Hi all ya!

[tunepirate]

New from Sweden, interested in the Beresford dacs!!

I discern music equipment with tune dem..

My mission in the hifi world is to get brands to start to make hifi equipment for music instead of for sound.

For music to sound correct out of a hifi system not only the neutrality, sound stage, bass and the details needs to be in place, but most of all the timing, and musical part of the transparency needs to be in place!

The only brands so far that guarantee you better timing if you pay more, are grado, lejonklou, alpine and Linn... maybe naim.. I want there to be more brands to chose from!

[Jonboy]

Hey and welcome, whats your name we use first names aroung here:)

What system are you using at the moment and what music do you listen to

[Spectral Morn]

Indeed. What's your first name and system ?

Welcome to AOS.


Regards D S D L

[The Vinyl Adventure]

hi, welcome

So what's "tune dem"

[tunepirate]

Hi again!
My name is Cristian and I use
an e-mu 0404 and a denon dvd-1720 for source.

The rest of the system is a Sherwood rd-7500 receiver and Kef Cresta 10
speakers!

All except the sources were picked out together with linn dealers, for being extra ordinary musical for it's price range. I called them up and asked what were the best non-linn non-naim equipment they'd heard when it comes to transparency in the timing area. And I got these recommended-

It was a massive uppgrade, from the onkyo etc stuff i had:)

My dvd was still cool though..

Tune Dem is a method developed by linn to help detect degree of timing errors in the equipment. You can't eliminate timing problems in your system but you can minimize it by carefully chose the best products with help of tune dem.
Tune dem is really just a name for listening how the music is playing together.
The less timing problems in each part the more swing you will enjoy from your whole system!

Cheers!

[Alex_UK]

Hello! Welcome to AoS. Now worried I might have timing problems :eek: - how can I tell?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Were you late for work again Alex?

[Jonboy]

Hello! Welcome to AoS. Now worried I might have timing problems :eek: - how can I tell?

Your car runs like a back of shit

[Themis]

Hi Christian, and welcome. :)

I'm afraid I have no clue of what you're talking about when you mention "timing", as I'm still with my '70s way of seeing hifi things, apart from audio streaming, of course... ;)
But I will try to understand, I promise.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Christian and welcome

So do you aspire to a full Linn system one day !

i have been to a few Linn dem's in my time ' and of course the tune is important in a piece of music ' but i can follow a tune quite easily on a cheap tranny radio ' when i look to buy more expensive hifi kit ' i want more than just a good tuneful sound .

I want my system to try an convey the illusion of musicians performing in front of me ' an impossible task ' yes it probably is but i heard a Horn based system at Scalford that got very close ! and i can tell you it was at times quite breathtaking .

[tunepirate]

Hi Christian and welcome

So do you aspire to a full Linn system one day !

i have been to a few Linn dem's in my time ' and of course the tune is important in a piece of music ' but i can follow a tune quite easily on a cheap tranny radio ' when i look to buy more expensive hifi kit ' i want more than just a good tuneful sound .

I want my system to try an convey the illusion of musicians performing in front of me ' an impossible task ' yes it probably is but i heard a Horn based system at Scalford that got very close ! and i can tell you it was at times quite breathtaking .

You'll get a lot more than just good tune from new linn-equipment.
But I've been to many linnstores myself and wonder why it sounds so bad compared to having the things at home.. quite crappy listening rooms often i think, weird reflections, what you would never get at home in a normal living room.

In order to get the feeling that the musicians are performing in front of you, you need to get the musicality correct. Because that's one of the important aspects of going from a blurry playback to an open window, but of course you need resolution, details, soundstage and punch as well for that.

What's the difference between sound and music? It's timing pace rhythm..

What's the difference between a good and a bad band... timing, that the musicians are playing together, swing!.

It's the same between different hifi equipment, on many stereos the band isn't playing nearly as tightly as they were in the recording studio. Phase shift or whatever is the technical explanation thing behind this, timing differences between different frequency, but also if the speakers are not placed correct( I have mine tuned in on the millimeter), you'll get the sound reflections in the room disturbing the timing, and making it less an open window to the music.

Many people even are having their sub woofer coming milliseconds after and they're noticing anything, and is just leave the room with headache:) And they still think their system is transparent:) Well it might be quite transparent in the tone but, not in the essence of the music, the playing together. How many know that if the sub is lagging after the drummer will not sound as good as he was in the recording studio.
And if there are timing distortions, the sound is crinkled in some way.
Even diffrent cables are crinkling the sound in diffrent ways:), and again, Linn black is the best I've heard here. I've been doing some blind testing together with a friend here.

Another problem with that you want the musicians to sound if they are standing in front of you is that, everyone on the stage have their separate mic cable going to their instrument, so through the mixer if not panned exactly everyone will sound if they're standing in the middle. So the soundstage is an artificial creation, because it's not recorded that way. Except if you don't record it with only two microphones, from the audience. Buth then again if it's a rock concert you'll get lots of weird echoes..
But you probably already new that..

If you'd had a 100 00€ preiced linn equipment for two years and then went back and listened to that horn equipment, you probably would think, where the heck the music went, even tough the sound probably was nice:)

Themis: The tune method and the PRAT were developed back in the 70's some time.. i think this link explains some of it..
http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

[The Vinyl Adventure]

blimey... you do like you linn kit dont you.
even i dont think its all its cracked up to be and i got linn in my system! the linn black cable didnt work well at all in my system either ... but there we go like i said on that other thread and would highlight again here - different strokes for different folks.

[tunepirate]

blimey... you do like you linn kit dont you.
even i dont think its all its cracked up to be and i got linn in my system! the linn black cable didnt work well at all in my system either ... but there we go like i said on that other thread and would highlight again here - different strokes for different folks.

I wouldn't agree for a second. To say that less musical system is preferd for some people is like saying that some prefer a more muddled sound. That's just stupid, who would want bad, when there is good to get.

Of course different people prefer different colouring, but most people agree that neutral is the way to go, if one want to listen to a broad variety of music. Most of those people do not understand that musicality is an important part of neutrality.

when people learn to hear differences in musical flow, they wouldn't go with just any.
The only reason people buy equipment from brands that do not put high priority in musicality is because they can't tell the difference, and they've missed the most important factor(this goes for 90% of the hifi people out there). Many people have this idéa that different systems can't vary in swing/timing. Many of these people end up with having their systems turned of most of the time.

I don't have a linn system yet, that was just an example:)
But I hopefully will get one, one day.

Why didn't the black work in you system?

[tunepirate]

These are the brands that I know of that put high value in musicality.

Rega
System fidelity
Naim
Linn
Grado
Alpine
Sennheiser?
Musical fidelity?
Beresford?

These are the only(sadly) few brands that guarantee you, that if you pay more, you'll get more.
Linn
Alpine
Grado
Lejonklou
(Naim)

[tunepirate]

Hello! Welcome to AoS. Now worried I might have timing problems :eek: - how can I tell?

We all have:)
Do you think your system makes you wanna dance or does it give you headache, after some time on. Does it sound like the musicians are having a good time on the stage,, does it sound light and swiftly...


What parts do you have in you system?

[Marco]

Lol! Welcome to AOS, Cristian - I'm sure you'll have lots of fun here ;)

Do you post on pfm under a different name?

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I wouldn't agree for a second. To say that less musical system is preferd for some people is like saying that some prefer a more muddled sound. That's just stupid, who would want bad, when there is good to get.

