Ortofon OM20 lousy tracking

[magiccarpetride]

My dealer installed Ortofon OM20 on my Rega RB300 tonearm and according to my electronic scale, the VTF is set at 1.92 grams. The cartridge plays very nicely on the first track of any LP, but as soon as it reaches the second track, often halfway through, it starts mis-tracking, the sound becomes distorted, and it gets stuck in the loop.

Is that caused by the excessive VTF? Ortofon recommends 1.25 grams for this cartridge. Should I lower the VTF? What else could be causing this defect?

[struth]

tracking is recommended at 1.5g. i would check the set up of tonearm too.

[Shovel_Knight]

If it gets stuck, I would check if tonearm movement is free. Sometimes the cueing platform can interfere with the movement of the tonearm. Or the tonearm itself may have defective bearings...

[Mike Reed]

As above advice. A heavier than recommended VTF would be more likely to stay in the groove, but sound dull and unbalanced. As aforesaid, check the arm for free movement and no snagging on anything (like bias?). Also check the stylus for crud/fluff/whatever (using a loupe or similar if poss.).

If newish, a cart. should be played at v. near the max. recommended VTF; you can reduce a wee bit thereafter, but there's little if any advantage in so doing. Of course it's assumed the dealer set up the geometry correctly, but I doubt it's this cause.

[Stryder5]

I would check tonearm settings, take record off, put stylus guard on, turn bias to zero. Assuming you have a turntable mat, lower the stylus guard onto the mat and gently using the headshell arm nudge the tonearm towards the centre of the turntable. It should glide easily towards the centre, note where you feel resistance, this should be, at minimum, where the record label should be.

If the tonearm tries to return outward turn the bias a little. Whatever your tracking weight is, the bias as a rough guide should be the same.

Check the vertical tracking angle if you have a small vial spirit level try setting the arm horizontal. If you don't have a tiny spirit level, do this by eye.

If all the above are ok you need a set up alignment protractor, this sets the cartridge and stylus overhang and cartridge angle relative to the record grooves.

The dealer should have done all this if he had the turntable!

[Barry]

Good advice Gary.

I've never been happy with the bias mechanism on the Rega arms (for example, the bias is never truly zero when the dial is set to zero), and suspect that might be the problem.

Also, I assume the deck itself is level; easy enough to check with a spirit level.

[hifi_dave]

Never had any problems using thousands and thousands of Rega arms over the years with any cartridge. The magnetic bias is never a problem, the magnetic bias can never be dialled out completely but it shows how low friction the arm bearings are.

There might be a problem with the arm bearings mullered by the dealer, arm cue catching, cartridge wires hanging too low or a duff cartridge.

[magiccarpetride]

Good advice Gary.

I've never been happy with the bias mechanism on the Rega arms (for example, the bias is never truly zero when the dial is set to zero), and suspect that might be the problem.

Also, I assume the deck itself is level; easy enough to check with a spirit level.

Thanks to everyone for great answers. I've lowered the VTF to recommended 1.5 grams by dialling the spring to 3 (to disengage it), and then sliding the counterweight until the scales showed 1.5. The deck is level, and there are no other obvious blockages.

Now the problem arises only toward the end of the record. May be the time to change the tonearm. Any recommendations for what is a true step up from Rega RB300?

[Stryder5]

If it's now happening at the end I would hazard a guess that the cartridge has not been aligned correctly, do you have access to an alignment protractor?

What you have now is IGD (inner groove distortion). Can be caused by above.

I believe your tonearm is not the issue, i.e. The RB 300 is good enough.

Only my opinions though :)




Thanks to everyone for great answers. I've lowered the VTF to recommended 1.5 grams by dialling the spring to 3 (to disengage it, and then sliding the counterweight until the scales showed 1.5. The deck is level, and there are no other obvious blockages.

Now the problem arises only toward the end of the record. My be the time to change the tonearm. Any recommendations for what is a true step up from Rega RB300?

[struth]

Yup it needs setting up right. Can be a very small thing that gives u a lot of grief alas

[Svend N]

If it's now happening at the end I would hazard a guess that the cartridge has not been aligned correctly, do you have access to an alignment protractor?

What you have now is IGD (inner groove distortion). Can be caused by above.

I believe your tonearm is not the issue, i.e. The RB 300 is good enough.

Only my opinions though :)

Alex, you can download and print your own alignment protractor here: https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml
Scroll down to find the ones for Rega arms. I have used the Rega Baerwald for the RB300 with good success. You will need to register an account with Vinyl Engine in order to download. If you don't want to bother with that then send me a PM with your email address and I will forward the file to you.

And I would agree with the above, that the arm is not the issue - this is the same arm that worked well with the DL-103, no? No reason why it shouldn't be fine with this cartridge.

Cheers,
Svend

PS -- I just checked the compliance spec for the OM20, and it's rather high at 30...you're not using any sort of headshell weight any more, are you? Also, have you done a visual check of anti-skate on an LP with a wide runout groove. How does it behave?

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, you can download and print your own alignment protractor here: https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml
Scroll down to find the ones for Rega arms. I have used the Rega Baerwald for the RB300 with good success. You will need to register an account with Vinyl Engine in order to download. If you don't want to bother with that then send me a PM with your email address and I will forward the file to you.

And I would agree with the above, that the arm is not the issue - this is the same arm that worked well with the DL-103, no? No reason why it shouldn't be fine with this cartridge.

Cheers,
Svend

PS -- I just checked the compliance spec for the OM20, and it's rather high at 30...you're not using any sort of headshell weight any more, are you? Also, have you done a visual check of anti-skate on an LP with a wide runout groove. How does it behave?

Thanks Svend. I followed your previous advice and downloaded protractor from the vinylengine site, but when I printed it, the scale was incorrect. Which renders it useless, I'd venture to guess.

How does one print that file to scale?

And yes, I'm not using any headshell weight with OM20.

[Haselsh1]

For what it is worth, I use an Ortofon OM40 in an Origin Live Onyx and it tracks superbly. Other than alignment I cannot imagine what your problem could be. My OM40 is tracking at 1.65 grams.

[magiccarpetride]

For what it is worth, I use an Ortofon OM40 in an Origin Live Onyx and it tracks superbly. Other than alignment I cannot imagine what your problem could be. My OM40 is tracking at 1.65 grams.

Have you compared OM40 to OM20? Is it a worthwhile upgrade?

[Stryder5]

Another note:)

When aligning the cartridge, you may find that the cartridge is not square in the headshell, the front of the cartridge should be central in the headshell but then you are governed by the alignment protractor.

[walpurgis]

How does one print that file to scale?

For such things, I use an image processing utility. My choice is FastStone Image Viewer, which is a free download and works well. It allows enlargement or reduction of images by small increments (along with a host of other useful facilites).

Available here if interested: http://www.faststone.org/FSViewerDetail.htm

[Haselsh1]

Have you compared OM40 to OM20? Is it a worthwhile upgrade?

Alex, prior to the OM40 I had an OM30 and it was a very worth while upgrade to my ears and my system. Much more refined with bags more midband detail.

[karma67]

Thanks Svend. I followed your previous advice and downloaded protractor from the vinylengine site, but when I printed it, the scale was incorrect. Which renders it useless, I'd venture to guess.

How does one print that file to scale?

And yes, I'm not using any headshell weight with OM20.
You go into your printer settings and change it by small amounts until it’s right

[Mike Reed]

Just something which occurred to me whilst reading the o.p.'s mention of the snag now happening on the inner grooves since lowering the VTF. Why? I suggest because the cart. body is now clearing the record, but not enough for the inner grooves.

A throwaway thought, but visually check the clearance of the body at different points on the record. Bit bloody obvious, so apologies for grandma sucking eggs, as they say.:)

[Stryder5]

Obvious is always good, we've all probably missed the obvious, but wouldn't lowering the VTF make the cartridge run higher?





