Technics SL 1200 G & 1200 GR

[Tea24]

Any user/tryer have experience of the strengths and or weaknesses of either of these, head to head comparisons, any suggested tweaks such as mats/head shells etc., in fact any info you think pertinent to a possible purchaser. Your assessment of either or both tables would be gratefully received.

We are contemplating downsizing and I am thinking of having a one TT solution for everything from 78s to LPs. (old age creeping in)

In an ideal world I would go for an SME10 with a M2-9R but the price is too steep for the bank manager’s liking let alone getting it past SWMBO. If I could get a good used one with the up to date 3 speed controller then it might become a possibility.

Anyone any ides on SME 10 vs 1200 G?

All thoughts are relevant.

Rest of Kit:

Quad 66 & 606, Graham Slee Jazz Club/ Cambridge 640P ( may get Slee Elevator) Kef 1042s.


Thanks

[Ammonite Audio]

Hi Julian

I have not personally heard the SL-1200G, although I have customers that own them, but I do use a GR here and it's very impressive. The G/GAE and GR share the same motor topology and drive circuitry, except the GR has a single rotor and the G/GAE have twin rotors. The GR's one rotor provides enough torque to almost strip skin off your fingers when pressed against the platter edge, and it's noteworthy that when Noel Keywood tested the GR, its measured speed stability actually bettered the G/GAE's, so I'm not convinced that the G's more elaborate motor is justified in the real world. The G/GAE do have a nice machined alloy top plate, but the GR's cheaper cast top plate is nicely made and according to my spirit levels, completely true in all directions. The G/GAE have a heavier platter with bonded brass layer against the GR's simpler design which is still rather heavy with a thick rubber layer underneath. People often assume that the GR's platter is a lightweight, resonant thing like that of the old Mk2, but it's not, being heavy by any standard and even without its mat is totally 'dead' to a knuckle rap.

It is worth noting that the SL-1200G's platter is properly balanced and the GR's is not.

Those differences apart, there are significant differences in the standard tonearms fitted to the G/GAE and GR. The former's arms have magnesium tubes whereas the GR's is aluminium. Under the skin, the G/GAE arms have the same sort of metal sub-structure as the old SL-1200 Mk2/Mk5 models, but the GR is very much built to a lower price point and pretty much everything from the outer mounting down is actually made from plastic, albeit very nicely finished plastic. My experience, supported by pretty much all the reviews in magazines for these decks, is that none of these tonearms match the superb performance of the decks' motor systems, which always was the case and why these decks can properly do justice to rather high end tonearms.

So, my first suggestion for tweaking is to consider changing the tonearm, or at least consider something like a KAB damper for the existing one. The standard rubber mat does impart a 'rubbery' sonic signature to the decks and my choice for a much better sounding replacement is the Funk Achromat. Headshells - there are many to choose from but one of the main benefits from swapping these is to tweak the overall effective mass of the arm to better suit cartridges like medium compliance moving coils.

I would take the G or GR over the SME 10 any day - apart from cost there is the significant convenience of a lid, and the overall package is quite compact.

[Phil Bishop]

I purchased a 1200GR a couple of weeks ago and absolutely love it. I now wish I'd possibly bought the 1200G although from what Hugo says above I'm not sure it would necessarily sound any better. The 1200G does look beautiful though. Personally, I'd hate the thought of changing the tonearm as these appear to me superb decks as they are with the classic SL1200 looks but a whole host of changes under the bonnet (including with the tonearms).

My reasons for buying one were very much in line with the OP's - I have a few 78s and am getting more into 45s and just enjoying things, rather than striving for that last ounce of detail, etc. Mind you, with decent cartridge you'll get that anyway on your LPs.

These are simply stunning decks by any measure. They have an assurance in operation and sound that other decks I have owned don't - they just seem designed to play records for enjoyment. There are some You Tube videos from that Michael Framer (Stereophile) guy comparing the G to his mega-buck belt drive and it's hard to tell any meaningful difference from the audio clips and analysis.

I have done a couple of "upgrades" but I'm leaving it at that - an Achromat and an AT headshell. I'm currently using a Nagaoka MP-110 which suits it well.

One word of advice - shop around. The GR can be nailed for little over a Grand and a couple of places are doing the G at £2.5K at the moment, or so it seems.

