View Full Version : Speaker distortion : the doppler effect
In the world of digital audio, jitter has been a focus of audiophile attention for well over a decade.
It is blamed for many of the sonic ills of which CD and other digital media have been accused.
But here's a puzzle: The major source of frequency intermodulation distortion in audio systems—the loudspeaker—has largely escaped such withering inquiry.
Why?
The rest of the (very interesting) article here : http://stereophile.com/reference/1104red/index.html
Steve Toy
17-03-2010, 02:20
Generally the speakers are the last link in the chain and are therefore the last place to look for imperfections from a musical POV. GIGO roolz!
If your worried about the dopler effect,get some electrostates.
If you think you can hear a loss from a 1/2 inch excursion in a fraction of a second,and it bothers you? how do you get through the day?
Speakers are the worst generators of distortion of almost any audio system, electrostatics being the odd exception. Jitter has been low enough for ages now (and good stable cures have been available for the old bad offenders for about as long).
I'd add that PASSIVE speakers are potentially the worst of all, as many crossover networks introduce all manner of nasties, no matter how good the components in the best examples are...
Ali Tait
17-03-2010, 11:19
That'll be why stats sounds better to me than any cone speaker then...
My view on this is that straying towards any form of absolutism (e.g. active is better than passive, electrostatics are better than box speakers, transistors are better than valves) likely results in only part of the truth (or story) being realised.
It's natural that we derive a warm glow from our own choices being supposedly 'confirmed as best', but the fact is that everything in audio is a compromise, so we simply have to choose which compromises best fit our needs and/or priorities. *That*, my friends, is the reality of the situation! :)
It's therefore the sum of the parts in any system which matters most, and not the individual effect of any of the constituent components.
Marco.
Stratmangler
17-03-2010, 11:39
It's therefore the sum of the parts in any system which matters most, and not the individual effect of any of the constituent components.
Marco.
Another way of putting it is to say that we select components with distortion characteristics we like the sound of.;)
Indeed! :)
Or.....those we consider as best for facilitating the faithful reproduction of real voices and instruments, which is essentially why I prefer valves to transistors and horn-driven loudspeakers to moving-coils (if this is the correct term?)
Marco.
Ali Tait
17-03-2010, 12:26
:lol: Thought that would get you going!
anthonyTD
17-03-2010, 12:34
Speakers are the worst generators of distortion of almost any audio system, electrostatics being the odd exception. Jitter has been low enough for ages now (and good stable cures have been available for the old bad offenders for about as long).
I'd add that PASSIVE speakers are potentially the worst of all, as many crossover networks introduce all manner of nasties, no matter how good the components in the best examples are...
totaly agree dave!:)
A...
Stratmangler
17-03-2010, 12:47
Indeed! :)
Or.....those we consider as best for facilitating the faithful reproduction of real voices and instruments, which is essentially why I prefer valves to transistors and horn-driven loudspeakers to moving-coils (if this is the correct term?)
Marco.
My use of the word "distortion" was very carefully considered:eyebrows:
One possible outcome of the Doppler Effect outlined in the article could be the sonic signature of loudspeaker drive units.
By this I mean that certain brands of loudspeaker drive unit have a "house" sound about them.
The material that the cone is made out of must surely have some kind of effect on the amplitude of the harmonic sidebands caused by the Doppler Effect, and must therefore contribute significantly to the sonic signature of the drive unit.
A successful drive unit would be one that sounds pleasant despite all of the harmonic distortions (of which there are very, very many) taking place.
Your Tannoys are moving coil drive units. Depending on the age of the drive units you may possibly have horn loaded tweeter units.
I managed to find this site http://fn8142b.tripod.com/Tannoy.html - the pictures are fascinating.
Cheers for the excellent link, Chris. So then they are moving-coil drive units with horn-loaded tweeters (1960s Tannoy Monitor Golds) :)
What I meant by my earlier statement is that I prefer the sound of high-quality, properly implemented, horn-loaded tweeters to the equivalent domes normally used, as I consider that their distortion characteristics better replicate those of real voices and instruments, and so therefore to my ears make music sound more believable and 'real'.
High-quality fully horn-loaded speakers (such as Guy Sergeant's or Steve Sheils' Vitavoxs) can be even better still! :eek:
Electrostatics can also be superb in the right set-up, but ultimately are too restrictive in terms of bass output (compared to what I'm used to in that area) and loudness capability for my tastes.