Just something which occurred to me whilst reading the o.p.'s mention of the snag now happening on the inner grooves since lowering the VTF. Why? I suggest because the cart. body is now clearing the record, but not enough for the inner grooves.

A throwaway thought, but visually check the clearance of the body at different points on the record. Bit bloody obvious, so apologies for grandma sucking eggs, as they say.:)

[Svend N]

You go into your printer settings and change it by small amounts until it’s right

^^^What he said... In the print dialogue in Acrobat Reader, find the section called Print Scaling and Handling > Custom Scale, and adjust from there until it's right.

[Mike Reed]

Obvious is always good, we've all probably missed the obvious, but wouldn't lowering the VTF make the cartridge run higher?

Indeed. At the lower VTF the cart. body will be higher, hence allowing more clearance, if the body is hitting the record anywhere. Of course, raising the VTA should have a similar or even greater effect, as it's often the back of the cart. which will snag the record. Upping the VTA should also change the presentation toward more upper frequencies, but correspondingly can appear more dynamic as a result. The reverse is true that with the arm down at the pivot, the sound becomes more bassy but also more diffuse.

[Stryder5]

I get where you're coming from now, I had misinterpreted your post, sorry.



Indeed. At the lower VTF the cart. body will be higher, hence allowing more clearance, if the body is hitting the record anywhere. Of course, raising the VTA should have a similar or even greater effect, as it's often the back of the cart. which will snag the record. Upping the VTA should also change the presentation toward more upper frequencies, but correspondingly can appear more dynamic as a result. The reverse is true that with the arm down at the pivot, the sound becomes more bassy but also more diffuse.

[guy]

"My dealer installed Ortofon OM20 on my Rega RB300 tonearm"

When you say "dealer", what is his trade ? :peace:

[magiccarpetride]

"My dealer installed Ortofon OM20 on my Rega RB300 tonearm"

When you say "dealer", what is his trade ? :peace:

He's a purveyor of all things analog. Great, fantastic guy, I have really great experiences with him, but he is super busy so in the meantime (while I'm waiting for his availability) I'm trying to troubleshoot this problem with your guys's help.

[Barry]

Just something which occurred to me whilst reading the o.p.'s mention of the snag now happening on the inner grooves since lowering the VTF. Why? I suggest because the cart. body is now clearing the record, but not enough for the inner grooves.

A throwaway thought, but visually check the clearance of the body at different points on the record. Bit bloody obvious, so apologies for grandma sucking eggs, as they say.:)

If the clearence between the cartridge body and the record is not constant across the record surface, then the arm pillar cannot be truly vertical with respect to the turmtable arm mounting.

The OP complains of mistracking due to the cartridge jumping or groove skipping. This suggests to me a problem with excessive bais, and not of any deviation from 'correct' arm/cartridge geometry.

[Mike Reed]

If the clearence between the cartridge body and the record is not constant across the record surface, then the arm pillar cannot be truly vertical with respect to the turmtable arm mounting.

The OP complains of mistracking due to the cartridge jumping or groove skipping. This suggests to me a problem with excessive bais, and not of any deviation from 'correct' arm/cartridge geometry.

I agree, Barry, and it may well be wrong biasing due to the shift in snagging position, but as you say, it may be the alignment. Insufficient clearance is likely to affect the outer grooves more, come to think about it, as few records are totally flat. Mind you, I've had dished records which rise in the centre. Still worth checking that there's adequate clearance, though.

[Barry]

Ah - I hadn't considered 'dished' LPs. I assumed the OP was having problems with all of the records he played.

[magiccarpetride]

Ah - I hadn't considered 'dished' LPs. I assumed the OP was having problems all of the records he played.

Yes, all records I played so far have the same problem.

[Barry]

Alex,

Can we run through all the checks you have made:

[1] Is the turntable level, especially the platter?

[2] Is the arm mounting collar and horizontal bearing housing vertical with respect to the platter?

[3] Is the VTF as recommended by Ortofon, or at least not less than the minimum of the recommended range? (I always start with a setting 0.25g below the maximum recommended figure and work from there.)

[4] Do you still have problems if the bias dial is turned to zero?

[5] Is the azimuth correct? (you can use a mirror to check this.)

I still think the problem is with the arm applying too much bias. In my experience the bias calibration on most arms, marked as being appropriate for a given tracking force, are only correct for spherical stylii, for others: elliptical; fine line etc., the bias setting need only be half that of the corresponding playing weight (VTF).

[magiccarpetride]

Alex,

Can we run through all the checks you have made:

[1] Is the turntable level, especially the platter?

[2] Is the arm mounting collar and horizontal bearing housing vertical with respect to the platter?

[3] Is the VTF as recommended by Ortofon, or at least not less than the minimum of the recommended range? (I always start with a setting 0.25g below the maximum recommended figure and work from there.)

[4] Do you still have problems if the bias dial is turned to zero?

[5] Is the azimuth correct? (you can use a mirror to check this.)

I still think the problem is with the arm applying too much bias. In my experience the bias calibration on most arms, marked as being appropriate for a given tracking force, are only correct for spherical stylii, for others: elliptical; fine line etc., the bias setting need only be half that of the corresponding playing weight (VTF).

Thanks Barry, here are the vital stats:

[1] Is the turntable level, especially the platter? -- Yes, as level as I could get it to be.

[2] Is the arm mounting collar and horizontal bearing housing vertical with respect to the platter? -- Yes.

[3] Is the VTF as recommended by Ortofon, or at least not less than the minimum of the recommended range? (I always start with a setting 0.25g below the maximum recommended figure and work from there.) -- I now have VTF at 1,67 grams.

[4] Do you still have problems if the bias dial is turned to zero? -- the problems are intermittent (which is what makes this so maddening). Last night started acting up again around 4 - 5 minutes into the playback. Then it suddenly decided to play fine and only start acting up toward the end of LP. Then later on, decided to play fine, beginning to end. So I never know what's going to happen next.

[5] Is the azimuth correct? (you can use a mirror to check this.) -- haven't checked azimuth -- Rega RB300 doesn't have removable headshell, so not sure how to adjust that?

Not sure what exactly is meant by 'bias'? Anti-skate?

[Barry]

Thanks Barry, here are the vital stats:

[1] Is the turntable level, especially the platter? -- Yes, as level as I could get it to be.

[2] Is the arm mounting collar and horizontal bearing housing vertical with respect to the platter? -- Yes.

[3] Is the VTF as recommended by Ortofon, or at least not less than the minimum of the recommended range? (I always start with a setting 0.25g below the maximum recommended figure and work from there.) -- I now have VTF at 1,67 grams.

[4] Do you still have problems if the bias dial is turned to zero? -- the problems are intermittent (which is what makes this so maddening). Last night started acting up again around 4 - 5 minutes into the playback. Then it suddenly decided to play fine and only start acting up toward the end of LP. Then later on, decided to play fine, beginning to end. So I never know what's going to happen next.

[5] Is the azimuth correct? (you can use a mirror to check this.) -- haven't checked azimuth -- Rega RB300 doesn't have removable headshell, so not sure how to adjust that?

Not sure what exactly is meant by 'bias'? Anti-skate?


Yes, by 'bias' I meant 'anti-skate'.

When it's "acting up", does the arm skip towards the certre of the record, or does it skip towards the rim?

[magiccarpetride]

Yes, by 'bias' I meant 'anti-skate'.

When it's "acting up", does the arm skip towards the certre of the record, or does it skip towards the rim?

It first starts distorting (crackly/wooly sound, like radio static). After a second or two it gets stuck in the groove, keep repeating the same second over and over. Like a stuck, broken record.

Then, if I discontinue the playback, and return to it a few hours later, it may or may not behave the same on the same side of the same LP. I cannot detect any pattern, only that it keeps changing over time. Everything else staying the same, only the arm/cartridge sometimes start distorting at the approximately same place on the record and then get stuck, or at another time keep playing without a hitch.

[magiccarpetride]

Yes, by 'bias' I meant 'anti-skate'.

