New DAC from Allo is coming soon

[Shovel_Knight]

I was going to pull the trigger and buy Allo Boss 1.2, but then one of my friends pointed me to this thread on DIYaudio.com. Apparently, Allo.com are working on a new DAC using the ESS Sabre 9038q2m chip and fully discrete output stage. It is expected to be available in 2 months, and the price will be “under $250” (so probably about 250€ for us Europeans).

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/310338-dac-allo-ess9028q2m-rpi.html (Start reading from the end of the thread)

[eksiil]

grateful for the heads up, I was pondering a similar move


I was going to pull the trigger and buy Allo Boss 1.2, but then one of my friends pointed me to this thread on DIYaudio.com. Apparently, Allo.com are working on a new DAC using the ESS Sabre 9038q2m chip and fully discrete output stage. It is expected to be available in 2 months, and the price will be “under $250” (so probably about 250€ for us Europeans).

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/310338-dac-allo-ess9028q2m-rpi.html (Start reading from the end of the thread)

[Shovel_Knight]

I expect the new DAC to be significantly better than the Boss, by all accounts Allo did a fantastic job with the latter but PCM51xx family was not really designed for audiophile applications. ESS9038 is a much better chip.

[ALLO.com]

you beat me to the punch!
will keep you updated on progress.

[tkr001]

you beat me to the punch!
will keep you updated on progress.

The thread on diyaudio has disappeared. Do you know why?

[jonners]

The thread on diyaudio has disappeared. Do you know why?

It appears to have been merged with another thread: "New FIFO buffer for RPI/SBCs".

[The Black Adder]

I can't wait for this... The Boss DAC is fab so I can't wait to review this one. [emoji108]

Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk

[ALLO.com]

its going to be a hot summer.

[LC1979]

I expect the new DAC to be significantly better than the Boss, by all accounts Allo did a fantastic job with the latter but PCM51xx family was not really designed for audiophile applications. ESS9038 is a much better chip.

I have the original Boss and follow Allo developments quite closely as I believe they are putting out very good products. Am very interested in their Volt+D amp and upcoming 5v smps.

Were cost no option I would be first in line for this new Sabre DAC, but to play devils advocate for a second, I was under the impression that several top DAC designers are of the opinion that the chip has very little bearing on the sound as compared to the implementation.

So, realistically, how much improvement could we expect from this 9038q2m version over PCM51xx ones? Will only true audiophiles notice much difference? :)

[ALLO.com]

hey guys,
well the wait is over!
Mass production of the KATANA has started!

http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23672&d=1528455079

[The Black Adder]

Oooooh... really exciting.

It certainly looks different to the BOSS.

Yum! :) :)

[Sherwood]

hey guys,
well the wait is over!
Mass production of the KATANA has started!

http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23672&d=1528455079

Confused! Is this part of the new DAC? Where are the analogue outputs?

Also, how will the front end of the new DAC compare to the Digione board?

Geoff

[The Black Adder]

Looks like this... Maybe Andre will post some more pics.

it's a triple affair... More here:
http://essabre-90xx-rpi.sfb2.com/2018/04/allo-katana-on-the-way-dts-accepted-for-rpi-mainline-kernel-diyaudio-com-forum/

http://essabre-90xx-rpi.sfb2.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/katana-3.jpg

[Sherwood]

Looks like this... Maybe Andre will post some more pics.

it's a triple affair... More here:
http://essabre-90xx-rpi.sfb2.com/2018/04/allo-katana-on-the-way-dts-accepted-for-rpi-mainline-kernel-diyaudio-com-forum/

http://essabre-90xx-rpi.sfb2.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/katana-3.jpg

Gruesome! Hopefully it will sound better than it looks!

Geoff

[Kit1cat]

You will definitely want to hide that in a case!

[Sherwood]

What will the new DAC be called and will it have its own case?

Geoff

[ALLO.com]

hello,
KATANA is the name of the stack.
its composed of:

KATANA DAC board, housing the ESS 9038
OPAMP board which is the analog output stage with both balanced (XLR) and un-balanced (RCA) outputs
MICROCONTROLLER board feeding the power

initially offered with an acrylic case while the aluminum version is being worked on.

regards,
Andre

[The Black Adder]

Hi Andre.

Sounds crazy!... in a good way. :) lol

Will it be able to be controlled by Moode?

[Sherwood]

Hmmm?

Are the XLR outputs fully balanced, and will it be possible to control the volume through software to the XLR's. I would like to feed the signal direct to my monoblock power amps without the need for a pre-amp.

Alternatively, is there an option for a stepped attenuator with this design?

Geoff

[The Black Adder]

Hi Geoff.

