Frugel horn. Would somebody care to explain the design?

[walpurgis]

The Frugel Horn is a speaker that keeps cropping up here, but it's also one that has a few questions around it's design and implementation.

Pictures of these I've seen here show it situated and used as a free standing speaker, yet I understand it is a corner design. In other words, I assume it should be positioned tight into a corner for wall reinforcement from the corner angles, which would form the horn flare/termination. This suggests to me that nobody is using them correctly.

Also, the cabinet starts off as what appears to be a quarter wave type horn, only to feed the rear exit through a small vent more suited to a reflex design, which I suspect is what it is in reality (Castle used a similar design). It certainly is not a true quarter wave horn.

Is anybody able to shed some light?

http://i68.tinypic.com/29m0rva.png

[Bigman80]

I've been offered a loan of a pair of these. I hadn't picked up that they should be used in a corner either, probably due to ignorance lol.

Does the siting have a massive effect on these in your theoretical opinion, Geoff?

[walpurgis]

Does the siting have a massive effect on these in your theoretical opinion, Geoff?

If, as stated on the website, they are corner horns, then the correct siting is crucial. A corner horn will not work properly otherwise. Bass depth and impact will suffer.

[Bigman80]

Bit pointless borrowing them then [emoji23][emoji23]

Cheers Geoff. PS, I'm harassing Bob about Tannoys lol

[CageyH]

MIne work fine not far from the back wall. I don’t feel that they lack bass.
Electric Beach have also developed something to sit behind the speaker to aid with positioning.

[walpurgis]

BTW, is that drawing the latest version? There seems to have been various different incarnations.

Who knows? And, yes I know.

[walpurgis]

MIne work fine not far from the back wall. I don’t feel that they lack bass.
Electric Beach have also developed something to sit behind the speaker to aid with positioning.

If you're happy thats all that matters.

[Stratmangler]

My FH3s work fine up against a solid (brick) wall.
The flare to the rear of the cabinet is an extension of the horn.

[walpurgis]

The point seems to be getting missed. Users may like the results they are getting, but has anybody tried them tightly into corners? That would seem to be the intended way to use them.

And, there are no replies yet about the cabinet design. Is it even a true horn?

[Macca]

Small single range driver, upside: no crossover, no phase shift, direct coupling with the amplifier.
Downside: no bass, unless you count lower mids as bass (I know lot of people do), limited HF response.

I don't think sticking them in a corner would really help unless you are a fan of the Audionote comedy mid-bass hump.

[Macca]

It's a bit of a fallacy that a single driver has no phase shifts. They do have phase shifts.

Ouch :eyebrows:

They can have I suppose, but not as bad as a typical 2-way. Not that it makes a massive difference in any case.

And yes, I'm not a fan of those Audionote speakers and the price is ludicrous for what they are.

[Stratmangler]

The phase shifts are at the frequency extremes rather than slap-bang in the middle of the audio range, so possibly less noticeable.
No, I'm not a big fan of so-called full range drivers either. I think I'd be more interested in a frugalhorn with a more conventional two-driver arrangement.

Wot, like this?

https://s17.postimg.org/o4wj1bn33/20180314_131619.jpg

[Macca]

But you've still got the awful colourations from the horn, you've still got no bass, and now you've got a load of x-over components in there too. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Stratmangler]

But you've still got the awful colourations from the horn, you've still got no bass, and now you've got a load of x-over components in there too. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

What awful colourations?
There are none.

[Stratmangler]

I suppose so... or anything that uses the frugalhorn cabinet concept but with a bass/mid + tweeter instead of the full range driver. Of course, you have to get the crossover right or else there's no point. That's probably easier said than done.

The design is for a single wide bandwidth driver.
The only reason for the tweeter helper is because there's an obvious roll off at the top end of the drivers I have in my speakers.
If you want something like a conventional speaker get a conventional speaker.

[jandl100]

This does seem to be "one of those" threads where folks who haven't heard the items under consideration are having great fun putting the boot in.
Not really in the spirit of AOS, imo.