When it's "acting up", does the arm skip towards the certre of the record, or does it skip towards the rim?

Anyway, I'm done with Rega, ordered 10" Jelco tonearm.

Rega is a fantastic tonearm for the price, but it is super hard to work with. I've tried to replace the cartridge on it, and it is super tight and the connection wires kept falling off while I was trying to adjust the cartridge with the protractor. Too much hassle, I think I'm ready for a more civilized tonearm. Jelco has been receiving warm reviews, I'm hoping it will be a step up from RB300.

[hifi_dave]

You don't get easier to set up and use arms than the Regas. All very straightforward, positive and easy.

If your arm was working previously, your first step should be to replace the OM20 and try again.

[walpurgis]

Have you examined the diamond stylus tip under magnification? It occurs to me that the problem described could be due to dirt contamination or even a damaged stylus.

[hifi_dave]

Exactly. If the arm was working with the previous cartridge, it is the OM20 or the set up.

[Svend N]

Alex, the max VTF for the OM20 should only be 1.5g (this is from Vinyl Engine database). If you're at 1.7 that's a bit high. Remember, this cart is high compliance at 30, so needs a lighter touch. Have you tried it at 1.25g?

Also, you mention bias (anti-skate) dial....the RB300 does not have a bias dial, but rather it is set on the slider on the bracket below the arm, upon which the arm lift also sits. The numbers are hard to read (black on black) -- are you SURE you have it set correctly? What happens when it's at zero?

Finally, I think I asked this before, but how does the arm behave when you drop the needle into the lead-out area of a record? Have you tried this on an LP with a wide lead-out section? This can be very telling about AS behaviour, and is a quick easy test. Does is pull out or in? It should, if set more or less correctly, slowly move to centre before slipping into the groove. You will have maybe 1 second to observe this, so you may have to repeat a few times 'til you twig it.

Check these out and let us know what you find...

Hang in there man!

[Svend N]

Anyway, I'm done with Rega, ordered 10" Jelco tonearm.

Rega is a fantastic tonearm for the price, but it is super hard to work with. I've tried to replace the cartridge on it, and it is super tight and the connection wires kept falling off while I was trying to adjust the cartridge with the protractor. Too much hassle, I think I'm ready for a more civilized tonearm. Jelco has been receiving warm reviews, I'm hoping it will be a step up from RB300.

What the heck? Wires falling off? It sounds like you may have a couple of problems here. In addition to your tracking issue, it sounds like you need to give the cartridge lead tips a gentle little squeeze with a pair of fine needlenose pliers to snug them up a titch. That's where the crackle is coming from, is the loose leads.

Back to tracking,- you mention that you tried to align this cartridge....was this before or after your tech did it? If the former, have you checked the tech's work? Is it aligned correctly now?

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, the max VTF for the OM20 should only be 1.5g (this is from Vinyl Engine database). If you're at 1.7 that's a bit high. Remember, this cart is high compliance at 30, so needs a lighter touch. Have you tried it at 1.25g?

Also, you mention bias (anti-skate) dial....the RB300 does not have a bias dial, but rather it is set on the slider on the bracket below the arm, upon which the arm lift also sits. The numbers are hard to read (black on black) -- are you SURE you have it set correctly? What happens when it's at zero?

Finally, I think I asked this before, but how does the arm behave when you drop the needle into the lead-out area of a record? Have you tried this on an LP with a wide lead-out section? This can be very telling about AS behaviour, and is a quick easy test. Does is pull out or in? It should, if set more or less correctly, slowly move to centre before slipping into the groove. You will have maybe 1 second to observe this, so you may have to repeat a few times 'til you twig it.

Check these out and let us know what you find...

Hang in there man!

Thanks Svend, will try this experiment later today.

What's really confusing to me is the sporadic occurrence of the mis-tracking. If the setup was incorrect in any way, then the symptoms would be consistent, no? But the symptoms emerge at random intervals, making me think that something else must be the matter here. Otherwise, why would the arm/cartridge work smoothly on some occasions, and then stop working on some other occasions, etc.?

[Barry]

Which way does the arm 'skip' - or is it random?

[Svend N]

Thanks Svend, will try this experiment later today.

What's really confusing to me is the sporadic occurrence of the mis-tracking. If the setup was incorrect in any way, then the symptoms would be consistent, no? But the symptoms emerge at random intervals, making me think that something else must be the matter here. Otherwise, why would the arm/cartridge work smoothly on some occasions, and then stop working on some other occasions, etc.?

I'm beginning to suspect that you have two problems, as mentioned above...

a) You have mistracking due to either having your alignment poorly set, and/or AS bias poorly adjusted, as well as a too-high tracking force for the high compliance cantilever on that cartridge; i.e. the very flexible cantilever cannot overcome the excess downforce and when it hits that inner section of a record it sometimes skips. Any alignment and AS misadjustments will exacerbate this, or vice-versa. The inner sections are well known for causing such difficulties, which are heard as inner groove distortion, as everyone often refers to it as. Try setting your VTF at 1.25g using a digital gauge and see what happens. And do try the AS test on a record with a wide lead-out area. And you didn't answer my question re. alignment? What's the scoop there?

....and...

b) Your cartridge lead connectors are too loose, and need tightening. This is what's causing your crackling sounds. Pull them off one at a time, snug them up as suggested....but gently and easy does it, you don't want to collapse them.

[Stryder5]

After all this, the cartridge must be screwed?

[magiccarpetride]

Which way does the arm 'skip' - or is it random?

The arm does not 'skip', it's more that it gets stuck in the groove. You know, like the proverbial 'broken record' that keeps repeating the same thing over and over.

[magiccarpetride]

Have you examined the diamond stylus tip under magnification? It occurs to me that the problem described could be due to dirt contamination or even a damaged stylus.

Yes, the cartridge is brand new and I only play thoroughly cleaned records. After each side I play I use Magic Eraser to remove any debris from the stylus. I'm very anal that way.

[magiccarpetride]

You don't get easier to set up and use arms than the Regas. All very straightforward, positive and easy.

If your arm was working previously, your first step should be to replace the OM20 and try again.

Ha, that's the ironic thing. I dread replacing the cartridge, because Rega RB300 is the absolutely least friendly tonearm for replacing cartridges. There is very little maneuvering space for me to get my fat butterfingers in and connect the wires.

Plus, Rega has this Mickey Mouse anti-skate which many people are not even sure how it works (or whether it actually works). Plus the Mickey Mouse spring for VTF, which rings and interferes with the signal. I'd much rather get a tonearm that allows me to quickly and easily swap various cartridges for auditioning.

[Mike Reed]

I dread replacing the cartridge, because Rega RB300 is the absolutely least friendly tonearm for replacing cartridges. There is very little maneuvering space for me to get my fat butterfingers in and connect the wires.

Plus, Rega has this Mickey Mouse anti-skate which many people are not even sure how it works (or whether it actually works). Plus the Mickey Mouse spring for VTF, which rings and interferes with the signal. I'd much rather get a tonearm that allows me to quickly and easily swap various cartridges for auditioning.

I connect signal wires to the cart. pins before I bolt the cart on. I've only had fixed h/shell arms and I find this much easier/safer. It really sounds like you've developed a loathing for the RB300. Your last post indicates a problem which seems to obviate bias or alignment being the culprit. Back to possible sticky bearings, maybe, assuming the VTA is more or less straight and the cart. rides sufficiently above the record. Also that the arm's traverse is not impeded by cables or anything. This is indeed a poser, but if the manufacturer's rec. max. VTF is 1.5 g, then stick it on 1.5g. A new cart should be very near max. rec. VTF as I've mentioned before.

[Svend N]

Alex, I hate to be a spoiler here, but if you want to keep using the OM20 with a new Jelco arm, then it might well be a mismatch as I believe that arm has a higher effective mass than the Rega. I couldn't find a spec for any Jelcos, but my guess is that it may not be suited to such a high compliance cartridge (in fact even the Rega is possibly borderline too heavy for that cart). OTOH, if you want to use the Jelco with your Denon, then it's a move in the right direction (as several of the guys have noted before), and should work much better with that cart than the RB300.

