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monya
13-03-2010, 15:48
Ah yes - foo stuff.
Had the original audioworks recoil + mains block powering my stuff but upgraded about 3 weeks back after a decent home trial.
Now have a 3m cable to the new block which has an iec socket rather than a captive lead. From this are 3 other revive leads to the hardware. These new cables have a mesh shroud over a double run of the original cable plus a few other changes I'm told. The terminations are Furutech rhodium plated 3 pin and very fancy iec at the hardware end.

The bottom line is a substantial increase in image depth, ambience and drive into the system. It sounded good before but it seems like it's been turbocharged. .

One thing surprised me - I use a Vertex Jaya which was plugged ito the adjacent wall socket after experimentation with the old power cables. With the new cables everything sounded a bit plummy with a narrowing of the soundstage and a lack of air around brushed cymbals and the like. I thought at first it was the new cables and was going to have second thoughts. Then I moved the filter to the block instead and - hey - everything opened up again with the advantages that the new cables bring well in evidence.

Why I know not but that's how it is. Foo sceptics need not comment.

DSJR
13-03-2010, 16:02
Please introduce yourself before the forum police get ya!!! :lol:

Mark Grant makes really excellent top end mains leads too for around £50 each. Marco here tells us that they beat his £750 "Transparent Audio " ones.....

The Grand Wazoo
13-03-2010, 16:05
............and while you're at it, put yer willie away.............no-one wants to see that!

..........especially not on the first date, eh?

monya
13-03-2010, 17:03
............and while you're at it, put yer willie away.............no-one wants to see that!

..........especially not on the first date, eh?

Sorry - you've lost me already.
I've discovered the error of my ways. Humblest apologies to all readers. Will keep my gob shut for a while.

monya
13-03-2010, 17:21
Please introduce yourself before the forum police get ya!!! :lol:

Mark Grant makes really excellent top end mains leads too for around £50 each. Marco here tells us that they beat his £750 "Transparent Audio " ones.....

Yes, so I've read on another thread.

Steve Toy
13-03-2010, 18:25
No don't keep your gob shut. Both Marco and I are big fans of the Music Works Reflex block. I've been using one for a couple of years and intend to get it upgraded to IEC Plus spec soon. Marco intends to buy one.

As for the leads it would be interesting to see if they better the Mark Grant ones that replace Recoil leads in my system.

On the subject of foo this is a subjectivist forum and this section is dedicated to discussing ancilliaries. The use of the word 'foo' as a derogatory term is a bannable offence :eyebrows:

Themis
13-03-2010, 18:34
Foo sceptics need not comment.
No worries : AoS forums is not a battlefield used for ridiculing others, it's against our ethos.

monya
13-03-2010, 18:40
Cheers for that - good to not have the feeling of walking on glass.!!
Must try the Mark Grants sometime. If they're better, in my system (big qualifier here) I'll be eating humble pie forever. At the moment though, I'm well happy.

technobear
13-03-2010, 19:49
In my experience, rhodium plating does funny things to the mains. A huge soundstage was the most obvious manifestation I found. I settled for gold in the end but I will try the rhodium again one day.

It wouldn't be a fair fight against the MGs unless they were also equipped with rhodium plated plugs.

Spectral Morn
13-03-2010, 20:21
Hi Monya


This isn't ZG...you are safe here :)


Regards D S D L

monya
14-03-2010, 11:48
In my experience, rhodium plating does funny things to the mains. A huge soundstage was the most obvious manifestation I found. I settled for gold in the end but I will try the rhodium again one day.

It wouldn't be a fair fight against the MGs unless they were also equipped with rhodium plated plugs.

You are not alone in going for gold. Whilst researching mains cables I contacted lessloss.com who are distributing throughout much of Europe and the USA operating from Lithuania.
For a UK cable I would have to send them a Fufutech uk 3 pin as they use Oyaide who don't make UK versions. However, the head honcho advised me to send a gold plated version in preference to rhodium which he considered to become more tiring over a period of time on some recordings.