I've not heard Frugelhorns but some folks whose ears I have a reasonable degree of trust in say they are very good.

[walpurgis]

The design is for a single wide bandwidth driver.
The only reason for the tweeter helper is because there's an obvious roll off at the top end of the drivers I have in my speakers.

Yes. I suspected that may be an augmented full range set-up. The tweeter no doubt not having a great deal to do. I assume it comes in at maybe 12kHz or above.

[walpurgis]

This does seem to be "one of those" threads where folks who haven't heard the items under consideration are having great fun putting the boot in.

I started the thread 'cos I had a few questions.................that so far nobody seems able to answer.

[walpurgis]

You're probably more experienced with speaker building and speaker design than me, but that doesn't look like a true horn - the driver is nowhere near the throat.

A quarter wave horn operates on the same principal as a quarter wave acoustic column, it relies on the 'column' of air contained being energised by the driver and produce a partially in phase output at low frequencies. It does not act as a waveguide in the way a BLH or Tractrix does. The driver can be situated almost anywhere along the line/horn and still work.

[Stratmangler]

Yes. I suspected that may be an augmented full range set-up. The tweeter no doubt not having a great deal to do. I assume it comes in at maybe 12kHz or above.

That's not a bad guess - the corner frequency is 13kHz according to the crossover calculators, and it's a first order filter.
The driver is an Alpair 7.3, and the quoted spec doesn't quite tell the full story. Thankfully the response curves do show where the roll off occurs

[walpurgis]

I don't think sticking them in a corner would really help unless you are a fan of the Audionote comedy mid-bass hump.

The corner presumably acts as a continuation of the horn originating in the cabinet, meaning that the corner shape should be regarded as part of the speaker. The major flare of the horn mouth actually. Bass should be very clean and well controlled, so no hump if the design is good.

[walpurgis]

That's not a bad guess - the corner frequency is 13kHz according to the crossover calculators, and it's a first order filter

A first order filter should be just right in that application, why complicate things?

[Stratmangler]

A first order filter should be just right in that application, why complicate things?

Absolutely!
You do have to attenuate the tweeter properly - with 6dB per octave slopes it's easy to overcook things. Just 1 octave down and you're playing in the 7 to 7.5kHZ area, which is very readily apparent if things are too hot.

[walpurgis]

Downside: no bass, unless you count lower mids as bass (I know lot of people do), limited HF response.

You can get deep enough bass from small drivers. The output will be limited, but the depth can be surprising. Anybody remember the 'Daline' design using a five inch KEF B110?

Here (it's not in English): http://forum2.zelfbouwaudio.nl/viewtopic.php?t=11984

It was capable of output down to 30Hz.

[anthonyTD]

What speakers are they Chris ?
The design is for a single wide bandwidth driver.
The only reason for the tweeter helper is because there's an obvious roll off at the top end of the drivers I have in my speakers.
If you want something like a conventional speaker get a conventional speaker.

[Stratmangler]

What speakers are they Chris ?

Alpair 7.3 wideband and ERT-26 tweeter.

[anthonyTD]

Ahh, ok, what about the cabinet, I am asking as I have some Jordan Drive units that I am toying building something with.
Alpair 7.3 wideband and ERT-26 tweeter.

[walpurgis]

The corner coupling idea is not new. See in this drawing of the Klipsch Corner Horn where the walls form part of the speaker horn.

.
http://i66.tinypic.com/aa04p.png

[anthonyTD]

Lowthers posibly ;)
Maybe I'm prejudiced against full range drivers after hearing some horrible examples with very "shouty" treble.

[Stratmangler]

Ahh, ok, what about the cabinet, I am asking as I have some Jordan Drive units that I am toying with building something with.

Frugel Horn FH3.

http://p10hifi.net/FH/images/FH-Mk3-comp.jpg

[Stratmangler]

Maybe I'm prejudiced against full range drivers after hearing some horrible examples with very "shouty" treble

A number of Fostex wideband drivers have a rather unpleasant 7kHz hump.
Notice I didn't use the term "full range".