I think they have something on their website with an attenuator control.

[Sherwood]

Hi Geoff.

I think they have something on their website with an attenuator control.

Thanks, I will check it out.

Geoff

[ALLO.com]

Hmmm?

Are the XLR outputs fully balanced, and will it be possible to control the volume through software to the XLR's. I would like to feed the signal direct to my monoblock power amps without the need for a pre-amp.

Alternatively, is there an option for a stepped attenuator with this design?

Geoff


hi Geoff,

i am not sure what "fully balanced" means...
they are balanced as mentioned before.

yes you can control through software...
we also sell a 24 position stepped attenuator.

or even a relay attenuator.

regards
Andre

[ALLO.com]

hi to all,

as many of you heard , we have been working on a new DAC .


We asked ourselves how its possible to bring true HIFI sound to the RPI. We wanted a price point thats accessible to everyone while blowing away any DAC made by anyone under 1000$ .
Lets see if we succeeded

1. DAC IC

First we chose a very capable IC , the ess9038q2m . This IC has excellent specs (theoretical THD+N at -120) and the analog stage (output) is left to the designer (more on analog stage below). One extra advantage of the ess9038q2m is DOP
Of course we used super caps and everything in audio path is film caps and thin film R.

2. Clocks

Any delta sigma IC is very sensitive to the clocks (jitter). We used the "ultra low jitter clocks from NDK NZ2520SDA http://www.ndk.com/en/products/search/clock/1190972_1433.html. We also made sure that power was filtered by 2 LDOs in series along with a HF filter. Noise tested is in uV. Of course we also used buffers (that also has its power filtered 3 times..)
What we achieved is the lowest jitter ever (390fs)

3. Analog stage

There are 2 kinds of analog stages , transfos and opamps. A lot of people swear by trans (with good reason) and others chose specific monolithic opamps. Still the consensus is that transfos are better as far as sound quality (but very expensive and bulky) and that opamps are better as far as THD+N numbers . If Opamps are used the quality of the PSU (opamps need dual rail 15V) is very important .

Still we felt that opamps CAN be better than transfos..

We concentrated a lot of efforts in this analog stage . You see , monolithic (integrated circuits) opamps suffer from the fact that not enough real estate is available on the silicon die .( excellent article https://sparkoslabs.com/audio-op-amps-gain-seek-bandwidth/ )

So our choice was ultimately to build a discreet opamp (with IV stage we got 6 of them) while feeding it from a DC/DC convertor that has filters on input (+ LDO) and filters on output (+ LDOs) and of a course a common mode choke (each rail has independent filtering) for a total noise thats lower than 1mV

However building an opamp is not a trivial task . What we did is partner with Sparkoslabs.com and used his excellent design (thx you Andrew the wizard) . One review of those opamps https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/08/sparkos-labs-discrete-op-amps-review.htmll .

Each board is then hand trimmed (individually ) for DC offset (when board is warm to simulate conditions of a board that been running for at least 45 min)) and then programmed for THD+N compensation .



So in essence Katana dac is an excellent implementation of the Ess9038q2m in Master Mode (we are the first to do so) , with a discreet stage made by 6 opamps running in class A amplification . THD+N numbers (1Khz , 0 dbfs , a weighted ) at -112.75 !!!
Pricing at 249$ (US) and 259Eur (tax included) Release date 17 of July23798

[The Black Adder]

Hi Andre...

Can't wait... sounds really very interesting :)

[Sherwood]

hi to all,

as many of you heard , we have been working on a new DAC .


We asked ourselves how its possible to bring true HIFI sound to the RPI. We wanted a price point thats accessible to everyone while blowing away any DAC made by anyone under 1000$ .
Lets see if we succeeded

1. DAC IC

First we chose a very capable IC , the ess9038q2m . This IC has excellent specs (theoretical THD+N at -120) and the analog stage (output) is left to the designer (more on analog stage below). One extra advantage of the ess9038q2m is DOP
Of course we used super caps and everything in audio path is film caps and thin film R.

2. Clocks

Any delta sigma IC is very sensitive to the clocks (jitter). We used the "ultra low jitter clocks from NDK NZ2520SDA http://www.ndk.com/en/products/search/clock/1190972_1433.html. We also made sure that power was filtered by 2 LDOs in series along with a HF filter. Noise tested is in uV. Of course we also used buffers (that also has its power filtered 3 times..)
What we achieved is the lowest jitter ever (390fs)

3. Analog stage

There are 2 kinds of analog stages , transfos and opamps. A lot of people swear by trans (with good reason) and others chose specific monolithic opamps. Still the consensus is that transfos are better as far as sound quality (but very expensive and bulky) and that opamps are better as far as THD+N numbers . If Opamps are used the quality of the PSU (opamps need dual rail 15V) is very important .