DSJR
14-03-2010, 14:08
You are not alone in going for gold. Whilst researching mains cables I contacted lessloss.com who are distributing throughout much of Europe and the USA operating from Lithuania.
For a UK cable I would have to send them a Fufutech uk 3 pin as they use Oyaide who don't make UK versions. However, the head honcho advised me to send a gold plated version in preference to rhodium which he considered to become more tiring over a period of time on some recordings.

Why not get your energy supplier to re-wire their entire supply grid with these wires, gold plated connections too?

Gold plated sounding better than rhodium on a mains lead indeed :steam:

Some people need to get a life I reckon :lolsign:

technobear
14-03-2010, 14:18
Why not get your energy supplier to re-wire their entire supply grid with these wires, gold plated connections too?

Gold plated sounding better than rhodium on a mains lead indeed :steam:

Some people need to get a life I reckon :lolsign:

Hearing is believing :ner:

I spent a week comparing various mains plugs and IECs with silver, gold and rhodium plating. In fact they were lent to me by another member of this esteemed forum.

I know what I heard. It wasn't subtle.

chris@panteg
14-03-2010, 14:27
Hi Chris

What was the best sounding in your view ?

I just thought if only Paul Benson (of hifi review ) remember him , was posting on here , it would be a riot , would it not :)

technobear
14-03-2010, 15:21
Hi Chris

What was the best sounding in your view ?

I just thought if only Paul Benson (of hifi review ) remember him , was posting on here , it would be a riot , would it not :)

Just try having this conversation on a certain tent-shaped forum :lolsign:

I found the silver a bit too brightly lit for the system I had at the time but I may not have let the silver plugs burn in enough as they are known to take longer than the others to settle down.

I found the gold to be quiet and transparent with a believable soundstage and a clear step up from a regular mains plug (even one with polished pins although that is well worth doing IMHO).

The rhodium was very interesting. The huge soundstage was immediately evident. The sound was huge and spacey but it seemed like an effect to me. It made everything sound huge and spacey - a bit like some MF kit does. I decided it was a bit much and that it would annoy me after a while.

I bought two sets of the gold-plated ones (they are Furutech's). They were not cheap and sadly are now much more expensive still. The good news is that there are now more and cheaper options available.

Themis
14-03-2010, 18:07
Why not get your energy supplier to re-wire their entire supply grid with these wires, gold plated connections too?

Gold plated sounding better than rhodium on a mains lead indeed :steam:

Some people need to get a life I reckon :lolsign:
It has been a harsh week and the weekend is no better, Dave ? :scratch:

Sure a rhodium connector is not of much use on mains leads, though... and if there are differences they don't come from them. There are surely better ways of getting better current, when needed. ;)

Steve Toy
14-03-2010, 18:49
Hearing is believing. I believe what I hear and I trust my esteemed fellow contributors not to be lying about what they hear. Beyond that theories exist to support experience not to discredit it.

< moderating.>

Also, the means of getting the current you need is only as strong as its weakest link.

Themis
14-03-2010, 19:08
To be clear, I do not put into question what some people hear. But I sometimes put into question their cause->effect conclusions as to why differences are there. ;)

Steve Toy
14-03-2010, 19:43
Dimitru I'm not sure what you are insinuating and I'm not sure it belongs here.

Themis
14-03-2010, 20:21
I thought it was clear, though... :o

In other words, subjective opinions cannot be questioned nor challenged, but objective (scientific or other) ones can (and often must) be questioned and challenged.

Is that wrong ? :scratch:

Steve Toy
14-03-2010, 20:57
Subjctive opinions cannot be challenged without resorting to the ad hominem of questioning either the judgement or the integrity of the person outlining their subjective experience.

This forum is designed specifically to allow exchanges of experiences unhindered by the narrow minded egotistical sceptiics. This particular section is for discussing the effects of ancilliaries.

Your viewpoint has been heard ad infinitum elsewhere. It does not need to be crapping on threads here.

