Biggest bang for the buck/pound/euro, top to bottom

[magiccarpetride]

Opinions differ when it comes to determining which component in audio reproduction chain imputes the biggest difference. My (somewhat tentative) list is below; curious to learn other members' priorities:

1. Turntable
2. Wall mount shelf
3. Tonearm
4. Speakers
5. Cartridge
6. Phono stage (including SUT for LOMC)
7. interconnects
8. Power amp
9. Preamp
10. RCM
11. Power conditioning
12. Speaker cables
13. Speaker stands
14. Component isolation (spikes, sorbothane feet, etc.)

NB: I stopped listening to digital audio, so digital transport and DAC and digital coax cables didn't make it to my list.

[Yomanze]

Speakers at #1 for me, with room setup (sofas, soft furnishings, breaking up the room) and positioning as being very important here. I think coupling / decoupling (isolation) techniques have more of an impact than cables, and that speaker cable has more of an impact than interconnects, with digital cables having the least impact, if any.

There are also matching considerations, for example making sure an amp can properly drive the speakers.

[bumpy]

Opinions differ when it comes to determining which component in audio reproduction chain imputes the biggest difference. My (somewhat tentative) list is below; curious to learn other members' priorities:

1. Turntable
2. Wall mount shelf
3. Tonearm
4. Speakers
5. Cartridge
6. Phono stage (including SUT for LOMC)
7. interconnects
8. Power amp
9. Preamp
10. RCM
11. Power conditioning
12. Speaker cables
13. Speaker stands
14. Component isolation (spikes, sorbothane feet, etc.)

NB: I stopped listening to digital audio, so digital transport and DAC and digital coax cables didn't make it to my list.

Its a bit of a contradiction with wall mount shelf at #2 and component isolation at #14. They are very similar in benefit.

[Macca]

Ignoring the fact that they are all, to an extent, interlinked:

Speakers
Room
Pre amplifier
Power Amplifier
CD player
Cables and interconnects

None of that other stuff Magic listed.

Stopped listening to vinyl so that doesn't make it to my list ;)

But I'd say

Turntable
Phono stage
Cartridge
Arm

Although I'm torn between whether cart or arm is more important. I used to think the arm hardly mattered, doh! And I'm always amazed how many people who are really into vinyl underestimate what a difference the phono stage makes. It's really worth spending the bucks there folks.

[Jimbo]

Ignoring the fact that they are all, to an extent, interlinked:

Speakers
Room
Pre amplifier
Power Amplifier
CD player
Cables and interconnects

None of that other stuff Magic listed.

Stopped listening to vinyl so that doesn't make it to my list ;)

But I'd say

Turntable
Phono stage
Cartridge
Arm

Although I'm torn between whether cart or arm is more important. I used to think the arm hardly mattered, doh! And I'm always amazed how many people who are really into vinyl underestimate what a difference the phono stage makes. It's really worth spending the bucks there folks.

I would swap speakers and room round on your first list as the room dictates the speakers to a great extent especially as we listen to 80-90% reflected sound?:)

[Macca]

Maybe so. Although I've had the same room for 20 years so I suppose I'm used to it now.

[Primalsea]

Assuming that all the equipment is decent and provides a noise that you like, I would put the speakers at the top of teh list. I believe that the speaker / room interaction is the thing that dominates. Next would be speaker stands or bases, then room furnishings, assuming that your room is not completely bare to start with.

[Pharos]

I pretty well agree with your list Macca;

Speakers
Room
Pre amplifier
Power Amplifier
CD player
Cables and interconnects

But I'm wondering now about my own CD player, criticised by friends, and also its position or relevance because so many say that streaming quality is better.

[Marco]

Ignoring the fact that they are all, to an extent, interlinked:

Speakers
Room
Pre amplifier
Power Amplifier
CD player
Cables and interconnects


Lol... The key difference in our thinking is the placing of due importance on the quality/musical capabilities of the source, no matter whether it's a CD player or a turntable. Yes, in the case of the latter it matters more, but that doesn't render the former as insignificant;)

I can assure you that if I removed my (heavily modified) Sony transport and DAC, the sound of which you loved, and replaced it with something sonically inferior [insert your preferred example here] you'd hear it, regardless of what the Tannoys were doing at the end. All they'd do is highlight what was wrong upstream!

Quite simply, no amplifier or pair of speakers, further down in the music chain, can make up for the deficiencies (small or otherwise) of the source components, no matter how talented the former are at performing their respective tasks.

The only way you'd sign up to the mantra of CD players (or any other digital sources) not mattering much in the grand scheme of things, as you've indicated above, is if you're firmly in the camp of 'all CD players sound the same', or virtually the same, providing that they're 'competently designed' and measure that way.

Given your documented experiences in that area, however, especially with the Technics broadcast players you own, which when working, you claimed pissed all over any other players you've had in your system, I'd have thought would've precluded you from occupying that camp.....

