Headphone amps, are they bollocks?

[Floyddroid]

Well?
It may be that my nearly 60 years old ears are passed their best but I have been listening to my headphones via numerous amplification devices lately and it has to be said that of the stand alone headphone amps I have listened to sound no better than on board headphone outputs. Starting to think there is a little snake oil in it all to be honest.:D

[Stratmangler]

The mists in my crystal ball are not clearing to show which devices you have been listening to.
Pray do tell ....

[struth]

and what cans? ive 2 head amps and both are excellent to my ears

[Floyddroid]

The mists in my crystal ball are not clearing to show which devices you have been listening to.
Pray do tell ....

I listened to a Schiit valve headphone amp, a Slee Novo, a little bear valve hpa, my Audiolap 8000C pre amp a vintage Pioneer and Trio integrated amps and a NAD 3020.

[Stratmangler]

I've heard the headphone output from a NAD3020 and it was shite.
My NAD C320BEE is a lot better than its elder stable mate, and both are shown a clean set of heels by my GSP Solo SRGII with PSU1.

Which leads me to conclude that yer ears are fooked :D

[sq225917]

You're going deaf, or using very easily driven phones.

[Floyddroid]

I use Sennheiser HD600 with stock cable. I agree about the 3020. My Audiolab pre amp is pretty good though as was the aged Trio amp borrowed from a pal. According to my most recent hearing test last December they are in pretty good shape. I also use Grado SR225 headphones which are a tad more open and exciting. I remain sceptical about stand alone headphone devices.

[sq225917]

Grado are an easy drive and the fr is awful. Try something neutral. Youll hear the difference

[Stratmangler]

I've not heard the HD-600s.
Are they anything like the HD-650s?
If so, that could well be why you can't hear any real differences between amplifiers.

I have heard HD-560s, and they're far more accurate than the HD-650s.

[Bourneendboy]

I use HD600's and I think I may have come to the same conclusion.
I have used the following with them-
Heed Canamp
Rega Ear
Lehmann Linear
Dragonfly Red
Caiman SEG

The Dragonfly and the SEG have sounded the best and are probably the weakest as far as HP amps go. I have come to the conclusion that the HP amp only offers a volume control to the 600's and doesn't seem to add much else.

[Mike Reed]

I have 650s. Used to listen on Naim Headline powered from 552; it was fine. Sold that, moved to venerable Cyrus One as a stopgap and got a totally different presentation; very good nonetheless. With my newish Myryad Z40 I'm listening to different cans; a world away from what I have been hearing these last 6 years. Sources are Lector valved CDP, Naim 01 tuner and N.A. Dais/12" PU7 with Transfig. Proteus. Oh yes, a lot of tv too.

Conclusion? Headphone amp's make a hell of a difference. I've tried them on my Pioneer amp. in the office and Sony in the kitchen. Functional but that's it. A dedicated h/phone amp to suit your cans is a no-brainer.

[struth]

Stans head amp was supposed to be good with sennys

[Bourneendboy]

Stans head amp was supposed to be good with sennys

It is:)

[Floyddroid]

Stans head amp was supposed to be good with sennys

Had one. Didn't like it.

[Floyddroid]

I have 650s. Used to listen on Naim Headline powered from 552; it was fine. Sold that, moved to venerable Cyrus One as a stopgap and got a totally different presentation; very good nonetheless. With my newish Myryad Z40 I'm listening to different cans; a world away from what I have been hearing these last 6 years. Sources are Lector valved CDP, Naim 01 tuner and N.A. Dais/12" PU7 with Transfig. Proteus. Oh yes, a lot of tv too.

Conclusion? Headphone amp's make a hell of a difference. I've tried them on my Pioneer amp. in the office and Sony in the kitchen. Functional but that's it. A dedicated h/phone amp to suit your cans is a no-brainer.

Still unconvinced.

[Floyddroid]

I've not heard the HD-600s.
Are they anything like the HD-650s?
If so, that could well be why you can't hear any real differences between amplifiers.

I have heard HD-560s, and they're far more accurate than the HD-650s.

The 600's sit between the 650 and 590. The 650 are a lot smoother and to me sounded a little dull where as the 600's are a bit livelier. I sold my 590's on as they were a little raucous for me.

[struth]

try some oppos.. nice cans

[Mike Reed]

Still unconvinced.

Your privilege, but the conclusions drawn from your experience is at odds with, I would suggest, most people's experience. Just as different integrated or pre-power amp's react with speakers differently, so do headphone amp's (which are effectively the same thing) with different headphones. Your Senn's are 300 ohms, like mine, and don't represent a difficult load to your average can amp. though it helps to have a wee bit of welly in the circuit, of course.