<Moderating>

Marco
14-03-2010, 21:12
I think you've misunderstood Dimitri, Steve! :doh:

Marco.

Themis
14-03-2010, 21:13
Oh, well, nevermind. I'm sorry if my writing is unclear. :o

Steve Toy
14-03-2010, 21:27
I don't think I have. Rhodium is compared to gold for contacts and gold is prefered. Unless there is a hierarchical issue of the rhodium showing up weaknesses upstream, the gold connectors are therefore preferable. I fail to see how there could be any other causal relationship.

Alex_UK
14-03-2010, 21:29
Subjctive opinions cannot be challenged without resorting to the ad hominem of questioning either the judgement or the integrity of the person outlining their subjective experience.

This forum is designed specifically to allow exchanges of experiences unhindered by the narrow minded egotistical sceptiics. This particular section is for discussing the effects of ancilliaries.

Your viewpoint has been heard ad infinitum elsewhere. It does not need to be crapping on threads here.

<Moderating>

You're suggesting this is Dimitri? If so, then you are moderating a different forum to the one I have been reading!

Spectral Morn
14-03-2010, 21:44
I have heard the same mains lead plated with Rhodium and without. The addition of Rhodium gave the music a more open and detailed reproduction, with greater weight and scale,more stage depth and width [not overblown though] better bass and a slightly sweeter treble. The cable company in question is TCI (True Colours Industries). Their playing around with Rhodium etc lead to the development of the TCI Boa Constrictor mains cable, The effect of plugging it into a component is dramatic and one of those gob smacking moments one can not deny hearing. Now whether the effect suits a system or component is another matter. It does not suit all the time, so is no universal item, but when it works wow!

I use these mains cables in my set up, but not on every component..and mostly digital ones.

Now why different plating materials make a difference...I don't know, but I have heard it in this case and in others as well...go figure.


Regards D S D L

technobear
14-03-2010, 22:03
Sure a rhodium connector is not of much use on mains leads, though... and if there are differences they don't come from them. There are surely better ways of getting better current, when needed. ;)

I'm with Steve on this one. Dimitri, I do not understand what you are trying to say. If you are not questioning my hearing (and that of others) then what are you questioning?

I can assure you that in the tests which I conducted, the mains plugs and IEC plugs were all identical Furutech models using the same materials and the same cryogenic and magnetic treatments. The ONLY difference was the plating on the plugs pins. I changed nothing else.

I performed most of the testing on the ATC SIA2-150 integrated amp because this seemed to show the greatest effect from these changes of plating material.

I cannot offer an explanation of why this makes a difference. I could probably come up with several theories but without a well-equipped laboratory I have no way of testing any of them. As I haven't suggested any theories yet, I do not know with what you are disagreeing.

I am happy to rely on my ears and would love to try rhodium plated plugs with the Croft amp some time.

Themis
14-03-2010, 22:05
Was that the King Constrictor series, Neil ?

I wonder why the plating materials would make a difference, too. I hoped for long someone could explain, but... oh well, we are left with our own impressions in the end. Pity.

Themis
14-03-2010, 22:13
I'm with Steve on this one. Dimitri, I do not understand what you are trying to say. If you are not questioning my hearing (and that of others) then what are you questioning?

I can assure you that in the tests which I conducted, the mains plugs and IEC plugs were all identical Furutech models using the same materials and the same cryogenic and magnetic treatments. The ONLY difference was the plating on the plugs pins. I changed nothing else.

I performed most of the testing on the ATC SIA2-150 integrated amp because this seemed to show the greatest effect from these changes of plating material.

I cannot offer an explanation of why this makes a difference. I could probably come up with several theories but without a well-equipped laboratory I have no way of testing any of them. As I haven't suggested any theories yet, I do not know with what you are disagreeing.

I am happy to rely on my ears and would love to try rhodium plated plugs with the Croft amp some time.
I was looking for an explanation Chris, it's my nature. You don't have it, I don't have it either (at the moment), it's not a big deal.