Cheers

Phil

[chris@panteg]

Enjoy it Phil, it's a great deck and will last for decades, looks to be a fantastic buy at about 1k.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Julian

I have not personally heard the SL-1200G, although I have customers that own them, but I do use a GR here and it's very impressive. The G/GAE and GR share the same motor topology and drive circuitry, except the GR has a single rotor and the G/GAE have twin rotors. The GR's one rotor provides enough torque to almost strip skin off your fingers when pressed against the platter edge, and it's noteworthy that when Noel Keywood tested the GR, its measured speed stability actually bettered the G/GAE's, so I'm not convinced that the G's more elaborate motor is justified in the real world. The G/GAE do have a nice machined alloy top plate, but the GR's cheaper cast top plate is nicely made and according to my spirit levels, completely true in all directions. The G/GAE have a heavier platter with bonded brass layer against the GR's simpler design which is still rather heavy with a thick rubber layer underneath. People often assume that the GR's platter is a lightweight, resonant thing like that of the old Mk2, but it's not, being heavy by any standard and even without its mat is totally 'dead' to a knuckle rap.

Those differences apart, there are significant differences in the standard tonearms fitted to the G/GAE and GR. The former's arms have magnesium tubes whereas the GR's is aluminium. Under the skin, the G/GAE arms have the same sort of metal sub-structure as the old SL-1200 Mk2/Mk5 models, but the GR is very much built to a lower price point and pretty much everything from the outer mounting down is actually made from plastic, albeit very nicely finished plastic. My experience, supported by pretty much all the reviews in magazines for these decks, is that none of these tonearms match the superb performance of the decks' motor systems, which always was the case and why these decks can properly do justice to rather high end tonearms.

So, my first suggestion for tweaking is to consider changing the tonearm, or at least consider something like a KAB damper for the existing one. The standard rubber mat does impart a 'rubbery' sonic signature to the decks and my choice for a much better sounding replacement is the Funk Achromat. Headshells - there are many to choose from but one of the main benefits from swapping these is to tweak the overall effective mass of the arm to better suit cartridges like medium compliance moving coils.

I would take the G or GR over the SME 10 any day - apart from cost there is the significant convenience of a lid, and the overall package is quite compact.

Hi Hugo

Very good information, how easy is it to change the arm on the GR, I have the mk2 and fitted an SME 309, it was fairly easy apart from having to cut away part of the rubber base for the arm cable.

[Ammonite Audio]

The GR is very straightforward in this respect, and there is no cutting away required at all - just remove the bottom layer and everything is accessible (there is no intermediate layer on the GR, but there is on the G). Then it’s a simple matter of undoing 3 bolts and one earth wire and the stock tonearm can be lifted out. The whole process is just as easy to reverse.



Hi Hugo

Very good information, how easy is it to change the arm on the GR, I have the mk2 and fitted an SME 309, it was fairly easy apart from having to cut away part of the rubber base for the arm cable.

[chris@panteg]

That sounds very easy compared to my mk2, I think it is worth doing if you can afford a better arm and have the inkling.

Thanks Hugo.

[Phil Bishop]

Enjoy it Phil, it's a great deck and will last for decades, looks to be a fantastic buy at about 1k.

Thanks Chris, I will. Love the signature by the way - one of my favourite lines from a film and how I have often felt about going on holiday :lol:

What is a bit lacking at the moment are comparisons between the G and GR from listeners. I guess that will come with time.

Cheers

Phil

[chris@panteg]

Thanks Chris, I will. Love the signature by the way - one of my favourite lines from a film and how I have often felt about going on holiday :lol:

What is a bit lacking at the moment are comparisons between the G and GR from listeners. I guess that will come with time.

Cheers

Phil

Sorry I can't help you with that as I've not heard it but I suspect if you can afford it, the G would be a lovely thing to own.

[Tea24]

Thanks for all the replies and a particular thank you to Hugo for his very thorough appreciation of the SL1200GR. It seems like I can save some dosh here and upgrade the tonearm later. (Hugo I still have the Pioneer CD recorder you sold me & it is put to good use!).

Hugo have you tried the new Jelco 9 inch on the GR? Or the SME M2-9-R?

In fact given my age and the fact that I am slightly deaf in one ear, I may well be satisfied with the stock arm. I find with this deafness that I have rather given up on sitting in the 'sweet spot', for obvious reasons. If money was no object I might try some Shahinian speakers but I love my KEFs.

I am surprised that you -prefer the Technics to the SME 10. The latter has such high praise from some, only being mentioned as slightly analytical.

[Ammonite Audio]

Hi Julian

I'm very pleased that the old Pioneer is still going strong!