[Stratmangler]

The 600's sit between the 650 and 590. The 650 are a lot smoother and to me sounded a little dull where as the 600's are a bit livelier. I sold my 590's on as they were a little raucous for me.

The raucous bit is interesting.
My friend with the NAD3020 has the HD-560s, and he hated them driven by the NAD. Said that they ripped his head off.
We stuck a decent headphone amp in front of them (ie my Graham Slee Solo SRG II) and he was quite literally blown away - the grip and dynamics were something he'd never heard before, and the cans no longer made a sound to rip his head off.

Just to pour a bit more petrol on the flames, I use AKG K702s, because they have a pretty flat response and sound right to me.
The HD-650s on the other hand sounded as thought someone had dropped a blanket on them. To get any detail out of them in the high frequencies I had to turn them up, and then they were too loud and made my ears ring after listening to an album. Could be where the Sennheisers developed a reputation for needing a grippy stage.

I had the opportunity to hear some HD-700s up at wee tee cee's place a few months back - I wish I'd given them a drive ....

[RMutt]

Chris. I’ve got HD 700’s your are more than welcome to try for week or so if you wish.

[Stratmangler]

Chris. I’ve got HD 700’s your are more than welcome to try for week or so if you wish.

Thanks Andrew.
I shall take you up on your kind offer.
It will be most interesting if their response is more akin to that of my AKGs :eyebrows:

[hifi_dave]

Excellent explanation.

[Sherwood]

To answer your question you need to consult an expert on big nuts: the Namibian Ground Squirrel :wow:

These are bollocks!

23182

Geoff

[Sherwood]

The raucous bit is interesting.
My friend with the NAD3020 has the HD-560s, and he hated them driven by the NAD. Said that they ripped his head off.
We stuck a decent headphone amp in front of them (ie my Graham Slee Solo SRG II) and he was quite literally blown away - the grip and dynamics were something he'd never heard before, and the cans no longer made a sound to rip his head off.

Just to pour a bit more petrol on the flames, I use AKG K702s, because they have a pretty flat response and sound right to me.
The HD-650s on the other hand sounded as thought someone had dropped a blanket on them. To get any detail out of them in the high frequencies I had to turn them up, and then they were too loud and made my ears ring after listening to an album. Could be where the Sennheisers developed a reputation for needing a grippy stage.

I had the opportunity to hear some HD-700s up at wee tee cee's place a few months back - I wish I'd given them a drive ....

Did you ever find him again? :scratch:

Geoff

[Stratmangler]

Did you ever find him again? :scratch:

Geoff

Eventually.
He was under a bush down the bottom end of the garden :)

[Werner Berghofer]

Steve,
the stand alone headphone amps I have listened to sound no better than on board headphone outputs. Starting to think there is a little snake oil in it all to be honest.this opinion has a lot of its own. I think the main target audience for headphone amplifiers probably has no typical stereo system (receiver and/or amplifier) available. Typical sources are laptops, tablets and smartphones, and there’s no doubt that stand-alone headphone amplifiers offer a much better performance than the built-in headphone jacks of these source devices.

Werner.

[Sherwood]

Steve,this opinion has a lot of its own. I think the main target audience for headphone amplifiers probably has no typical stereo system (receiver and/or amplifier) available. Typical sources are laptops, tablets and smartphones, and there’s no doubt that stand-alone headphone amplifiers offer a much better performance than the built-in headphone jacks of these source devices.

Werner.

Other instances too where a headphone amp is useful. I have a good hifi setup and recently added a pair of Hifiman HE400i headphones. Irritatingly, they come with a 1.2m cable which required me to sit beside my DAC to use them. Just acquired a pre-owned budget headphone amp which allows me to use a long digital cable from my DAC to the headphone amp on the coffee table beside my listening chair. Problem sorted!

Geoff

[wee tee cee]

Thanks Andrew.
I shall take you up on your kind offer.
It will be most interesting if their response is more akin to that of my AKGs :eyebrows:

Chris,
I found with both 650s and 700s removing the inner foams make a significant difference.

HPAs make a very real difference sonically-Stans Capella is fantastic in the ability to tune it to different cans for sensible money.

Ive had several HPAs all sounded different but really helped to drive cans properly.

Stans SEG has a variable gain switch behind the volume knob that lets you tune the output to your cans of choice.

Let us know how you get on with 700s-they are a tremendous evolution of the 650s-worth every penny IMHO!

[struth]

Other instances too where a headphone amp is useful. I have a good hifi setup and recently added a pair of Hifiman HE400i headphones. Irritatingly, they come with a 1.2m cable which required me to sit beside my DAC to use them. Just acquired a pre-owned budget headphone amp which allows me to use a long digital cable from my DAC to the headphone amp on the coffee table beside my listening chair. Problem sorted!