Thanks for your comments and tests. ;)

Spectral Morn
14-03-2010, 22:16
Was that the King Constrictor series, Neil ?

I wonder why the plating materials would make a difference, too. I hoped for long someone could explain, but... oh well, we are left with our own impressions in the end. Pity.

The Boa is the top cable in that range. TCI offers the cheaper cables, with or without Rhodium plating, after finding it had such (mostly) a positive effect on the mains cables who's plugs are plated with it. The Boa was a private project developed for a customer who liked TCI cables, but wanted a higher end cable. The end result was so good, TCI put it into full production. The Rhodium plating is only part of what makes the Boa such a good cable.

TCI also tackled MK about the current quality of their plugs, and the lack of use of silver plated fuses (we talked about this on AOS a number of months ago). MK were not interested. I know at one time TCI were talking about designing and producing their own plug...not sure what came of that ?

I know Andrew of TCI quite well, though I haven't seen him in over a year.


Regards D S D L

Themis
14-03-2010, 22:31
I understand better, now. :)
Seems like the King Constrictor is between the Super and the Boa. They don't seem to have any info on their using their own plug (at their site). It's perhaps the case, mind you, but they don't advertise it.

Spectral Morn
14-03-2010, 22:52
I understand better, now. :)
Seems like the King Constrictor is between the Super and the Boa. They don't seem to have any info on their using their own plug (at their site). It's perhaps the case, mind you, but they don't advertise it.

I suspect that they aren't yet using their own plug. That idea may not have come to anything...credit crunch etc. Andrew had some great ideas for it though...hope it happens...some time in the future perhaps.

The first review I wrote on any forum (ZG) was a comparison of TCI Boa, with Audience and Analysis Plus. The reaction was so hostile, that I eventually removed it...talk about calls to burn the witch. Sadly I did not make a copy of that write up....I deleted it from the forum and lost it.


Regards D S D L

Themis
14-03-2010, 23:04
Sadly I did not make a copy of that write up....I deleted it from the forum and lost it.


:doh: :( What a pity...

(it happened to me once too, about a digital cable. In my case, I was angry and never went back to the forum again)

Spectral Morn
14-03-2010, 23:06
:doh: :( What a pity...

(it happened to me once too, about a digital cable. In my case, I was angry and never went back to the forum again)

I tried to fight my corner, but was eventually driven off ZG, by a few members and moderators. Ultimately I learnt it was the wrong place for me. Though there are some great people there...who I miss.

Anyway enough of that...their loss was AOS's gain :)


Regards D S D L

Steve Toy
14-03-2010, 23:15
The ZG objectivist editorial line sealed the forum's fate. Now you just see the tumbleweed.

Steve Toy
15-03-2010, 20:02
I think I may have misunderstood Dimitri's position on this. It looked as though his questioning the cause and effect was a suggestion that any differences between rhodium and gold connections were imagined.

I apologise for any misinterpretation on my part.

Steve Toy
15-03-2010, 20:08
Sure a rhodium connector is not of much use on mains leads, though... and if there are differences they don't come from them. There are surely better ways of getting better current, when needed.




To be clear, I do not put into question what some people hear. But I sometimes put into question their cause->effect conclusions as to why differences are there. ;)


The above two quoted passages above were what I believed to be doubting the findings that a gold connection is preferable.


In other words, subjective opinions cannot be questioned nor challenged, but objective (scientific or other) ones can (and often must) be questioned and challenged.


I read irony into this that obviously wasn't there. I thought Dimitri was being sarcastic. Now I realise he wasn't and genuinely believes, rightly so, that scientific explanations should lend themselves to scrutiny while subjective experiences are just that and cannot be challenged without resorting to ad hominem attack.

Apologies Dimitri. In public.