Of course different people prefer different colouring, but most people agree that neutral is the way to go, if one want to listen to a broad variety of music. Most of those people do not understand that musicality is an important part of neutrality.

when people learn to hear differences in musical flow, they wouldn't go with just any.
The only reason people buy equipment from brands that do not put high priority in musicality is because they can't tell the difference, and they've missed the most important factor(this goes for 90% of the hifi people out there). Many people have this idéa that different systems can't vary in swing/timing. Many of these people end up with having their systems turned of most of the time.


im just a bit confused by your assumptions that people would always go back to listening to linn after they listened to anything else. there are loads of people on this site with vast knowledge and experience of loads of equipment including linn.. but very few have any linn kit. i actually bought an external dac to add to my linn majik ds as by its self i found it less musically involving


I don't have a linn system yet, that was just an example:)
But I hopefully will get one, one day.

Why didn't the black work in you system?

in my system they didnt apear to be quite as neutral aand definately not as trasparent as the mark grant cables i now use

[Stratmangler]

Hi Cristian

I can tell that you like your distortion to sound in a particular way.
I prefer my distortion to be more neutral - that's not to say that my kit is incapable of "keeping time" as you put it, it's just that my kit replays rhythm when it is present in the recording.

What instrument do you play ?

[tunepirate]

Hi Cristian

I can tell that you like your distortion to sound in a particular way.
I prefer my distortion to be more neutral - that's not to say that my kit is incapable of "keeping time" as you put it, it's just that my kit replays rhythm when it is present in the recording.

What instrument do you play ?

This is what I'm trying to say, tune dem, is a method to discern wheter the rhythm is coming when it was recorded or not.
Most people who think their equipemtn is neutral does not have an eqipment that is true to the original recording in the timing. It took me a while to learn it, but when me and my friend finally did, we realised how crappy his 1100£ pre/amp system was and he got a better one from system fidelity for £200 (sa-250)and a new world opened up for us.
I don't know what system you have, but some of the systems that the transparent/neutral-hifi people recommend in sweden, i wouldn't let it in through my door even if i got it for free.

If you had for example a majik DS, and then switched back to your source you would probably notice how things, weren't as in place as you thought.
Unless you have a very special dac or something that is very musical.
Linn has been researching and working on getting the timing as linear as possible for the last 40years... That's their vision, so it's nothing strange that they're best at it.

Linn sources are famous for being all round working with many different kinds of music, that is because it doesn't favour one kind of music by adding something, especially in the timing. Their older products can be a bit colouring in the tone sometimes I've heard, but still low colouring in the timing.

Hamish: What dac are you using... ?
Why are you wasting a pricey majik DS on using it as a transport...?
or maybe it's not a waste, have you expeience that it is better than many cheap transports?

IT's unusual that dac's are more muiscal involving beacuse they are limited by the clocks. The send clock and the receive clock need to be very close in speed to not get big losses in the data,it's millions bits per second, so it's very critical.. beacuse as you probably know there's no errer correcting protocol in the spdif transfer. But I've heard the Majik DS is a very good transport.
The DS uses error correcting protocol because it's achieving it's data via tcp/ip, that's one reason that it many times is superior to dac's. Or actually there's no linn dealer that i've spoken to that have ever heard of any other brand achiving this level of correctness in the timing as the DS's.(except for the new naim dac, which is at majik DS level)
The other thing is that the implementation is very good, to achieve more correct timing. The cuircut need to be in a good balance..

[tunepirate]

to clear something out..
Timing has nothing to do with the speed of the playback, it's about the relationsships between the diffrent intruments. Which in technical terms is about frequencies not being separeted in time by fase shits and things..
and probably other modulations that i don't understand... but hear.

Here's another way to put it!

"However, nearly everyone else now uses the 'T' in PRaT to stand for 'Timing'. Timing is not the same thing as Rhythm or Pace, but it is related. Timing is the accuracy of reproduction of a wavefront comprising many frequencies. Hence a strike of stick on ride cymbal simultaneous with the other stick on the floor-tom should arrive at the hifi listener's ears in the same relationship as they would had the listener been sitting in front of the drum kit rather than their loudspeakers. The most sinful adulterers of timing tend to be multi-way loudspeakers. One glance at the phase graph of a single drive unit would suggest this is already a problem for 1 driver, but combine 2 drive units with a crossover whose filter is derived by phase shift and we realise how tough a task it really is to make music in the home. " (http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html)

[Alex_UK]

separeted in time by fase shits and things..


I don't think that's even legal in the UK! ;) If anyone even suggests shitting on my fase they are in big trouble!

I'm afraid I don't have an analytical ear enough to be able to recognise what you are describing, but I'm a bit worried you may be Head of Marketing for Linn... you're not, are you? ;)

[Marco]

He's defo got it bad, Alex! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

An opportunity has been missed on this thread, big time. Tunepirate is on the right lines but has much to learn. The tune dem is indeed the most effective method to evaluate hi-fi.

A transistor radio may allow you to follow one melodic thread at a time. A good hi-fi system will allow you to follow the melodies of backing instruments as well as enable you to hear their true purpose within the whole mix.

A Linn system is good in terms of musical involvement, I.e: allowing different melodic threads to be heard both separately and as a cohesive whole but they are not the very best even if you use their criteria.

Our AOS system at Scalford was described as being the most musical by someone who uses the tune dem method. Our system was up against some Linn/Naim systems and was still more tuneful.
Here at AOS the game is to out-tune Linn and out-PR&T Naim with added harmonic structure, texture, tonal colour and soundstage as the icing on the cake.

Welcome to the true Flat Earth where there is more to life than Linn and Naim.

Oh, horns can be incredibly phase coherent as can valves.

Right chaps we have a duty to wean this guy off Linn/Naim in his noble pursuit of fidelity to the music itself.

[Steve Toy]

PS: looking at your list of approved tune-dem brands I see one notable failure (imho). Musical Fidelity.

I also see one notable omission: Densen.

[The Grand Wazoo]

My earth's flatter than your earth?


Here at AOS the game is ...........

.............I thought there are a few folk here who are happy with at least a few gentle bumps.

[Alex_UK]

The problem though, is that for the vast majority of albums in my collection, the only point of reference I have is my own - that is, I have not heard the artist perform live, and I have not heard the work played on another system. So does that suddenly mean that albums I adore are trash if played on someone else's system, or rubbish (to me) albums spring to life played on a superior system? Sometimes I feel we think far too hard about all this, look for problems and theories where there aren't any, and generally don't spend enough time immersing ourselves in the emotional message from the music that any half-decent system should be able to communicate. Just my ramblings, after too much vino on a school night! :)

I guess I will always be a music over boxes kind of guy.

[Steve Toy]

Chris for bumps see "icing on the cake" above.

[The Grand Wazoo]

The problem though, is that for the vast majority of albums in my collection, the only point of reference I have is my own - that is, I have not heard the artist perform live

Well, I've never been at a gig & had it spoiled because I noticed the bassist had an amp that was 'lagging behind' the drummer.
I don't see any particular finesse in stage electronics or speakers.

[Spectral Morn]

PS: looking at your list of approved tune-dem brands I see one notable failure (imho). Musical Fidelity.

I also see one notable omission: Densen.

Agreed, at one time yes, but not for quite a few years. Not since Tri-Vista (some might say Nu-Vista. For me its Tri-Vista)...after that it all became about detail and vanishing distortion levels, and not imho/e musicality.

