I'd like to try valve

[STD305M]

Hi all,
Im reasonably happy with my system but would like to try a Valve amp.
I have no idea what to look for and hope members with experience of valve amps could suggest where to start.
Looking for second hand but have no idea of cost or what would suit my system???

My current lash up is

Project 2xperience with recently purchased AT33ptg from a member

Cyrus CD8se

Rega Brio 2017

TEAC X-3 Reel to Reel

Dynaudio emit m20

Cables Klotz - Audioquest Diamondback - QED XT40

Any suggestions welcome

Regards Steve...

[hifinutt]

why steve do you think a valve would be better ? would it not be worth going up the rega amp tree ?

[STD305M]

Hi Phil
I have listened to the Elex and the Elicit, they are very good amps indeed but have the same tonal qualities as the Brio just fuller and a little more resolving.
I listened to a similar system to mine at a friends house but he was using a valve amp and i just preferred the sound, admittedly it was a a quite expensive valve amp made by EAR but it sounded fantastic, very different to the Brio and considering the rest of his system was so similar to mine.

Regards Steve

PS Not suggesting valve is better than all other amp types just want to try!!!

[Bigman80]

Don't start unless youre prepared to spend around £500 on a used unit. The cheap stuff will leave you feeling short-changed.

[STD305M]

Hi Oliver
Thanks, my buget is around £1,000 to £1,200

Regards Steve

[Bigman80]

Hi Oliver
Thanks, my buget is around £1,000 to £1,200

Regards SteveOooh, nice budget.

No doubt there's something out there for that.

[Haselsh1]

Mega valve amp fan since 1995 I would advise caution in moving into a future of valves. I am blatantly biased by valves clear superiority in the voice and midband but I am also aware that pretty much like vinyl, they can be a pain in the arse. Like vinyl they are highly addictive especially when you get hooked on swapping and trying other types of glassware (tube rolling) and like vinyl the whole concept is bloody expensive. My one piece of advice based on experience would be to stay away from cheap Chinese junk but have a damn enjoyable future experimenting. All the best.

[STD305M]

Oooh, nice budget.

No doubt there's something out there for that.

There might be but not sure what YET:)

[Jimbo]

Maybe try and borrow a valve amp first to try in your system before you buy?

[STD305M]

There must be something in the sound of valve or people wouldn't use them , Id just like to buy and try for myself and hopefully find the sound im looking for
Thanks for the info and advise

Regards Steve

[walpurgis]

There's a vintage Leak Stereo 20 somewhere in the Private Exhibitions for around £500.

Don't be put off by the age, they are amongst the more reliable valve amps. The sound quality is excellent and the 'mere' twelve watts is actually pretty punchy.

Handily, the Leak can be used effectively with a modest passive pre-amp very successfully. I've owned three of them and wouldn't mind another. Great bit of kit.

[STD305M]

Maybe try and borrow a valve amp first to try in your system before you buy?

Hi James,
I only know one person with a valve amp and its quite an expensive on so wouldn't think it would be possible to borrow it.

[snowman_al]

The Dynaudio emit m20 speakers will be the limitation and thing you need to think about.
They are relatively low sensitivity (86dbB) and low impedance at 4 ohms. You will need a powerful amp (in valve terms) to drive them and one with 4 ohm output taps transformer.

[Jimbo]

Ok then at your budget I would consider a Croft or Firebottle valve preamp and if you wanted an all valve power amp then as Geoff has suggested a Leak Stereo 20. I have had this combination and it sounded very good indeed. Good valve power amps are fairly expensive and would probably be outside you budget but if you wanted to try a hybrid then I would recommend a Croft Series 7. You would also need a Step up transformer or head amp for the AT MC cartridge but these can be found for a reasonable price second hand if you bought a Croft preamp but a Firebottle preamp has a MC phono stage built in.

Of course all these items would have to be sourced second hand to fit your budget but they all are usually available via sites like this, eBay or look on hifi shark.

[Sherwood]

I have been a long time user of valve amplification and still have an Art Audio Quintet power amp. Yes, valves offer a sound that is different from ss designs, but come with their own set of compromises. I would suggest that before committing to a valve design that you check out some of the newer amps that use pulse wave modulation technology including the latest Nuprime designs. I can thoroughly endorse the Nuprime designs and feel that they may offer what you are looking for in terms of SQ.

Geoff

[Lawrence001]

The Dynaudio emit m20 speakers will be the limitation and thing you need to think about.
They are relatively low sensitivity (86dbB) and low impedance at 4 ohms. You will need a powerful amp (in valve terms) to drive them and one with 4 ohm output taps transformer.

Totally agree, Dynaudio like lots of SS watts, unless you get some suitable speakers you will quickly tire of a lack of dynamics and tightness of bass and sell the amp on. Do it properly or not at all, a halfway house move to valves sadly won't work. Of course you can get a cheaper pair of speakers initially, Snells for example, and still get a cracking amp for £1000.

[Haselsh1]

Yeah certainly do agree with the comments made so far about speaker matching. It is essential to take care with low impedance speakers and low efficiency unless you have quite high Wattage and four Ohm outputs.

[Primalsea]

With your speakers you will most likely be better of with something a bit beefy like a good push pull amp.

[montesquieu]

The Dynaudio emit m20 speakers will be the limitation and thing you need to think about.
They are relatively low sensitivity (86dbB) and low impedance at 4 ohms. You will need a powerful amp (in valve terms) to drive them and one with 4 ohm output taps transformer.