DSJR
15-03-2010, 20:30
I swear this comment isn't sarcasm, but when you change a plug with rhodium plating for a plug with gold plating, you're using two different leads (?) and removing and plugging in the plugs is bound to have an effect on gear sensitive to such things. Removing one plug from a lead and replacing with another isn't really a fair difference either, as the internal cabling is disturbed and there will be a time lag between hearing one and the other - a sure fire thing to add possible confusion...

If you guys can genuinely hear these difference and it matters to you, then good luck and enjoy your (expensive) fun. perhaps I'm just past all that now :door:

Steve Toy
15-03-2010, 22:24
Fair comment Dave you have outlined a possible variable. That's ok. We now need further experimentation to eliminate such variables.

Marco
15-03-2010, 23:02
I read irony into this that obviously wasn't there. I thought Dimitri was being sarcastic. Now I realise he wasn't and genuinely believes, rightly so, that scientific explanations should lend themselves to scrutiny while subjective experiences are just that and cannot be challenged without resorting to ad hominem attack.



I think I may have misunderstood Dimitri's position on this. It looked as though his questioning the cause and effect was a suggestion that any differences between rhodium and gold connections were imagined.


Alex UK and I tried to tell you this last night (and further also me today), and that you'd got it wrong, but you still stubbornly insisted you were right, and I have to be honest here, in the process made a complete cock-up of the situation! :rolleyes:

At least though you've had the balls to admit you've made a mistake, and have apologised to Dimitri, which is to your credit. I'm sure he'll accept it in the right spirit, and we can then put the whole sorry misunderstanding behind us.

Next time try not to be so defensive and remember that English is not his first language, eh?

Marco.

technobear
15-03-2010, 23:15
The difference in the sound was VERY obvious. It didn't require careful listening over multiple tracks such as I have experienced when trying to compare decent interconnects or even decent DACs like the Caiman and the Transporter. The difference between gold and rhodium was immediate and as I say, VERY obvious.

Marco
15-03-2010, 23:30
I've also experienced this too, Chris, so I know exactly what you're talking about - and yes, the sonic difference is significant! :)

I've recently been in contact with the UK distrubutor for Furutech (Chris at Sound Fowndations - and no, that wasn't a typo) regarding the new 'FP-1363-S' 13A sockets, using pure copper conductors, which are available either Rhodium or Gold plated.

I'm thinking of rewiring my mains block with some and putting them on the mains filter Anthony TD is currently building for me, so stay tuned for a full write-up! :cool:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
15-03-2010, 23:35
I've also experienced this too, Chris, so I know exactly what you're talking about - and yes, the sonic difference is significant! :)

I've recently been in contact with the UK distrubutor for Furutech (Chris at Sound Fowndations - and no, that wasn't a typo) regarding the new 'FP-1363-S' 13A sockets, using pure copper conductors, which are available either Rhodium or Gold plated.

I'm thinking of rewiring my mains block with some and putting them on the mains filter Anthony TD is currently building for me, so stay tuned for a full write-up! :cool:

Marco.

Thought it was Sounds of Music (Metropolis Music) ? They took Furutech on after they dropped Audience a few years back. May have changed though.

Just checked and not only do they not do Furutech, but no Hovland either. Take your eye of the ball and its all change.




Regards D S D L

Marco
15-03-2010, 23:44
Hi Neil,

I'm not sure, mate. I simply used the details listed in their (Sound Fowndation's) full-page advert for Furutech products on page 20 of this month's HFW.

I spoke to a chap there called Chris, who was most helpful :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
15-03-2010, 23:50
Hi Neil,

I'm not sure, mate. I simply used the details listed in their (Sound Fowndation's) full-page advert for Furutech products on page 20 of this month's HFW.

I spoke to a chap there called Chris, who was most helpful :)

Marco.

See my edit above. You are right and I am wrong.

Lots of distribution deals changing at the moment, or so it seems. Those who were doing brands are not any more. Even those who have been doing brands for years.


Regards D S D L

Marco
16-03-2010, 00:00
No worries, dude - things are changing all the time... It'll be interesting to see though what the Furutech sockets bring over the Crabtrees I'm using at the moment.