Regards D S D L

[Barry]

The problem though, is that for the vast majority of albums in my collection, the only point of reference I have is my own - that is, I have not heard the artist perform live, and I have not heard the work played on another system. So does that suddenly mean that albums I adore are trash if played on someone else's system, or rubbish (to me) albums spring to life played on a superior system? Sometimes I feel we think far too hard about all this, look for problems and theories where there aren't any, and generally don't spend enough time immersing ourselves in the emotional message from the music that any half-decent system should be able to communicate. Just my ramblings, after too much vino on a school night! :)

I guess I will always be a music over boxes kind of guy.

Well said Alex!

I've never fully understood the Linn 'tune' thing (Linn's test used to be: "can you hum or whistle along to the tune?") Yes of course you can, if the music permits it !

Neither have I understood the Naim PRAT thing, despite reading several lengthy web postings. Can someone explain? Again, the test used to be: "do you want to tap your toes, feet, snap your fingers or just generaly feel the urge to boogie round the room?" Music and mood permitting - yes of course.

Yours in confusion

[Steve Toy]

Are you able to follow different musicians in a recording and then write the scores for each?

Or at least follow, say the bassline or a particular backing musician and understand their purpose within the whole piece of music.

Melodies and rhythms follow patterns. Can you more easily identify any pattern with one system or component compared to another?

Some systems lay these patterns bare, others leave a muddle for your brain to decipher and perhaps fill in the gaps according to your knowledge of the piece or your imagination.

The muddle may even be tonally accurate and image well but the subtleties of the interplay between musicians may be lost within it.

[Steve Toy]

The process of amplifying live music at a concert is never going to mess up the timing (although the room acoustic may) because each instrument is being amplified separately so the phase errors associated with hi-fi systems reproducing and ampllifying everything aren't likely to occur.

I have heard the phenomenon of lagging and muddled basslines many times with poorly set up or poorly matched hi-fi.


The best example from memory was trying to play a Paul Van Dyke dance track through a mid-priced Rotel home cinema system (amp was a grand) and DVD player (£700) ten years ago. It was a friend's system being demonstrated in a hi-fi shop.
Turning up the bass (you can't do that at a concert either) made the problem worse and the lagging bass was exacerbated. The remedy came in the form of a dedicated Rotel CD player, the RCD971 costing £500. Rotel 2 channel stuff was good for pace, rhythm and timing in its day at its price point.

As for live amplfied music, if a bass player's amp lagged behind his fret work he wouldn't be able to play the bloody thing! But I have heard such lag and muddle in the audience where the room acoustics were poor and the fretwork of all the guitarists failed to resemble what I heard.

I think the glibness and obtuseness on this thread is unnecessary as is the transistor radio old chestnut. Remember that the tranny radio will only reproduce maybe one tune at a time. A tune dem will often focus on other melodic threads in the mix that the tinny tranny will miss.

The OP has the right idea, a better one than some of our more regular members. However, other brands and approaches have been identified that beat Linn and Naim at their own game with added extras.

Anthony's amps enable you to hear all the melodic threads separately, laying them all bare better than anything by Linn or Naim with added immediacy, delicacy and texture to every instrument at the same time as allowing the whole performance to wash over you if you prefer. They do this because they possess the requisite, speed, authority, control, transient response and there are no phase errors between different frequencies including the audible and well beyond.

Duncan's DACs (and the Audiocom Sony) have similarly excellent timing acuity that should enable you to tap your feet to an easily identifiable rhythm.


In this regard, not all hi-fi is created equal, so don't go kidding yourselves!

[tunepirate]

I don't think that's even legal in the UK! ;) If anyone even suggests shitting on my fase they are in big trouble!

I'm afraid I don't have an analytical ear enough to be able to recognise what you are describing, but I'm a bit worried you may be Head of Marketing for Linn... you're not, are you? ;)


Rotflol :lol::doh:


Hehe the thing about tune dem is that anyone can lern it, it's just that one need a couple of demos to learn what it sounds like when the music is increasing or decreasing. Many Linn stores have small Tune Dem schools..Why not just go and get a demo for fun. Bring equipment from some other brand, and blind test them:) Some might not want to agree becauos that can be a stressfull situation for them, because of the pressure to perform. But they might help you out to compare.. maybe blind test you. That's what my local linn store usually does. If the differences are big, it's easier to get a feeling for it than when comparing cables..

No I'm not loyal to linn in anyway, I just share their way of seeing things, if someone makes a better product i might go for that brand..

[Marco]

Hi Cristian,

Have you heard any (really good - as in properly designed) valve amps and compared them to your Linn stuff? :)

Marco.

[tunepirate]

PS: looking at your list of approved tune-dem brands I see one notable failure (imho). Musical Fidelity.

I also see one notable omission: Densen.

Interesting. thank you, that was my only suggestion that I havent heard or got confirmed. I just heard that they had one integrated amplifier that was good in it's time.. I think it was called tempest... so it was a guess..that's why I put the question-mark there.

Cool I've never heard of Densen. Do you get more music if you pay more, like with linn?

If that's your mission, how comes so many of your followers are so ignorant to musicality/tune dem/prat/flat earth?

Don't you think linn has plenty harmonic structure, texture, correct tonal colour and sound-stage in their newer products??

Sounds interesting, if your products really out-prat linn/naim.. I'm the next one in line to spread the word! But i'm not totally convinced, as you know everyone likes to claim their products are the most musical...

But I hope I can get hold of a beresford dac soon, too bad I just wasted to much money on old linn-equipment:)

But thanks for an interesting answer, you at least got me much more interested!

What homepages can I visit to see your products, more than the beresford site?!
Are there any places in sweden one can get a demo??

[tunepirate]

Hi Cristian,

Have you heard any (really good - as in properly designed) valve amps and compared them to your Linn stuff? :)

Marco.
I got my first linn amp yesterday.. ..
No I haven't heard any valve amps at all actually..
There are thousands of different brands out there so, and I guess an valve amp can sound horrible in musicality and also awesome, depending on the constructors knowledge of these things.
but if I get a recommendation by some one who says a specific tube amp is good I might go and try it. I don't believe the tube or the none tub is the thing, it's the implementation of it.

[tunepirate]

Steve Toy, can you list the most musical low cost system parts you know off?
Would be awesome if you wrote the best:
Cd player, Integrated amp, amp, dac, pre amp and speakers.
So I know what next to compare to as an alternative to second hand linn.

[Marco]

I got my first linn amp yesterday.. ..
No I haven't heard any valve amps at all actually..
There are thousands of different brands out there so, and I guess an valve amp can sound horrible in musicality and also awesome, depending on the constructors knowledge of these things.
but if I get a recommendation by some one who says a specific tube amp is good I might go and try it. I don't believe the tube or the none tub is the thing, it's the implementation of it.

Hi Cristian,

Good answer! Just popping out now, but I'll come back to you more on this later :)

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

and I guess an valve amp can sound horrible in musicality and also awesome, depending on the constructors knowledge of these things.
but if I get a recommendation by some one who says a specific tube amp is good I might go and try it. I don't believe the tube or the none tub is the thing, it's the implementation of it.

Absolutely!

[Steve Toy]

Low cost?

Sugden A21

Anything by Rega

The Cairn range of CD players is good.

The Beresford Caiman is unbeatable at the price especially with the PSU upgrade.

As for speakers you can't go wrong with Focal.

