back To The Future - Part 2'. Could go and see Hendrix at the Isle Of Wight too. I'd just have to avoid meeting my future self. And getting caught for the child murders, obviously.
So you're the one that didn't get to see Hendrix? I suppose someone had to stay behind and 'man the fort'.
And what's wrong with 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? They had great fun with it on 'Wayne's World', even the lad that was trying not to throw up.
Pigmy Pony
14-04-2018, 10:08
I remember back in the eighties a reviewer called Jimmy Hughes talking about the sonic benefits of putting wooden chopping boards in random places on your listening room floor, and placing feet under three of the four legs of tables and chairs.
It was around this time I moved away from hifi and spent my money on holidays instead.
In general I agree with your post 161 Martin, and it is mostly compliant with an objectivist standpoint IMO.
But although I mostly hold those views, they are in a 'draft' folder, because noting is that fixed to me and I mustn't rule out subjectivist views out of hand; it is important to remain open to new views which maybe truths.
My Hi-Fi friend has given me several Dianna Krall discs, and I have never 'got' them.
RobbieGong
14-04-2018, 10:25
Enough of this gay banter.
Here's my ten Audiophile busted myths, take them or leave them. You'll probably leave them, Bad move but it's a free country (except it isn't):
1) You can overcome plaebco and expectation bias without listening blind . No you can't unless you are Jesus and have powers. (You're not Jesus).
2) High resolution digital is better. No it is just different mastering or if it is the same master and you still think it is better see 1) above.
3) There are things that matter in audio but we can't measure them yet. No, there really are not. There might be things we rarely measure or don't ever measure but there's no mystery science theatre going on.
4) Some equipment is better at conveying the 'emotion' of the musicians better. No it is probably just technically better and/or better engineered. There's no 'emotion' op amp or resistor you can buy. You'd think the Japanese would have invented it by now but they haven't ( see: Ken Ishiwata). And it's mostly in your mind and your mood at the time of listening anyway.
5) Speaker cable and interconnects can make a big difference. No they can't (see myth 1 above). At best they make a tiny difference.
6) All the really good kit is very expensive for good reasons. No it isn't, although I suppose it depends what you mean by expensive. You can't make anything good on the cheap. But a £10K item of kit is at most just 500 quid worth of parts once the maker, distributor, dealer and HMRC (the VAT) have had their cut. That's scary when you think about it. If you are capable of building your own equipment you are laughing. Wish I was.
7) There are a lot of poor recordings. No there are not unless your collection is mostly tapes of your band recorded in the garage on a Sharp ghetto-blaster. If you find any professional recording, from any era, sounding unlistenable, that's a problem with your system. A good system will always convey the intent of a recording even if it is not a Diana Krall album.
Which neatly brings us to
8) Diana Krall albums are worth listening to. No they are not. I don't think an explanation is necessary. If you don't know what I mean then you probably didn't read this far anyway.
9)A good test for a system is a painstakingly superb recording of a woman singing while a bloke hits a block of wood with a stick. No it isn't, that will sound good on an Amstrad. A good test for a system is 'Thin Lizzy: Live And Dangerous' at generous SPL. When you are next at a show and they are playing the woman/block of wood thing, ask them to put on the Lizzy at volume. See how many will. Obviously let the block of wood thing finish first before you ask.
10) You can't knock it until you have tried it, no matter how wacky it is. Oh yes I can. Cable lifters, crystals, those things that look a bit like lecterns that you stick around the room to 'define the listening space', Peter Belt tweaks, colouring your fuses with a marker pen, special bowls you put on the speakers... there's a million more. See busted myth 1 and read a book on human psychology. Or at least skim-read it.
7 - Depends on your definition of poor. True high fidelity does not make even poor recordings sound great.
A well sorted system should play back to you what was recorded ie: as close too then.
At the end of the day that is what our set ups are doing, playing back to us recorded music.
Some recordings are not great or well balanced, some are thin, bass light and so on, that's a reality and if thats the case then that is what your system should play back - surely :scratch:
Fortunately most recordings are pretty good and we hear that for the best part of it all :)
I love The Smiths and Morrissey. Is it a myth that people on hifi forums all love Dire Straits, Steely Dan, Yello and Pink Floyd?
