Burn-in or gradually getting accustomed to the sound?

[magiccarpetride]

Five days ago I replaced my Rega RB300 tonearm with Jelco 750E. The sound changed immediately, and I interpreted the change as being a staggering improvement. I was immediately able to hear many previously never heard details, plus the overall sound became much more authoritative and natural.

I had a good fortune to be able to spend the past five days listening to a lot of LPs, enjoying the new configuration. Then, after about two or three days of dedicated listening, I began noticing how the sound changes. The sound started becoming less in-your-face analytical and gradually morphed into a much more relaxed, silky and sweet presentation.

I was amazed by the transformation -- it is precisely how I'd like my turntable to sound. But then I started wondering -- what is it in the chain that is now burning-in? Conventional wisdom claims that tonearms need no burn-in time, so what could it be?

Then it dawned on me -- I've added high quality brand new Nagaoka cables to connect Jelco with the phono stage. So could it be that Nagaoka cables are gradually burning in? I am not a believer in cable burn-in, so I immediately became skeptical of that hypothesis.

Then it dawned on me again -- maybe it's just me, my ears gradually getting used to the new configuration? And as I'm getting accustomed to the brand new sound, I'm beginning to perceive it as more pleasant, more familiar, smoother, more liquid and less granular?

So maybe this entire burn-in principle is merely an urban myth, and what's actually going on during the burn-in period is our listening getting accustomed to the new configuration?

Anyone had similar experiences?

[struth]

Oh dear. Get out your flak jackets. Lol

Not a big believer either but Ive no evidence either way. Could be both but cables do sound different

[walpurgis]

I'm inclined to think a lot of what is perceived as burn in is a combination of the acclimatising period to a changed sound and maybe fanciful thinking. I'm sure mechanical devices like transducers (speakers/cartridges) have a loosening up period and possibly valves, capacitors and transistors may have a settling spell. But cables? If something in them changes during use, I'd suggest they are probably faulty and possibly no longer meeting spec due to defective materials or design.

So there! :)

[Barry]

I personally think a lot of what is perceived as burn in is a combination of the acclimatising period to a changed sound and fanciful thinking. I'm sure mechanical devices like transducers (speakers/cartridges) have a loosening up period and possibly valves, capacitors and transistors may have a settling spell. But cables? If something in them changes during use, I'd suggest they are probably faulty and possibly not meeting spec due to defective materials or design.

So there! :)

Good post.

Certainly electrolytic capacitors need to be 'formed' from new, but those using a non-polar dielectric do not. If they do, then logic dictates coaxial cables ought to as well. I don't believe they do - but then I don't believe cables have a sound of their own. :sofa:

[magiccarpetride]

Oh dear. Get out your flak jackets. Lol

Not a big believer either but Ive no evidence either way. Could be both but cables do sound different

True, no doubt different cables tend to sound different. My inquiry is more pertaining to once we install a new cable, and acknowledging that it changes the sound, any subsequent perception of ongoing change (usually attributed to the nebulous 'burn in' phenomenon) could be explained away by us getting gradually acclimatized to the new sound.

But what do I know?

[magiccarpetride]

Good post.

Certainly electrolytic capacitors need to be 'formed' from new, but those using a non-polar dielectric do not. If they do, then logic dictates coaxial cables ought to as well. I don't believe they do - but then I don't believe cables have a sound of their own. :sofa:

I agree. Cables cannot conceivably have a sound of their own.

However, same as removing the dirt from the window pane does not add any details to the scenery outside, removing faulty/noisy cables from our system does not add any details to the recorded signal.

[walpurgis]

I don't believe cables have a sound of their own. :sofa:

What cables do have is a negative impact on the system sound. In other words, cables are a necessary evil, but you can't use your gear without them. Those perceived as 'sounding good' are those that have the least discernible detrimental effect.

[walpurgis]

I see Alex has said something quite similar. :)

[Svend N]

What cables do have is a negative impact on the system sound. In other words, cables are a necessary evil, but you can't use your gear without them. Those perceived as 'sounding good' are those that have the least discernible detrimental effect.

+1 After much fussing around with cables, including quite a bit of DIY stuff, I have come around to realizing what Geoff says is true.

Alex, back to your original question...are you using a new cartridge with the Jelco, or one of your two existing ones? Assuming the latter, how many hours did you have on it before swapping it to the new arm? It's my understanding that most or all cartridges need a fair bit of run in time. I suppose how long that would be depends on the cartridge at hand. Could it be that either your Denon or Ortofon were not fully broken in before moving to the Jelco, and what you're hearing is the cartridge changing its sound? Makes sense if both were relatively new before you bought the Jelco. Others here can better advise as to how long a break-in period normally lasts.