[chris@panteg]

Glib and obtuse ' its nice to know what you really think ' steve !

[Steve Toy]

Glib and obtuse applies to some of the responses but not necessarily the respondents.

The old transistor radio chestnut in response to notions of a system being able to carry a tune was first used back in 2001 by a chap who used to post as Mr Pig. Nice guy as it happens but when I hear the tranny radio argument I have suspicions that the person using such argument has a tune-challenged system!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Hamish: What dac are you using... ?
Why are you wasting a pricey majik DS on using it as a transport...?



i bought is an an integrated streamer to go with my naim nac82/hicap/nap180 - with which it sounded very good




or maybe it's not a waste, have you expeience that it is better than many cheap transports?


not within my system. i like it as a streamer and am now very pleased with the sound i get through it in combination with the dac i am using


i have bought the equpment that i own based on experienceing a greater more acurate and musical performance at a much lower price than what i am sure i would have to spend on linn/naim kit to atain the same level

[Marco]

The old transistor radio chestnut in response to notions of a system being able to carry a tune was first used back in 2001 by a chap who used to post as Mr Pig.


Who's now a regular contributor on The Crossover Network ;)

Marco.

[Barry]

Are you able to follow different musicians in a recording and then write the scores for each? Yes and No (I can't read or write music)

Or at least follow, say the bassline or a particular backing musician and understand their purpose within the whole piece of music. Yes and No (I never ask myself "what is the purpose?" when listening to music).

Melodies and rhythms follow patterns. Can you more easily identify any pattern with one system or component compared to another? Don't know, I've never tried to do that on a systematic basis

Some systems lay these patterns bare, others leave a muddle for your brain to decipher and perhaps fill in the gaps according to your knowledge of the piece or your imagination.

The muddle may even be tonally accurate and image well but the subtleties of the interplay between musicians may be lost within it. The only time I'm really aware of the interplay between musicians is when I see them performing live.

I think I understand where your coming from Steve and I appreciate your comments. It fits the heirarchy of: beat, rhythm, melody, harmony that you have mentioned elsewhere as important to you. I don't seem to hear it - or rather I don't worry about it, so maybe it's not important to me compared to say tonal purity, imaging and detail.

Regards
'A regular Member'

[Steve Toy]

Fair comment Barry. The purpose of a given backing musician becomes immediately obvious on a very good system that majors on pitch, rhythm and timing.

[chris@panteg]

Steve ' i get your point ' but i just feel the ' Tunedem ' is nothing more than a cynical marketing ploy ' developed by a man who is quite simply the best in the business at this sort of thing .

Regarding the Tranny radio remark i admit its not an entirely convincing argument on my part ' i was referring to the basic ' main theme in a given piece of music .

Ok how about a little test for you ' do you have Mozart's Jupiter symphony ( no 41) ?

In the last movement ' there are 4 theme's which are developed and explored and right at the end Mozart lump's all of these together as one whole ' its an extraordinary work of unparalleled Genius ' and a real challenge for any hifi system to make sense of it all .

To be honest i am not sure if my current set up can do justice to the Jupiter ' think i am going to play it tomorrow and find out ? its been a while since i played it .

[technobear]

Transistor radios, at least in days of old, always had single drivers without crossovers. This largely accounts for why they sound so musical and coherent and have such good timing.

Crossovers are evil.

It is possible to design a crossover such that the overlapping drivers are in phase with each other but the absolute phase of the sounds being reproduced throughout the crossover region will vary wildly compared with the phase of the low bass or high treble. The higher the order of the crossover, the worse the anomalies. The phase diagram for a speaker with 24dB/octave crossovers is a pretty alarming sight.

If only the manufacturers had spent the last 50 years perfecting the single driver instead of trying to give us better and better "speakerettes", we might have a perfect speaker by now.

Actually there are a few manufacturers who have broken this mould. Supravox, PHY-HP, Fertin, Fostex, Audio Nirvana, Zu, AER, Feastrex and a handful of others.

If you really want to hear what musicality is and what being able to follow the tune means and what coherence is and what timing is then you need to hear a good single driver speaker.

In my humble opinion :lolsign:

[tunepirate]

Technobear:Good word on crossovers there !!

I think a linn spokesman from the mother ship in Scotland recently, at a visit in sweden, stated that crossovers really had been a problem in making them really good but that they quite recently (I guess the last years) have made great improvement. So that the leap between active and passive has decreased.

Has anyone heard the small (plastic) speaker called unik. It's not so much of fullness in tone or sound-stage or what ever but the swing music-engagement is incredible. And it only gets better with the majik 109 and so on..

So far there seem to be some flat-earthers here:) Which I like, and you guys probably are several more!

Steve toy&Marc: Do you realise there's always a bit more musical transparency to get?
You're saying that there are other brands that outprat naim and linn.. But i doubt that. And you're talking about dac:s..
You probably know how hard it is to get the clocks syncing correctly, if not impossible, so It's never going to be bit perfect, unless it's a pull system, like Linn DS where the data is confirmed by a tcp/ip protcol.

But are you saying that there are dac:s that out-prat klimax ds.. The first digital source ever to come close to a top-lp12.. this is the part where my doubt comes in.. have you guys really got it, or maybe you've just not tested. Or maybe you're right.. but why is noone talking about this in the FE forums, since I'm used to a having a lot of people who understand tune dem, being open to other brands.

What transport do you use in such a system?
Is a copper dac more musical than klimax ds?

Or are you skipping those last percentage to improve the sound-stage and the details instead?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'm good mates with one of the biggest if not biggest linn dealer and even he doesn't talk about linn like this Christian!

[Steve Toy]

You need to read Hamish's comments on the Copper DAC. He stated that the midrange was recessed with the Majik DS - that's where the music is.


Do you realise there's always a bit more musical transparency to get?

Yes. You also need to look at your ancilliaries for extracting even more music from your system. Having a dedicated electricity supply with its own earth makes a significant improvement to tunefulness and dynamics.

Also the way you address issues of microphony and resulting time-smear is critical. For this you need a support that grounds vibration both internal from power supplies, motors etc as well as the airborne and that transmitted via the walls and floor. You also need a star-earthed mains block to decouple the vibration from the wall where your mains electric sockets are situated.
The result is more immediacy, better dynamics and more faithful reproduction of harmonic structure of notes.

[tunepirate]

You need to read Hamish's comments on the Copper DAC. He stated that the midrange was recessed with the Majik DS - that's where the music is.



Yes. You also need to look at your ancilliaries for extracting even more music from your system. Having a dedicated electricity supply with its own earth makes a significant improvement to tunefulness and dynamics.

Also the way you address issues of microphony and resulting time-smear is critical. For this you need a support that grounds vibration both internal from power supplies, motors etc as well as the airborne and that transmitted via the walls and floor. You also need a star-earthed mains block to decouple the vibration from the wall where your mains electric sockets are situated.
The result is more immediacy, better dynamics and more faithful reproduction of harmonic structure of notes.

I'm listening..
Would be cool if Lejonklou, a swedish manufactor who top test things with tune dem/listening for musical engagement , with a very skilled ear, cold hear this copper dac. If it's better than the DS range he surely would let the swedish linn-forum know.

I can't since I don't own a DS yet.