Marco.
totaly agree dave!
A...
But when passive loudspeakers are designed and implemented correctly and driven by a properly designed valve amplifier (such as in systems you've listened to recently ;)) that isn't the case.
It's all about context :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
17-03-2010, 13:54
I'm not entirely sure why Tannoy chose to horn load the tweeter - it might been to do with improving the efficiency of the HF unit, but equally it might have been done to provide acoustical alignment of the HF and mid-bass unit, so the two units operate in tandem as a point source. After all, the HF unit itself is mounted to the rear of the magnet assembly, and is a long way back from the cone of the mid-bass unit.
I like what I've heard of certain horn loaded HF units that I've heard - Wills Visaton units are exemplary.
Last time I heard them Will was using them with Jericho Horns - I've not managed to make the last couple of Owston meets, so I've not heard the field coil OB speakers Will is using now.
Colin's (Toppsy) Fostex units are excellent too - I think they are T90's.
Colin has attenuated the Fostex's by a huge amount to level match his Quad ESL63's (they also use a high pass filter arrangement centred on a 12 kHz feed in point with 3dB/octave slopes), and the two speakers work superbly well together.
If I could give the Quad/Fostex thing room I'd be tempted to go that way myself.
And I don't do pipe and slippers:eyebrows:
I'm not entirely sure why Tannoy chose to horn load the tweeter - it might been to do with improving the efficiency of the HF unit, but equally it might have been done to provide acoustical alignment of the HF and mid-bass unit, so the two units operate in tandem as a point source.
I suspect that's the most likely explanation.
Yes, I also rate Toppsy's designs - his cabinet design work in particular is exemplary :)
Marco.
The Sonic Doppler affect:
I dought there is one of us that could hear the compression or streach of sound caused by a .50 inch travel.in1/ 20th of a second from 12 feet away.
If you could hear that your a very special freak of nature and should be exploited in a 3rd rate carnavel.
If you did hear it and it bothered you so much you where no longer able to enjoy music from your speakers,How have you lived this long with so much emotional damage? I can't make it to work today because there's a cigeret butt in my drive way,I have to scrub and bleach it today.OK.
Is the hobbie about listening to music or comming up with extreame abstrack phyisics issuses to find clever theretical answers to questions about theretical crap you couldn't hear even if it did exist in a macro halusination from Steven Hawlken after drinking to much coffiee through his feeding tube or big super silly neck straw.
Sonic Doppler from .50 inches of travel (DON'T TAKE THE BROWN ACID IT'S BAD MMMMK)
Stratmangler
18-03-2010, 07:42
The Sonic Doppler affect:
I dought there is one of us that could hear the compression or streach of sound caused by a .50 inch travel.in1/ 20th of a second from 12 feet away.
If you could hear that your a very special freak of nature and should be exploited in a 3rd rate carnavel.
If you did hear it and it bothered you so much you where no longer able to enjoy music from your speakers,How have you lived this long with so much emotional damage? I can't make it to work today because there's a cigeret butt in my drive way,I have to scrub and bleach it today.OK.
Is the hobbie about listening to music or comming up with extreame abstrack phyisics issuses to find clever theretical answers to questions about theretical crap you couldn't hear even if it did exist in a macro halusination from Steven Hawlken after drinking to much coffiee through his feeding tube or big super silly neck straw.
Sonic Doppler from .50 inches of travel (DON'T TAKE THE BROWN ACID IT'S BAD MMMMK)
You need to chill out a bit Jeff - it's only audio after all !
Doppler distortion must surely be tiny in comparison to the other distortions introduced by speakers.
Driver Distortions
Cabinet Resonances
Crossover distortions
How should we rank them?
And don't forget room effects.
But when passive loudspeakers are designed and implemented correctly and driven by a properly designed valve amplifier (such as in systems you've listened to recently ;)) that isn't the case.
It's all about context :)
Marco.
No Marco, you're just fudging one set of distortions and adding another set. I'm not doubting for a millisecond that the result is fantastically enjoyable, to you and yours, but the distortions are still there. My speakers aren't the dogs doo-dahs either for low bass distortion (where your tannoys would eat them alive) and seamless crossover integration, but it's more than livable with in our small family room.