Spot on. You need a pretty powerful valve amp to drive these, a minimum KT88 70w push pull pentode amp. I would disagree on the 12w Leak it’ll make a reasonable sound but fall well short of what’s available from these with more power.

Frankly I would advise different speakers if you want to explore the world of valves

[Bonky]

I'm in the same boat except my speakers are much more sensitive. As a dip-my-toe-in-the-water approach I plumped for a WorldDesign KEL84 amp (I like a bit of DIY so went for the kit form). They also do a KT88 design either power or integrated and there's a DIY option for those with sufficient skills.
Another option is a Class 'A' SS amp - perhaps a s/h Sugden?

(I've only just built my KEL84 amp -yet to test it or wire it up to speakers....fingers crossed!)

http://www.world-designs.co.uk/products.htm


R

[steveharman]

Definitely consider something like the Leak Stereo 20. World class sound from an amp that will at worst hold its value and if the past ten years are anything to go by, probably increase.

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=Leak+Stereo+20

The important part here being that it sounds great.

Seek out one that has been restored (new resistors and caps) if possible, although there are plenty of rebuild providers around who will do it for for, should you come across a really cheap Stereo 20 basket case. Classique Sounds in the UK Do a great job.

Steve

[walpurgis]

Frankly I would advise different speakers if you want to explore the world of valves

That would be my option. Not that keen on Dynaudio speakers anyway.

[STD305M]

Hi All
Has anyone got any ideas on (Pathos Classic Remix Hybrid Valve Amplifier) I can get it for a very good price also i might need to up the budget if i opt for the next choice which is the (KT88 Integrated 35W). Thats if either are good enough (power wise) to use in my system
Regards Steve...

[Bonky]

Addendum:
1. Avoid cheap Chinese Valve amps - especially those with transformers for 220V.
2. Also look at the website of the AffordableValveCompany here in the UK. They offer a 30 day 'try-before-you-buy' which could be useful. The website is a mess and, apparently, the rumour is that the head guy is not a very pleasant person to deal with (after the initial transaction). I hasten to add that I have no experience of this as I haven't been a customer and thus feel somewhat embarrassed at passing on such rumours. If in doubt do a Google search.

[walpurgis]

Hi All
Has anyone got any ideas on (Pathos Classic Remix Hybrid Valve Amplifier) I can get it for a very good price also i might need to up the budget if i opt for the next choice which is the (KT88 Integrated 35W). Thats if either are good enough (power wise) to use in my system
Regards Steve...

That's not a pure valve amp. It is (obviously) a 'hybrid'. Is that what you want?

[vintagesteve]

May I add my tuppence ha'penny worth here? In the early 80s I ditched my solid state (SS) set up and bought a Quad 22/II valve setup. It was in excellent condition when I bought it and I even replaced all of the noisy carbon composition resistors with very quiet, very accurate, stable metal film ones. I used it for a few years and for sure it sounded 'good', but at the end of the day it had its quirks and idiosyncrasies that you just don't get with a good solid state amp. Notably there always seemed to be a crackle due to a poor valve connection or switch contact, dicky valve or something. BTW, I'm a qualified electronics engineer and experienced vintage gear restoration person so rest assured those problems were not of my making, they were just 'there', and kept popping up every few months or so. They also lack power for good low end reproduction at higher volumes. Of course, that's just one experience, I'm sure a modern, well designed, well built valve amp would be better in many respects. Anyway, I went back to solid state after about five years and have never looked back. It was something I wanted to do, did it and was not particularly enthused by. Solid state is demonstrably so much better in so many ways. Of course, to all of those who use and like valve equipment, in no way am I saying they are somehow wrong, at the end of the day it's not just about specs, it's not even about what seems to sound best, it's the system or components that you enjoy using, that make you happy! For the record I am a confirmed vintage audio enthusiast with many valve radios. I also love vintage valve guitar amplifiers, many of which I have owned and worked on. For hifi, I just think that other than the 'vibe' of valve amps and tuners etc (which is great) SS is the way to go.

[Haselsh1]

To a point I agree with Steve. If you want floorstanders, electronic music and gut wrenching bass and kick drum then valves are never going to please. A hugely powerful tranny amplifier is going to grip those cones to death, a valve amp is not. If you want an astonishingly pure and open midband with the most exceptional vocal and acoustic instrument sound then a good valve amp is going to have you in tears. They have this liquid purity in the midband that I have never heard from trannies in forty years of listening. Of course, speaker matching is critical.

[Haselsh1]

Oh yeah, hybrid amps are being discussed are they not..? I have owned two over the years and though they are bloody good, they are not all valve and therefore do not sound the same as an all valve setup.

[STD305M]

That's not a pure valve amp. It is (obviously) a 'hybrid'. Is that what you want?

To be quite honest Im not exactly sure what i want, I heard my friends valve amp on a system similar to mine and thought it
was Awesome, so much emotion and resolution, It was like having the artist in the room!!!

[User211]

To be quite honest Im not exactly sure what i want, I heard my friends valve amp on a system similar to mine and thought it
was Awesome, so much emotion and resolution, It was like having the artist in the room!!!Just copy his system.