[Svend N]

Back to your sticky problem with the RB300/OM20 -- did you happen to check whether the arm lift might be out of adjustment? If it's set too high, or the curved arm is bent slightly upwards, then it could well be causing the sticking you describe if the arm is making contact with it while playing. The arm lift height is adjustable with a little grub screw, BTW. Worth checking...

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, I hate to be a spoiler here, but if you want to keep using the OM20 with a new Jelco arm, then it might well be a mismatch as I believe that arm has a higher effective mass than the Rega. I couldn't find a spec for any Jelcos, but my guess is that it may not be suited to such a high compliance cartridge (in fact even the Rega is possibly borderline too heavy for that cart). OTOH, if you want to use the Jelco with your Denon, then it's a move in the right direction (as several of the guys have noted before), and should work much better with that cart than the RB300.

Yes Svend, I am aware that Jelco may be a better fit for Denon. Wasn't aware of the OM20 limitations when used on the higher mass tonearm, that's something to keep in mind.

I like OM20 because it seems to retain some of that mid-bass bloom that DL-103 excels at while providing better detail retrieval. Thinking of maybe upgrading to OM30 or OM40, if those retain the heft and the slam of OM20.

[magiccarpetride]

Back to your sticky problem with the RB300/OM20 -- did you happen to check whether the arm lift might be out of adjustment? If it's set too high, or the curved arm is bent slightly upwards, then it could well be causing the sticking you describe if the arm is making contact with it while playing. The arm lift height is adjustable with a little grub screw, BTW. Worth checking...

Did check very carefully to make sure tonearm is not rubbing agains the arm lift, and no, that's not the case, not even close. At the point when the 'stuck in the groove' defect occurs, the tonearm is nowhere near touching anything or rubbing against anything. It really feels as if there is some friction inside the pivot, because I can feel a bit of resistance when I hold the tonearm in my hand and push it toward the centre of the platter.

[Svend N]

Yes Svend, I am aware that Jelco may be a better fit for Denon. Wasn't aware of the OM20 limitations when used on the higher mass tonearm, that's something to keep in mind.

I like OM20 because it seems to retain some of that mid-bass bloom that DL-103 excels at while providing better detail retrieval. Thinking of maybe upgrading to OM30 or OM40, if those retain the heft and the slam of OM20.

I also have a high compliance cartridge on my Heybrook (an ADC ZLM) and it's mounted on a low mass carbon fibre ADC tonearm. Works outstandingly well, and sounds terrific. I would think that if you like the OM20/30/40 sound then going to a low mass arm might be a good thing. I'm no expert on these, but lots of guys here like the Mission arms, and I think Grace made a low mass arm as well.

Anyway, I don't want to make you even more confuzzled and have you start second-guessing your choice of arm here. Jelcos are great arms, very well respected, and versatile with a wide range of cartridges. Whether they mate well with an OM20 I can't say -- maybe someone here has tried that and can advise.... In short, just because compliance and arm mass don't seem to match up, doesn't automatically mean that it will sound bad -- I have a high(ish) compliance Ortofon 2M Bronze that sounds far better on a higher mass R200 arm than on a lower mass RB300, so go figure....:scratch: Numbers don't always tell the tale.

Good luck, and hope you find the magic combo here.

Svend

[magiccarpetride]

I'm beginning to suspect that you have two problems, as mentioned above...

a) You have mistracking due to either having your alignment poorly set, and/or AS bias poorly adjusted, as well as a too-high tracking force for the high compliance cantilever on that cartridge; i.e. the very flexible cantilever cannot overcome the excess downforce and when it hits that inner section of a record it sometimes skips. Any alignment and AS misadjustments will exacerbate this, or vice-versa. The inner sections are well known for causing such difficulties, which are heard as inner groove distortion, as everyone often refers to it as. Try setting your VTF at 1.25g using a digital gauge and see what happens. And do try the AS test on a record with a wide lead-out area. And you didn't answer my question re. alignment? What's the scoop there?

....and...

b) Your cartridge lead connectors are too loose, and need tightening. This is what's causing your crackling sounds. Pull them off one at a time, snug them up as suggested....but gently and easy does it, you don't want to collapse them.

The alignment looks okay. My dealer is very good at that, he did originally set my DL-103 and it tracked perfectly.

Did try the experiment with wide flat space toward the end of the record, and did not notice the arm moving in any direction (until it caught the groove ans started riding it toward the end of record).

Originally, the dealer set anti-skate to very low -- something like 0.20. I tried playing with anti-skate, but it didn't fix the stuck-in-the-groove issue. I lowered VTF to 1.44 grams, no change. Next I'll try 1.25 grams, see what happens.

Thanks Svend!

[Barry]

The arm does not 'skip', it's more that it gets stuck in the groove. You know, like the proverbial 'broken record' that keeps repeating the same thing over and over.

Well it is skipping - it's jumping to the previous revolution. So either the anti-skate setting is too high, or the motion of the arm in the horizontal plane has become impeded, either because the bearings have become 'sticky' or the signal wires have become twisted.

You say the cartridge is new, the stylus and records are clean, so it must the arm that is at fault. Is there someone who could examine it for you and check it out?



One other thought - have you checked that the wires to the cartridge pins are neatly 'dressed' and none are touching the record surface?

[Svend N]

The alignment looks okay. My dealer is very good at that, he did originally set my DL-103 and it tracked perfectly.

Did try the experiment with wide flat space toward the end of the record, and did not notice the arm moving in any direction (until it caught the groove ans started riding it toward the end of record).

Originally, the dealer set anti-skate to very low -- something like 0.20. I tried playing with anti-skate, but it didn't fix the stuck-in-the-groove issue. I lowered VTF to 1.44 grams, no change. Next I'll try 1.25 grams, see what happens.

Thanks Svend!

I agree with Barry -- it sounds like your AS is too high. When you do this test the arm should slowly move toward the center before it snaps into the groove. For these light VTF carts you have to be very fussy about AS it seems. Try setting it to zero and see what happens, and adjust in small increments from there. I have read that even at Zero, Rega arms still have a bit of AS pull to them.

Not sure if anyone asked this already (it's late and I can't be bothered to read the whole thread again), but how does your VTA look? Is the arm tail down, flat/parallel, or tail up?

Are you using a digital scale to check your tracking force?

[magiccarpetride]

I agree with Barry -- it sounds like your AS is too high. When you do this test the arm should slowly move toward the center before it snaps into the groove. For these light VTF carts you have to be very fussy about AS it seems. Try setting it to zero and see what happens, and adjust in small increments from there. I have read that even at Zero, Rega arms still have a bit of AS pull to them.

Not sure if anyone asked this already (it's late and I can't be bothered to read the whole thread again), but how does your VTA look? Is the arm tail down, flat/parallel, or tail up?

Are you using a digital scale to check your tracking force?

Yes, using digital scale. The dealer told me that he put just a smidgen of anti-skate because OM20 apparently don't even need it on RB300. The arm looks a bit tail down.

The main quandary here is why is the arm/cartridge combo doing this intermittently, on the same LP? If there is an explanation, then it must produce consistent symptoms, right? If it's fairly random, then it's hard to do reliable detective work. Like for example earlier today it was again skipping at the 4 - 5 minutes point in the playback. Then, for whatever reason, decided a couple of hours ago to play just fine. So I've spent a few hours listening to LPs and enjoying myself. But I know that come tomorrow, it will again stat acting up at the 3 - 5 minutes mark. Wtf?

[Mike Reed]

The arm looks a bit tail down.

The main quandary here is why is the arm/cartridge combo doing this intermittently, on the same LP?