Going active PROPERLY does remove a lot of problems (and I don't mean the tiny squeak-boxes under a grand either). I'm sure Tannoy did pro active 15" active models (often with two bass units, one of which was the DC main driver).
Back to the OP. I think Brian above has it right. Doppler is the least of the problems unless one is trying to get huge cone excursion in a small speaker (and usually the suspension gives out first, or the coil burns out...). Bigger bass units barely move by comparison I found..
You need to chill out a bit Jeff - it's only audio after all !
I'm chilled,but I think some times mags like the one that just did this artical try to appeal to the crazyer side of us audio geeks to sell more issues and
have a breaking story.
So I injected some hypurbaly, and over reaction to make it fun and exciting.:mental:
My sence of humor about his kind of stuff is easy to miss.But it's just that.
I mean let's face it, who else but one of us audionuts could understand spending $5,000 per meter on interconects or a power cord.
You have to sometimes look inward.And chuckle.
No Marco, you're just fudging one set of distortions and adding another set. I'm not doubting for a millisecond that the result is fantastically enjoyable, to you and yours, but the distortions are still there. My speakers aren't the dogs doo-dahs either for low bass distortion (where your tannoys would eat them alive) and seamless crossover integration, but it's more than livable with in our small family room.
*Technically*, Dave, I don't doubt you're correct, but also as you rightly say:
you're just fudging one set of distortions and adding another set.
...So let's just say I much prefer the distortions inherent in my set-up (and consider them more musically accurate) than those inherent in a solid-state active speaker system. If I could go active with some copper amps and my Lockwoods, it might be different... :eek:
Trust me, I've heard plenty of solid-state driven active speakers (good and bad) over the years, and none of them I'd give house room to compared to what I'm using now!
One day when you get the opportunity to come up and hear the kind of sound I've got going on with the copper amp and Lockwoods, the penny will drop - bigtime ;)
Don't worry, old chap, we'll soon remove that blinkered Ashley James mantra from your psyche! :lol:
Marco.
I wonder if Anthony could make a suitable active crossover for the Tannoys? It can't be that difficult as long as you know the crossover slopes and correct phase alignment needed. I think Tannoy did it with an ss filter network (I'm sure they did once) and if I'm correct, the info for the crossover could be used in a decent valve design. Trouble is, until you've heard what could be done, it's a very expensive experiment to carry out :(
The mantra regarding active operation isn't Ash's alone. It's been known for decades in the pro sector (and a good few decent domestic designers too) that GOOD active will ALWAYS beat an EQUIVALENT passive one. I'm getting lampooned on HDD for daring to suggest that Harbeth's bass drivers, size for size, are so good that they're able to get similar midrange resolution in their passives to an equivalent active alternative from another manufacturer and with a sweeter top too, compared to the squitty spitty gritty noise that passes for treble in most of the cheaply imported actives from China...
I'm getting lampooned on HDD for daring to suggest that Harbeth's bass drivers, size for size, are so good that they're able to get similar midrange resolution in their passives to an equivalent active alternative from another manufacturer and with a sweeter top too, compared to the squitty spitty gritty noise that passes for treble in most of the cheaply imported actives from China...
Me too. I have given up on them at HDD. They will not accept that in a world of engineering compromises what may be flawed technology might outperform a theoretical advantage.
Mind you, it still leaves unanswered the question of how much better Harbeths might be if driven actively.
The Grand Wazoo
18-03-2010, 17:52
I wonder if Anthony could make a suitable active crossover for the Tannoys?
I suggested this very thing to Marco a while back, Dave. Someone (a very well respected audio engineer) once offered to make me a valve based active cross-over. I turned him down at the time because of a short but sweet letter from the taxman. I really should have followed it up, though. It's a route I intend to take at some time in the distant future.
Cheers
I've been banned from ADHD three times! Seems Darren only wants AVI and Apple fanbois on there.
The guy doesn't have a clue how to run a forum properly, which is why HDD will remain as nothing other than a minority fanboy site for AVI, Apple and computers, where blinkered and deluded measurement obsessive-types can cosy up to each other and remain in denial about their observational and judgemental inadequacies in audio.
Marco.
I have to say that the response of the AVI 6" two way is exceptionally good and smooth, with no nasssssssssties anywhere in the range. The only obvious "shortcoming" for enthusiasts in larger rooms is the bass rolloff below 70Hz which is rather steep. The claim that 6" is all that's needed is fine for small rooms like mine, but I'd still like to hear a bigger one.