[symon]

There is a Leak Stereo 20 for sale - it’s mine and it’s still for sale at £500. :)

[STD305M]

Hi Peter
If it wasn't for the fact several members have mentioned that 20 watts is not enough to drive my Dynaudio speakers I'd snap your hand off..I cant afford to buy the amp and buy replacement speakers .
Thanks for the offer: :respect:

[Ninanina]

I've owned valve amps for about 15 years Steve and the only thing I would recommend is that you stick to one of the better known brands, there are lots of them, rather than some unknown/Chinese cheap versions. The reason I say this is that you want something that is going to be reliable and that if anything does go wrong you have some good backup so you are not put off valves for life

I stuck to good well known brands and I've had no problems, well actually one little problem but that was sorted quickly and very cheaply by the manufacturer, which just proves that valve amps can be just as reliable as ss

Older valve amps, like Leak and Quad and others, can also be good buys, even though they are old, because there is a very good knowledge base and most good hifi repairs can tackle them

I've owned Quad, Croft, Conrad Johnson, Decware and Audio Note... I'm sure I've missed some out but just cannot remember at the moment

I did own a couple of Chinese amps and while they were good for the minimal outlay they both lacked 'something' and I also knew they were both almost 'throwaway' items if they went wrong as they were not worth the expense of having repaired

The other information I can give you is not to worry too much about output wattage. I know it is difficult coming from ss, with all their huge outputs, to dismiss a valve amp on watts alone. As long as you have a reasonable match speaker wise you have nothing to worry about. The lowest output valve amp I owned was only 1.5w but partnered with the correct speakers it was perfect even in quite a large room

Your Dynaudio Emit M20 speakers are rated at 86dB but sensitivity is only a rough idea how easy/hard a speaker is to drive, it also comes down to their construction and to some extent the crossover and how large your room is etc. I would have been happy to try and drive your speakers even with the SET amps I've owned of about 8 - 10w

And one last thing, while I think about it, I would also recommend not going the hybrid amp route which normally use a valve in the pre section with ss taking care of the power side; I've owned 2 hybrids and I found them pretty boring sounding and not having the strengths of either a valve or a ss amp

Hope that might help Steve

[Sherwood]

I think you need to clarify what you are looking for in a new amp and whether you are willing:

a) to replace your speakers to a pair that will be better matched to a modestly priced and specced valve amp: or,

b) invest a significant amount on a valve am that will work with your current speakers.

I am guessing that you are attracted to the mid range presence of valve amps and the absence of high frequency grain and harshness.

As I said earlier, there are modern non-valve amps that can produce a valve like sound and yet still sound valve like.

The absolutely critical issue is not to lay out any cash until you have heard your intended amp and speakers working together.

Geoff

[STD305M]

I've owned valve amps for about 15 years Steve and the only thing I would recommend is that you stick to one of the better known brands, there are lots of them, rather than some unknown/Chinese cheap versions. The reason I say this is that you want something that is going to be reliable and that if anything does go wrong you have some good backup so you are not put off valves for life

I stuck to good well known brands and I've had no problems, well actually one little problem but that was sorted quickly and very cheaply by the manufacturer, which just proves that valve amps can be just as reliable as ss

Older valve amps, like Leak and Quad and others, can also be good buys, even though they are old, because there is a very good knowledge base and most good hifi repairs can tackle them

I've owned Quad, Croft, Conrad Johnson, Decware and Audio Note... I'm sure I've missed some out but just cannot remember at the moment

I did own a couple of Chinese amps and while they were good for the minimal outlay they both lacked 'something' and I also knew they were both almost 'throwaway' items if they went wrong as they were not worth the expense of having repaired

The other information I can give you is not to worry too much about output wattage. I know it is difficult coming from ss, with all their huge outputs, to dismiss a valve amp on watts alone. As long as you have a reasonable match speaker wise you have nothing to worry about. The lowest output valve amp I owned was only 1.5w but partnered with the correct speakers it was perfect even in quite a large room

Your Dynaudio Emit M20 speakers are rated at 86dB but sensitivity is only a rough idea how easy/hard a speaker is to drive, it also comes down to their construction and to some extent the crossover and how large your room is etc. I would have been happy to try and drive your speakers even with the SET amps I've owned of about 8 - 10w

And one last thing, while I think about it, I would also recommend not going the hybrid amp route which normally use a valve in the pre section with ss taking care of the power side; I've owned 2 hybrids and I found them pretty boring sounding and not having the strengths of either a valve or a ss amp

Hope that might help Steve
Sound advice indeed
I've no intention in making the mistake of going out and buying the first reasonably priced amp.
I will listen using my equipment where possible or at least a similar system.

Will keep everyone posted when i make my decision on what to get and a small review of what i think of valve:)

[maverick2000]

Hi Oliver
Thanks, my buget is around £1,000 to £1,200

Regards Steve

Steve
try to find someone you know who went to the Wam show in Kegworth, my room mate in 117 was running a John Wood bespoke KT88 (push pull) integrated into my power hungry 4ohm/85db speakers and was sounding awesome in IMHO on all types of music (I run a >500wpc SS amp and the KT88 amp compared very well). In fact so good once the amp warmed up my MF amp never got a look in, perhaps we played some loud stuff too often but it caused lots of big grins. It does vocals very well.
Within your budget I suspect, pictures on the wam or PM me

A number of people took John's number . . . . there maybe a queue ;)
cheers, Paul

[Lawrence001]

Addendum:
1. Avoid cheap Chinese Valve amps - especially those with transformers for 220V.
2. Also look at the website of the AffordableValveCompany here in the UK. They offer a 30 day 'try-before-you-buy' which could be useful. The website is a mess and, apparently, the rumour is that the head guy is not a very pleasant person to deal with (after the initial transaction). I hasten to add that I have no experience of this as I haven't been a customer and thus feel somewhat embarrassed at passing on such rumours. If in doubt do a Google search.