Still we felt that opamps CAN be better than transfos..

We concentrated a lot of efforts in this analog stage . You see , monolithic (integrated circuits) opamps suffer from the fact that not enough real estate is available on the silicon die .( excellent article https://sparkoslabs.com/audio-op-amps-gain-seek-bandwidth/ )

So our choice was ultimately to build a discreet opamp (with IV stage we got 6 of them) while feeding it from a DC/DC convertor that has filters on input (+ LDO) and filters on output (+ LDOs) and of a course a common mode choke (each rail has independent filtering) for a total noise thats lower than 1mV

However building an opamp is not a trivial task . What we did is partner with Sparkoslabs.com and used his excellent design (thx you Andrew the wizard) . One review of those opamps https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/08/sparkos-labs-discrete-op-amps-review.htmll .

Each board is then hand trimmed (individually ) for DC offset (when board is warm to simulate conditions of a board that been running for at least 45 min)) and then programmed for THD+N compensation .



So in essence Katana dac is an excellent implementation of the Ess9038q2m in Master Mode (we are the first to do so) , with a discreet stage made by 6 opamps running in class A amplification . THD+N numbers (1Khz , 0 dbfs , a weighted ) at -112.75 !!!
Pricing at 249$ (US) and 259Eur (tax included) Release date 17 of July23798

Looks very interesting and probably exactly what I am looking for when I move overseas later this year. Two questions:

a) Is it possible to fit a volume control, and which is the best in terms of sound quality?
b) I understand this has XLR outputs. Is this an option or are they standard? Do xlrs replace the rca outputs?


Geoff

[ALLO.com]

Geoff,

the RCA connectors are mounted/soldered on the board, they are standard; but there are provisions (holes) where you can solder wires for XLR connectors.
Its a small DIY project that allows you to have both outputs with little effort.

for volume control, you can use our relay attenuator that can be used as stand alone.
https://www.allo.com/sparky/relay-attenuator.html

regards and let me know if you have any other questions.

Andre

[Sherwood]

Geoff,

the RCA connectors are mounted/soldered on the board, they are standard; but there are provisions (holes) where you can solder wires for XLR connectors.
Its a small DIY project that allows you to have both outputs with little effort.

for volume control, you can use our relay attenuator that can be used as stand alone.
https://www.allo.com/sparky/relay-attenuator.html

regards and let me know if you have any other questions.

Andre

Andre,

thanks for your prompt reply. Just a few follow on points.

Will any case for the new DAC have cut outs for the XLRs, or will it be necessary to adapt the case?

You say that the relay attenuator can be used stand alone. Not sure I understand this? Would that be in a separate box and if so how would it connect to the new DAC?

Thanks

Geoff

[ALLO.com]

hi agian,


yes, the acrylic case will have openings for the XLR connecting wires.

for the relay attenuator, let me get back to you on this by tomorrow after i confer with the team.
regards,
Andre

[ALLO.com]

hi again Geoff,

for volume control here is what we can offer:
1> stepped attenuator sitting between Katana and AMP. wil require RCA cables.
we dont have a case for it, but its something we can do.

2> relay attenuator . will require soldering for the I2S signaling.
making a case for that will be harder.

regards,
Andre

[Sherwood]

hi again Geoff,

for volume control here is what we can offer:
1> stepped attenuator sitting between Katana and AMP. wil require RCA cables.
we dont have a case for it, but its something we can do.

2> relay attenuator . will require soldering for the I2S signaling.
making a case for that will be harder.

regards,
Andre

Andre,

thanks for the clarification.

If I understand it, the relay attenuator operates in the digital domain and the stepped attenuator in the analogue domain.

When do you expect to ship the first Katanas?

Geoff

[ALLO.com]

Hi again,
further clarification...the ESS SABRE 9038 does oversampling therefore the software volume control is comparable to a hardware one.
so ask yourself if you really need a hardware volume controller...

some interesting reading:
http://www.esstech.com/files/3014/4095/4308/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf
https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/the-sabre-dac-digital-volume-control-better-than-analog/

The digital volume control in the ESS Sabre DAC owes its performance to the availability of a wide internal data path. Using a 32-bit data path, the truncation error (or lack of truncation error) that results from digital attenuation does not reduces the SNR of the DAC.
The message here is that 32-bit digital volume control can beat or match most analog volume controls unless they can beat the -135dB number. (or -132dB in stereo configuration). Note also that DNR is the same weather in voltage or current mode; only THD is enhanced in current mode.