Brian, best to leave them to it as i ought to do and certainly, I suspect Harbeth will leapfrog the ADM9 and go for an all digital solution depending on market trends :) As it is, I can guarantee the P3 ESR FEELS like a good grand and a half in terms of build and finish and their "seconds" are better than many people's grade "1."
Dave Hewitt
19-03-2010, 10:50
Hi
In my view the method adopted by tannoy with the pepperpot tweeter assembly must be the most tortuous route possible,the sound being squeezed thro those drillings cant do much for the sound,yet some people think they are the bees knees.In my opinion of course,and its still a dome tweeter at the end of the day.
Dave.
The pepperpot went off the boil in the mid seventies, pics of castings from that period being really bad. No wonder Tannoy put a "dustcap" of thick material over it...
These days, this isn't an issue and tannoy like to show off their tweeters. Supposed to sound better too I understand.
The pepperpot went off the boil in the mid seventies...
Phew! Mine are ok then (I was really worried there <snigger>) as they were built long before that :lol: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Dave Hewitt
19-03-2010, 14:21
Hi
I'd take that with a pinch of salt.
Dave.
Oh don't worry, dahling, I did! ;)
Hope your tootsies aren't killing you too much in your shtrappy shandals :lol: :lol:
Marco.
bonneville
19-03-2010, 15:27
Hi
I'd take that with a pinch of salt.
Dave.
That salt is bad for your BP.try this:cool:
Vinnie
Phew! Mine are ok then (I was really worried there <snigger>) as they were built long before that :lol: :eyebrows:
Marco.
I'll try and find the pictures to prove it! I'm not imagining this, as it was shown on a Tannoy dedicated site..
Here it is!!!! Follow the pics of the disassembly of an HPD driver and you'll see the bad pepperpot casting.....
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/tanpanos1.jpg
Not concerning pepperpots, but a good article on restoring 15" Monitor Golds..
http://44bx.com/tannoy/mods.html
I'll add more when I find what I'm looking for
ACTIVE CROSSOVER IDEAS and comments - http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy86.htm
http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy101.htm
http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy76.htm
Some more on the post 1985 thoughts
"SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENTS
>From 1985 Tannoy abandoned printed circuit boards and wafer switches in the crossover designs. A
significant amount of research had shown conclusively that the layout and mechanical design or a high
power speaker crossover was vital. Listening tests were carried out with great precision to isolate
some of the aural effects encountered.
The Tannoy R & D department concluded that:
Printed Circuit Boards are detrimental to sound quality.
Star earthing is of paramount importance.
Components must be held down securely to prevent microphonics.
Wiping contacts and switches downgrade sound quality significantly.
Gold plating of electrical contacts is beneficial to sound quality.
Connecting cables can have audible effects.
In 1985 the introduction of the Super Gold Monitor series and a top end monitor called the FSM
commenced, replacing the Super Red series. Simultaneously a gradual change over in other products to
'Hard Wiring', eliminating printed circuit mounted components and, 'High Current Switches' using gold
plated screw terminals, for which many worldwide patents were granted, was undertaken."
Dave Hewitt
19-03-2010, 17:36
Hi
I have also seen the photos of the pepperpots that have been drilled to put it mildly to cock,perhaps the guys had been out the night before.
Dave.
In my view the method adopted by tannoy with the pepperpot tweeter assembly must be the most tortuous route possible,the sound being squeezed thro those drillings cant do much for the sound
My mid range unit looks like a sugar shaker!
http://www.springair.de/images/articles/36f79da3f9211adc64d4c499b9950b1e_5.jpg
http://www.springair.de/images/articles/585ba2474a2a848ee4a48639b050b4f7_5.jpg
I'm chilled,but I think some times mags like the one that just did this artical try to appeal to the crazyer side of us audio geeks to sell more issues and
have a breaking story.
So I injected some hypurbaly, and over reaction to make it fun and exciting.:mental:
My sence of humor about his kind of stuff is easy to miss.But it's just that.
:eyebrows:
I simply initiated this thread on about the same mood. I'm almost certain (but I'm not a specialist) that other distortions (crossover etc) are far more important than the "Doppler" effect.