Sorry to say, but I think there's a contradiction here as AVC sells cheap Chinese valve amps imported into the UK. Of course, I would agree you should look at the website. It's very amusing, just don't buy an amp off them!

Some good Chinese valve amps are Opera (Consonance), Puresound and Prima Luna, don't confuse these with Douk Audio, Yaqin and Nobsound etc.

[Bourney]

I don't know your speakers but as a worry free and flexible introduction to valve amps, Primaluna is the place to start.
I've had a LOT of valve integrateds and I'm happily using a prima Luna Prologue 1. It's an excellent all rounder. Peak hifi had a prologue 2 in their used section last time I looked.

[Haselsh1]

Really do have to agree but then I would, I now use a Prima Luna Prologue 3 preamp and Dialogue Premium poweramp. They are serious pieces of kit in every way but they also cost quite a bit. An integrated version I think would be much better value for money. Regarding loudspeakers though, it is fairly essential that you use 'easy' to drive units with a fairly flat impedance curve. No dropping down to 3.2 Ohms here and there when the makers claim 8 Ohms. Once again, I hope you find a way forward and have the most amazing purity of sound. You won't get it with tranny amps.

[Haselsh1]

To be quite honest Im not exactly sure what i want, I heard my friends valve amp on a system similar to mine and thought it
was Awesome, so much emotion and resolution, It was like having the artist in the room!!!

Yeah, one of the things you will find with valves is the purity and natural quality of the sound. Not a hint of graininess or artificiality just a warm, highly involving sound with beautiful tones and textures. If you wanted even more of that my suggestion would be 300B single ended but that would require a complete rethink of loudspeakers.

[Bonky]

Sorry to say, but I think there's a contradiction here as AVC sells cheap Chinese valve amps imported into the UK.


Yes, you're right of course.

[vintagesteve]

It is somewhat ironic that the adjective heavy, lucid, dream-like descriptions awarded to valve audio equipment are based on something that they add to the signal, aka distortion, albeit of a kind that is easy on the ear and actually just plain 'nice'. Again, it's down to individual choice, there's no 'winners' in this game, no 'right' or 'wrong', it's what makes you happy. And as in life - in my opinion - happiness is always the final goal, not something that is a mere scientific fact or makes you enviable amongst friends, happiness is the goal. The fact that my route to happiness keeps morphing every few months is another matter and one that I try not to worry about.

[montesquieu]

Hi Peter
If it wasn't for the fact several members have mentioned that 20 watts is not enough to drive my Dynaudio speakers I'd snap your hand off..I cant afford to buy the amp and buy replacement speakers .
Thanks for the offer: :respect:

It's not 20 watts - the Stereo 20 has 10 watts - per channel that is (the figure 20 comes from adding the channels together). But to be fair, beefier than many valve amps rated far higher in terms of watts per channel. The output transformers are bigger and heavier than many cheap chinese valve amps' MAINS transformers and the distortion figures are pretty low for a valve amp.

Funnily enough a similar misconception applies to Radfords only in the other direction, the STA25 actually has 35w per channel. (More if you buy a Mk 5 from Radford Revival).

[Firebottle]

In reality you are going to get between 12 to 15 watts each channel from a Stereo 20, dependent in reality on the age and quality of the output valves.

Having heard one and serviced the same I would highly recommend the Stereo 20.
If you aren't after ear bleeding sound levels I think you should try one. They do hold their price exceedingly well due to their performance.

[montesquieu]

In reality you are going to get between 12 to 15 watts each channel from a Stereo 20, dependent in reality on the age and quality of the output valves.

Having heard one and serviced the same I would highly recommend the Stereo 20.
If you aren't after ear bleeding sound levels I think you should try one. They do hold their price exceedingly well due to their performance.

I think the 10w point is where it hits 0.1% distortion, at higher powers the distortion starts to climb.

Very few modern valve amps are anywhere close to 0.1% distortion. I heard of a valve amp last week boasting of 2% distortion at its rated power output which I think is shocking.

[anthonyTD]

Anyone who would like a standard unmolested Stereo 20, let me know, I have one sitting around doing nothing! :)
I even have the preamp, and Tuner to go with it.
A...

[hifinutt]

and this has just turned up

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/leak-stereo-20-fully-restored-by-g-t-audio.213585/

[philv]

For tne budget mentioned, the op could get an audio innovations s500 and snell j2.
A very nice introduction to valves.

Come sale time, or upgrade time, providing bought correctly from these or similar forums, he wouldn’t lose a penny.
And tney would be very easy to move on.

[sazeracrye]

Sorry to ccç you know cccyuI I am fam cifiicfiS4#zg&z

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[sazeracrye]

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[STD305M]

sazeracrye

Really have no idea what your posts are about?????

[walpurgis]

sazeracrye

Really have no idea what your posts are about?????

Nor have I. Some clarification of this code? Would be good.

[Barry]

Sorry to ccç you know cccyuI I am fam cifiicfiS4#zg&z

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

?????

[Ninanina]

It might as well be Swahili Steve as I have absolutely no idea what all this means... :eek:

[Gazjam]

Time to get the Banhammer out I reckon, another ‘comedian’...terrific.