[anthonyTD]

Ahh, ok, I wasnt sure as you only posted the part of the cab with the drive unit in!:)

Frugel Horn FH3.

http://p10hifi.net/FH/images/FH-Mk3-comp.jpg

[walpurgis]

I'm tempted to try some simple single-driver speakers, just to satisfy my curiosity

If you really want to push the boat out. Look at Feastrex full range drivers.

http://lotusgroupusa.com/Feastrex1.htm

The prices are eyewatering! :eek:

[Macca]

This does seem to be "one of those" threads where folks who haven't heard the items under consideration
.

Well I can't speak for anyone else but I have.

Not putting the boot in either but these speakers make what I personally consider to be unacceptable compromises. Happy to accept that for someone else that will not be the case. If someone is going to get all emotionally hurt over a discussion on speaker topology they are probably better off staying away from the internet, or maybe even life in general.

Nobody seems to be upset anyway, unless I missed that bit.

[walpurgis]

But what the door for?

I believe that's where the music pixies are put inside :).


Actually, I think it's the hatch for removing the main driver.

[narabdela]

This does seem to be "one of those" threads where folks who haven't heard the items under consideration are having great fun putting the boot in.
Not really in the spirit of AOS, imo.

I've not heard Frugelhorns but some folks whose ears I have a reasonable degree of trust in say they are very good.

Heard a pair at Scalford a few years ago and they sounded pretty good to me. That was in a largish room, nowhere near the corners


And yes, I'm not a fan of those Audionote speakers and the price is ludicrous for what they are.

That's reassuring. I always wondered if it was just me that didn't 'get' them.

[walpurgis]

A "posh" single driver might be interesting too, though.

There are some beautifully made full range drivers available from Chinese manufacturers (I have a couple of pairs).

These have been tempting me: https://de.aliexpress.com/item/WANBO-Cobalt-Magnet-Steel-Magenet-Alnico-Full-Range-HIFI-10-inch-Speaker-Driver-Superior-Quality/32810936842.html?spm=a2g0x.10010108.1000016.1.2b96 6685y93yEd&isOrigTitle=true

[Stratmangler]

This does seem to be "one of those" threads where folks who haven't heard the items under consideration are having great fun putting the boot in.
Not really in the spirit of AOS, imo.

I've not heard Frugelhorns but some folks whose ears I have a reasonable degree of trust in say they are very good.

The thing to bear in mind is that the Frugel Horn thing does not have a single iteration - if all I had heard was FH3s with Fostex FE-126 drivers I'd have quite a low opinion of them.

Mine originally had Mark Audio CHP-70 drivers in them, and the drivers weren't great with leading edge information. The tweeter helper came about because of the problem.
With the tweeter helpers in use the leading edge information came back, and as is often the case, the bass became better defined and timed better.
The speakers boogied like their very existence depended on it.

The drivers were switched out for Mark Audio Alpair 7.3, and one thing was immediately apparent.
The midband of the Alpair 7.3s is wonderful and very detailed.
The higher frequencies and leading edge information was superior to the CHP-70s too, but after a fairly short while I realised there was a frequency response falloff that made everything sound a bit too cuddly and nice.
The tweeter helpers were pressed back into action, and the problem went away again, with gains at the other end of the frequency band an added bonus.

The long and short of it is that someone who makes the comment that they've heard FH3s and didn't particularly like 'em is likely to have heard just one set of drivers, and there are quite a number of different variants that they haven't heard.
The definitive comment on performance needs to be taken with more than just a pinch of salt.

If I see FH3s with a single driver I stay away - my experience is that not all drivers are equal, some are much better that others, and the top end usually needs sorting.

[Ali Tait]

Some info here Geoff if you haven’t seen it already-

http://www.frugal-horn.com/FH3.html

[bobvfr]

Bit pointless borrowing them then [emoji23][emoji23]

Cheers Geoff. PS, I'm harassing Bob about Tannoys lol

Harass away Oliver, you will hear nothing but praise for them from me, but then I think Geoff is also an advocate for them as well.