Is this Stan Beresford aware of prat/tune dem?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

A bit of perspective is required here the majik da and copper dac cost me £2000 the klimax is £9000!
I'm not saying the it's better than the klimax, I haven't done the comparison...
I am saying the majik ds and copper dac is better the majik ds alone in my system
I own a majik ds, I have it in my house in my hifi that surly gives me an advantage in deciding how good it is, yet you seem to be saying it is better than I know it is based on demos in very different systems!
do you have any concept of 'sytem synergy'
you have never heard a valve amp, never mind my valve amps. Have you heard of tube distinctions?
How can you make the asumption that i would prefer an all linn system to what I have when you haven't heard my hifi or an all linn system in my house.
Quoteig facts about the technicals of how linn kit works means nothing to me, until you have heard every single hifi owned by every single member of this forum and compared it to a linn system in the house you have no right to comment the way you do. I accept that you have a preference for linn/naim ... But it still remains a preferance, nothing more!
Just because you prefer linn doesn't mean it is right! I like my hifi to portray The music acuratly, some people like hifi to sound warmer - that might not be right to you but it is what they like - it's not for you to decide or tell them they are wrong!
You sound brain washed, like you have been listening to to many people that have been trying to sell you expensive hifi! Tune dem might be important - I have no idea - I listen to all aspects of what my hifi does and try to hear how close it is to what I persieve to be real life.
There are a lot of people here with a lot of experience, I would recomend climbing down off this high horse of yours and ferther listening to what people say. I have learnt a hell of a lot since I came to this forum and now have a system that way outperforms the linn/naim system I started with ... And If you heard it you would agree, and it would fullfill your criteria for good sound!!

As for stan and prat and tune dem ... Maybe, maybe not, he does make dacs, using his ears to decide if they sound good or not and sells them to 100's of people who also think they sound good.. That is what matters, so why don't you find out if one would be good to your ears by buying one!

[technobear]

Christian, you can add Lavardin to your list of manufacturers who understand the importance of timing.

A listen to a Lavardin IT or IS Reference might put the performance of Linn gear into perspective for you.

Glenn Croft must also know a thing or two about timing because his amps seem to be very good in this regard.

[Themis]

Completely agree with Chris on Lavardin and Croft. ;)

[Ali Tait]

Transistor radios, at least in days of old, always had single drivers without crossovers. This largely accounts for why they sound so musical and coherent and have such good timing.

Crossovers are evil.

It is possible to design a crossover such that the overlapping drivers are in phase with each other but the absolute phase of the sounds being reproduced throughout the crossover region will vary wildly compared with the phase of the low bass or high treble. The higher the order of the crossover, the worse the anomalies. The phase diagram for a speaker with 24dB/octave crossovers is a pretty alarming sight.

If only the manufacturers had spent the last 50 years perfecting the single driver instead of trying to give us better and better "speakerettes", we might have a perfect speaker by now.

Actually there are a few manufacturers who have broken this mould. Supravox, PHY-HP, Fertin, Fostex, Audio Nirvana, Zu, AER, Feastrex and a handful of others.

If you really want to hear what musicality is and what being able to follow the tune means and what coherence is and what timing is then you need to hear a good single driver speaker.

In my humble opinion :lolsign:

Agreed.Full rangers have a coherency that multi-driver speakers lack.

[tunepirate]

A bit of perspective is required here the majik da and copper dac cost me £2000 the klimax is £9000!
I'm not saying the it's better than the klimax, I haven't done the comparison...
I am saying the majik ds and copper dac is better the majik ds alone in my system
I own a majik ds, I have it in my house in my hifi that surly gives me an advantage in deciding how good it is, yet you seem to be saying it is better than I know it is based on demos in very different systems!
do you have any concept of 'sytem synergy'
you have never heard a valve amp, never mind my valve amps. Have you heard of tube distinctions?
How can you make the asumption that i would prefer an all linn system to what I have when you haven't heard my hifi or an all linn system in my house.
Quoteig facts about the technicals of how linn kit works means nothing to me, until you have heard every single hifi owned by every single member of this forum and compared it to a linn system in the house you have no right to comment the way you do. I accept that you have a preference for linn/naim ... But it still remains a preferance, nothing more!
Just because you prefer linn doesn't mean it is right! I like my hifi to portray The music acuratly, some people like hifi to sound warmer - that might not be right to you but it is what they like - it's not for you to decide or tell them they are wrong!
You sound brain washed, like you have been listening to to many people that have been trying to sell you expensive hifi! Tune dem might be important - I have no idea - I listen to all aspects of what my hifi does and try to hear how close it is to what I persieve to be real life.
There are a lot of people here with a lot of experience, I would recomend climbing down off this high horse of yours and ferther listening to what people say. I have learnt a hell of a lot since I came to this forum and now have a system that way outperforms the linn/naim system I started with ... And If you heard it you would agree, and it would fullfill your criteria for good sound!!

As for stan and prat and tune dem ... Maybe, maybe not, he does make dacs, using his ears to decide if they sound good or not and sells them to 100's of people who also think they sound good.. That is what matters, so why don't you find out if one would be good to your ears by buying one!


Hi i think you got me wrong, i'm really interested in testing the tube amps that are being proposed in this forum, especially now when I've realised some of you seemingly do know how to discern the level of musical flow, timing and tune. But the normal is that if a person does not have a knowledge of these things 98% of the time he is not going to chose a system that is all the way optimised for giving the best musical performance. there for i don't need to hear most of the systems since, many manufacturers don't even claim to have good muscial flow, they simply don't know what it is. It's this specific parameter musical flow I'm going after, because I consider it the most important priority when it comes to creating hifi, choosing hifi. I use the metod "tune method" to discern this, but really it's just about listening how tightly correctly things are playing together, and this part of the transparency also increases the feeling of swing, toe tapping, and more etc.

In this specific area linn is one of the best manufacturers in the world together with Lejonklou and Naim. Now that I hear that some of you guys have discovered that even more brands are in the top f ex anthony's copper dac together with some tube amps you are talking about, I'm very happy to have entered this forum. Because all good competition is good and probably will lower the cost of the linn' performance per pound as well.

And about the klimax DS thing, I wasn't refering to your test, I think it was Steve Toy that said, that there are equipment that out-prat linn in the top league.
or maybe he meant in the that specifik price range, I don't know.. I had the impression that he meant over all, which would mean that there are equipment that's better than klimax ds in the musical flow, which I doubt..

[tunepirate]

Ok list updated, please help me comment on it, if you know for example only the amps form croft are good but not the cd-players. let me know.

Alpine
AnthonyTD :: Distinctive valve amps
Densen
Duncan, tubehunter :: DACs
Cain :: Cd-players
Croft :: Amps
Grado :: Headphones and pick-ups
Focal
Lavardin
Lejonklou
Linn
Musical fidelity (used to be)
Naim
Rega
Sherwood :: rd-75** series are very good for given price, their more expensive series sound worse
Sugden
System fidelity
Beresford?
Sennheiser?

[The Grand Wazoo]

You can be sure that the CD players from Croft are not as good as the amps!
In fact, they're so bad it's untrue!

......but they are transparent - well they must be - I've never seen one!

[tunepirate]

You can be sure that the CD players from Croft are not as good as the amps!
In fact, they're so bad it's untrue!