Anyway back in topic.
Theres a lot of generalisation and stereotypes about valve amps circling about, unfortunately they can get quite pricey to get them to do what they REALLY do better than solid state.
Solid state amps do great things too of course, my own valve amp is a hybrid 300B SET (all 8 watts of her) and you kniw what, it pays to be open minded about this stuff and not sit firmly in a “my way is the only way” camp.
I think a lot of the negative stuff on valve amplification is based on reading online of peoples experience of compromised kit.
Read enough of that and a pattern builds up.

For a given budget it can sometimes be better to go with a great solid state amp that gets toward what a proper vslve amp can do.
If determined to go valves I’d recommend something from WAD?
An old post here on AOS but lets you see what the amps are like.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30024-2-WAD-Valve-Amp (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?30024-2-WAD-Valve-Amps)

At your budget I wouldnt get anything valve amp wise than this except maybe something from Croft.

*Edited for being typotastic*

[Ninanina]

Time to get the Banhammer out I reckon, another ‘comedian’...terrific.

Anyway back in topic.
Theres a lot of generalisation and stereotypes about valve amps circling about, unfortunately they can get quite pricey to really get them to do what they REALLY do better from solid state.

For a given budget it can sometimes be better to go with a great solid stste amp that gets toward what a proper vslve amp can do.
If determined tomgo valves I’d recommend something from WAD?
An old post here on AOS but lets you see what the amps are like.

At your budget I wouldnt get anything valve amp wise than this except somethijg from Croft.

Yes I think the "Banhammer" should come out Gazjam..

As far as the budget of £1k - £1.2k goes I can certainly recommend a good used Audio Note Oto which I owned for about 15 years and as long as 'suitable' speakers are used it can produce some lovely sounds... I owned a couple of Crofts, the Vitale pre and an integrated, the pre was very good but I didn't get on with the integrated and the Oto, to me, sounded far superior... just as long as the speakers are an easy load for any SET amp to perform at their best

[Gazjam]

Forgot about Audio Note, a good recommendation if you can find one within budget.

As you suggest Bev,
The choice of speaker is perhaps more important with valve amps that it might be with solid state.

[Ninanina]

Forgot about Audio Note, a good recommendation if you can find one within budget.

As you suggest Bev,
The choice of speaker is perhaps more important with valve amps that it might be with solid state.

I sold my immaculate and perfect AN Oto well within the budget but they don't come up that often so Steve might have to wait a while

Absolutely, the choice of speaker is more important with valve amps, especially low powered SET's, than with ss

[montesquieu]

Yes I think the "Banhammer" should come out Gazjam..

As far as the budget of £1k - £1.2k goes I can certainly recommend a good used Audio Note Oto which I owned for about 15 years and as long as 'suitable' speakers are used it can produce some lovely sounds... I owned a couple of Crofts, the Vitale pre and an integrated, the pre was very good but I didn't get on with the integrated and the Oto, to me, sounded far superior... just as long as the speakers are an easy load for any SET amp to perform at their best

Strong emphasis on the SET friendly caveat here ... on one of my forays with AN-E's I borrowed an Oto SE Phono Signature, supposedly top of the Oto line .. even with the E's I wasn't mightily impressed, but with non-SET friendly speakers (such as the 15in Tannoys I had at the time - OK I tried it for a laugh, I mean you have to), 10w of parallel triode strapped EL84s didn't feel like it was powerful enough to pull the skin off a rice pudding. (And in general I'm an EL 84 fan). I would most definitely check that it was sufficient for the needs of whoever was buying it. It's the same power section as is in the P1 incidentally.

[Ninanina]

Strong emphasis on the SET friendly caveat here ... on one of my forays with AN-E's I borrowed an Oto SE Phono Signature, supposedly top of the Oto line .. even with the E's I wasn't mightily impressed, but with non-SET friendly speakers (such as the 15in Tannoys I had at the time - OK I tried it for a laugh, I mean you have to), 10w of parallel triode strapped EL84s didn't feel like it was powerful enough to pull the skin off a rice pudding. (And in general I'm an EL 84 fan). I would most definitely check that it was sufficient for the needs of whoever was buying it. It's the same power section as is in the P1 incidentally.

Well I guess we are all different Tom as I found the stock Oto very good indeed which is why I owned it for so many years and to be honest I was quite reluctant to sell it

I used the Oto into Klipsch Heresys, Rega RS3's and the Living Voice Auditoriums and the LV's sounded the best with the Oto

[Gazjam]

SET friendly caveat...Hmnn, Tom knows whats hes talking about.
The games all about synergy, absolutely.

Its all subjective right enough, we all experience it differently. :)

[Ninanina]

I think if I had presented the Oto or Meishu with the Maggies they would probably have gone up in smoke... :eek:

[montesquieu]

Well I guess we are all different Tom as I found the stock Oto very good indeed which is why I owned it for so many years and to be honest I was quite reluctant to sell it

I used the Oto into Klipsch Heresys, Rega RS3's and the Living Voice Auditoriums and the LV's sounded the best with the Oto

Really just emphasising your point that speaker choice is crucial with this amp in particular, even more than it is generally.


I think if I had presented the Oto or Meishu with the Maggies they would probably have gone up in smoke... :eek:

LOL you aren't wrong there.