1) You can minimise these effects by not carrying out ABX tests with 12 sec samples but by listening for much longer time periods and getting the real measure of the item and then trying the other component. Doing blind tests is an awful way to test components and I have not seen any statistically significant data that shows SS amp sound different. But they are.
Indeed, although it's only "awful" in the sense of considering the results obtained as conclusive, which they aren't, simply because like every other test that involves the human brain and hearing, it's fallible! The likelihood is, whenever you try and *force* yourself to hear a difference, because you're under pressure to do so, in the way of ABX testing or similar, you run the risk of obtaining a false result, as most people don't respond well to being tested in that way.
Subtle differences in sound between components, which generally is what you're testing for, if they exist, are more likely to be revealed naturally, over time, by listening to the component(s) concerned with a variety of familiar recordings, in a relaxed environment, than via any 'quick fire' ABX testing.
Therefore, by all means undertake such tests, with whatever components you like, and use it as ONE valid means of determining differences, but the best way of obtaining meaningful results, is as you've said, by listening for much longer time periods and getting the real measure of the item, and then trying the other component.
Of course, like ABX testing, that process is also fallible, for a variety of obvious reasons (NO test is perfect), but at least you've applied some reasonable judgement criteria, in order to determine the existence of any differences. Therefore, I'd contend that some form of objective *and* subjective testing (as outlined) is required, to get a proper handle on what's happening, not just 10 minutes spent getting jiggy with a blindfold!
Marco.
RobbieGong
14-04-2018, 11:32
I love The Smiths and Morrissey. Is it a myth that people on hifi forums all love Dire Straits, Steely Dan, Yello and Pink Floyd?
ha ha, not sure about all, but indeed I'm aware that a heck of a lot (myself included) do like the Dan a lot which makes you wonder why so many of us audio nuts do whilst at the same time having very differing musical tastes otherwise :scratch:
Are the Dan a bit like Bob Marley then, as in everybody or most people tend to like them to at least a fair extent ? :)
Maybe it's something to do with the connection of melody, musicality and groove of which those two are definately of 'that'
I love The Smiths and Morrissey. Is it a myth that people on hifi forums all love Dire Straits, Steely Dan, Yello and Pink Floyd?
Like The Smith, Steely Dan and Syd Barrett-era Pink Floyd. Don't like Dire Straits, don't know Yello.
Is it a myth that people on hifi forums all love Dire Straits, Steely Dan, Yello and Pink Floyd?
Yes ... is that another one busted?
Pigmy Pony
14-04-2018, 16:41
Yello are a Swiss Duo whose best known track is 'The Race', which I guarantee you will have heard.
I think Steely Dan have a large following among audiophiles, probably because the quality of the musicianship is only equalled by their production values, while I feel that Bob Marley songs have an irresistible groove which the production allows to shine through.
Only my opinion of course, but I am a bit biased. :)
magiccarpetride
14-04-2018, 16:51
Audiophile myth #5: People buy expensive hi fi in order to listen to music.
Wrong! That's like saying people buy expensive cars in order to drive themselves from A to B. There is so many reasons more important than transport that make people spend a lot of money on cars. If getting from A to B was the primary reason, everybody would be driving some shitty economy clunker.
Aesthetics, social prestige, etc. all determine how much money is someone going to blow on buying an automobile. People like to drive a head-turner vehicle.
Same motivation applies to hi fi. Aesthetics, wanting to impress our friends, wanting to have a head-turner hi fi in the comfort of our luxurious home, to tell the world that 'we have arrived' and are living the 'charmed life'.
Music can be enjoyed on pretty much ANY system. If the music is good, the quality of audio components won't matter. I have, on more than one occasion, been driven to tears while driving and listening to some divine music on my shitty dinky car speakers, while the music playback was being drowned by the noisy car and the nosy traffic.
magiccarpetride
14-04-2018, 17:05
Indeed, although it's only "awful" in the sense of considering the results obtained as conclusive, which they aren't, simply because like every other test that involves the human brain and hearing, it's fallible! The likelihood is, whenever you try and *force* yourself to hear a difference, because you're under pressure to do so, in the way of ABX testing or similar, you run the risk of obtaining a false result, as most people don't respond well to being tested in that way.