Measure the VTA with a ruler or marked card; the arm-tube should be the same height at the back as at the front, or even marginally up at the back. Best done with the cart. placed on the record at the inner grooves. If the VTA IS tail down (unless specified for that cart.), raise it, because this alters the S.R.A. (stylus rake angle). I've never had a cart. that sounds better with the tail down.

The same record? Must be getting a bit knackered by now. Random is really frustrating, and, from what you say, does point to bearings, assuming no other impediment. There's no point in setting a lower VTF; it's likely to bugger up your records more quickly as it mistracks.

[hifi_dave]

Ha, that's the ironic thing. I dread replacing the cartridge, because Rega RB300 is the absolutely least friendly tonearm for replacing cartridges. There is very little maneuvering space for me to get my fat butterfingers in and connect the wires.

Plus, Rega has this Mickey Mouse anti-skate which many people are not even sure how it works (or whether it actually works). Plus the Mickey Mouse spring for VTF, which rings and interferes with the signal. I'd much rather get a tonearm that allows me to quickly and easily swap various cartridges for auditioning.

I couldn't agree less. The Rega RB arms are the easiest to install a cartridge in and set up, they even have slots on top to hold the fixing nuts in place. Some arms have far less space for the cartridge and have very flimsy wiring, which can easily break. The best way to fit a cartridge is to install it loosely into the headshell and then attach the wires.

The anti-skate or bias is far from "Mickey Mouse" being a rather sophisticated arrangement of two opposing magnets which apply bias without friction and is very easily set. Some of the weight and thread arrangements are extremely crude, fiddly and imprecise.

As to the "Mickey Mouse" spring for VTF, did you get the "ring" and "interferes with the signal" from a forum ? Because, once again it is a much more sophisticated method of applying tracking weight than by moving a counterweight. As to the "ring", that really is a forum myth.

[rockhopper]

Say what you mean Dave. Don’t hold back.

[hifi_dave]

I didn't mean it to sound aggressive in any way. I have been setting up and using Rega tonearms since 1973 and have done it thousands and thousands of times, so I know their arms inside out, fitted with all manner of cartridges on numerous turntables and never had any troubles at all.

The OP's Rega arm was working perfectly before being fitted with the OM20 and now there are problems. First step should be to return it to the dealer who set it up - it's his problem.

[Stryder5]

I did suggest some ideas quite early on in this post, including the orientation of the tonearm relative to the record surface. Didn't get a response though.

Default
I would check tonearm settings, take record off, put stylus guard on, turn bias to zero. Assuming you have a turntable mat, lower the stylus guard onto the mat and gently using the headshell arm nudge the tonearm towards the centre of the turntable. It should glide easily towards the centre, note where you feel resistance, this should be, at minimum, where the record label should be.

If the tonearm tries to return outward turn the bias a little. Whatever your tracking weight is, the bias as a rough guide should be the same.

Check the vertical tracking angle if you have a small vial spirit level try setting the arm horizontal. If you don't have a tiny spirit level, do this by eye.

If all the above are ok you need a set up alignment protractor, this sets the cartridge and stylus overhang and cartridge angle relative to the record grooves.

The dealer should have done all this if he had the turntable!




Measure the VTA with a ruler or marked card; the arm-tube should be the same height at the back as at the front, or even marginally up at the back. Best done with the cart. placed on the record at the inner grooves. If the VTA IS tail down (unless specified for that cart.), raise it, because this alters the S.R.A. (stylus rake angle). I've never had a cart. that sounds better with the tail down.

The same record? Must be getting a bit knackered by now. Random is really frustrating, and, from what you say, does point to bearings, assuming no other impediment. There's no point in setting a lower VTF; it's likely to bugger up your records more quickly as it mistracks.

[Scooby]

Any chance you would consider another cartridge? The OM series aren't hard to better and it might well solve the issue.

[magiccarpetride]

Any chance you would consider another cartridge? The OM series aren't hard to better and it might well solve the issue.

Always open to improving my system. What cartridge do you recommend to upgrade from OM20? Keeping in mind that I prefer hefty, weighty, greasy sound with a lot of body, slam, and bloom. I'm not a big fan of ultra polite airy-fairy oh-so-delicate sound.

[walpurgis]

Vintage Shure M55E with Jico stylus?

[Scooby]

Good call, Geoff.

I guess this is where it gets subjective but I would never have picked an OM20 for weight and bloom. In fact I'd pick just about any other cartridge ahead of the OM series, including an AT95e. They have come on a few decks I have owned over the years and I've always found them lightweight, confused and poor trackers.

[hifi_dave]

Why did Alex swap his Denon DL103 for the Ortofon, as that would give him a lot more of what he is seeking than the OM20.

[magiccarpetride]

Good call, Geoff.

I guess this is where it gets subjective but I would never have picked an OM20 for weight and bloom. In fact I'd pick just about any other cartridge ahead of the OM series, including an AT95e. They have come on a few decks I have owned over the years and I've always found them lightweight, confused and poor trackers.

Interesting. OM20 was recommended to me as a good step up from Denon DL-103. I must say it does retain quite a lot of DL-103's mid bass slam (the low piano notes on Santana's "Incident at Neshabur" are always a good test for that mid bass slam; when listening to it with OM20, it really rocks the house!)

And possibly because I was using DL-103 on RB300, OM20 is now giving me stunningly better tracking and tiny detail resolution. The decay is now noticeably better.

[magiccarpetride]

Why did Alex swap his Denon DL103 for the Ortofon, as that would give him a lot more of what he is seeking than the OM20.

I wasn't happy with the DL-103/RB300 combo. While the mid bass bloom is awesome with DL-103, the tracking was poor and it wasn't resolving enough. As soon as I put OM20 in, the tracking improved tremendously, and gone was that unpleasant hardening in the high register that DL-103 was giving me each time there is any sort of a crescendo passage. Overall, the sound is now much more pleasant with OM20. I'm not saying it cannot get way more pleasant than that, but hey, for $250.00 I cannot complain ;)

I will, of course, put DL-103 back in when my 10" Jelco arrives and gets installed. Curious to hear if Jelco will fix DL-103 problems on my turntable.

[struth]

103 set up right will blow an om20 away imo. but it needs a lot of care and right arm/headshell

[Stryder5]

I wasn't happy with the DL-103/RB300 combo. While the mid bass bloom is awesome with DL-103, the tracking was poor and it wasn't resolving enough. As soon as I put OM20 in, the tracking improved tremendously, and gone was that unpleasant hardening in the high register that DL-103 was giving me each time there is any sort of a crescendo passage. Overall, the sound is now much more pleasant with OM20. I'm not saying it cannot get way more pleasant than that, but hey, for $250.00 I cannot complain ;)

I will, of course, put DL-103 back in when my 10" Jelco arrives and gets installed. Curious to hear if Jelco will fix DL-103 problems on my turntable.

I seem to be lost here the OP was complaining originally as tracking issues with the OM20, unless I'm missing something it appears it tracks better than DL-103?

[magiccarpetride]

I seem to be lost here the OP was complaining originally as tracking issues with the OM20, unless I'm missing something it appears it tracks better than DL-103?

Yes, when it's working (meaning not skipping) it tracks way better than DL-103 was tracking on my turntable. But the problem is that every now and then, for no apparent rhyme or reason, it decides to start skipping, always at approximately same spot (4 - 5 minutes into the record). If it wasn't for that hiccup, I'd be quite pleased with OM20's performance (and it hasn't even broken in!)

[magiccarpetride]

103 set up right will blow an om20 away imo. but it needs a lot of care and right arm/headshell

Seems like in my system, DL-103 didn't like RB300. It just sounded too strident and hard in the upper register. Especially during dynamic passages. Like, loud violins would suddenly start sounding shrill, and choirs, when raising their voices, would sound like indistinguishable mess. I tried remedying that by playing with VTF, to no avail.

I don't doubt that on a better system DL-103 can sail with flying colours through such difficult passages. Sadly, not on my RB300.