I remember I tried to hook up a 100w A&R Cambridge A100 to the Quad ESLs I had at the time, to see how they would sound. (Remember that 10w of PP EL84 Leak Stereo 20 is lovely with these). I heard a click. Two fuses blown. Not a note played.

Another time I had some Townshend Glastonbury floorstanders in (4ohm and very hard to drive) and initially tried to play themwith with some Audion 300b monoblocks. I swear at full volume hardly any sound was coming out. Yet the same 100w A&R made them sound really sweet.

It's a funny thing this business.

[Ninanina]

SET friendly caveat...Hmnn, Tom knows whats hes talking about.
The games all about synergy.

Its all subjective right enough! :)

Absolutely Gazjam

[Ninanina]

Really just emphasising your point that speaker choice is crucial with this amp in particular, even more than it is generally.

True enough Tom, speaker choice is absolutely crucial when using a SET, or any other very low output amp, is concerned

[Ninanina]

It's funny to me that I've kind of gone in the complete opposite direction... Maggies needing some oomph to get them going ... and finding that I still like what I hear after 15 years of single figure output valve amps and easy to drive speakers... :eek:

I guess it just proves there are so many different ways to 'skin the cat' :doh:

[Ninanina]

It's a funny thing this business.

Absolutely it is Tom ;)

[Gazjam]

Yup.

[garrard]

I have been a long time user of valve amplification and still have an Art Audio Quintet power amp. Yes, valves offer a sound that is different from ss designs, but come with their own set of compromises. I would suggest that before committing to a valve design that you check out some of the newer amps that use pulse wave modulation technology including the latest Nuprime designs. I can thoroughly endorse the Nuprime designs and feel that they may offer what you are looking for in terms of SQ.

Geoff


I am a big fan of valve amps and have built quite a few myself, especially SET. More recently I have found I was perfectly happy to replace my 2A3 SET power amp with a digital amp, just as long as I kept my valve phono and line preamps. Nice combination.

[steve-z]

I’m wondering if valve amps of today are anymore reliable than they were 30years ago, back then I ran a Beard P35 power amp for about 4 years. I had to be repaired twice in the first year which wasn’t a good sign. After that I spent as much time on it with a soldering iron as I did listening to it. It had a recurring habit of valve regulator failure and corresponding failure of its valve, must have replaced all 12 of them eventually, then the mains transformer went up in smoke, literally!
Got a replacement transformer then sold it on, was glad to see the back of it, sounded lovely when it was working, had real synergy with my ESL63s.


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[Firebottle]

Sounds like (excuse the pun) the design was a bit compromised in ratings, or near max dissipations.
I like to de-rate as much as possible so as to keep temperatures low and ensure very long lifetimes.

:)

[Haselsh1]

Sounds like (excuse the pun) the design was a bit compromised in ratings, or near max dissipations.
I like to de-rate as much as possible so as to keep temperatures low and ensure very long lifetimes.

:)

Yep, exactly the same as Prima Luna do.

[garrard]

I’m wondering if valve amps of today are anymore reliable than they were 30years ago, back then I ran a Beard P35 power amp for about 4 years. I had to be repaired twice in the first year which wasn’t a good sign. After that I spent as much time on it with a soldering iron as I did listening to it. It had a recurring habit of valve regulator failure and corresponding failure of its valve, must have replaced all 12 of them eventually, then the mains transformer went up in smoke, literally!
Got a replacement transformer then sold it on, was glad to see the back of it, sounded lovely when it was working, had real synergy with my ESL63s.


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That was not typical of valve gear even back before that. One example, AKAI reel to reel tape recorders started out with valve amps in them. I have seen 4 examples in recent years that turn on a still work perfectly. The seldom needed any servicing in the day (except for mechanical things). Nice sounding little valve amps btw.

I have played valve guitar amps all my life, and gear like that gets totally thrashed. Loaded up in trucks and carted around, and played at 110% on stage. Other than replacing output valves occasionally, or a fuse, I can remember having to do an actual repair maybe three times in 40 years on either my amp, or other band members amps. Once the bias resistors on the output cooked, and once, and resistor in the power supply went o/c. One other time on an amp from the 1950s an electro cap spat is guts :) messy but easy to fix.

No valves are not as reliable as SS, but they aren't all that bad either. A well designed hifi amp should be good for the lifetime of the valves (which is longer than many believe) a few times over.

[Haselsh1]

Possibly not as reliable as solid state amps but then solid state amps are not going to compete on sound quality.

[Macca]

Possibly not as reliable as solid state amps but then solid state amps are not going to compete on sound quality.

Bit early in the morning to be cracking open a can of worms isn't it? Still, I suppose it is the holidays, might even join you.

[struth]

There is a giant John wood amp in the classifieds. Should do u

[walpurgis]

Possibly not as reliable as solid state amps but then solid state amps are not going to compete on sound quality.

Depends.

[Jonboy]

Slippery slope all this valve stuff I’ve had loads and it’s all down to personnel prefence and of course symmetry , If you don’t want to change your speakers then perhaps go the valve pre route to start with.
I have a pair of Audio Note AZ2 floor standers here and a pair of Audio note Zero power amps that you are welcome to have a listen to as we live in the same county , the speakers are excellent sounding and built for valves but the Amps won’t drive your speakers

[Bonky]

Have you looked at the World Design web page ? (http://www.world-designs.co.uk/products.htm).. The KEL84 is regarded as a 'giant-killer' and can be purchased in kit form or already made.

