Bi-Amp ... how about Tri-Amp ?

[pandoraefretum]

Hello,

Years ago, I started my Hifi#1 with Arcam A90 which is a 90 (actually tested at over 100) Watt Integrated Amp, an older CD player, and nondescript Speakers...
I don't remember which order I added to this system, but I soon added a P90 Arcam power amp, and was able to bi-amp the speakers, settling on B&W 704 floorstanders.

Bi-Amping (the integrated amp drives the Treble, and the Power amp drives the Bass) works very well... basically, 200W going into each speaker.
I've been told it's not about the Watts... well no, and maybe yes it is... all things being equal 200W is better, and far more relaxed a sound than 100W, as bi-amping demonstrated very clearly.

Now this might sound dumb, as I've little experience in the matter... but would Tri or quad amping be feasible ? (since a used P90 would not cost much).
I'm thinking A90 to drive treble L and R, and P90 L Bass, and P90 R Bass ? Is this what Monobloc Amps do ?

Or let's just say I wanted a new system with 140W into Bass and 140W into Treble...(let's say more power than my latest Arcam A39 which is an integrated 120W amp) what equipment would currently do that ?

Thanks in Advance, Roland

[pandoraefretum]

Hey thanks for the answer ; in reverse order:

No, I wouldn't dream of 2 power amps into 1 speaker... strange idea
ah now I know what bridging means (perhaps!)
ahh, very good point.. it may not be due to more power... but bi-amping works extremely well in this particular case: I'm pretty sure P90 was designed with this in mind.

Generally, not talking about my setup, I still think 200W is better than 100W... just as 80W is better than 20W.. if not, why doesn't everyone economise and stick with 45W ?
I think high end probably starts with 250W not that you need it most of the time...

[walpurgis]

I think high end probably starts with 250W not that you need it most of the time...

What some regard as true 'high end' may start at less than ten watts.

[pandoraefretum]

I was looking at some PS Audio clips.. they have 3x 1500W amps... and a few more in their music room #1

[Barry]

Hello,

Years ago, I started my Hifi#1 with Arcam A90 which is a 90 (actually tested at over 100) Watt Integrated Amp, an older CD player, and nondescript Speakers...
I don't remember which order I added to this system, but I soon added a P90 Arcam power amp, and was able to bi-amp the speakers, settling on B&W 704 floorstanders.

Bi-Amping (the integrated amp drives the Treble, and the Power amp drives the Bass) works very well... basically, 200W going into each speaker.
I've been told it's not about the Watts... well no, and maybe yes it is... all things being equal 200W is better, and far more relaxed a sound than 100W, as bi-amping demonstrated very clearly.

Now this might sound dumb, as I've little experience in the matter... but would Tri or quad amping be feasible ? (since a used P90 would not cost much).
I'm thinking A90 to drive treble L and R, and P90 L Bass, and P90 R Bass ? Is this what Monobloc Amps do ?

Or let's just say I wanted a new system with 140W into Bass and 140W into Treble...(let's say more power than my latest Arcam A39 which is an integrated 120W amp) what equipment would currently do that ?

Thanks in Advance, Roland

Yes, that is what monoblocks do; they are single-channel amplifiers used to feed a single speaker, or drive unit. And no, it is not 'tri-amping' in the conventional sense: tri-amping uses three (stereo), or six mono amplifiers to feed the three sets of drive units in each speaker.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?5818-Basics-amp-General-Bi-amping-and-Bi-wiring

[pandoraefretum]

My A90 has a Pre Out

Does that mean I could use 2x Quad Elite QMP monoblocs with it ?
Or since my IrDAC II has variable power out, could that be directly connected (without preamp) to 2xQMPs ?

I'm thinking cheap way to get lots of power.

[Last Perfect Day]

Hi
I bought a KEF B139, 110 midrange, and Scanspeak drivers and built them to a tested design (many years). The KEF B139 was placed into its own unit. This settup begged the use of biamping, which I did upon aquiring a pair of Musical Fidelity MA 50`s, then I had my Musical Fidelity 50 watt / channel preamp converted to seperately use the amps from the preamp, and used them for the bass, and the MA50`s for the mid and treble speaker units.
I then hardwired my threeway cross-over to seperate the B139 speaker. You use a lot of speaker cable and need RCA splitters (as in photo) and a second pair of interconnects, but I believe the effort to be worthwhile, although I dont suggest it to be better than upgrading to a much better amplifier.
23095

[walpurgis]

I'm sure there are exceptions, but on the whole, the very powerful amps I've heard have been a bit disappointing.

Some will swear by their 300B (or other) SET amps as being the ultimate in sound quality, but they can rather limit the choice of suitable speakers.

[Barry]

BTW, a bridged amp is not the same thing as a monoblock. In a conventional amp, one of the loudspeaker terminals is connected to 0 volts (the black one) and the other terminal (the red one) swings positive and negative to drive the loudspeaker. A bridged amp (usually) uses two conventional amps connected together so that neither of the loudspeaker terminals is connected to 0V. Instead, one terminal is driven positive and negative by one amp while the other terminal is driven negative and positive by the other amp. That gives you twice the voltage swing you would have if you only used one of the amps.
In practice this is usually done by using a stereo power amp which has a bridging switch to turn it into a bridged-mono amp. However, it would be possible to do it with any stereo power amp if you also had an outboard device to generate an extra, out-of-phase, signal in addition to the original signal.
Hmmm... I wonder if there's a market for such a device :scratch:
I doubt it :lol:

There are two ways in which a 'stereo', or two-channel amplifier can have its outputs connected together so as to increase the output power:

Series connection - whereby the available voltage is doubled,

Parallel connection - whereby the available current is doubled.