I've got to wait though until around mid April, as the sockets are only coming in to the UK from Japan on 5th April :)

Here's a copy of the email I received from Chris:


Hi Marco,

The UK wall sockets are brand new, in fact they're just going through BS1363 certification, the first shipment will leave Japan on the 5th April. I have some pre production samples which are simply gorgeous, and the fitting is the tightest I have ever used...

There are several dealers currently taking backorders for these, and I would recommend you do so in order to guarantee availability - these will be extremely popular.

You can find a list of dealers on www.soundfowndations.co.uk, or simply send me your location and I can advise on the closest recommended dealer.

Kind regards,
Chris Green
Sound Fowndations

T - 07789 307 619


I've always rated Furutech products, simply because they're designed using solid engineering principles, and not "foo". They're expensive, yes, but in my opinion worth it if your system is at the final stage of simply putting the icing on the cake, which is where I'm at now :cool:

Marco.

Mark Grant
16-03-2010, 09:47
In my experience, rhodium plating does funny things to the mains. A huge soundstage was the most obvious manifestation I found. I settled for gold in the end but I will try the rhodium again one day.

It wouldn't be a fair fight against the MGs unless they were also equipped with rhodium plated plugs.

Hello Chris,

People keep asking me if I have any Gold or Rhodium connectors so I am working on it :)

Mark.

technobear
16-03-2010, 10:21
Hello Chris,

People keep asking me if I have any Gold or Rhodium connectors so am I working on it :)

Mark.

That's good to hear Mark, because the Furutech products are ludicrously expensive.

Snoopdog
16-03-2010, 16:59
Thought it was Sounds of Music (Metropolis Music) ? They took Furutech on after they dropped Audience a few years back. May have changed though.

Just checked and not only do they not do Furutech, but no Hovland either. Take your eye of the ball and its all change.




Regards D S D L

Neil,

Chris at Sound Fowndations used to work for Activ Distribution (Audiophile Candy) before they folded and is a really nice guy. He lives near me and although he does not deal directly with the public, he was happy to supply my preferred dealer (Blade Audio) with my order for Furutech FI-50 & 52 IEC plugs that are now fitted to my MusicWorks mains cables.

Hovland anounced not long ago that they were ceasing trading, hence why no longer imported by SOM.

monya
16-03-2010, 18:44
I really have no idea if the Furutech hardware contributes to the sound of mains cables and am happy to take Snoopdog's word for it. Certainly the new Audioworks cables are a big step up from the old ones but how much the improvement is down to the Furutechs as opposed to the wire I have not a clue.
For sure though, they look the biz. Showed them to a couple of electricians here this afternoon who looked and said 'bloody hell'.
Am thinking about the Furutech wall socket but maybe that's going tooo far.

Themis
16-03-2010, 19:02
I think I may have misunderstood Dimitri's position on this. It looked as though his questioning the cause and effect was a suggestion that any differences between rhodium and gold connections were imagined.

I apologise for any misinterpretation on my part.
Thank you Steve, I feel much better. Indeed I have no position about the connectors' effects, as I have never tried anything myself. I was seriously considering of not commenting on any non technical-only subject, feeling that I was (obviously) failing to make my positions clear.

On the other hand, I feel the need to apologize too, and promise to be still more careful in my way of stating certain things.
I'm even more to blame, as I was conscious that Steve has been very badly treated on another forum when he commented Mark's mains. A hard experience, that I wouldn't have liked to experience myself. So, I should have known better.
Moreover, as I had already questioned myself seriously about another subject regarding cables recently, my own inecrtainties were probably too much a pressure on a similar subject.

So, my apologies, too. I think from now on, I will start another thread were we could make a list of possible alternatives and causes, instead of mixing it all up in the same thread. :cool:

EDIT: If it took too long to answer, it was solely because of several trips and exceptional work agenda. I am probably going to change employer/position so job discussions are bit "tensed" right now. ;)