(I have just built the KEL84XL kit).

The owner (Matthew Snell is an absolute delight - very helpful).

[Haselsh1]

Bit early in the morning to be cracking open a can of worms isn't it? Still, I suppose it is the holidays, might even join you.

:eyebrows:

[Haselsh1]

Talking from personal experience of course I once heard a tranny amp that kicked me in the nuts with it's sound quality. That was back around 1983 and was a Musical Fidelity 'The Preamp' and a 'Dr Thomas' power amp. Since then I have heard all bloody sorts of stuff but nothing comes close to a good valve midrange and treble and even then you can swap it all around by changing power valves. I'm sure there are really good tranny amps out there, maybe.

;)

[Macca]

Talking from personal experience of course I once heard a tranny amp that kicked me in the nuts with it's sound quality. That was back around 1983 and was a Musical Fidelity 'The Preamp' and a 'Dr Thomas' power amp. Since then I have heard all bloody sorts of stuff but nothing comes close to a good valve midrange and treble and even then you can swap it all around by changing power valves. I'm sure there are really good tranny amps out there, maybe.

;)

There's only 3 valve power amps I have heard that I would use myself. Radford, Marco's Tube Distinctions and Alan Firebottle's OTL (the bigger of the 2 he had/has).

Those three are the only ones that have sounded 'right' to me. Of them the only one you can buy nowadays either used or new is Radford.

All the others either sounded poor ( getting hard/harsh sounding with complex programme) or sounded glorious but a little soft and not quite real. Certainly not the way playback in a studio sounds like.

Of course there are a lot of valve power amps I have not heard.

[chris@panteg]

I do like a good Triode amplifier, one of the best I've heard or to personal taste anyway is the Border Patrol 300b se or the PP version with the accompanying choke input filter psu, it sounds surprisingly strong with good clean bass, along with the lovely mids and highs.

[Marco]

There's only 3 valve power amps I have heard that I would use myself. Radford, Marco's Tube Distinctions and Alan Firebottle's OTL (the bigger of the 2 he had/has).

Those three are the only ones that have sounded 'right' to me. Of them the only one you can buy nowadays either used or new is Radford.


Au contraire, mon ami... If someone were to thrust £5k into Anthony's hands today, then in the fullness of time they're be the proud owner of a Copper amp!;)

Marco.

P.S Don't underestimate the significant influence of the Croft on what you heard...... It's a pairing, after all, and trust me, the Croft has been voiced (very carefully by me) to bring out the best out in the Copper amp.

[Macca]

Au contraire, mon ami... If someone were to thrust £5k into Anthony's hands today, then in the fullness of time they're be the proud owner of a Copper amp!;)

Marco.

.

Oh right, I thought he had packed it in. Well that's good if you've got the five grand, well worth considering.

[Bigman80]

Oh right, I thought he had packed it in. Well that's good if you've got the five grand, well worth considering.Pretty sure an OTL could be prised from Alan's hands too, Although, the Monoblocks carry more of a passing sonic resemblance. Some might say "uncanny" similarity [emoji6]

[Marco]

Oh right, I thought he had packed it in. Well that's good if you've got the five grand, well worth considering.

Niento... It's just not something he does much of now, simply because there's so much work involved in producing them, as (properly laid out) point-to-point wired circuits are, which in my view is the best way to built a valve amp.

PCBs are fine, but they add their own 'sonic signature' to proceedings, which I can usually hear. Anthony's amps start out with a pencil and paper - so everything is built by him from scratch to his spec.

Marco.

[Gazjam]

Alternative valve topologies are available.. :)

[Marco]

Indeed - and I'd certainly put Nick's designs into the same category.

Have you fitted that mains lead yet? :)

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

Back in the days of the Ramada Hi-Fi show I had countless opportunities to listen to all kinds of equipment at my local dealer and all of the then hi-fi shows. Later in the mid nineties I became a dealer myself selling valve amps, turntables and high sensitivity speakers. It was so easy in those days to get to listen to endless gear and do some direct comparisons but that was of course twenty years or more back in the past. Recently I had the opportunity to listen to lots of valve gear and for me and Sue the clear winner was Prima Luna. I really didn't want that old 60's style of warm, woolly sound that for me belongs way back in the past. What I was looking for was a more modern approach but still with that classic valve purity and liquid midrange. I certainly have that in bucket loads. We have now lived with our pre and power combo for around a year and a half and I have no intention of changing for anything else. To the OP, I can only suggest that if it is at all possible, get out there and listen. You really cannot make a true decision until you do. And, try and do a direct comparison between valves and tranny amps. There are valve amps out there that can do so much more than eight Watts per channel. Again, I wish you success in your search. Enjoy the journey.

[Gazjam]

Indeed - and I'd certainly put Nick's designs into the same category.

Have you fitted that mains lead yet? :)

Marco.

I have!
Fitted it to the silver plated double socket and brings a nice improvement, so thanks mate.

I’ll be rewiring the whole balanced mains kit n caboodle with this cable, or as close as I can get to it.
The french solid core stuff you got for me was way better than the Lapp cable I was using initially, but this Furukawa wire is a step above again.

I know its discontinued, but there seems to be a newer version of it available?
http://www.audiocomav.co.uk/unterminated-power-cord/284-oyaide-ee-fs-20-v2.html

Here comes the “Science Bit”...
Info on the new cable here:
http://www.canyonaudio.si/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Creating-the-Ultimate-Copper-Oyaide-new-102-SSC-conductor.pdf

wotcha fink Boss?