Subtle differences in sound between components, which generally is what you're testing for, if they exist, are more likely to be revealed naturally, over time, by listening to the component(s) concerned with a variety of familiar recordings, in a relaxed environment, than via any 'quick fire' ABX testing.
Therefore, by all means undertake such tests, with whatever components you like, and use it as ONE valid means of determining differences, but the best way of obtaining meaningful results, is as you've said, by listening for much longer time periods and getting the real measure of the item, and then trying the other component.
Of course, like ABX testing, that process is also fallible, for a variety of obvious reasons (NO test is perfect), but at least you've applied some reasonable judgement criteria, in order to determine the existence of any differences. Therefore, I'd contend that some form of objective *and* subjective testing (as outlined) is required, to get a proper handle on what's happening, not just 10 minutes spent getting jiggy with a blindfold!
Marco.
I agree. Doing pointed tests (i.e. focused short bursts of listening in order to try and hear differences between two configurations) is akin to doing short focused looks into one of those jumbled images that look chaotic, but the aim is to see what image is hidden in that chaotic mess. You'll only be able to really see the 'hidden image' emerge if you relax your gaze, take your sweet time, and not try too hard.
To me, the same approach works when trying to determine whether a change in my configuration results in the changed sound quality. Intense listening simply doesn't work, as you're straining your ears and in the process just hearing your own blood pumping through your ears.
Instead, I relax, grab a glass of wine/beer, sit back, and let the sound flow. Slowly but surely, those at first imperceptible 'images' start emerging. Or, if those hidden characteristics fail to emerge after a relaxed session, then I know that the change was for naught, and the purchase is to be returned for a refund.
Pigmy Pony
14-04-2018, 17:06
At the risk of getting my arse kicked for going slightly 'off topic', may I suggest looking at a video posted by stratmangler over on 'Musical Compositions'.
It's a good reminder of why we got into this hifi malarky.
Forget the myths for a few minutes, and just enjoy.
In an earlier post I said that I don’t pay attention to measurements anymore, I buy stereo based on its ability to evoke emotion. It seems a lot of us are on the same page?
But what I didn’t say was that as my system has evolved to be emotionally evoking, I find that I’m using gear that has been touted as Hi End. Which usually means it has some quality that garners praise in the industry. So perhaps accuracy is what makes a system more involving? If a 13 foot grand piano sounds like a child’s toy, it’s not going to be satisfying.
As far as buying name brands to impress others, I don’t subscribe to that. Oh! I know people do! Well to do people want to show off the fact that they own the best! But personally, I don’t know a soul who is impressed by the names on my stereo, no one I know is even aware of who these companies are. While they may be impressed by its sheer size, and quality of playback, the fact that I have a Cary CD player doesn’t even register with them, they’ve never even heard of them. So I hang out with a bunch of hicks, so what. That’s why I’m on this forum, to have someone to talk to about this crap. And I’d hate to think I spent $20 grand to impress you blokes.
Russell
I want an emotive connection to the music I play, and most of what I like gives me that. My system isnt top end by any means but it hits the spot, and that, to me, is what I do it for.
In the right circumstance you can get an 'emotional connection' from a crappy car stereo, doing seventy with all the road noise and that.
I suppose it depends on what you define as an 'emotional response.' There are some tunes that make me nostalgic, does that count?
Personally I think the emotional connection is a given, or you wouldn't be listening to music at all. But there is also the physical and intellectual stimulus too. Isn't having a good system just about getting more of what is already good? The 12 ounce steak instead of the 6 ounce. That's how I see it anyway.