[Bigman80]

Harass away Oliver, you will hear nothing but praise for them from me, but then I think Geoff is also an advocate for them as well.Lol, he's not budging.

[wee tee cee]

I bought electric beach frugels a couple of years ago.

They reside in my son system amplified by croft pre/power.

They sound fantastic in a near field set up-he runs super tweaters on the rear firing vertically which make a sizeable difference to the bass....go figure!

Ive not found them overly fussy placement wise.

Colin Wonfor brought a selection of his EWA amps and cables to Ali Tates place last year-i brought my frugels....boy oh boy they werent lacking in anything sonically.

[Stratmangler]

I bought electric beach frugels a couple of years ago.

They reside in my son system amplified by croft pre/power.

They sound fantastic in a near field set up-he runs super tweaters on the rear firing vertically which make a sizeable difference to the bass....go figure!

Ive not found them overly fussy placement wise.

Colin Wonfor brought a selection of his EWA amps and cables to Ali Tates place last year-i brought my frugels....boy oh boy they werent lacking in anything sonically.

Which drivers did you opt for, Tony?

[hifinutt]

I've been offered a loan of a pair of these. I hadn't picked up that they should be used in a corner either, probably due to ignorance lol.

Does the siting have a massive effect on these in your theoretical opinion, Geoff?

i used these in several positions in house and didn`t make huge difference , sounded superb wherever they were. in fact i am suffering withdrawel symptoms

[hifinutt]

But you've still got the awful colourations from the horn, you've still got no bass, and now you've got a load of x-over components in there too. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

had superb bass from the xl version with alpair drivers , no need for any supertweeters either

some pics

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4659/25792433008_7abc05a838_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FibXJQ)P1050211 (https://flic.kr/p/FibXJQ) by [/url], on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4603/38566413810_1906dac480_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1050246 (https://flic.kr/p/21KYXc9) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/], on Flickr

[Infinitely Baffled]

You can get deep enough bass from small drivers. The output will be limited, but the depth can be surprising. Anybody remember the 'Daline' design using a five inch KEF B110?

It was capable of output down to 30Hz.
Well, there's a turn-up! I have never seen anybody mention the Daline design on this forum before. I had assumed it was totally unloved. It is in fact the loudspeaker I am listening to right now. I got them last year - a bit battered and bruised, but I was thrilled to track down a pair because the idea of putting the drivers from an LS3/5A into a cabinet employing a totally different acoustic principle appealed to me. Mine are the twin driver unit (a B110 and a T27 in each cabinet) and I absolutely love the way they sound. As Geoff points out they have an astonishingly deep bass capability given that the mid/bass driver is only about 5.5ins or something. Very well-balanced and tuneful too. I have now assembled all the parts I need to convert them into the three-driver version that represents the designer's "ultimate" Daline. I have high hopes. As bought, they are a bit scruffy unfortunately, so I need to undertake some cosmetic rehabilitation. That's a new area for me, but should be interesting. I'll post some pictures if they come out anything like.
IB

[walpurgis]

Well, there's a turn-up! I have never seen anybody mention the Daline design on this forum before. I had assumed it was totally unloved.

Not unloved, just forgotten 'cos it was such a bloody long time ago. :)

[walpurgis]

Some info here Geoff if you haven’t seen it already-

http://www.frugal-horn.com/FH3.html

Not seen that before Ali.

[wee tee cee]

Chris,
I went for the copper coloured Alpair drivers.

Should be thread on her somewhere with photos-lovely looking speakers finished to a really high standard.

[Stratmangler]

Chris,
I went for the copper coloured Alpair drivers.

Should be thread on her somewhere with photos-lovely looking speakers finished to a really high standard.

Could be the Alpair 7 - is the driver around 4" across?

[hifinutt]

Chris,
I went for the copper coloured Alpair drivers.