......but they are transparent - well they must be - I've never seen one!

hehe, that's real transparency:)

*It was an example:p

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Just for clarification the copper dac is a Williams audio dac made by a member here called tubehunter... He makes then as a hobby, he just happens to be quite good at it..
Anthonytd makes the tube distinctions valve kit that I, marco, steve toy and steve (electric beach) have

[tunepirate]

Just for clarification the copper dac is a Williams audio dac made by a member here called tubehunter... He makes then as a hobby, he just happens to be quite good at it..
Anthonytd makes the tube distinctions valve kit that I, marco, steve toy and steve (electric beach) have

Ok cool how much he taking to make an amp for this fella?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Anthony? Ask him your self, he is called anthonytd on here...

[The Grand Wazoo]

Christian,
Can I offer you a little friendly advice?
Your trust in the word of others is admirable, but I'd say a little misplaced in the world of hi-fi. The use of your ears is vital, but you're using your ears for the wrong thing. Don't consider buying anything on someone's recommendation. I know these guys far better than you, but I'd never even think for a millisecond about buying something for this sort of price on the basis of their experience without hearing it for myself.

And in my opinion, you're also placing far too much emphasis on a tool/technique designed to sell you equipment of a certain brand (or two). It's a tried & tested method of making a sale: focus on one thing that can be percieved as a fault. Build it up so it appears to be the only thing that matters then priovide the solution. Please understand, the things you are placing so much emphasis on are but a small part of the equation.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I admire your passion, but there really is more to music that Linn's vision for how it should be heard.

[tunepirate]

Christian,
Can I offer you a little friendly advice?
Your trust in the word of others is admirable, but I'd say a little misplaced in the world of hi-fi. The use of your ears is vital, but you're using your ears for the wrong thing. Don't consider buying anything on someone's recommendation. I know these guys far better than you, but I'd never even think for a millisecond about buying something for this sort of price on the basis of their experience without hearing it for myself.

And in my opinion, you're also placing far too much emphasis on a tool/technique designed to sell you equipment of a certain brand (or two). It's a tried & tested method of making a sale: focus on one thing that can be percieved as a fault. Build it up so it appears to be the only thing that matters then priovide the solution. Please understand, the things you are placing so much emphasis on are but a small part of the equation.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I admire your passion, but there really is more to music that Linn's vision for how it should be heard.

It was merely a price question, and if it wouldn't be too expensive more priced like a Beresford, then maybe it would be worth trying and buying. But i realised from your answer and some searching in this forum that the tag goes a bit beyond that, which is understandable and logical.

I wouldn't think Linn either says tune dem/musical correct flow is the only parameter, I'm quite sure they are thinking of at least getting some tonal neutrality, high resolution, and maybe sound-stage. But i think they're spot on by putting the musical flow in the first room, since it's music it's built for. That's why so many people never gone back once they've gotten used to the presentation offered from Linn.:)

[tunepirate]

Christian,
Can I offer you a little friendly advice?
Your trust in the word of others is admirable, but I'd say a little misplaced in the world of hi-fi. The use of your ears is vital, but you're using your ears for the wrong thing. Don't consider buying anything on someone's recommendation. I know these guys far better than you, but I'd never even think for a millisecond about buying something for this sort of price on the basis of their experience without hearing it for myself.



What you do not realise is that in the world of tune dem, many things are upside down. We often buy products on others recommendations because tune dem is an objective method, better is better. And we're seldom going wrong. We're pretty fine with not the most perfect sound-stage and some tonal colouring doesn't bother us to much compared to musical colouring. And most brands out there has pretty good resolution already so that's seldom a problem, since everyone uses top dac:s now days. But the question many times is does the music come out as it should. And most of the time it doesn't. But when it does other parameters seems to come in place with that, since a non-musical reproductions is many times the biggest distortion. And musical distortion seems to be pretty hard to meassure since it seems to be a combination of many things ..

[chris@panteg]

Hi Christian

Do you believe ' the equipment in a full Linn system ' actually forms part of the performance ' in piece of music ' i say this as it was part of Linn's philosophy back in the early 1990's ' i don't know if it still is though ? .

[tunepirate]

Hi Christian

Do you believe ' the equipment in a full Linn system ' actually forms part of the performance ' in piece of music ' i say this as it was part of Linn's philosophy back in the early 1990's ' i don't know if it still is though ? .

Hi I'm not sure i understand the question?

I do not think the label "musical" that is commonly used to describe linn's equipment is about adding something, I believe it's about taking away something, which is timing distortion, getting closer to the musical flow on the recording. I realise though that the communication from linnist's haven't always been the best on this. I don't think linn ever meant to be describing their equipment to be adding something that wasn't there on the recording. More bringing back to life what was already there.

[chris@panteg]

What i am saying is ' Linn were stating that the equipment actually added something to the music which made it more musical and enjoyable to listen to .

[The Grand Wazoo]

What you do not realise is that in the world of tune dem, many things are upside down. We often buy products on others recommendations because tune dem is an objective method, better is better. And we're seldom going wrong. ..

Ah well, good luck with that then!
But please think a little harder about your audience before you tell people they don't know how to listen.

All the best!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

It sounds like "sound has priority" ... Just for linn not belt

[tunepirate]

What i am saying is ' Linn were stating that the equipment actually added something to the music which made it more musical and enjoyable to listen to .

Oh did they say that, probably a loose way of speaking..or a marketing way of speaking or something.. Because the tune method is about getting the music correct, and that method is quite old i think.80's?

They added transparency:) I think many people have misunderstood them on this point and they think linn's musicality is a type of colouring:) I've heard people saying that before.. maybe linn have been bad at communicating.. That's why I'm using words as low musical colouring etc. Because when I'm going to live concerts especially unplugged it's even more tight than a good linn rigg:) But that's the direction we're heading..and I'm recognising that my upgrades with tune dem is going that way ..true to the original..

[tunepirate]

It sounds like "sound has priority" ... Just for linn not belt


The thing about round-earthers listening to sound and flat earthers to music is just a way of trying to explain the importance of the time perspective in hifi. And how it degrees the music. It's not an attack on any one or trying to say that their love for music is less than our or that they are stupid or something. But I realise in a hard debate it sometimes can come forth as that.

But my apologies if I've spoken harshly and also apologies on behalf of all the linn people who have run over other people trying to convince of their equipments superiority.:(

[Marco]

Hi Cristian,

Don't worry about it.


The thing about round-earthers listening to sound and flat earthers to music is just a way of trying to explain the importance of the time perspective in hifi.


Have you read our ethos thoroughly, particularly the part here written by Steve Toy and me?

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=85690#post85690

I've been following what you've been writing very carefully, and I think you're a nice chap at heart, if somewhat a 'Linn victim' - and I mean that in the nicest possible sense :)

I suggest you take some time out to read and thoroughly digest the views of members here throughout the forum in relation to the flat-earth philosophy, 'tune dems' and such like, by reading the archive, before commenting further on this matter, as at the moment you're showing distinct signs of a lack of understanding and or/empathy with others here in this respect, which doesn't bode well for your fitting in long-term into our community, and above all deriving the requisite enjoyment from the experience....

Just some advice, that's all :cool:

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

not entierly but def a hint of "shippy"

[Marco]

The existence of the merest globule of phlegm rather than a full-blown bogey, as it were?

Marco.

[Marco]

Incidentally, let's see a pic of your (now shiny) copper DAC? ;)

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

that steve definatly spent some time buffing it up! i just want it to play hgh rez music now :(

[Marco]

Lol, ya - go on, gizza look at how shiny it is now :)

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

The existence of the merest globule of phlegm rather than a full-blown bogey, as it were?

Marco.

yes indeed!