[Mike Reed]

Despite owning Armstrongs, Rogers, Quads and RCAs way back in the 60s, 70s and early 80s, I don't consider myself knowledgeable at all about valved amplication. For some reason I just happened to try two E.A.R. 509s against my Naim 135s, and kept them.

More recently I added the 912 pre., ending a decade of Naim 552 ownership. There is absolutely no question from any of the local hifi enthusiasts or me of the sheer musical enhancement of these replacements, though powering big ESLs may have something to do with it.

However, despite being as happy as a sand-boy, I often wonder what other quality push-pulls would bring to the party. Unfortunately, alternatives seem to be American (ARC and the other one whose name escapes me). A complication is that I have matching and compatible amp's/speakers, so it's probably not a case of substituting only one aspect. There are British valved amp. manufacturers, but I wonder if any do monoblocks.

[chris@panteg]

Despite owning Armstrongs, Rogers, Quads and RCAs way back in the 60s, 70s and early 80s, I don't consider myself knowledgeable at all about valved amplication. For some reason I just happened to try two E.A.R. 509s against my Naim 135s, and kept them.

More recently I added the 912 pre., ending a decade of Naim 552 ownership. There is absolutely no question from any of the local hifi enthusiasts or me of the sheer musical enhancement of these replacements, though powering big ESLs may have something to do with it.

However, despite being as happy as a sand-boy, I often wonder what other quality push-pulls would bring to the party. Unfortunately, alternatives seem to be American (ARC and the other one whose name escapes me). A complication is that I have matching and compatible amp's/speakers, so it's probably not a case of substituting only one aspect. There are British valved amp. manufacturers, but I wonder if any do monoblocks.

Border Patrol make the S20 and P20 but I think they are dual mono types but with two psu's, one for each channel.

[Gazjam]

At your budget Steve, I'd look no further that World Audio Designs amps.
Always a risk buying second hand (been stung myself) and you'll be getting a brand new amp built by guys that REALLY know their stuff - and they are UK based.

http://www.world-designs.co.uk/index.htm

Seriously, cant stress this enough...this is your answer.


Hi all,
Im reasonably happy with my system but would like to try a Valve amp.
I have no idea what to look for and hope members with experience of valve amps could suggest where to start.
Looking for second hand but have no idea of cost or what would suit my system???

My current lash up is

Project 2xperience with recently purchased AT33ptg from a member

Cyrus CD8se

Rega Brio 2017

TEAC X-3 Reel to Reel

Dynaudio emit m20

Cables Klotz - Audioquest Diamondback - QED XT40

Any suggestions welcome

Regards Steve...

[mikeyb]

At your budget Steve, I'd look no further that World Audio Designs amps.
Always a risk buying second hand (been stung myself) and you'll be getting a brand new amp built by guys that REALLY know their stuff - and they are UK based.

http://www.world-designs.co.uk/index.htm

Seriously, cant stress this enough...this is your answer.

I’d second this about the WAD amps, I had Tony’s EL84 power amp on loan and it really worked well with my Tannoys, I did have the chance to buy it, but I wanted more power so bought a Primaluna power amp instead, but if a WAD XL had come up for sale I would have bought that instead, but at the time there were hardly any valve amps for sale on any of the forums, and of course now that I’ve bought the PL there are loads of alternatives on offer.

Bear in mind though, in my case it wasn’t just about buying any EL84 amp, the WAD was great in my setup, but the EL84 monoblocks that Tony also loaned me at the same time just didn’t do well at all.

If I hadn’t liked the PL Amp so much I’d have been more than happy with a WAD, in fact I still might as I think the EL84 sound suits my ear slightly better than the EL34 sound, but the PL amp was a great price and it can take all manner of KT tubes which I the end sold it to me, that and the fact that I like concert level volume at times and the PL certainly gives me that [emoji6]

[philv]

The ming da piccalo in the classifieds is a very nice amplifier.
Add some sensative speakers such as snell j2 and you have a very nice valve setup.

Should be easy to move on if you decide to upgrade/change later.

[Lawrence001]

Get the LVs just listed and a valve amp for about £600 and you're sorted!!

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[Bourney]

Part of the reason the LVs are for sale is that an old flame amp of mine has become available (art quintet) and i would love to try it with my WLMs as I think it would be perfect... so I could do the LVs and a primaluna dialogue 1 for £1000 for the two. It's a nice sounding combo.

[chris@panteg]

The LV's and then maybe audio innovations series 500 integrated or a Puresound A30 and you'll have a very nice introduction to the valve sound.

[anthonyTD]

Audio inovations A 300 is also a great little amp, if you can find one! :)
The LV's and then maybe audio innovations series 500 integrated or a Puresound A30 and you'll have a very nice introduction to the valve sound.

[chris@panteg]

Audio inovations A 300 is also a great little amp, if you can find one! :)

Yes indeed, there was one for sale recently on the bay, they don't seem to come up very often.

[Lawrence001]

Part of the reason the LVs are for sale is that an old flame amp of mine has become available (art quintet) and i would love to try it with my WLMs as I think it would be perfect... so I could do the LVs and a primaluna dialogue 1 for £1000 for the two. It's a nice sounding combo.I PM'd the OP saying that Art amp on hifi for sale looked ideal, hope I didn't scotch your plans!

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