Should be thread on her somewhere with photos-lovely looking speakers finished to a really high standard.

now i do love the look of the pearl acoustics sibelius and its made of 33mm french oak and has drivers made by mark fenlon and is not braced as the wood is very rigid. if these were not 5k then i would be very tempted . paul messenger wrote a brilliant review in hi fi critic in sept 2017 . apparently takes 12 weeks to make the sibelius .

in his review he mentions that they come with copper coloured drivers [95mm mark fenlon design] silver grey or paper . he states only 5% of the panal preferred the paper which has higher sensitivity and is more suited to valve amps , he says

so leaning towards making a frugalhorn or the similar pensil , i will also be thinking about the copper alpair driver or the pluvia

http://pearlacoustics.com/the-sibelius.php

[Macca]

Electrostatic panels have to be large to get any bass out of them. So if it was small it wouldn't cover the full frequency range.

[walpurgis]

Smaller, non full range electrostatic speakers (mids & tweeters) have been made. However, full range eletrostatic speakers need to be large in order to displace enough air to produce the volume/scale required. The tensioned film diaphragms, simply can't manage the excursion that moving coil cone types can, so need to have a greater surface area to shift as much air. Same applies to ribbon and isodynamic speakers.

[Stratmangler]

Why? Moving coil drivers don't have any bass either until you put them in a cabinet to prevent bass cancellation from front to back.

I was sat in front of some open baffle speakers yesterday, and there was no shortage of low end grunt.

[walpurgis]

Moving coil drivers don't have any bass either until you put them in a cabinet to prevent bass cancellation from front to back.

A suitable moving coil driver mounted on a baffle (panel) the same size as an electrostatic speaker will produce bass, but have a similar low end cut-off as the electrostatic speaker. Both being subject to LF cancellation below a certain point determined by the distance between the front and back of the radiating area of the transducer.

[Macca]

I was sat in front of some open baffle speakers yesterday, and there was no shortage of low end grunt.

Try playing something with really low bass (below 40hz) and see how well they manage. You can't just get rid of the cabinet and have no downsides.

[walpurgis]

I was sat in front of some open baffle speakers yesterday, and there was no shortage of low end grunt.

Some OB speakers employ equalisation to compensate for cancellation effects. This requires more power though.

[Stratmangler]

But how big was the baffle? Would there be the same low end grunt if the took the drivers off the baffle? The baffle is there to prevent low end cancellation.

They were a variation on these

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/colin/OB_08.JPG

[Stratmangler]

Some OB speakers employ equalisation to compensate for cancellation effects. This requires more power though.

These are passive, and a very benign load (and by that I mean the variant is a very benign load - the ones pictured require a fair bit more grunt) - a pair of 300B SET monoblocs was powering things, and with a downhill run and a strong following wind you're only talking about 7 watt output.

[walpurgis]

A great many years ago, there was a speaker design called the Hartley 'Boffle'. A cross between a box and a baffle!

Basically an open back enclosure with sheets of damping material between the rear of the driver and the open back of the cabinet.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2s9sr9h.png

I believe this was quite successful, but can't quite see how.

[Stratmangler]

Try playing something with really low bass (below 40hz) and see how well they manage. You can't just get rid of the cabinet and have no downsides.

What makes you think that we've not already been there and done it?
Put it this way - we weren't playing string quartets. At some point the Blade Runner CD was spinning.
The rest was mild stuff, such as Porcupine Tree's Deadwing, so no end action whatsoever ;)

[walpurgis]

Due to reflection effects the bass from OB speakers can sometimes follow a longer path in a given room and deeper bass fundamentals can be perceived.

[Macca]

What makes you think that we've not already been there and done it?
Put it this way - we weren't playing string quartets. At some point the Blade Runner CD was spinning.
The rest was mild stuff, such as Porcupine Tree's Deadwing, so no end action whatsoever ;)

And then play the same recording on a comparable box speaker? It just isn't the same and I guess that's why there are very few commercial open baffles.

[Rothchild]

It was the other end of the price spectrum that I was considering - something like the old Auratone speakers for near-field monitoring, or just checking what a recording will sound like on a telly.
A "posh" single driver might be interesting too, though.


http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=297&sid=4ac78f0890d60f9d5c46dba562225304

I have a pair in the studio and I love them, they sound 'horrible' but in a 'horribly revealing' way. No bass and a tiny (but delicious) stereo sweet spot, for untangling the mid-range in a busy recording nothing beats them.