Maybe, but just being relatively content, Ive found, helps a lot. Chasing the dream can become tiring; well it was with me eventually. I know now what would improve what I have but also know I dont have to.:)
...and of course nostalgia is an emotion; and a good one, but we dont want that all the time. Beauty is better afaic
walpurgis
14-04-2018, 21:27
Chasing the dream can become tiring; well it was with me eventually. I know now what would improve what I have but also know I dont have to.
I have similar thoughts.
Yello are a Swiss Duo whose best known track is 'The Race', which I guarantee you will have heard.
I've probably heard it, but without knowing what it was. I always get Yello mixed up with Yazoo anyway.
I like all sorts of music, really, apart from 'free' jazz, which just sounds like people playing notes at random. I need a semblance of a tune.
Personally I think the emotional connection is a given, or you wouldn't be listening to music at all. But there is also the physical and intellectual stimulus too. Isn't having a good system just about getting more of what is already good?
I think it also helps 'unlock' new types of music, so you're not just limited to enjoying one genre. I'm certainly finding I appreciate solo piano more now I can follow what the left hand as well as the right hand is doing.
I think it also helps 'unlock' new types of music, so you're not just limited to enjoying one genre. I'm certainly finding I appreciate solo piano more now I can follow what the left hand as well as the right hand is doing.
I also need a system that will make a decent fist of a wide genre. I like Bill Evans Trio and I like Wu Tang Clan. I wouldn't have a set up that could do justice to one but not the other if I could help it.
walpurgis
14-04-2018, 21:49
I'm certainly finding I appreciate solo piano more now I can follow what the left hand as well as the right hand is doing.
Have you heard piano through Lowther horns? That's an odd experience.
I quite like 'Seven Seas Of Rye'. But I'd cheerfully go back in time and strangle them all as children to prevent 'Bohemian Rhapsody.' Then bet on some sports fixtures and make millions like Biff out of 'Back To The Future - Part 2'. Could go and see Hendrix at the Isle Of Wight too. I'd just have to avoid meeting my future self. And getting caught for the child murders, obviously.
And there I was thinking that I was the only one of two people (the second is now sadly dead) in the whole Universe who detests 'Bohemian rhapsody'!
walpurgis
14-04-2018, 22:20
And there I was thinking that I was the only one of two people (the second is now sadly dead) in the whole Universe who detests 'Bohemian rhapsody'!
:D Join the club!
Oh mama mia, mama mia let me go!
Russell
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
A better system will allow more to be heard of the performance which surely means more of the artist's expression, but music can still be appreciated on much lesser equipment.
I agree Alex about car purchase, and I'm sure a great deal of analysis is put into seduction of the populous by advertising, centred on self image and resulting self esteem. (Placement of self in social hierarchy, status etc.)
I am worried personally that I may be subconsciously doing that with my new speakers, and have been discussing this with a friend, they are a little bit bling.
I also agree that long term relaxed listening can allow new perceptions, and that the pressure involved in short AB comparisons can, like exam or interview nerves, sabotage the objective.
magiccarpetride
15-04-2018, 02:32
In an earlier post I said that I don’t pay attention to measurements anymore, I buy stereo based on its ability to evoke emotion. It seems a lot of us are on the same page?
But what I didn’t say was that as my system has evolved to be emotionally evoking, I find that I’m using gear that has been touted as Hi End. Which usually means it has some quality that garners praise in the industry. So perhaps accuracy is what makes a system more involving? If a 13 foot grand piano sounds like a child’s toy, it’s not going to be satisfying.
As far as buying name brands to impress others, I don’t subscribe to that. Oh! I know people do! Well to do people want to show off the fact that they own the best! But personally, I don’t know a soul who is impressed by the names on my stereo, no one I know is even aware of who these companies are. While they may be impressed by its sheer size, and quality of playback, the fact that I have a Cary CD player doesn’t even register with them, they’ve never even heard of them. So I hang out with a bunch of hicks, so what. That’s why I’m on this forum, to have someone to talk to about this crap. And I’d hate to think I spent $20 grand to impress you blokes.
Russell
Hi fi is a prestigious thing not because of the way it looks (it's not a car), nor because of the expensive brand names of its constituent components. Most people who are supposed to be impressed by our hi fi don't really know anything about hi fi brands, nor how expensive/affordable those brands are.