[ALLO.com]

hey guys...
it's official!
https://allo.com/sparky/katana.html

[Sherwood]

hey guys...
it's official!
https://allo.com/sparky/katana.html

This looks very interesting. I am very tempted but would like to read some independent review before buying. I am also a little concerned about running it without a case.

Will there be any discount for AoS members?

Geoff

[eksiil]

still "coming soon"?

[Sherwood]

still "coming soon"?

No. Read Post no 32.

[ALLO.com]

Hey guys,

some last minute calibration changes , we will release for sale very soon.

acrylic case is available for the KATANA

Alu case in the works.

https://allo.com/sparky/katana-player.html

regards
Andre

[The Black Adder]

Oooh... very cool indeed :)


Can't wait! :)
https://www.allo.com/shop/2080-thickbox/katana-player.jpg

[guyhayton]

oooooo that does look good <lol>

[Sherwood]

Still awaiting reply as to whether there will be an AoS discount

:bag:

[ALLO.com]

hello,
at this moment we are not planning of offering a discount anywhere.
regards

[Sherwood]

Review of Katana.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=fR91YY5GNv8

Not one of his best reviews IMHO.

Would like to know more about sound quality.

Geoff

[Sherwood]

Watching this review again, I have no sense of how it might compare with my RPi/Digione/Caiman SEG setup, which is in the same price band once a case for the Katana is factored in, though not with 3 power supplies. At this price level I am a bit wary of taking a punt as I did with the Digione.

I am also a bit put off by the cabling mess that running the Katana with 3 power supplies would entail. I am thinking that if this device is as good as I hope it will be, that it needs to be part of a system in which the boards are mounted in a more conventional case with most ports and sockets on the back panel.

Geoff

[Cycleallday]

If you look at many of the Allo items it seems to me they are not good at product ergonomics and often have multiple power supplies, odd input plug sizes and poor attention to cabling inputs and outputs.

Now they have tried to move up the HiFi ladder (from a simple pi add on company) they need to address this , including build quality ( eg RCA output socket quality) in order to compete in the true HiFi market.

They also need to sort out their support site and processes instead of relying only on their French representative ( who obviously does work hard) .

Mel

[The Black Adder]

Hiya.

Just letting you know that I've now got the Katana Dac.

I've had it running for a couple of days now and I have to say it's pretty special. It's very, very good indeed.

I'll be doing a full review soon so watch out for that.

[Sherwood]

If you look at many of the Allo items it seems to me they are not good at product ergonomics and often have multiple power supplies, odd input plug sizes and poor attention to cabling inputs and outputs.

Now they have tried to move up the HiFi ladder (from a simple pi add on company) they need to address this , including build quality ( eg RCA output socket quality) in order to compete in the true HiFi market.

They also need to sort out their support site and processes instead of relying only on their French representative ( who obviously does work hard) .

Mel

Exactly my view. It's fine having some rough and ready edges at a low price point, but Allo have been moving steadily up the price banding with its products. I am really pleased with my Digione despite it being two or three times the price of other Rpi sound cards. Its performance more than justifies its price. However, the Katana is moving yet further up the price band so that ergonomics becomes more of an issue. I am sure it is good but it looks a bloody mess with ports and sockets on almost every side!

Geoff

[LC1979]

I'll be doing a full review soon so watch out for that.

:thumbsup:

[ALLO.com]

Exactly my view. It's fine having some rough and ready edges at a low price point, but Allo have been moving steadily up the price banding with its products. I am really pleased with my Digione despite it being two or three times the price of other Rpi sound cards. Its performance more than justifies its price. However, the Katana is moving yet further up the price band so that ergonomics becomes more of an issue. I am sure it is good but it looks a bloody mess with ports and sockets on almost every side!

Geoff


hi guys,

i just want to say a few things about this.

multiple PSUs is to give the best sound quality.
You can feed BOSS player (BOSS + RPI) with 1 PSU... but 2 will improve the SQ
same for KATANA... you can feed the whole stack (total 4 boards including RPI) with 1 PSU... but better to use 4
we just give the choice to the customer and there is nothing that can be done design wise... you just cant get the best SQ with 1 PSU.

RCA connectors on the lower end DACs are what everyone uses , industry standard , with gold plated outer ring and inner pin.
For the KATANA we went for much higher quality , full brass body and inner pin with full gold plating. It actually also helps with heat dissipation.