[magiccarpetride]

+1 After much fussing around with cables, including quite a bit of DIY stuff, I have come around to realizing what Geoff says is true.

Alex, back to your original question...are you using a new cartridge with the Jelco, or one of your two existing ones? Assuming the latter, how many hours did you have on it before swapping it to the new arm? It's my understanding that most or all cartridges need a fair bit of run in time. I suppose how long that would be depends on the cartridge at hand. Could it be that either your Denon or Ortofon were not fully broken in before moving to the Jelco, and what you're hearing is the cartridge changing its sound? Makes sense if both were relatively new before you bought the Jelco. Others here can better advise as to how long a break-in period normally lasts.

That's a very good point, Svend. Right now I'm using Ortofon OM20 which's been in constant use for the past three weeks or so. By now, I'd think it has already fully burned-in, but may the settling in process takes longer with that particular cartridge?

I remember last year with Denon DL-103 it took between 20 to 50 hours (approximately) until the cartridge settled in and since that point on it completely stopped changing its signature sound. I have already raked up over 50 hours with OM20 (methinks), so maybe it's still settling in?

[Svend N]

I really couldn't say Alex, whether the Ortofon was broken in before you swapped arms. I'm no expert in these matters. Perhaps others can jump in here? How many hours did it have on it before you moved it to the Jelco?

[magiccarpetride]

I really couldn't say Alex, whether the Ortofon was broken in before you swapped arms. I'm no expert in these matters. Perhaps others can jump in here? How many hours did it have on it before you moved it to the Jelco?

Not sure, Svend. I'm now starting to think that maybe the biggest improvement is due to the Nagaoka cables, which seem like a real high quality solution. Comparing Jelco to Rega is unfair, because with Jelco I have the luxury of really good cables feeding the signal, while with Rega the cables were pretty crap.

[Svend N]

Did you install the Nagaoka cables at the same time you installed the Jelco? If not, and done later, then you're likely not hearing burn in, but rather just the effect of the cable swap.

[magiccarpetride]

Did you install the Nagaoka cables at the same time you installed the Jelco? If not, and done later, then you're likely not hearing burn in, but rather just the effect of the cable swap.

Nagaoka installed at the same time as Jelco. That happened last Wednesday. I've started noticing significant change in sound two-three days ago; the sound started getting less analytical and more 'organic', more integrated, with less delineation between instruments, silky smooth and very warm. Absolutely nothing changed in my system since last Wednesday. Either Nagaoka cables are burning-in, or Jelco is bedding in, or my ears are getting accustomed to the brand new sound I obtained six days ago. Or I'm just merrily imagining things...

[Svend N]

Alex, assuming you're not imagining things ;), then in that case it could be cable burn-in (if that's even a thing...personally I've only noticed very subtle if any difference), but more than likely it's your Ortofon breaking in. It seems to me you only had it on the Rega arm for a very short time before you decided it wasn't working, so unlikely that you gave it the 50 to 100 hours it would need to break in before moving it to the Jelco.

[bumpy]

Whoever has a brain where things only get better!!!

Surely its equally likely the things can get worse. So predominantly consistent improvements with time must be attributed to other factors such as burn in.

[Macca]

Whoever has a brain where things only get better!!!

Surely its equally likely the things can get worse. So predominantly consistent improvements with time must be attributed to other factors such as burn in.

I once thought I heard cable burn in but it turned out the speakers were faulty. If there is the possibility of more than one cause for an effect, it's usually the cause that isn't highly improbable or physically impossible. Although in hi-fi people do tend to follow the opposite rule - if you think you hear an effect always attribute it to the least likely explanation or the explanation the people trying to sell it to you give you ( usually the same thing).

My most favourite thing about burn in is products where the vendor offers 30 days return if not satisfied and in the same breath points out that 300 hours of burn in is required before the product will function as specified. So you have to burn it in for 10 hours a day every day then you get just 1 day of listening to it 'as specified' before you have to decide to keep it or send it back.

Or you could pay the vendor extra to burn it in for you on his special 'burn in' machine.

What is it about hi-fi that makes people check their brains in at the door?

[Barry]

In my opinion, all manufacturers of audio electronics should 'burn in' their products before they are sold. That way the purchaser can use the item straight away.

Speakers and cartridges are a different matter however, and one just has to accept that being electromechanical devices the suspension will take a while to bed in.

[LC1979]

What is it about hi-fi that makes people check their brains in at the door?

I was a burn in skeptic, but found it undeniable that my inexpensive D class amp improved over a couple of weeks (a few hours per day, so probably around 15-20 hours). Searching around online later this seemed to be the experience of others also.

I'm no electrical engineer so can't explain why it might be, but it sounded obvious to my ears. I've never experienced it with speaker or IC cables.