The former option requires a transformer on the input of the two amps, whereas the latter option is possible with amplifiers employing an output transformer with a completely independant winding for the speaker output (that is the feedback is provided by a separate winding). And in the latter case a number of series/parallel combinations might be available, depending on the number of output impedance taps there are on the transformer. For most SS amplifiers parallel connection is easily arranged through using a potentiometer to provide an equal input to each channel.

Quad publish details of how to do this with their valve amps, as well as the 303 and 405 designs. The Quad 510 monoblock amplifier allows various series/parallel output connection with other 510 amplifiers, to provide a maximum power of over 1200W.

[hornucopia]

Big thing in 80s was Linn Isobariks, tri-amped! Ain't nothing new in the world?

[pandoraefretum]

Thanks for the discussion,

I find more power useful not for getting the music louder, but for driving it in a more relaxed tone.. let's say more effortless, less strained.
I'm looking to improve my hifi#1 : What would you say the next step up in sound is from Arcam A90 + P90 ?

I also find it's the Amplifier that is the heart of a system...
Once I got my A90 + P90 setup, I found no matter what speakers I attached.. everything sounded good
Surprisingly, even the cheapest £200 Gale floorstanders made a great sound... the speakers seemed to make little difference to the sound.. more like a different finishing touch
Oh I know everyone will say I'm mad, but I tried it, and couldn't find a speaker that made a bad sound, as long as the amps were doing a great job... & I mean great...

I know excellent source equipment is essential... I just don't see speakers making much of a difference, unless they lack bass (like my B&W 704s).. adding a REL 7Ti Sub went a long way towards fixing that

[Macca]

Thanks for the discussion,

I find more power useful not for getting the music louder, but for driving it in a more relaxed tone.. let's say more effortless, less strained.
I'm looking to improve my hifi#1 : What would you say the next step up in sound is from Arcam A90 + P90 ?

I also find it's the Amplifier that is the heart of a system...
Once I got my A90 + P90 setup, I found no matter what speakers I attached.. everything sounded good
Surprisingly, even the cheapest £200 Gale floorstanders made a great sound... the speakers seemed to make little difference to the sound.. more like a different finishing touch
Oh I know everyone will say I'm mad, but I tried it, and couldn't find a speaker that made a bad sound, as long as the amps were doing a great job... & I mean great...



I've also found that with good/well matched amplification that even the cheapest speakers can sound good.

If you want cheap power you could check out something like the Behringer iNuke https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-NU1000-Inuke-1000W-Amplifier/dp/B005EHIN12

1000 watts into 8 ohm, just 139 English pounds.

With the bi and tri amping it isn't the extra power that makes the difference (because there isn't any extra power in reality) but the fact that the individual amplifiers are not having to work so hard. Although any benefit will depend on how tricky a load the speakers are. B&W speakers tend to be quite demanding in that respect (low impedance load) so not surprising you noticed an improvement.

[walpurgis]

I've also found that with good/well matched amplification that even the cheapest speakers can sound good

Yes. That's a strange phenomenon, rubbish speakers allowing changes in upstream equipment quality to be heard. True though.

[pandoraefretum]

Thanks for that Martin,

Finally someone starting to agree with me...
Your reasoning sounds good to me

Well since I recently purchased an Arcam A39 Integrated Amp
I was wondering if I could get another, and use them in classic Bi-Amp configuration (since Arcam doesn't make a matching "P39") ?
(using Pre-Out to hook up the second A39)

Of course I would set them to the same volume

[Eileen Dover]

If you are diy inclined then it is easy to see (hear ) the effects of more power on tap. With the same amplifier circuit, rectifier and smoothing caps just keep swapping the transformer for one with slightly higher secondary voltage. Must keep within the limits of the components on the board, the rectifier, caps and heat sinks

This little experiment is not cheap to do as transformers are expensive but it is the only way to know what is really going on. I think you are right regarding the effortless nature of the same amp with higher voltage rails. Also increasing transformer VA can bring rewards in certain circumstances due to the lower impedance.

I am a big fan of giving each drive unit its own amplifier. Also I like splitting the front end off and giving it its own dedicated psu (transistor amps) usually with a nice EI transformer. In fact I just love an EI transformer on most things except power amp output stages.

[pandoraefretum]

If you are diy inclined then it is easy to see (hear ) the effects of more power on tap. With the same amplifier circuit, rectifier and smoothing caps just keep swapping the transformer for one with slightly higher secondary voltage. Must keep within the limits of the components on the board, the rectifier, caps and heat sinks

This little experiment is not cheap to do as transformers are expensive but it is the only way to know what is really going on. I think you are right regarding the effortless nature of the same amp with higher voltage rails. Also increasing transformer VA can bring rewards in certain circumstances due to the lower impedance.

I am a big fan of giving each drive unit its own amplifier. Also I like splitting the front end off and giving it its own dedicated psu (transistor amps) usually with a nice EI transformer. In fact I just love an EI transformer on most things except power amp output stages.

I'm not anywhere near DIY in nature, unfortunately... But I like what you say; "each drive unit its own amplifier" is my goal too.. "dedicated psu".. couldn't agree more..
If I get rich overnight, first thing I'll do is vamp up my hifi, for the moment it's one item at a time...