The guy who designed them knows his stuff too: http://barefootsound.com/

[Stratmangler]

And then play the same recording on a comparable box speaker? It just isn't the same and I guess that's why there are very few commercial open baffles.

The only reason why it's difficult to find commercially made baffles is because they're so frigging big that most folks can't or won't give 'em house room.
Which means that the market for them is so small it's not worth anyone supplying it.
It has sod all to do with sound quality on any level.

[montesquieu]

I had a very similar pair of horns to Frugelhorns (rear vented, intended for corner reinvorcement,) based on Fostex 6in drivers.

There were ok but compromised (uneven, honky, no bass was the worst of it). First step was some tweeters/supertweeters coming in at 8khz or so as that's where the 'full range' (hah!) drivers started to tail off.

Then a pair of subs to do the below 60hz business as there was no bass really worth calling bass.

So what you end up is bolting together a bag of bits that aren't actually a proper speaker design, in order to address the basic deficiencies.

Fun to play with but a dead end. Conclusion: it's better just to go and get some proper speakers, designed by a proper designer, and be done with it.

[Ninanina]

Conclusion: it's better just to go and get some proper speakers, designed by a proper designer, and be done with it.

Kind of my thoughts Tom

We made up a nice pair of Voigt pipes using some Fostex drivers and while they sounded nice for the little outlay I didn't keep them very long as other 'commercial' speakers were so much better sounding

They looked a bit like these:

http://i.imgur.com/JxNfhsr.jpg (https://imgur.com/JxNfhsr)

[Stratmangler]

I'm no great fan of the Fostex wide band stuff either.
The most annoying thing for me is the 7kHz hump in the response, but the lack of bass, and lumpy response don't help.

[fatmarley]

Years ago I made some Fostex bipoles from plans over at diyaudio. They were easily the worst speaker I've ever heard (bright, shouty upper mids and no bass) but the Frugels with Mark audio drivers get a lot of good feedback, so I wouldn't judge without hearing them.

[Macca]

The only reason why it's difficult to find commercially made baffles is because they're so frigging big that most folks can't or won't give 'em house room.
Which means that the market for them is so small it's not worth anyone supplying it.
It has sod all to do with sound quality on any level.

If that were true there would be no large box speakers on the market. But there are hundreds. I agree that open baffles have some advantages, but they also have disadvantages. Like any design of speaker they are a set of compromises.

[Primalsea]

I find that sometimes the best speakers you hear are so great because they excel with the music that is being demonstrated. Play something else through them and then all the issues become obvious.

[paulf-2007]

Firstly in reply to Tom, DIY open baffles or box speakers can be an inexpensive way to try out different designs and usually find what is wrong about those designs. You then have a better idea of what does work.
I started a project with an open baffle 15" woofer and 8" wide range driver. I added a hf tractrix horn with a compression driver and then tri-amped it all. Next came a 400hz tractrix horn in place of the 8" driver.
Later a 200hz tractrix horn and BMS compression driver replaced the 400hz horn. Sound improved with each change. Next the hf horn got the chop and Raal 140/15D replaced them. The flat baffle became an open backed box for the 15" woofer and improved the mounting for the tractrix horn. Various valve amps were used and finally solid state for the bass had a better grip on the 15" driver. Crossover was DEQX.
Although the bass was the most musical and realistic I've heard it only went down to 50hz and so was compromised, much like most set ups, there are compromises of one thing or another.
My project ended up costing in excess of 5 grand including all the amplifiers and dsp. Not a cheap way to find out what works and what doesn't. But all good fun to find out that a box speaker gave me what I wanted, when all along I hadn't liked box speakers.

[Macca]

I find that sometimes the best speakers you hear are so great because they excel with the music that is being demonstrated. Play something else through them and then all the issues become obvious.