[bumpy]

In my opinion, all manufacturers of audio electronics should 'burn in' their products before they are sold. That way the purchaser can use the item straight away.

Speakers and cartridges are a different matter however, and one just has to accept that being electromechanical devices the suspension will take a while to bed in.

Next you'll be wanting car manufacturers to run your car in for you :)

[Macca]

In my opinion, all manufacturers of audio electronics should 'burn in' their products before they are sold. That way the purchaser can use the item straight away.

.

And miss out on the value added 'burn in service' charge? Not likely.

If it hasn't got moving parts it doesn't need to burn in. It might need a brief warm up, lets be generous and say ten minutes. And that's it. Never mind all this ' I've got 200 hours on it and it is still getting better' nonsense. Aside from anything else, how do you know the improvement isn't one of the other components in the system that is still burning in? How are people able to distinguish the DAC burning in from the mains cable burning in?

Maybe they keep a log, so once the DAC has reached 300 hours they know it won't be burning in any more so any additional sonic improvements must be the mains cable burning in? At least that would be logically consistent, but I bet they don't do that. They just know.

Utter bollocks.

[walpurgis]

The 'burn in' argument falls a bit flat when you change well used components over for other well used components and realise that another 'burn in' is happening, when in actual fact, all that's occuring is just (yet another) reacclimatisation to a change in the sound.

[bumpy]

The 'burn in' argument falls a bit flat when you change well used components over for other well used components and realise that another 'burn in' is happening,

Never experienced that - Warm up period yes, but new burn in no.

[DSJR]

There's something to be said for initial 'burn in' I think in the first few hours after construction, although I've never found the sonic change a large one myself. Some makes in the past (Naim) used to drift all over the shop both in the first few minutes' use on the bench, then again subjectively in the first six months, remaining stable for a while and then drifting off into harshness and distortion a very few years later. I suspect they've fixed it by now as modern amps have totally different boards and layout, but so many CB and Olive models almost had a 'timer' built in to them (for apparently genuine reasons according to an electronics design engineer I trust). This latter isn't burning in as such, it's the circuit drifting (DC offsets and so on).

[magiccarpetride]

And miss out on the value added 'burn in service' charge? Not likely.

If it hasn't got moving parts it doesn't need to burn in. It might need a brief warm up, lets be generous and say ten minutes. And that's it. Never mind all this ' I've got 200 hours on it and it is still getting better' nonsense. Aside from anything else, how do you know the improvement isn't one of the other components in the system that is still burning in? How are people able to distinguish the DAC burning in from the mains cable burning in?

Maybe they keep a log, so once the DAC has reached 300 hours they know it won't be burning in any more so any additional sonic improvements must be the mains cable burning in? At least that would be logically consistent, but I bet they don't do that. They just know.

Utter bollocks.

The argument is that, for instance, a brand new cartridge has moving parts that are rigid. Sort of like brand new shoes. You need a few days of walking in new shoes before the initial rigidity goes away and shoes become comfortable. There is a point where cantilever meets the cartridge body and some models have a circle made of some kind of rubber. That part needs to be broken in, allegedly.

OK, so that makes sense to me. And yes, I think I've heard the difference between brand new, rigid cartridge and a broken in cartridge (say, 20 hours of use).

But then again, I am perfectly willing to accept the fact that this perception is merely me getting used to the new sound a new cartridge brings in. So the mystery continues...

[struth]

heard a cart that took about 80 hrs to break in, then sounded great

[Macca]

A cartridge is always going to be changing as the diamond wears, if nothing else. Whether this can really be heard until the point where the tip is so worn the degradation becomes audible is debatable, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. I've heard them wear out but never heard them break in. The same applies to speakers, I've had plenty of new speakers and never heard them get any better than they started out. But again this is debatable.

Methodology is not consistent. If someone gets a brand new component and sits there playing the same bit of music over and over again for however many hours as the burn in happens, and says that they heard it improve over that time, then that at least would be something. The reality is that no-one does that. What happens is we put in the new component, listen to a record, listen to another, listen to another, then we have to do other stuff. Maybe the next day or a few days later we sit and listen again, probably to completely different music. Then another gap. Then more different music.

So how anyone doing that can confidentially claim that the sound has improved (and it always improves) over 2 or 3 hundred hours of listening to all sorts of different music, different production styles, different production values, over weeks or maybe months, I have no idea. Do they have any idea how poor their memory is for this sort of application? How their constantly changing physical and psychological mood will affect how they think and feel about what they are hearing?

[magiccarpetride]

The 'burn in' argument falls a bit flat when you change well used components over for other well used components and realise that another 'burn in' is happening, when in actual fact, all that's occuring is just (yet another) reacclimatisation to a change in the sound.