[Steve Toy]

I see similar personality traits but I quite like Tunepike. At least he's embraced the flat earth. From that point he can't really go wrong other than spending more money on hi-fi than he needs only ultimately still to be dissatisfied. Linn/Naim is a rite of passage. It's a good place to pass through but isn't necessarily the ideal destination.

I'm concerned that there are a few folks here who don't really conceptualise pace (or pitch), rhythmn and timing and the tune dem method of establishing a system's prowess in this regard without seeing beyond their perceived Naim/Linn bullshit marketing.

The bullshit was the claim of exclusivity. The concept itself is a sound one one of capturing the essence of recorded music. I certainly wouldn't sacrifice one millimetre of musical measure for an extra foot of soundstage. Fortunately, effective power supply upgrades in particular usually give you at least a foot of each.

[Steve Toy]

I agree with this....


Can I offer you a little friendly advice?
Your trust in the word of others is admirable, but I'd say a little misplaced in the world of hi-fi. The use of your ears is vital, but you're using your ears for the wrong thing. Don't consider buying anything on someone's recommendation. I know these guys far better than you, but I'd never even think for a millisecond about buying something for this sort of price on the basis of their experience without hearing it for myself.


But not this....


And in my opinion, you're also placing far too much emphasis on a tool/technique designed to sell you equipment of a certain brand (or two). It's a tried & tested method of making a sale: focus on one thing that can be percieved as a fault. Build it up so it appears to be the only thing that matters then priovide the solution. Please understand, the things you are placing so much emphasis on are but a small part of the equation.



There are a couple of companies who are complacent enough to believe that by setting the criteria, customers will then automatically choose their brands. This is not true.

The tool/techique is correct but the equipment that wins out in a tune dem isn't always Naim or Linn.

Equipment that scores well in a tune dem is more likely to keep you listening to music than that which excels in other areas perhaps at the expense of being able to play in tune and in time.

The beauty of Tube Distinctions valve amplifiers is that they will out-tune and out pace Linn and Naim at the same time as imaging incredibly well and being tonally accurate.

Looking at Cristian's list:


Alpine
AnthonyTD :: Distinctive valve amps
Densen
Duncan, tubehunter :: DACs
Cain :: Cd-players
Croft :: Amps
Grado :: Headphones and pick-ups
Focal
Lavardin
Lejonklou
Linn
Musical fidelity (used to be)
Naim
Rega
Sherwood :: rd-75** series are very good for given price, their more expensive series sound worse
Sugden
System fidelity
Beresford?
Sennheiser?

I'd add Accuphase. Yes they are Japanese but don't let that put you off. Their amplifiers can sound a bit soft in the bass if partnered with speakers that present a stiff load at low frequencies, but their CD players are fantastically musical. The clue is in the name - they are accurate in terms of phase and are therefore excellent in terms of pitch, rhythmn and timing. For example the Accuphase DP500 will beat the similarly priced Linn Akurate CD player in a tune dem. I know, I've heard the direct comparison.

The Cairn Fog will also beat the Linn Majik CD player (I used to own one) at that particular price point in a tune dem.

If I was forced to return to solid state I'd partner either the Cairn Fog or Accuphase DP500 with amps by Densen into a pair of Focals. If funds were available I'd stretch to the Peak Consult Princess speakers fronted by dCS, still going through Densen.

Links:

http://www.accuphase.com/

http://www.densen.dk/?page=products&produkt=b275

http://www.cairn-audio.com/

[Joe]

By a strange twist of irony, the 'if you don't like our stuff you need to educate your ears' line is now being spun by Ashley James of AVI fame/notoriety!

[Steve Toy]

Aye and ADM9s couldn't carry a tune if Ashley's life depended on it. :mental:

[Marco]

I see similar personality traits but I quite like Tunepike.


Erm, that would be tunepirate, daftee! ;)

Where did you get "Tunepike" from? :scratch:

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Turnpike is an American term meaning toll road. I was being mischievous. Daftee.:mental:

[Marco]

Never heard of it!

Between that and "tuber" (see current valve amp thread in Blank Canvas), I'm doing well this morning! :lol:

Oh and what have toll roads got to do with the price of mince (or the discussion topic)? :scratch:

S'ok, I don't wanna know! :lolsign:

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'm baffled too mate...

[technobear]

I'm baffled too mate...

Openly baffled...

...or infinitely baffled ??? :lolsign:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

:doh:

[Barry]

Ok how about a little test for you ' do you have Mozart's Jupiter symphony (no 41) ?

In the last movement ' there are 4 themes which are developed and explored and right at the end Mozart lump's all of these together as one whole ' It's an extraordinary work of unparalleled Genius ' and a real challenge for any hifi system to make sense of it all .

To be honest I am not sure if my current set up can do justice to the Jupiter ' think I am going to play it tomorrow and find out ? Its been a while since I played it.

Now that both you and Steve have explained matters and I now know what to listen for, I did try Mozart's Symphony 41 (K 551). In fact I listened to two recordings:

Academy of St.Martin-In-The-Fields, cond. Neville Marriner. 1970, Philips 426 205-2.

and

The Academy of Ancient Music, leader Japp Schröder, cond. Christopher Hogwood. 1983, L'Oiseau-Lyre 417 557-2. This recording uses authentic or traditional instruments.

Well I now know what you are all talking about, and yes I could hear three tunes being played simultaneously. Four was more difficult, but just about discernable.

It was easier to do on the Hogwood recording than on the Marriner. I think the use of traditional instruments helps as they were not designed to be loud; subtle differences in articulation are thus more distinct.

I now realise that I, and my system, has been able to do this all along - it's that I never really noticed, just accepted it.

So thanks to all involved for demonstrating this aspect of music reproduction to me. I still don't think it's the 'be all and end all' of what a reproduction system has to do. For me tonal fidelity and imaging and focus are just as important.

Regards

[The Grand Wazoo]

So thanks to all involved for demonstrating this aspect of music reproduction to me. I still don't think it's the 'be all and end all' of what a reproduction system has to do. For me tonal fidelity and imaging and focus are just as important.

This is what I was trying to allude to. If your equipment allows you to, once you 'get it', it's obvious, but hardly the definitive tool for assessing sound quality. There are other things to consider but it can become an obsession and an end in itself if you allow it too.
Linn's seemingly dismissive treatment of soundstage in the past 'because it's not important to the tune' was ludicrous and risible in my view & some of this attitude remains.
On the other hand, equally wrong is the US obsession with the soundstage at the expense of everything else to the point where you end up with something that doesn't exist in real life (like 15 foot tall drumkits).

[Marco]

....and the moral of the story, chaps and chapettes, is that it's not just Linn or Naim gear that can do 'PRAT and tune', so armed with that knowledge, we can put this whole thing to bed and go back to listening to music on our non-Linn and non-Naim systems with requisite smug satisfaction ;)

Yee-hah! :rave:

:goodnight:

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Mostly non linn and non naim... :)

[Barry]

This is what I was trying to allude to. If your equipment allows you to, once you 'get it', it's obvious, but hardly the definitive tool for assessing sound quality. There are other things to consider but it can become an obsession and an end in itself if you allow it too.
Linn's seemingly dismissive treatment of soundstage in the past 'because it's not important to the tune' was ludicrous and risible in my view & some of this attitude remains.
On the other hand, equally wrong is the US obsession with the soundstage at the expense of everything else to the point where you end up with something that doesn't exist in real life (like 15 foot tall drumkits).