Honestly, the main reason why CDs sound as they do in my system, and which captivated you so when you were round, is directly because of the quality of the Sony transport and DAC - and crucially how they've been judiciously modified. The other components in the system are simply making the most of the music signal they've been fed by the source.

Also, I'd put speakers and room (and how they interact together) into the one category: that of exerting most influence on the sound. They should therefore be effectively considered as a 'system', simply because one automatically influences the other, and to a huge degree.


Turntable
Phono stage
Cartridge
Arm

Although I'm torn between whether cart or arm is more important. I used to think the arm hardly mattered, doh!


Lol - and you're *still* not placing sufficient importance on it! It's the tonearm that's directly responsible for how the cartridge behaves, thus how accurately it's able to extract information from the grooves, without introducing unnecessary distortion. It's *fundamentally* important to the whole process.

That fact is obvious when you consider how much any [even tiny] adjustment carried out to the arm (in respect of VTA or whatever) influences the sound you hear! :)

Therefore with a turntable the order of hierarchy is always thus:

1) Turntable (motor unit itself and associated components, plinth, bearing, PSU, etc)
2) Tonearm
3) Cartridge

...then the quality of the phono stage comes into play.

However, as I was saying before with CD players, the phono stage, likewise, can't make up for any deficiencies in the job done by what came before it (as listed above), so you need to maximise the ability of all of those items, and in turn extract maximum information from the vinyl records themselves, in order to allow the phono stage to perform its function to the best of its ability.

However, I agree, too many folks, in a vinyl replay system, place more importance on the preamp than the phono stage - and THAT is a big mistake!!

Marco.

[Macca]

I pretty well agree with your list Macca;

Speakers
Room
Pre amplifier
Power Amplifier
CD player
Cables and interconnects

But I'm wondering now about my own CD player, criticised by friends, and also its position or relevance because so many say that streaming quality is better.

Which CD player is it?

[speedracer]

I think it largely depends on what level of sound you are aiming for. There are many good value for money components that if chosen wisely would make a decent sound together for not a lot of money. However, if you are aiming rather higher you need to think a little differently. For me, as a vinyl lover, the turntable has to be first, making sure it has a good motor to turn at the right speed, & a good bearing for consistency. This then has to be partnered with a good arm, and if these are well chosen then even a budget cartridge will sound good, and can be improved upon later is money is tight. I have always thought that the phono stage is very important, in fact I spent more money on my PS than I did my amp, and went through about 8 of them in just over a year before I settled on what I have now. It is extremely flexible as well which means in my case i don't need a separate preamp, and has variable gain so I can match it with pretty much any cartridge I want.
I have found, from personal experience, and especially if you buy used, the amp to matter not so much. I have tried many in my system recently and while none have bettered my own, to my ears at least, the sound from all of them was easily good enough to live with if I had to. Lastly the speakers, but certainly not last in importance, and again I have tried many in a short space of time, they not only have to sound good in their own right, and with your gear, but I would say interaction with the room is the biggest thing to get right.

[57charles]

1. Speakers
2. Room/furnishings
3. Everything else

[sumday]

Kids
Wife
Music....

Everything else is cosmetic.

[Macca]

Kids and wife are just foo. Total waste of money.

[walpurgis]

A pair of brand new boxed Tannoy Eatons for £200.

They were wicked!! Best bang for the buck you could ask for.




Mind you, it was 1978 and that's how much they were new anyway. :D

[Pigmy Pony]

Ears, definitely ears. If they're not working right, everything else is pointless.

[magiccarpetride]

Ears, definitely ears. If they're not working right, everything else is pointless.

Mood, definitely mood. If the mood is not there, everything else is pointless ;)

[magiccarpetride]

Its a bit of a contradiction with wall mount shelf at #2 and component isolation at #14. They are very similar in benefit.

I'd think that ill effects of mechanical noise are much harder on the mechanical machinery (turntable/motor/platter/tonearm/cartridge/stylus/cantilever) than they are on the components that have no moving parts.

[Pharos]

It is a AVI S2000 with an add on Series (something) MC4 I believe.
(I can't ATM get access to it to check. because of the lounge refurbish).
It was their last, reviewed in the April '02 Hi-Fi News.

[Macca]

It is a AVI S2000 with an add on Series (something) MC4 I believe.
(I can't ATM get access to it to check. because of the lounge refurbish).
It was their last, reviewed in the April '02 Hi-Fi News.

That's a pretty serious player. You could get something that sounds different, but something that sounds better might be difficult. There's no intrinsic sound quality advantage in streaming over using a CD player. A streaming set-up may sound better, or worse on an individual comparison with a particular cd player, there's no hard and fast rule though.

[Pharos]

Thanks for the reassurance Martin, it is MC24 I now think.

[Macca]

Thanks for the reassurance Martin, it is MC24 I now think.

Well don't take my word for it ;) But once you are beyond a certain level of quality in the process of reading the file (whatever medium the file is stored on) and translating that into electrical current there's better things to worry about further down the chain.

Vinyl is a whole different ballgame.