[Stryder5]

Yes, when it's working (meaning not skipping) it tracks way better than DL-103 was tracking on my turntable. But the problem is that every now and then, for no apparent rhyme or reason, it decides to start skipping, always at approximately same spot (4 - 5 minutes into the record). If it wasn't for that hiccup, I'd be quite pleased with OM20's performance (and it hasn't even broken in!)

Thanks, it appears you have identified the problem as the arm, hope you're right and have success with you're new arm:)

[magiccarpetride]

Measure the VTA with a ruler or marked card; the arm-tube should be the same height at the back as at the front, or even marginally up at the back. Best done with the cart. placed on the record at the inner grooves. If the VTA IS tail down (unless specified for that cart.), raise it, because this alters the S.R.A. (stylus rake angle). I've never had a cart. that sounds better with the tail down.

The same record? Must be getting a bit knackered by now. Random is really frustrating, and, from what you say, does point to bearings, assuming no other impediment. There's no point in setting a lower VTF; it's likely to bugger up your records more quickly as it mistracks.

Thanks for the suggestions. I don't have a handy way to adjust VTA on Rega RB300.

I thought records are here to be played, no? Why do you think it's a problem if I keep playing the same record over and over? I haven't been noticing any deterioration from doing that. In my mind, if I like the record, it should be perfectly fine to play it over and over and over.

[magiccarpetride]

Thanks, it appears you have identified the problem as the arm, hope you're right and have success with you're new arm:)

Well, by all accounts (written and verbal) 10" Jelco tonearm should be a noticeable improvement over Rega RB300. Fingers crossed, will find out next week when the arm arrives!

[magiccarpetride]

Thanks, it appears you have identified the problem as the arm, hope you're right and have success with you're new arm:)

I'm now facing a conundrum -- when I replace my RB300 with Jelco, what to do with Rega tonearm? By all appearances it looks in good shape, but as I've reported, it has a tendency to introduce intermittent skipping. Would it be fair to offer it for sale? Of course, full disclosure of my travails will be included in the sales offer, but my dilemma is what would be a reasonable price to ask for this semi-defective tonearm?

[Mike Reed]

I thought records are here to be played, no? Why do you think it's a problem if I keep playing the same record over and over? I haven't been noticing any deterioration from doing that. In my mind, if I like the record, it should be perfectly fine to play it over and over and over.

So you're not suffering any deterioration from frequent skips and jumps on the same record? I've not come across indestructible vinyl before; oh, the wonders of modern materials !:)

[Stryder5]

I'm now facing a conundrum -- when I replace my RB300 with Jelco, what to do with Rega tonearm? By all appearances it looks in good shape, but as I've reported, it has a tendency to introduce intermittent skipping. Would it be fair to offer it for sale? Of course, full disclosure of my travails will be included in the sales offer, but my dilemma is what would be a reasonable price to ask for this semi-defective tonearm?

Get your guru you mentioned to check it out at his leisure then you know where you stand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[magiccarpetride]

Get your guru you mentioned to check it out at his leisure then you know where you stand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good suggestion, thank you, but I don't want to spend any more money on it.

[Svend N]

I'm now facing a conundrum -- when I replace my RB300 with Jelco, what to do with Rega tonearm? By all appearances it looks in good shape, but as I've reported, it has a tendency to introduce intermittent skipping. Would it be fair to offer it for sale? Of course, full disclosure of my travails will be included in the sales offer, but my dilemma is what would be a reasonable price to ask for this semi-defective tonearm?

Alex, correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that in another thread one of the guys pointed out that the RB300 was not the correct length for your deck to begin with? I.e. too short or long? Is this true? Could this be where the root of your problems lie with this cartridge? If I'm imagining this, then apologies...

Edit: found it... http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?57001-Denon-DL-103-Pro&p=956319#post956319 See Post #54 by Steve (Arrow)
Did this ever get figured out...?

[hifi_dave]

I'm confused and £250 for an OM20 ??? I have a couple of 520 here that Alex could have had for £25.

The RB300 is more than capable of handling the DL103 but some extra mass is necessary at the headshell to improve tracking and bass.

The OM20 and the turntable should be returned to the dealer who set it up for checking and rectifying.

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that in another thread one of the guys pointed out that the RB300 was not the correct length for your deck to begin with? I.e. too short or long? Is this true? Could this be where the root of your problems lie with this cartridge? If I'm imagining this, then apologies...

Edit: found it... http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?57001-Denon-DL-103-Pro&p=956319#post956319 See Post #54 by Steve (Arrow)
Did this ever get figured out...?

You're right Svend, but the issue is not regarding the tonearm length, but its weight. DL-103 requires heavier tonearm, which is why Marco (and others) recommended abandoning RB300 and upgrading to Jelco. I'm now following their advice :)

[Svend N]

You're right Svend, but the issue is not regarding the tonearm length, but its weight. DL-103 requires heavier tonearm, which is why Marco (and others) recommended abandoning RB300 and upgrading to Jelco. I'm now following their advice :)

Fair enough, but do you know if the Systemdek was modified to take the longer RB300 when it was installed? If not, then all these troubles are probably related to that. Further to that thought, if you're installing a Jelco, you'll have to make sure that it's mount point is correct for it's geometry.

[Stryder5]

Good suggestion, thank you, but I don't want to spend any more money on it.

Send it to me, I'll pay postage:)

[hifi_dave]

It's a pity that Alex isn't closer, because I could sort it out in ten minutes and it wouldn't cost..:)

[karma67]

I'm confused and £250 for an OM20 ??? I have a couple of 520 here that Alex could have had for £25.

The RB300 is more than capable of handling the DL103 but some extra mass is necessary at the headshell to improve tracking and bass.

The OM20 and the turntable should be returned to the dealer who set it up for checking and rectifying.

no its canadian dollars dave

[magiccarpetride]

It's a pity that Alex isn't closer, because I could sort it out in ten minutes and it wouldn't cost..:)

Dang Dave, I wish we were neighbours :) You can certainly imagine how exasperated I am having to deal with this unpredictable intermittent glitching...

[magiccarpetride]

I'm confused and £250 for an OM20 ??? I have a couple of 520 here that Alex could have had for £25.

The RB300 is more than capable of handling the DL103 but some extra mass is necessary at the headshell to improve tracking and bass.

The OM20 and the turntable should be returned to the dealer who set it up for checking and rectifying.

I've tried adding extra mass, per Svend's recommendation, and it did improve the sound, but the issues with the sound hardening in the upper register during crescendos still remained. Now that issue is completely gone with OM20.

[montesquieu]

I'm confused and £250 for an OM20 ??? I have a couple of 520 here that Alex could have had for £25.

The RB300 is more than capable of handling the DL103 but some extra mass is necessary at the headshell to improve tracking and bass.

The OM20 and the turntable should be returned to the dealer who set it up for checking and rectifying.

+1. The elephant in the room. Before anything else is done and before a penny is spent.

[Svend N]

+1. The elephant in the room. Before anything else is done and before a penny is spent.

Agreed, Tom...there are a few things here that aren't adding up...questions going unanswered. Tonearm length being just one of them.

[Scooby]

Id worry about any dealer that recommended an OM20 as an "upgrade" from a DL103.

[montesquieu]

Agreed, Tom...there are a few things here that aren't adding up...questions going unanswered. Tonearm length being just one of them.

Yes that could certainly cause the issues raised. Incorrect spindle to pivot is a recipe for all sorts of woes.

[magiccarpetride]

Yes that could certainly cause the issues raised. Incorrect spindle to pivot is a recipe for all sorts of woes.

In that case, how come I didn't experience any problems with the exact same configuration running DL-103?

[magiccarpetride]

+1. The elephant in the room. Before anything else is done and before a penny is spent.

One thing I'd like to add is that I live in Vancouver, Canada. End of the world, as it's known to human beings. Meaning, beggars can't be choosers and I have access to only a select few dealers here. And they're overbooked as it is, due to the sudden phenomenal surge in vinyl popularity.