What is impressive is when you have guests over and play them some music, and it's usually the very first time they've heard good sound system. It usually leaves quite an impression (unless a guest is an idiot, of course; then you cannot make any impression, because idiots are unimpressionable).
Firebottle
15-04-2018, 07:20
So I hang out with a bunch of hicks, so what. That’s why I’m on this forum, to have someone to talk to about this crap. And I’d hate to think I spent $20 grand to impress you blokes.
You got me there Russel, I'm a hick ;)
We are not very impressionable on here, you may have noticed.
I also agree that long term relaxed listening can allow new perceptions, and that the pressure involved in short AB comparisons can, like exam or interview nerves, sabotage the objective.
It's this 'pressure' bit I don't understand. Let's suppose you buy a new mains cable (or whatever) and proclaim to the world 'this has transformed the sound of my system, it's a night and day difference'. Surely there would be no pressure on you to undertake a simple demonstration of this difference? Someone switches between old and new cables, without telling you which cable is in use. The 'night and day difference' should be obvious.
Or, of course, some people are making overblown claims about tiny (or non-existent) differences, and are understandably reluctant to have these claims debunked.
Obviously people can buy what they want, even if to 99% of the population their purchases seem over-priced to the point of insanity. I don't myself care if their claims are exaggerated or based purely on wishful thinking. But if someone proclaims to the world that their purchase of a new gizmo has made a huge difference to the sound of their system, it's surely not unreasonable for someone else to ask them to demonstrate this; indeed, the purchaser should be only too pleased to do so.
It's this 'pressure' bit I don't understand. Let's suppose you buy a new mains cable (or whatever) and proclaim to the world 'this has transformed the sound of my system, it's a night and day difference'. Surely there would be no pressure on you to undertake a simple demonstration of this difference? Someone switches between old and new cables, without telling you which cable is in use. The 'night and day difference' should be obvious.
Or, of course, some people are making overblown claims about tiny (or non-existent) differences, and are understandably reluctant to have these claims debunked.
Obviously people can buy what they want, even if to 99% of the population their purchases seem over-priced to the point of insanity. I don't myself care if their claims are exaggerated or based purely on wishful thinking. But if someone proclaims to the world that their purchase of a new gizmo has made a huge difference to the sound of their system, it's surely not unreasonable for someone else to ask them to demonstrate this; indeed, the purchaser should be only too pleased to do so.
Added to which if the difference is as large as claimed it should be trivially easy to spot it blind, despite all the 'pressure'.
Anyway I've took the horse to water and it won't drink so I'll just let the horse get on with it and go and do something else.
George47
15-04-2018, 08:25
Of course, some people are prone to exaggerate these differences but that does not mean they do not exist and for some, the removal of a sharp sound to something more neutral means a lot to them. I am not keen on blind tests as everytime they have been done on SS amps people were unable to tell the differences between them. Not a great advert for the test. Does a Naim, Lavardin, Pass Labs and a Class D nCore amplifier sound the same? Listen in a relaxed environment and there are differences that are easy to hear. Do a double-blind listening test and you can't tell the differences between them. If it does not work on SS amps then what chance on subtler effects with cables?
Use the components to do what they were designed to do, play music in your hifi system. Do not worry about artificial tests that try to solve one problem by creating another.
Hi fi is a prestigious thing not because of the way it looks (it's not a car), nor because of the expensive brand names of its constituent components. Most people who are supposed to be impressed by our hi fi don't really know anything about hi fi brands, nor how expensive/affordable those brands are.
What is impressive is when you have guests over and play them some music, and it's usually the very first time they've heard good sound system. It usually leaves quite an impression (unless a guest is an idiot, of course; then you cannot make any impression, because idiots are unimpressionable).
It’s true that some friends come just to listen. They bring a few beers and we enjoy some old songs that bring back memories. They would never pay to have a decent system of their own, but they do know they enjoy my system. And that’s part of the joy of ownership! To share great music with your friends, and family. For a brief moment they understand why you are so into it.