Yes would agree wholehartedly. I heard plenty of ludicrous soundstaging at the demonstrations at Whittlebury Hall, late last year. Mostly incorrect height but often the depth was too shallow.

I have cited this observation before, though it might not have been true for the later versions of the Isobaraks, but I was shocked to hear what awful sondstaging the Linns had. The image was unstable; with musicians seemingly floating or swimming around. Enough to make you seasick!

Perhaps Linn design their wares for people who do not sit down to listen to their systems. You can hear 'tunes' from a connecting room when soundstaging is irrelevant!

Ironically some of my listening is like that: whilst helping with the cooking or posting on AoS.

Good Grief - I'll be buying a Linn multi-room sound system next!

Regards

[Marco]

Indeed. One could install it in the scullery for the peasants to listen to whilst they prepare the Filet Mignon ;)

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Listening from the next room is a good test. If it sounds shit from the next room it is shit.

[chris@panteg]

I agree with you 100% there Steve ' spot on .

I was at my local Linn dealer way back ' and he had taken delivery of his 1st batch of AE1's and AE2's remember those ? .

He set them up with Linn amps LK1 and 280 i think ' and an Arcam cd player ! so i had a listen ' i was impressed ' yes i know they are a bit analytical and not to everyone's taste ! but and this was startling to me ' the system was playing some ancient music , very delicate stuff and as i left the room and went downstairs this delicate plaintiff music seem to follow me down to the shop floor .

I was quite frankly startled ' it sounded just as clear as in the room , i thought Linn amps never sound this good ? but they seemed to gel with the AE2.

[Steve Toy]

The trouble today is that Linn use switch-mode power supplies in their amps. Whilst they seem to get away with the way they've implemented them in their source components and preampsn they haven't in their power amps which sound mechanical. The bass in particular lacks in elasticity, texture and sheer groove.

They've seriously dropped the ball (imho) not to mention the documented customer service issues and not repairing even very expensive kit over a certain age.

I'll agree that the Linn stuff of the nineties and turn of the millenium when I started out in this hobby was rather good but they seem to have lost sight of their flat earth fundamentals. I bought a Majik CD in 2006. It actually represented good VFM and it could certainly carry a tune but no way was I tempted to go all-Linn. The speakers they had at the time seemed rather tuneless and the Densen amp I was looking at upgrading from to something better trounced their amps and even the dealer agreed.

I've not heard them but on all accounts the preamps aren't bad.

[chris@panteg]

Yes Steve ' i don't understand why they place so much faith in switch mode psu 's its best used in PC's in my view and certainly not hifi .

The DS player's look to be outstanding ' i heard the Majik at Scalford in a very nice Valve based system ' sounded superb .

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Yes Steve ' i don't understand why they place so much faith in switch mode psu 's its best used in PC's in my view and certainly not hifi .

The DS player's look to be outstanding ' i heard the Majik at Scalford in a very nice Valve based system ' sounded superb .

i heard there was an akurate there, was it definately a majik you heard and not an akurate?... im wondering if an upgrade to a akurate would solve my problem with lack of middle... or maybe the system you heard compensated for that lack of middle i hear in my system... any thoughts?

[chris@panteg]

Hi Hamish

Well ' a lack of middle eh ' sorry i think you are right i think it was the Akurate :doh: .

It was my 1st experience of the DS player's and i was impressed ! but it was a lovely system ' LV OBX with i think an Audionote amp ? + Border Patrol psu .

So Hamish what's up with the Majik then ' i thought you loved it :scratch:

[Stratmangler]

The trouble today is that Linn use switch-mode power supplies in their amps. Whilst they seem to get away with the way they've implemented them in their source components and preampsn they haven't in their power amps which sound mechanical. The bass in particular lacks in elasticity, texture and sheer groove.

They've seriously dropped the ball (imho) not to mention the documented customer service issues and not repairing even very expensive kit over a certain age.

I'll agree that the Linn stuff of the nineties and turn of the millenium when I started out in this hobby was rather good but they seem to have lost sight of their flat earth fundamentals. I bought a Majik CD in 2006. It actually represented good VFM and it could certainly carry a tune but no way was I tempted to go all-Linn. The speakers they had at the time seemed rather tuneless and the Densen amp I was looking at upgrading from to something better trounced their amps and even the dealer agreed.

I've not heard them but on all accounts the preamps aren't bad.

This business about SMPS may or may not be the issue here.
However, you have to take a more global view on things, and not be as colloquial as to limit your view to the UK - if you ask anyone at Linn as to what percentage the UK market is to them in terms of turnover the answer will be small.

And I know from talking to someone who makes and markets audio equipment that things get interesting when you start exporting kit, as you'll find that certain territories will not allow you to sell into their market unless you have SMPS PSU's end of the story. Local legislation prohibits the sale of any item fitted with a linear PSU. The fact that a well designed linear PSU can be more economical in terms of power requirements to run than a poorly designed and implemented SMPS is neither here nor there - the legislation is passed by bodies with little or no technical expertese and who are swayed by something as banal as buzz words.

It would not be cost effective for any company of Linn's standing to manufacture stuff purely for the UK market - it just isn't big enough for them - so they have to look globally.
SMPS done properly can be very good - look at Linn or Chord from the UK. There's Halcro in Australia.

Personally I'm not going to advocate one approach over the other, I just wanted to point out that the UK quality audio market is not as big as many of us think.
As a group we (audiophiles - for want of a better description) are very much in the minority.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Hi Hamish

Well ' a lack of middle eh ' sorry i think you are right i think it was the Akurate :doh: .

It was my 1st experience of the DS player's and i was impressed ! but it was a lovely system ' LV OBX with i think an Audionote amp ? + Border Patrol psu .

So Hamish what's up with the Majik then ' i thought you loved it :scratch:

i do... its a brilliant streamer but within my system, compared to within the naim system, it lacks middle and sounds a almost a bit stark...
the copper dac adds richness and middle, so the combination of dac and majik is awesome. the caiman also has a similar effect, just not as rich and fractionally less transparent than the copper
me and steve put it down to the possibility of there being an inherent compatability between linn and naim kit and of course the fact that anthonys kit is so transparent...
i certainly wouldnt warn someone away from the linn kit, i read recently ome reviews of the linn streamers that went into some detail (mostly over my head) of why they are so good at streaming... but the dac in the majik, for me, isnt up to scratch... linn of course have to have differences in their range to justify the differences in cost

[Steve Toy]

Chris, enviro-fascism does seem to be taking over the planet and it's heading our way... :mad:

[markf]

So with hindsight Steve which cd player would you say was better as a stand alone player
the Linn Majik CD you had before or the Bel Canto you have now ,because I think in
some other thread you said the internal DAC in the Bel Canto wasn't great.

[Steve Toy]

I'd say the Majik for musicality overall. The Bel Canto wins on the transport and the fact that in conjunction with a top-notch off-board DAC that can also be used for downloaded music, it steams ahead.

The Majik is also found wanting in transparent systems.

[chris@panteg]

Chris, enviro-fascism does seem to be taking over the planet and it's heading our way... :mad:

:sofa:

[Stratmangler]

:sofa:

I think ill get me coat

I think this one is directed at me;)

[technobear]

Chris, enviro-fascism does seem to be taking over the planet and it's heading our way... :mad:

I thought the global warming scam had been thoroughly exposed now? :scratch:

All legislation passed in the name of global warming should now be repealed with immediate effect. No more carbon trading. No more CO2 taxation.