Or is it that throwing a new piece of the puzzle into the mix triggers the entire system to 'burn in', that is, adjust to the new member of the family?

[magiccarpetride]

Next you'll be wanting car manufacturers to run your car in for you :)

How come new shoes require 'burn in' period, however really high end expensive designer shoes feel perfect from the moment you start wearing them?

[Pharos]

I'm very sceptical about burn in because of our inability to avoid confounding variables.

It is hard as a species, because of our biology to be rigidly of a fixed standpoint with which to evaluate external changes.

We are wired to detect relatively fast changes, and we adapt to the change after a while; habituation.

There is one real case of what might be called burn in; my new ATC 50s were stated as having a woofer which port-resonated at 33Hz until after some time it would drop to 30Hz. That is exactly what happened, suspension softening.

[Firebottle]

The 'burn in' argument falls a bit flat when you change well used components over for other well used components and realise that another 'burn in' is happening, when in actual fact, all that's occuring is just (yet another) reacclimatisation to a change in the sound.

Interesting scenario Geoff.
With foil capacitors in particular I think the performance is not only dependent on the capacitor make-up, but also crucially on the surrounding circuit conditions.
For example the voltage across the capacitor and the circuit impedances on either side of it.

From experience the best sounding capacitor in one circuit (or position) isn't the best in a different circuit.
That's why I give credence to others saying capacitor XYZ is the best, but always privately adding 'in your circuit'.

:)

[paulf-2007]

In my opinion, all manufacturers of audio electronics should 'burn in' their products before they are sold. That way the purchaser can use the item straight away.

Speakers and cartridges are a different matter however, and one just has to accept that being electromechanical devices the suspension will take a while to bed in.
Zu give all their speakers and loose drivers a good workout before selling.

[magiccarpetride]

A cartridge is always going to be changing as the diamond wears, if nothing else. Whether this can really be heard until the point where the tip is so worn the degradation becomes audible is debatable, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. I've heard them wear out but never heard them break in. The same applies to speakers, I've had plenty of new speakers and never heard them get any better than they started out. But again this is debatable.

Methodology is not consistent. If someone gets a brand new component and sits there playing the same bit of music over and over again for however many hours as the burn in happens, and says that they heard it improve over that time, then that at least would be something. The reality is that no-one does that. What happens is we put in the new component, listen to a record, listen to another, listen to another, then we have to do other stuff. Maybe the next day or a few days later we sit and listen again, probably to completely different music. Then another gap. Then more different music.

So how anyone doing that can confidentially claim that the sound has improved (and it always improves) over 2 or 3 hundred hours of listening to all sorts of different music, different production styles, different production values, over weeks or maybe months, I have no idea. Do they have any idea how poor their memory is for this sort of application? How their constantly changing physical and psychological mood will affect how they think and feel about what they are hearing?

That would be easy to check. Get someone who swears that burn-in is really happening to live with a component while it burns-in. And then, after the burn-in period is over and the guy claims that the component had now significantly improved, swap it with the same component, but brand new out of the box (hasn't burned-in). See if the guy can detect any difference in sound. Simple.

[walpurgis]

No. You don't swap it over for a new one. You just tell him you have! :D

[magiccarpetride]

No. You don't swap it over for a new one. You just tell him you have! :D

Who's willing to bet that his response will be "Oh yeah, I can hear plainly how rigid, how uptight the sound becomes as soon as you put in the brand new component that hasn't been burned-in!"

[Macca]

Who's willing to bet that his response will be "Oh yeah, I can hear plainly how rigid, how uptight the sound becomes as soon as you put in the brand new component that hasn't been burned-in!"

If you test him blind I'll bet a pound to a penny he won't do any better than chance. (Although I'll make an exception for speakers and carts as there is a rational reason for burn in there, albeit the effect is likely to be very small and hard to detect).

[Blueflash]

One of the things I have noticed when building or modifying a Dac is that they all sound a bit flat and two dimensional on first switch on.

Although before I connect it to the main system, it would have sat on the bench switched on for a day or so while I wait for anything that can be adjusted stabilises.

When connected to the main system, the first few days are spent with it sounding OK but not ready to just sit there and enjoy the music.

About a week later after leaving it on with a CD playing on repeat it starts to leave the confines of the speakers. Another week the percussion attack gets faster and starts to resolve more ambient clues as to the recording environment.

About a month later, it is ready to go with a wide and deep soundstage, percussive attack and cymbals sounding natural instead of a Click Hiss as opposed to a piece of metal being struck.

After that all it needs is 1/2 hour warm up with a CD playing through it ti bring it up to it`s analogue sounding peak.

You don't believe in warm up ... The manufacturer of my oscilloscope tells me to wait 23 - 30 mins before obtaining an accurate result.