I've tried the (now obsolete) Jelco SA-750D, the new Jelco TK-850S, SME 309 and the new Glanz MH-94S on the GR. The Glanz is utterly extraordinary, as it should be at over £5k, but of the others I prefer the TK-850S, which has a more 'grown up' and musically expressive character compared to the old SA-750D (which has been reborn as the cheaper Jelco TS-550S) and seems, to my ears, to play music better than the SME. I don't really care for the SME 'sound', even though I admire the engineering and quality of their products, but actually the engineering of the new Jelco is pretty much on par and I do genuinely prefer the sound of the Jelco.

Your mentioning SME has reminded me that I must find a new home for the 309!


Thanks for all the replies and a particular thank you to Hugo for his very thorough appreciation of the SL1200GR. It seems like I can save some dosh here and upgrade the tonearm later. (Hugo I still have the Pioneer CD recorder you sold me & it is put to good use!).

Hugo have you tried the new Jelco 9 inch on the GR? Or the SME M2-9-R?

In fact given my age and the fact that I am slightly deaf in one ear, I may well be satisfied with the stock arm. I find with this deafness that I have rather given up on sitting in the 'sweet spot', for obvious reasons. If money was no object I might try some Shahinian speakers but I love my KEFs.

I am surprised that you -prefer the Technics to the SME 10. The latter has such high praise from some, only being mentioned as slightly analytical.

[chris@panteg]

Hugo, that timestep arm does look good, looks made for the Technics, very interesting.

[alanc]

One really annoying thing about the new Technics is that the arm height has not been adjusted to go lower and really suits tall cartridges best (e.g Shure DJ cartridges). At the arm’s lowest position it isn’t actually low enough. This means that if you want perfect VTA you need to raise the level of the mat (e.g. with another one underneath) and you really need to raise it to the highest level possible. In my case the record just goes over the spindle and then the VTA is perfect. Just using the supplied mat will result in the arm tube rising toward the arm base. If you want to experiment with the arm tube being slightly higher at the cartridge end (some people claim a bright sounding cartridge is tamed a little this way) you can’t unless you use a spacer between cartridge and headshell. I’m using an ADC headshell so this should be easier than with the Technics headshell. But I haven’t found anything suitable so far and it really should be light (maybe plastic). Any ideas, anyone, regarding the spacers - probably 2 or 3 mm would be sufficient? So a great deck with one, at this price range, crazy, unforgivable flaw.

[Phil Bishop]

Alan,

What cartridge are you using? I'm currently using a Nagaoka MP-110 and the arm tube looks level to me, albeit to the naked eye - I have a headshell bubble level coming so will be able to check it. I'm also using an Achromat which I think is slightly thicker than the standard mat.

Cheers

Phil

[alanc]

Hi Phil,
It’s a fairly shallow AT440 mlb. I’ve got an SDS mat under the original for the moment and that just about works but it wouldn’t if I only used tha Technics mat which is actually thinner than the one on the MK2. The stupid thing is that if you heightened the arm to its maximum the arm tube wouldn’t be level even with the tallest cartridge available (I haven’t tried this out but I’m pretty sure that would be the case). So it goes too high at the expense of not going low enough - just 3 mm lower would have solved the problem. In its lowest position I need the equivalent of two mats to get a level arm tube. OK - it’s surmountable but Technics surely had enough time to sort this out. Anyone out there with clever ideas re spacers (need to be light)?

[Phil Bishop]

Hi Alan,

That's supposed to be a great cartridge match for the Technics and I imagine the arm height issue also applies to the older models so I imagine others have got round it.

I have not played around with the arm height adjustment yet on mine as it seemed more-or-less spot on with the Nagaoka to start with. However, I do remember having issues getting the arm low enough when I owned original SL1200 models.

Cheers

Phil

[montesquieu]

Hi Alan,

That's supposed to be a great cartridge match for the Technics and I imagine the arm height issue also applies to the older models so I imagine others have got round it.

I have not played around with the arm height adjustment yet on mine as it seemed more-or-less spot on with the Nagaoka to start with. However, I do remember having issues getting the arm low enough when I owned original SL1200 models.

Cheers

Phil

The other way to add height to the cartridge is to put a spacer between cartridge and headshell ... if wood or delrin these can effectively add no weight. Technics 3G headshell weight are great too for adding a bit of mass if needed along with height. I find this is often a better solution than changing or stacking mats.