[montesquieu]

My take

1) Amp & Speakers - they operate as a unit and have to work together. Regardless of how good one or other is, if they aren't right for each other you are wasting your time and nothing will sound good, regardless of what you feed them. The foundation of any system, it's where you need to focus your biggest attention, at least until you know you've cracked it. Cheap sources can always be improved over time but the foundation needs to be there or you just end up going round in circles. Pick speakers you like and buy an amp to suit. Or buy an amp and pick the perfect speakers for it. This bit is not necessarily about spending a shed load of money and is where the biggest bang for the buck is. (It is of course possible to make an expensive amp or set of speakers sound rubbish with the wrong pairing).

2) Sources. I'm a vinyl guy but others may differ of course. In my view this is where it gets seriously spendy especially in the vinyl area, but also with digital if you want to attempt to get it sounding anywhere near as good as a top vinyl setup. But you can get reasonable sounding digital for not much. If short of cash, focus on amp and speakers and improve sources when funds allow.

3) Ancillary bits (cables, supports, mains treatment etc etc). Worth fiddling with once you fix the other stuff, but beyond 'quality' budget level, probably a bit pointless until 1 and 2 are fully sorted out. Spending fortunes here will not permanently fix issues of synergy between amp and speakers for example, though it might temporarily improve things a bit, until the underlying problem starts to annoy you again. In my view a lot of purchases in this area serve mainly to alleviate anxiety (sort of hygiene factor) rather than achieve any significant sound improvement (though big improvements are nevertheless possible for example with mains where there is a specific local issue). Yes cables can sometimes make things sound different but if I have a system issue my efforts will always focus primarily on the root cause, not on wire swapping.

Having said all that one of the best value purchases I've made has been a Loricraft PRC6.

[Yomanze]

^^ Yep I too group amps and speakers together. A world class amp into some speakers can be rubbish into others, and vice versa.

[Marco]

Regardless of how good one or other is, if they aren't right for each other you are wasting your time and nothing will sound good, regardless of what you feed them. The foundation of any system, it's where you need to focus your biggest attention, at least until you know you've cracked it. Cheap sources can always be improved over time but the foundation needs to be there or you just end up going round in circles. Pick speakers you like and buy an amp to suit. Or buy an amp and pick the perfect speakers for it.

All of the above is good advice, especially regarding the "foundation", and such an approach should work, *providing* [and I can't stress this enough] that once you've done the latter (one or the other above, highlighted in bold), there's still sufficient budget left to spend on a source that's *just as good as the amp or speakers*, and that does them justice.

Otherwise, I'm afraid I still sign up to the mantra of: 'mediocre in, mediocre out' (I prefer that to the more commonly used 'garbage', as I consider it more accurate in reality), and you'll simply end up with an uninspiring sound, albeit 'well controlled' by the amp and speakers - but if both of those are genuinely high quality, then they'll also be ably capable of revealing the shortcomings of the source, and that state of affairs will remain only for as long as you can stand it;)

Personally, I've never been able to live longterm with a budget (commercially produced) digital, or especially, vinyl source, in front of a highly capable amp and speakers, as I'm usually all too aware of the former's deficiencies.

That's why when these types of threads arise, I always advocate the building of a 'balanced' system, with the available budget spread as evenly as possible across the main system components [keeping a sensible percentage back for ancillaries], with perhaps just a little more spent on speakers, as all else being as equal as possible, they (in conjunction with the room) will always exert most influence on the final sound.

Marco.

[jandl100]

All of the above is good advice, especially regarding the "foundation", and such an approach should work, *providing* [and I can't stress this enough] that once you've done the latter (one or the other above, highlighted in bold), there's still sufficient budget left to spend on a source that's *just as good as the amp or speakers*, and that does them justice.


Nah, you are equating cost with quality. I don't agree that there is such a relationship.

Speakers - yeah, spend a bundle.

Then play around with amps and sources at any price level to find synergies that you enjoy.

(I'm ignoring vinyl playback here)

[Marco]

Nah, you are equating cost with quality. I don't agree that there is such a relationship.

Speakers - yeah, spend a bundle.


Yes, because very often that's the case. Not always, of course, but I can hear a thin, bright, tinny-sounding budget CDP or DAC (powered by a cheap, grainy sounding SMPS or plastic DVD-ROM transport mech), as clear as day, and it bugs my ears big time - and gives digital a bad name.

Now I agree that chucking money at it isn't an automatic cure, but the simple fact is good engineering costs money - and good engineering is vital to the sound of good digital replay, especially with CD players!

As for your last bit, well that's just typical from a speakers-first fanboy:ner::eyebrows:;)

Marco.

[jandl100]

:lol:
And as soon as I saw your "source first" first post I thought Flat Earth Flat Earth*. :ner: :lolsign:

* now there is a hifi religion that belongs in the dustbin of history. :exactly:

[Marco]

Oh I fully agree! But 'source first' doesn't have to mean flat earth... And more importantly, I'm not advocating a 'source first' approach, but rather a sensibly balanced one! :)

Marco.