So it's not like I can just walk across the street and get another dealer to look into my issues on the spot. I have very little, or no choice. I literally live at the edge of the world.

[montesquieu]

In that case, how come I didn't experience any problems with the exact same configuration running DL-103?

It could have been set up in the headshell to compensate, or largely compensate, for any error in location of the arm pivot. Can you recall (or by looking at pics) confirm whether the stylus tip (which is the crucial marker) falls in the same place relative to the headshell of the arm?

[Svend N]

It could have been set up in the headshell to compensate, or largely compensate, for any error in location of the arm pivot. Can you recall (or by looking at pics) confirm whether the stylus tip (which is the crucial marker) falls in the same place relative to the headshell of the arm?

That, and it would have had a heavier tracking weight, stiffer cantilever, etc., >50% more cart. mass (+3.5g, to be exact)...all of which would help it stay in the groove better than the OM20.

[magiccarpetride]

That, and it would have had a heavier tracking weight, stiffer cantilever, etc., >50% more cart. mass (+3.5g, to be exact)...all of which would help it stay in the groove better than the OM20.

Makes sense. What DOES NOT make sense (at least to me) is why is this new setting not acting consistently? Why is it causing hiccups at some time, and then later on stops causing those hiccups, only for the hiccups to emerge again at a later time. That defies my Sherlock Holmes capabilities :(

[magiccarpetride]

Id worry about any dealer that recommended an OM20 as an "upgrade" from a DL103.

Why? The dealer was catering to my needs. I came to him complaining how I'm not satisfied with the current configuration. I told him that I am looking to upgrade to Dynavector or Rega Ania or even Koetsu Black. I told him that I'd be willing to stretch my budget up to $1,800.00, if push comes to shove.

He advised me to take a deep breath and to first explain to him what is it that I currently dislike in the sound I'm getting. After explaining my issues, he asked me if there is anything I still like in the sound I'm getting. After me explaining my wishes to him, he recommended OM20 for $250.00.

I took his advice, got OM20, let him set it up for me, went home and immediately noticed things being improved in exactly those areas I was complaining about. And that's before OM20 got a chance to warm up, let alone break in.

So my question to you is: what's wrong with that? What's wrong with taking the advice from a person more knowledgeable than me and then being in the position to verify that indeed it all works as advertised?

[Scooby]

My answer is that I cannot see any circumstances in which a DL103 could sound worse than an OM20 unless there is a major setup issue. Yes a DL103 wouldn't give its best in an RB300 but it should still annihilate an OM20.

Edit: or a deficient MC stage. Something definitely not right if a DL-103 falls below OM20.

[Scooby]

Ive tried reading the whole thread to see if there's anything that's been missed. I have a couple of thoughts. Apologies in advance if this has been already discounted.

1. Hard to describe, but the curved lift/lower device can be knocked so it pivots towards the arm at the rear. In this position, it can be sitting too high, yet will only impede the arm when it reaches the latter part of the album. Have you checked the tonearm isn't scraping against the lift lower device at any point?
2. You say the dealer fitted the cart in the arm. Did he have the deck too, or did you just take the arm?
3. Just wondering about the Systemdek. Which model is it? Does it have a Rega cutout or official Rega armboard? Just wondering if there is anything that could mean it's seriously misaligned. I've ran a DL-103 in an RB300 and I had no tracking issues whatsoever and it never sounded hard or harsh. It didn't give of its best, but it did work. The 103R was better suited to a Rega but it too gave better performance in other arms IMO.

I realise you're getting so many opinions and so many different angles to consider. It can be really frustrating when you get such issues. At least the Jelco will give you a fresh start, but you will need to make sure you have a Linn armboard to hand, for your systemdek.

[magiccarpetride]

Ive tried reading the whole thread to see if there's anything that's been missed. I have a couple of thoughts. Apologies in advance if this has been already discounted.

1. Hard to describe, but the curved lift/lower device can be knocked so it pivots towards the arm at the rear. In this position, it can be sitting too high, yet will only impede the arm when it reaches the latter part of the album. Have you checked the tonearm isn't scraping against the lift lower device at any point?
2. You say the dealer fitted the cart in the arm. Did he have the deck too, or did you just take the arm?
3. Just wondering about the Systemdek. Which model is it? Does it have a Rega cutout or official Rega armboard? Just wondering if there is anything that could mean it's seriously misaligned. I've ran a DL-103 in an RB300 and I had no tracking issues whatsoever and it never sounded hard or harsh. It didn't give of its best, but it did work. The 103R was better suited to a Rega but it too gave better performance in other arms IMO.

I realise you're getting so many opinions and so many different angles to consider. It can be really frustrating when you get such issues. At least the Jelco will give you a fresh start, but you will need to make sure you have a Linn armboard to hand, for your systemdek.

1. I've checked and re-checked and at no point is the arm getting anywhere close to the lift device. So definitely no scraping against the the lift lower device.

2. The dealer fit the cart in the arm using the entire deck that I brought into the shop.

3. Systemdek IIX. Came with the teardrop tonearm base.

I loved most of the time the way DL-103 performed on Systemdek and RB300. But there is no denying that something was amiss, since it could not reproduce more dynamic, louder passages. For example, on Joni Mitchell's "Car on the Hill" from "Court & Spark", there is the mid section with choir and some processed sounds, which with Denon sounds like an unbearable, screechy, cringe inducing mess. As soon as I put OM20 on, that illegible mess became sweet sounding soundscape, the way Joni meant it to sound.

So obviously DL-103 underperformed on my Systemdek, for some reason. OM20 seems to be having better luck here, save for the intermittent hiccups.

I'm mighty curious to hear how will DL-103 cope on Jelco. Most people claim that 10" Jelco should outperform RB300, so we'll see. Next week ;)

[Svend N]

1. I've checked and re-checked and at no point is the arm getting anywhere close to the lift device. So definitely no scraping against the the lift lower device.

2. The dealer fit the cart in the arm using the entire deck that I brought into the shop.

3. Systemdek IIX. Came with the teardrop tonearm base.

I loved most of the time the way DL-103 performed on Systemdek and RB300. But there is no denying that something was amiss, since it could not reproduce more dynamic, louder passages. For example, on Joni Mitchell's "Car on the Hill" from "Court & Spark", there is the mid section with choir and some processed sounds, which with Denon sounds like an unbearable, screechy, cringe inducing mess. As soon as I put OM20 on, that illegible mess became sweet sounding soundscape, the way Joni meant it to sound.

So obviously DL-103 underperformed on my Systemdek, for some reason. OM20 seems to be having better luck here, save for the intermittent hiccups.

I'm mighty curious to hear how will DL-103 cope on Jelco. Most people claim that 10" Jelco should outperform RB300, so we'll see. Next week ;)

Sounds like the teardrop base is the original(?). If so, then Steve was correct - the Rega arm is the wrong length! No wonder you're having problems then. And if you intend to mount the 10" Jelco on that same armboard then it will be even worse, as it's longer still than the Rega, by almost 20mm. You need the 9" arm to match the original Systemdek spec. Or have a new armboard made up for the 10" arm...

[magiccarpetride]

Sounds like the teardrop base is the original(?). If so, then Steve was correct - the Rega arm is the wrong length! No wonder you're having problems then. And if you intend to mount the 10" Jelco on that same armboard then it will be even worse, as it's longer still than the Rega, by almost 20mm. You need the 9" arm to match the original Systemdek spec. Or have a new armboard made up for the 10" arm...

I think we'll be looking into machining the armboard for the 10" Jelco. Worst case scenario, I'll start looking for a new turntable.

[Scooby]

Systemdek made armboards with Rega cutouts, so it's still possible the teardrop armboard is right for the Rega. You'd have to do a bit of fettling to get a Rega arm on a Linn armboard anyway because the hole is too big. If the hole on the armboard is the right size for the Rega arm, then it's highly likley it's the right mounting distance for the RB300.