And a few of my friends have stepped up and bought themselves some decent stereo. And I felt good to think I influenced them to do so. I’m not sure why? But I do.
Russell
You got me there Russel, I'm a hick ;)
We are not very impressionable on here, you may have noticed.
Hi-Fi Hicks, is that an oxymoron?[emoji2]
Russell
walpurgis
15-04-2018, 09:09
Hi-Fi Hicks, is that an oxymoron?[emoji2]
Russell
Dunno. 'Tory benevolence' is though.
anthonyTD
15-04-2018, 09:42
I have always found the Lowther sound "odd" full stop...
Have you heard piano through Lowther horns? That's an odd experience.
It's this 'pressure' bit I don't understand.
It's natural to experience an element of pressure during ANY kind of test, especially if it's being conducted in a public or unfamiliar place, outwith of the comfort of your own home. Did you feel pressure when sitting exams in school? I know I did. It's human nature, as you want to do well and get [whatever it is being tested for] RIGHT.
Now, of course it's different if you're simply blind-testing yourself at home, which shouldn't be stressful or pressurised, but as soon as the situation involves being judged by others on the results obtained, that causes pressure, and some will feel it more than others.
I agree that demonstrating any claimed difference shouldn't be a problem, if that difference exists, and that could take the form of a simple listening test at a bake-off, which should reveal the existence of any difference or not, and is less pressurised than blind-testing, so folks should be open to that.
As for 'night and day' differences between mains leads, that simply doesn't happen.
If anyone is claiming that, then their system is either broken or they're simply just exaggerating. Mains leads, designed for hi-fi purposes, provide subtle but worthwhile sonic improvements, not drastic ones, the cumulative effect when used throughout a system, can be significant. However, if someone is claiming much more than that, then they're best ignored.
Marco.
Of course, some people are prone to exaggerate these differences but that does not mean they do not exist and for some, the removal of a sharp sound to something more neutral means a lot to them. I am not keen on blind tests as everytime they have been done on SS amps people were unable to tell the differences between them. Not a great advert for the test. Does a Naim, Lavardin, Pass Labs and a Class D nCore amplifier sound the same? Listen in a relaxed environment and there are differences that are easy to hear. Do a double-blind listening test and you can't tell the differences between them. If it does not work on SS amps then what chance on subtler effects with cables?
Use the components to do what they were designed to do, play music in your hifi system. Do not worry about artificial tests that try to solve one problem by creating another.
Spot on, George, as usual, and you make a good point about SS amps! :thumbsup:
Marco.
The pressure to which I refer is that usually DB testing is organised by some authority, for eg., Alan Shaw was baiting his members to meet for one.
When you have an expert, or academics, and they can often be the arrogant bully objectivists we have discussed on another thread, running a test on you, it can be intimidating and upsetting to normal perception.
The ambient I/P ruins the perception of subtlety. Have you tried answering an exam question whilst someone is shouting at you about your abilities?
Well, I was talking about informal, A/B comparison in your own home rather than double-blind scientifically rigorous testing in a strange/unfamiliar environment. I agree that the latter could be intimidating.
As for tests and exams, it's many years since I've done any. These days, most academic assessments are based on coursework and 'open-book' exams, which are inherently less stressful than having to memorise shedloads of stuff and be able to call it to mind during multiple exams. Having said that, some people find it stressful having to write essays to deadlines even with all the relevant books and internet resources to hand. A spot of National Service would do them good.
magiccarpetride
15-04-2018, 17:16
It's natural to experience an element of pressure during ANY kind of test, especially if it's being conducted in a public or unfamiliar place, outwith of the comfort of your own home. Did you feel pressure when sitting exams in school? I know I did. It's human nature, as you want to do well and get [whatever it is being tested for] RIGHT.
Now, of course it's different if you're simply blind-testing yourself at home, which shouldn't be stressful or pressurised, but as soon as the situation involves being judged by others on the results obtained, that causes pressure, and some will feel it more than others.
I agree that demonstrating any claimed difference shouldn't be a problem, if that difference exists, and that could take the form of a simple listening test at a bake-off, which should reveal the existence of any difference or not, and is less pressurised than blind-testing, so folks should be open to that.