We are still keeping the RPI HAT format since our products are streamers based on RPI.
This form factor limits us on the connectors placements.

thanks for your feedback and I hope to have shed some light on our design decisions.
regards
Andre

[Sherwood]

hi guys,

i just want to say a few things about this.

multiple PSUs is to give the best sound quality.
You can feed BOSS player (BOSS + RPI) with 1 PSU... but 2 will improve the SQ
same for KATANA... you can feed the whole stack (total 4 boards including RPI) with 1 PSU... but better to use 4
we just give the choice to the customer and there is nothing that can be done design wise... you just cant get the best SQ with 1 PSU.

RCA connectors on the lower end DACs are what everyone uses , industry standard , with gold plated outer ring and inner pin.
For the KATANA we went for much higher quality , full brass body and inner pin with full gold plating. It actually also helps with heat dissipation.

We are still keeping the RPI HAT format since our products are streamers based on RPI.
This form factor limits us on the connectors placements.

thanks for your feedback and I hope to have shed some light on our design decisions.
regards
Andre

Andre,

thanks for taking the time to respond and explain your strategy. I understand your intent and decision to concentrate on Rpi "stacks". I also appreciate the option you offer to enhance the Katana SQ through multiple power supplies. However, let me suggest the following.

Although your products offer very good vfm, Allo is now moving into a market where aesthetics and ergonomics become increasingly important. Although I think that the RPi is relatively simple to adapt for hifi purposes, many people on this "specialist" forum have expressed a reluctance to dabble or have been put off by the poor aesthetics.

I am suggesting that Allo might begin to consider a way of offering enhanced configurations of its audiophile products. For example, with the Katana, this might include a more traditional case with a linear power supply to provide for tailored feeds to each board. Rather than stacking the 3 boards on top of a Raspberry Pi, I would have thought it would be possible to mount each board separately in the case so that the main connectors (ethernet, usb, rca and power) were all on the rear (including a pair of socketed XLR connectors). Personally, I would be willing to pay up to £200 for such a case with an integrated power supply.

I don't have the electronic skills to design and market such a case, but it seems to be a simple challenge. In describing this, I am reminded of how the market for enhanced keybaords and cases for the Sinclair spectrum took off in the early 80s. Maybe, if Allo don't go down this path then someone on this forum might!

Geoff

[Sherwood]

Further to my earlier post, I have just realised that what I am proposing can be achieved by simply splitting the Katana stack in two. The Rpi and first board could then be oriented towards the rear of a case so that the ethernet and usb ports faced rearward. The top two boards would then be repositioned through 90 degrees so that the RCA sockets and (added XLR sockets) would be alongside the ethernet and usb ports. All power connections would be made inside the case through a single linear power supply providing the requisite voltages for each board. The two sections would then be connected using a short ribbon connector.

Is it this simple or have I got something wrong?


Geoff

[ALLO.com]

hi again,

thanks for all your valid points.
you may want to know that...
we are already designing the aluminum case which will be high end like the digione/boss one.
we will probably make an XLR version as well.

thanks and please stay tuned for progress.

[ALLO.com]

hi to all,
just wanted to update with what we released on our site:

The Katana is a complex DAC that offers multiple filtering and powering options.The pursuit of the best sound quality is what drives our design team and the reason behind our recent decision to halt manufacturing of the late KATANA.
A new version, the 1.2, is in the works and will only have a few components changed resulting in a subtle, yet necessary SQ improvement.
Please note the following:
No orders will be accepted for the next 14 days.
Already received your KATANA? A new one will be sent to you once the K1.2 is released.
Already placed an order ? You will be soon contacted by our customer support team.
Thank you for your understanding.


technically we have ...
We improved the LPF on summing opamp. Small improvement in SQ
We improved filtering before analog stage . Medium improvement in SQ
We improved noise escaping DC/DC convertor. Not quantified yet
We connected earthing to board (with Nirvana PSU it will be automatic). Removal of some HF and better trebles . I would say small improvement but clearly audible
Adding some 220uF caps to analog stage. No improvement


KATANA 1.2 is being finalized and ready to ship by the end of the month.

Thanks
Andre

[LC1979]

Hiya.

Just letting you know that I've now got the Katana Dac.

I've had it running for a couple of days now and I have to say it's pretty special. It's very, very good indeed.

I'll be doing a full review soon so watch out for that.

:please:

[ALLO.com]

Hi guys,
the KATANA 1.2 will start shipping soon.
the changes are worth the wait.
SQ improved
we will send the new unit for review soon!
promise!

[LC1979]

Hi guys,
the KATANA 1.2 will start shipping soon.
the changes are worth the wait.
SQ improved
we will send the new unit for review soon!
promise!

Any update on the 5v PSU, ETA?

[eksiil]

keen to buy a Katana I've followed this thread with bated breath. I'd be very grateful for any indication as to when "soon" might be.

[LC1979]

NVM :)