[walpurgis]

I think we'll be looking into machining the armboard for the 10" Jelco. Worst case scenario, I'll start looking for a new turntable.

If you sell the Systemdek, you may end up wishing you hadn't. They are very capable.

[Scooby]

As always, personal taste comes into it, but I found very little positive in the two IIX models I owned. I haven't had the electronic version, but pitch stability on both standard models was very poor. Sound quality was also average at best. I'd never have another.

If I owned an SA 750D and DL103, I'd upgrade the deck.

[magiccarpetride]

If you sell the Systemdek, you may end up wishing you hadn't. They are very capable.

I don't intend to sell it. This turntable has soul. It is endlessly tweakable, and it responds favourably to tlc. And the sound it delivers is full of life. Compared to other turntables in its price range, Systemdek IIX leaves most of them in the dust. Many others sound dull, lifeless and drab next to Systemdek.

But if 10" Jelco cannot be mounted on it, I'll be forced to buy another turntable that can accommodate 10" tonearm.

[magiccarpetride]

As always, personal taste comes into it, but I found very little positive in the two IIX models I owned. I haven't had the electronic version, but pitch stability on both standard models was very poor. Sound quality was also average at best. I'd never have another.

If I owned an SA 750D and DL103, I'd upgrade the deck.

You and I seem to have the exact opposite taste in music. I adore Systemdek, you think it is poor. I am impressed with OM20's price-performance ratio, you think it is poor.

Finally I found the 'opposite me'! :eyebrows:

[Scooby]

You and I seem to have the exact opposite taste in music. I adore Systemdek, you think it is poor. I am impressed with OM20's price-performance ratio, you think it is poor.

Finally I found the 'opposite me'! :eyebrows:

Unless you also come to love the DL-103 when you hear it on a Jelco arm :)

I'm probably in a minority disliking the Systemdek, and you should be fine mounting the Jelco/Denon on it, albeit with a new armboard. The suspension will need quite a bit of adjusting for the extra weight, but that's one thing I did like about the deck: it's easy to adjust unlike, say, an LP12.

When you do come to fit the Jelco arm,,you might find this thread useful:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?34282-Jelco-SA-750D-mounting-confusion!

The "worst" thing I tried with the IIX was a Funk Firm Achromat. You might love it!

[magiccarpetride]

Unless you also come to love the DL-103 when you hear it on a Jelco arm :)

I'm probably in a minority disliking the Systemdek, and you should be fine mounting the Jelco/Denon on it, albeit with a new armboard. The suspension will need quite a bit of adjusting for the extra weight, but that's one thing I did like about the deck: it's easy to adjust unlike, say, an LP12.

When you do come to fit the Jelco arm,,you might find this thread useful:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?34282-Jelco-SA-750D-mounting-confusion!

The "worst" thing I tried with the IIX was a Funk Firm Achromat. You might love it!

I already adore DL-103. I just dislike how it handles dynamic passages on RB300, on my Systemdek, in my room, listened to with my ears ;)

Thanks for the valuable advice! Cheers :)

[Barry]

A friend of mine has a Systemdeck with the 'teardrop' armboard to which is fitted a Syrinx LE-1 tonearm. I think the LE-1 has an effective length of around 9", so I assume a 9" Jelco could also be fitted.

[magiccarpetride]

A friend of mine has a Systemdeck with the 'teardrop' armboard to which is fitted a Syrinx LE-1 tonearm. I think the LE-1 has an effective length of around 9", so I assume a 9" Jelco could also be fitted.

Jelco dealer who sold us the tonearm claims that 9" Jelco would be no improvement over Rega RB300. He said that once you go to 10" then the improvement will be noticeable.

[Svend N]

Unless you also come to love the DL-103 when you hear it on a Jelco arm :)

I'm probably in a minority disliking the Systemdek, and you should be fine mounting the Jelco/Denon on it, albeit with a new armboard. The suspension will need quite a bit of adjusting for the extra weight, but that's one thing I did like about the deck: it's easy to adjust unlike, say, an LP12.

When you do come to fit the Jelco arm,,you might find this thread useful:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?34282-Jelco-SA-750D-mounting-confusion!

The "worst" thing I tried with the IIX was a Funk Firm Achromat. You might love it!

Andy -- slight tangent to this thread, but I am considering the Achromat for my Heybrook. What was it you didn't like about it? So as not to drift this topic, feel free to answer in my Heybrook mat thread here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?57520-New-mat-recommendation-for-Heybrook-TT2

Thanks!

[Svend N]

I already adore DL-103. I just dislike how it handles dynamic passages on RB300, on my Systemdek, in my room, listened to with my ears ;)

Thanks for the valuable advice! Cheers :)

Alex, since you haven't answered the numerous questions re. RB300 mount point, it seems you may not be sure if the RB300 was in fact mounted correctly on your deck - i.e. proper mount point for it's longer length. Have you considered downloading a Rega mount template, printing it and checking it for yourself? Even if you do end up replacing it with the Jelco, it will tell you a lot about why these cartridges are performing the way they are for you. E.g. reassure you that the Rega bearings may not be to blame, where the cartridge sound and tracking faults originate, etc. If all is in order after all, at least it will rule out that variable.

Hope you figure it out. These sorts of issues are very frustrating.

Cheers,
Svend

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, since you haven't answered the numerous questions re. RB300 mount point, it seems you may not be sure if the RB300 was in fact mounted correctly on your deck - i.e. proper mount point for it's longer length. Have you considered downloading a Rega mount template, printing it and checking it for yourself? Even if you do end up replacing it with the Jelco, it will tell you a lot about why these cartridges are performing the way they are for you. E.g. reassure you that the Rega bearings may not be to blame, where the cartridge sound and tracking faults originate, etc. If all is in order after all, at least it will rule out that variable.

Hope you figure it out. These sorts of issues are very frustrating.

Cheers,
Svend

Great points, Svend, and my apologies for not being able to answer many of the questions. The thing is, I'm a novice (just switched to vinyl about a year ago) and often times I don't even speak the lingo, so I may not even understand the question (there are many interchangeable terms for what may be the same part on the turntable, and sometimes the confusion is between the North American and the UK variants in English).

I will download and print the blueprints, as you've recommended. My issue right now is that I'm all thumbs when it comes to printing to scale. Whatever I print ends up not matching the expected scale, so there's another thing I need to get a degree in before being able to proceed.

There's so many things to learn these days. Right now I'm in deep space nine trying to learn IoT (Internet of Things), blockhain, AI and conversational interface, big data, machine learning. The travails never end...

[Scooby]

This may help you when it comes to the Jelco 750D if you don't want to DIY your own armboard.

https://www.acoustand.co.uk/products/systemdek-iix-tonearm-board-solid-cast-polished-acrylic

[Svend N]

If you need any help with the template, printing or whatever, and want to take it offline so as not to clutter this thread, send me a PM and we'll sort it out via email or phone. Happy to help out...

Svend

[magiccarpetride]

If you need any help with the template, printing or whatever, and want to take it offline so as not to clutter this thread, send me a PM and we'll sort it out via email or phone. Happy to help out...

Svend

Thanks Svend :)

[magiccarpetride]

This may help you when it comes to the Jelco 750D if you don't want to DIY your own armboard.

https://www.acoustand.co.uk/products/systemdek-iix-tonearm-board-solid-cast-polished-acrylic

Lat week I tried ordering from that site, they only accept orders from UK and from Australia :(

[Haselsh1]

Following the slight deviation into Funk Firm Achromat territory, I have one on my Nottingham Analogue Interspace deck and it is bloody wonderful in my system. Without it the sound is fat and overblown especially in the upper bass but with it the sound is way more dynamic with much more control. It cleans up the whole sound with much greater precision.

[Svend N]

Thanks Shaun -- the Achromat sure seems to have a lot of fans. I wonder how it would sound on a Heybrook? I guess I'll have to take the finger out soon and just buy something and try it. :)