As for 'night and day' differences between mains leads, that simply doesn't happen.
If anyone is claiming that, then their system is either broken or they're simply just exaggerating. Mains leads, designed for hi-fi purposes, provide subtle but worthwhile sonic improvements, not drastic ones, the cumulative effect when used throughout a system, can be significant. However, if someone is claiming much more than that, then they're best ignored.
Marco.
I find that even intimate, solipsistic A/B tests conducted in the privacy and isolation of my listening room, with no one present, can be very stressful. I purchase this new interconnect, bring it home, plug it in, and suddenly the angels sing! I hear it right way, from the moment the first sound emerges from the speakers, that now this makes it sound so much cleaner. It sparkles!
I'm in love, head over heels, I'm so happy I made that change.
So now the very reasonable thing would be to replace the new interconnect with the old one, to hear how much worse the sound is with the old interconnects. But I find all kinds of excuses not to do it. I push that test for later. Why? Because I feel the pressure, fearing that the newly won happiness is just a placebo.
I'd hate to be proven wrong, to look like an idiot in my own eyes. So I continue living with this untested situation. Ah, human nature is full of folly...
George47
15-04-2018, 18:01
I find that even intimate, solipsistic A/B tests conducted in the privacy and isolation of my listening room, with no one present, can be very stressful. I purchase this new interconnect, bring it home, plug it in, and suddenly the angels sing! I hear it right way, from the moment the first sound emerges from the speakers, that now this makes it sound so much cleaner. It sparkles!
I'm in love, head over heels, I'm so happy I made that change.
So now the very reasonable thing would be to replace the new interconnect with the old one, to hear how much worse the sound is with the old interconnects. But I find all kinds of excuses not to do it. I push that test for later. Why? Because I feel the pressure, fearing that the newly won happiness is just a placebo.
I'd hate to be proven wrong, to look like an idiot in my own eyes. So I continue living with this untested situation. Ah, human nature is full of folly...
Now let me make it worse. Supposing you do the blind test and you hear no difference. Do you actually find the music was always there or does the music disappear from your new cable? Imagine all that lovely music gone. Don't do it.
magiccarpetride
15-04-2018, 18:28
Now let me make it worse. Supposing you do the blind test and you hear no difference. Do you actually find the music was always there or does the music disappear from your new cable? Imagine all that lovely music gone. Don't do it.
You've just described my worst fear!
I have heard the argument that as long as the purchaser “Believes”, he hears a difference, then he has his money’s worth. He spends his money to make himself happy, and if he believes it sounds better, and makes himself happy, does it matter if it’s real or not? If he swears that the salt and pepper shakers he has taped to his wires are making all the difference, who are we to burst his bubble?
Personally I think that’s a load of bullocks, but, live and let live is not a bad motto.
Russell
magiccarpetride
15-04-2018, 19:02
I have heard the argument that as long as the purchaser “Believes”, he hears a difference, then he has his money’s worth. He spends his money to make himself happy, and if he believes it sounds better, and makes himself happy, does it matter if it’s real or not? If he swears that the salt and pepper shakers he has taped to his wires are making all the difference, who are we to burst his bubble?
Personally I think that’s a load of bullocks, but, live and let live is not a bad motto.
Russell
Why do you think happiness may not be real and that it is a load of bollocks?
Why do you think happiness may not be real and that it is a load of bollocks?
I have no qualms with happiness, but I do have a problem with snake oil salesmen getting rich off of manipulating others. And if your happiness stems from delusions, sooner or later that’s going to wear thin. But, as I said before, live and let live. If someone swears that wooden pucks in the corners of the room are making his system sound better, I would never try to poo poo on their beliefs. . While in my head I may be saying this is baloney, I would smile and nod, leaving them to their happy delusions.
We are only human and it is near impossible to not have an opinion of your own. The secret is to realize that others are not so impressed with your opinions, no matter how right, or wrong, you may be. And as in most every endeavor, the truth lies in a gray area, almost nothing is black and white.
Russell
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