I was also, in a way, trying to be exhaustive about speaker distortions. Kind of. :scratch: Because I had never thought about Doppler before, for speakers, tbh.
I like discussions like this. I learn plenty of thing in the end.
Can we rank the distortions?
Driver, cabinet and crossover?
What should the order be?
And we rank doppler last?
Can we rank the distortions?
Driver, cabinet and crossover?
What should the order be?
And we rank doppler last?
I would like to know too ! :)
Can we rank the distortions?
Driver, cabinet and crossover?
What should the order be?
And we rank doppler last?
I would rank them (in order of importance):
1. Driver (since all loudspeakers have a driver)
2. Cabinet (since most speakers, apart from electrostatics and unfolded horns, need a cabinet)
3. The crossover (since the distortion it produces is negligable to those of the first two)
4. 'Doppler' (which in the Keith Howard article seems to be confused with intermodulation distortion).
Frankly I found the whole article annoying - designed to give people one more thing to worry about unnecessarily.
For example he considers a speaker cone vibrating at 100Hz with a peak to peak excursion of 0.5". Howard correctly states that the maximum velocity is 4m/s. The speed of sound at 20 deg C and 50% humidity is 344m/s. The Doppler effect is going to shift the frequency from 100Hz to 101.16Hz, i.e a shift of 1.16Hz However at this frequency the 'just noticable difference' is, for most people, 3%, i.e 3Hz, so the Doppler effect will be virtually unnoticable and certainly masked by other tones .
If one were to be more realistic and take the average velocity of 2.54m/s, then the frequency shift becomes 0.74Hz.
Regarding the intermodulation by the bass driver cone of the notes produced by the horn tweeter in a dual concentric design (such as the Tannoy), reviewers of the early Tannoy designs listened very carefully for these effects and could find none. That's not to say they don't exist (they do), rather the intermodulation products are sufficiently low in amplitude as not to be a concern.
Regards
Thanks Barry.
Are there objective measured data and controlled subjective listening test results to quantify the relative significance of these various distortions?
Peter Galbavy
20-03-2010, 09:08
I have not read the article from the original posting, apologies.
Thought occurs to me though - how much of a similar effect is natural in the actually generation of the sounds and music that we record and listen to ? How much of any of this negligable effect is actually doubled up or cancelled by the recording/replay process ?
I am thinking instruments, esp drums, and microphone receiving the audio too.
I have not read the article from the original posting, apologies.
Thought occurs to me though - how much of a similar effect is natural in the actually generation of the sounds and music that we record and listen to? How much of any of this negligable effect is actually doubled up or cancelled by the recording/replay process ?
I am thinking instruments, esp drums, and microphone receiving the audio too.
Hello Peter,
Very much my thoughts, and another reason why I found the article annoying.
In fact to answer your question, I can't think of any mechanism by which sounds are produced that is not affected by the Doppler effect: the exhaled breath of a brass or reed player; the velocity of a vibrating string or drum skin. What these consideration do show is that this effect is increased the louder an instrument is played.
So on one level, it can be dismissed as being conceptually invalid: that is, 'these are what musical sounds are', and on another level they can also be dismisssed because the ear/brain cannot perceive this effect.
To explain, let us consider the quoted example of a 100Hz pure sinusoidal note, created by a loudspeaker at a sufficiently high level such that the driver cone excursion is 0.5". As has been stated, this will cause the actual signal to be received not as a pure sinusoid but as a slightly distorted waveform corresponding to one that has an average frequency of 100Hz, but actually increases to a maximum of 101.16Hz as the speaker cone moves forward and then decreases to a minimum of 98.94Hz as thecone moves away from the listener. Not only are these changes less than the 'just noticable difference' at a fregency of 100Hz (3Hz; less than a semitone), they occur over short time periods of 5ms. I do not believe that the ear/brain can resove these differences in so short a time, so perceives the note as the average 100Hz.
Incidently the 'just noticable difference' reduces as the frequency increases; so as one approaches the region of maximum sensitivity of the human ear (1 - 5 Hz) the figure has reduced to 0.5%. One could argue then, that bass players are out-of-tune more often than violin players!
Regards
Thanks Barry.
Are there objective measured data and controlled subjective listening test results to quantify the relative significance of these various distortions?
I don't know; the ordering is my personal speculation. I'll try and do some research to see what has been done.