Geoff

like to get some hifiman cans to see if they are better than the oppos. anyone tried the he350 massdrop?

[twelvebears]

I wasn't convinced of the value of headphone amps until a) I bought my HD800s and b) my Chord Mojo turned up. Now I don't have to listen without because its totally portable.

That said, some devices have half decent output stages, and some headphones are very easy to drive.

[Avinunca1]

I used to have a Heed Canamp until I was offered a straight swap for a DarkVoice 337SE valve headphone amp.
The former was good with my HD580s but the replacement is just amazing. It is a big heavy beast mind.

[archiesdad]

I have a Lehmann HPA I use with my sennys and sony phones, i need a HPA because my Moon amp has no headphone output, so without one I'm knackered.

[struth]

My smsl is superb headphone amp and dac. Used for several hrs a day with mr oppos

[Joe]

I have two sets of Stax headphones and energisers. They sound great, but aren't that comfortable to wear for long stretches.

[mikmas]

Had one. Didn't like it.

Also have Senn HD600 and have to say didn't get on with the Capella either - only had it for a short time though.

In response to your original point, I haven't found a hard and fast rule so far with the 600:

Not at all bad with a self-build CMOY HPA - definitely very good VFM in terms of sound quality.
Not impressed with the direct output from a Quad 405-2 via an (old) QED MA30 switching unit.
Worked very well with a Musical Fidelity V-Can 2 HPA - very well indeed.
Not impressed with the built in outputs of a Teac integrated or a Q-DAC.
Brilliant with my current integrated (a Quad Vena)

Edited to add - best so far without a doubt is an RPi with IQAudio DAC+ output.

[oldius]

I remember when a decent integrated included a phono stage and headphone amp. Now we pay separately for them because they're not included anynore. The world's gone mad I tell ya!

[walpurgis]

I remember when a decent integrated included a phono stage and headphone amp. Now we pay separately for them because they're not included anynore. The world's gone mad I tell ya!

Yes. Some of the better seventies and eighties Japanese integrated amps had surprisingly decent sounding heaphone outputs (and phono stages).

[Ian7633]

I use a Creek OBH11-SE headphone amp, it feeds my HD600 and HD650 very well, really nice, rich sound. The only slight quibble if I had to find one is the power supply is quite a lump but who cares when it's tucked out of the way.

[Yomanze]

I remember when a decent integrated included a phono stage and headphone amp. Now we pay separately for them because they're not included anynore. The world's gone mad I tell ya!

They didn’t include a headphone amp, just a couple of big resistors leading to a headphone socket, which is incidentally why dedicated units sound better due to a lower output impedance.

[Bourneendboy]

Also have Senn HD600 and have to say didn't get on with the Capella either - only had it for a short time though.

In response to your original point, I haven't found a hard and fast rule so far with the 600:

Not at all bad with a self-build CMOY HPA - definitely very good VFM in terms of sound quality.
Not impressed with the direct output from a Quad 405-2 via an (old) QED MA30 switching unit.
Worked very well with a Musical Fidelity V-Can 2 HPA - very well indeed.
Not impressed with the built in outputs of a Teac integrated or a Q-DAC.
Brilliant with my current integrated (a Quad Vena)

Edited to add - best so far without a doubt is an RPi with IQAudio DAC+ output.

Are you running headphones straight off the Pi/iqaudio Dac?

[mikmas]

Are you running headphones straight off the Pi/iqaudio Dac?

I am ... and using a hardware volume controller (for convenience).

When I first got the IQaudio DAC I didn't even bother trying the headphone output, assuming it wouldn't be much cop, but I was pleasantly surprised recently when I gave it a go so have stuck with it.
Use it all the time for late night BBC listening and playing (AIFF) files.

[Bourneendboy]

I am ... and using a hardware volume controller (for convenience).

When I first got the IQaudio DAC I didn't even bother trying the headphone output, assuming it wouldn't be much cop, but I was pleasantly surprised recently when I gave it a go so have stuck with it.
Use it all the time for late night BBC listening and playing (AIFF) files.

Wonder how that would compare to my Dragonfly Red / Pi setup :)

[hal55]

like to get some hifiman cans to see if they are better than the oppos. anyone tried the he350 massdrop?

The massdrop 350s aren't planars, conventional dynamic drivers but I believe they sound good. There was a recent Massdrop offering of a modified 400x which unfortunately did neither Massdrop nor Hifiman any favours. Sounded good, but problems with fasteners breaking and also channel dropouts. Doubt Massdrop will ever offer it again.

[Batty]

I'm using the Massdrop 4xx phones and they blew my AKG Q701 into the weeds, headphone amp is a prototype valve amp, sounds lovely, had a MF X-can v3 previously which did a good job on the Q701s, but not as good as the valve amp.