Regards
The answer to the sonic doppler issue.
http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/majestic.htm
An interesting discussion on 'Doppler distortion' can be found at:
http://sound.westhost.com/doppler.htm .
I've not read it thoroughly, but it's food for thought and reinforces my initial opinion that the Stereophile article has many flaws. That's not to say that I agree with everything in the above cited link: the comment that the speaker cone does not move through the medium (air), does not apply to brass and wind instruments.
Still worth reading nonetheless.
The answer to the sonic doppler issue.
http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/majestic.htm
I once heard the Sound Labs A2 speakers at a Hi Fi show at Swiss Cottage, London many years ago. They join my canon of the most awful speakers I have ever heard, along with the Linn Isobaraks. However unlike the Linns, the Sound Lab speakers were demonstrated in a room that was far too small for them - the distributor should have known better!
Regards
I'm wondering if the doppler effect isn't more to do with small speakers trying to reproduce deep bass loudly and the harmonic distortion produced thus swamps it....
I'd say that the cabinet diffraction effects and the cabinet colourations themselves should come first, followed by the passive crossover, if there is one, as decent modern drive units and well sorted older ones too are actually pretty good, the crossover limiting what they can achieve..
I'm wondering if the doppler effect isn't more to do with small speakers trying to reproduce deep bass loudly and the harmonic distortion produced thus swamps it....
I'd say that the cabinet diffraction effects and the cabinet colourations themselves should come first, followed by the passive crossover, if there is one, as decent modern drive units and well sorted older ones too are actually pretty good, the crossover limiting what they can achieve..
This will solve the sonic Doppler effect once and for all.http://www.spectrumaudio.com/m-audio-ie-40-in-ear-monitors.html
This will solve the sonic Doppler effect once and for all.http://www.spectrumaudio.com/m-audio-ie-40-in-ear-monitors.html
Nay
Try this
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/auxetophone/auxetoph.htm#aux
I have the best solution to the Doppler effect :
http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/511236/Tronconeuse.jpg
One of those viola jokes:
Q. What is the difference between a viola and a chainsaw?
A. If pushed you can use a chainsaw a string quartet.
dave2010
21-03-2010, 18:34
Brian
Doppler distortion must surely be tiny in comparison to the other distortions introduced by speakers.
Wan't that part of the whole point of Keith's article in the first place. It's so obvious that Doppler distortion is negligible that he expected to get a negative result, but in fact didn't. I do take your point that other factors may also be important, but since I presume that some of the distortions you mention must have been present in the tests, then assuming the methodology was OK (needs to be checked very carefully - but it seemed sensible at first reading), then that indicates that other distortions do not mask the Doppler distortion.
There are other forms of distortion which many live with - arguably happily enough. However once one has become aware of them they can be rather painful. The odd effects from some forms of lossy compression when the compression is severe are rather unpleasant, but sadly once one has learnt to identify them, then it becomes possible to hear the same effects, though to a lesser extent, in material which is only slightly compressed. Some people never hear live sound, so don't have a frame of reference.
Sadlly though, even in the "real" world, there can be problems. Pianos can rattle, odd keys and strings can resonate, and if there are drum kits and cymbals left lying around, these can also resonate in sympathy - or not. Music stands left touching each other can also be a source of distraction. However, most of us hope that we can somehow achieve the ideal of having very good reproduction of wanted sounds, and hopefully rejection or avoidance of some unwanted sounds which occur in live situations. People who cough are of course a classic, as well as aircraft, cars and trains.
I for one am ok with the world being somewhat imperfact.
We have all met the white BMW owner in the gated community who sleeps with an oxygen mask at night.and takes loads of vitamins and go's to see a doctor for a little sneeze,small bruse or scrape, The plastic sergery clinics make millions from them.
Hi fi should be fun not become another nerosis.:mental:
dave2010
21-03-2010, 19:10
Jeff
I for one am ok with the world being somewhat imperfact.
We have all met the white BMW owner in the gated community who sleeps with an oxygen mask at night.and takes loads of vitamins and go's to see a doctor for a little sneeze,small bruse or scrape, The plastic sergery clinics make millions from them.
Hi fi should be fun not become another nerosis.:mental:Well, actually I've not met this particular gentleman, but I get what you're trying to say. You are raising an issue about hi-fi enthusiasts though. To what extent should they go in trying to get good results, and also why?
I suspect the Doppler/phase effects mentioned may well be real, despite being played down by some who have investigated them. Nevertheless, I think they'll be small compared with the rasping noise I get from one of my speakers, which I think is due to the suspension being rather worn out. One day I'll get them fixed, and put back into service.
Usually hi-fi kit isn't as good as hearing the real thing, but sometimes the sound at live concerts is not great. We just live with it, and hopefully enjoy the experience in most cases. Many of us listen on cheapish transistor radios, or in the car, and sometimes even that can be enjoyable :-)
Ali Tait
21-03-2010, 19:28
I'd venture to say that hi-fi is NEVER as good as the real thing.The obsessive bit comes in when we try to get it as near as we can.
At some point most people know when they have gone to far,some luckey buggers know before they go to far.some poor souls never get it till they go mad.
the sonic doppler effect just seems to be so small an issue in the big picture of the total system and room deflections and reflections that just mabey it's like claiming to hear constaint chatter comming from the planet mars on a quiot night.
Sorry, my thoughts are sometimes odd.
but i'm not going to sit and listen for sonic doppler from my kit.
When it comes to that I'll start trying to comuicate with house flys and roaches or training mosqutitos to fly in formation.
I'm not saying it isen't a real phonominon,just one you can't hear with the human ear.
We don't listen to music through a scope but with our ears,brains and if we are in the moment our hearts and souls.
Ali Tait
22-03-2010, 10:41
Agreed.
pure sound
22-03-2010, 10:51
I'd venture to say that hi-fi is NEVER as good as the real thing.The obsessive bit comes in when we try to get it as near as we can.
Just before xmas I went to see Jools Holland + Big Band in a fairly large venue. Great show & great performance, but we were quite far back and were hearing very little direct sound. It was all coming via a loud but mediocre pa system. It reminded me why I don't bother going to many such events. The sound at home is generally much better than that.
Live unamplified music in a smaller venue? Different thing altogether. Very enjoyable & very difficult to re-create plausibly at home.
Ali Tait
22-03-2010, 12:21
Aye,but if you'd recorded from where you were sitting and played it back at home,the live sound would still be far superior to the recording,poor as it may have been.That's the point I was making.
Certainly agree about unamplified stuff though,I went to see the Poozies a few months ago at a smallish venue in Dunfermline,and the sound was sublime.I got quite depressed when I realised how far away my system was in comparison when I played the cd I'd bought.
Aye,but if you'd recorded from where you were sitting and played it back at home,the live sound would still be far superior to the recording,poor as it may have been.That's the point I was making.
Certainly agree about unamplified stuff though,I went to see the Poozies a few months ago at a smallish venue in Dunfermline,and the sound was sublime.I got quite depressed when I realised how far away my system was in comparison when I played the cd I'd bought.
i went to see a couple of groups on saturday night
lesley bought a cd off one of them.. it sounded very close to what we thought was a fantastic live performance... it was a well recorded cd and but not what i'd call simple music to reproduce,..the live accordian had some fantastic overtones and a real sheen to the sound.. which i thought was reproduced very well at home...
steve
Ali Tait
22-03-2010, 20:15
Sounds like you're nearer than me then Steve! Might change once the direct-coupled amps are done.
Sounds like you're nearer than me then Steve! Might change once the direct-coupled amps are done.
i'm quite please with the current speaker set up ali.. i've got much more of a solid sound now.. bringing in more bass has balanced out the upper frequencies.. it sound less forward but still dynamic... i'm very pleased
look forward to hearing your new amps Ali... we all go in different directions
and this is one i'll be very interested to hear... we had a taster last year if i remember correctly...although it does/did seem a little scary to me.... you folks who are used to working with high voltages.. it will be nothing ??
cheers
steve
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 13:39
Aye it is a worry,though Nick is building safeguards in,such as monitored HT,which will cut off if there's a problem.
Also an interlock on the speaker cables.I guess with short runs of well overspecced cable,it should be pretty safe.I could always put the amps in acrylic cages!
Ali Tait
23-03-2010, 13:40
Aye it is a worry,though Nick is building safeguards in,such as monitored HT,which will cut off if there's a problem.
Also an interlock on the speaker cables.I guess with short runs of well overspecced cable,it should be pretty safe.I could always put the amps in acrylic cages!
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