Yes that happens. I had a listen to some 2 way speakers that cost £11K. Light jazz, girl with guitar, that stuff where it is just a woman singing and someone hitting a block of wood with a stick; all came across lovely, like they were in the room. Put on something with a bit of bass and they embarrassed themselves almost immediately. Quite shocking, really.

[Bigman80]

Thought I'd better see what you're all talking about. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180317/84cfe9bba5ecef950d41f928b515e509.jpg

[walpurgis]

They'll definitely sound totally different to the Pioneers.

[Bigman80]

They'll definitely sound totally different to the Pioneers.You're not kidding, Geoff.

Bass is there, obviously in a lesser amount to the CS-77A, but there. HF is there but it feels like there's a gaping hole in the Mids.

Imaging is good. Detail is good but everything sounds very thin.

I've got some Monitor Audio GS10 to try too. I don't think it'll be long before they are in.

The thing I'm missing ingredients instantly is the size of the picture the Pioneer create. It all seem a lot smaller.

[Stratmangler]

You're not kidding, Geoff.

Bass is there, obviously in a lesser amount to the CS-77A, but there. HF is there but it feels like there's a gaping hole in the Mids.

Imaging is good. Detail is good but everything sounds very thin.

I've got some Monitor Audio GS10 to try too. I don't think it'll be long before they are in.

The thing I'm missing ingredients instantly is the size of the picture the Pioneer create. It all seem a lot smaller.

Which drive units in the FH3s?

[walpurgis]

Small drivers mate. It's very hard to get decent 'scale' with them, although it can be done, but that usually involves big cabinets, which rather defeats the object.

[Stratmangler]

I can see they're small drivers :doh:

[Stratmangler]

The reason for the question is that there are that many different drive units used in FH3s that it's impossible to get any real idea as to how things sound.
I've used Mark Audio drivers in mine - the CHP-70 initially, and now with Alpair 7.3s.
I really dislike the design with Fostex FE-126s. It's the Fostex drivers letting the side down.

[Stratmangler]

And yes, it's difficult to get proper scale with small drivers.

[walpurgis]

I can see they're small drivers :doh:

I was actually responding to Oliver's post. :)

[Macca]

You're not kidding, Geoff.

Bass is there, obviously in a lesser amount to the CS-77A, but there. HF is there but it feels like there's a gaping hole in the Mids.

Imaging is good. Detail is good but everything sounds very thin.

I've got some Monitor Audio GS10 to try too. I don't think it'll be long before they are in.

The thing I'm missing ingredients instantly is the size of the picture the Pioneer create. It all seem a lot smaller.

Because there's no real bass. You don't notice it until it is gone. Same with a well-tuned subwoofer. You don't hear it doing anything. But when you take it out it's 'Oh no! What's happened there?'

[Bigman80]

Which drive units in the FH3s?Gawd knows. I didn't ask. I can find out

[Bigman80]

Because there's no real bass. You don't notice it until it is gone. Same with a well-tuned subwoofer. You don't hear it doing anything. But when you take it out it's 'Oh no! What's happened there?'You're right suspect.

Got these in and the floor is shaking. Not even how it's possible [emoji50] https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180317/f0e454241936b7212a4f13e3dfd233c0.jpg

[walpurgis]

Wot is dey man?

[Macca]

Meh! Suspect the Pioneers will be back in shortly. Big drivers in big cabs, there really is no substitute. They knew that back in '71.

[Bigman80]

Wot is dey man?They be Monitor Audio GS10.

Rather excellent little speaker. Sound WAY bigger than they have any right to.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180317/0c863e9525fbb0e397329d9feab8c1f5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180317/c8bf4a09f7059053b7680b032a600e8b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180317/97a255464a5e55cfa369f0f2b4109af9.jpg

[Bigman80]

Meh! Suspect the Pioneers will be back in shortly. Big drivers in big cabs, there really is no substitute. They knew that back in '71.You're right Macca. I've been spoilt by the Pioneers. Nothing has compared to them in my system.

Undisputed champs here.

[Macca]

You're right Macca. I've been spoilt by the Pioneers. Nothing has compared to them in my system.

Undisputed champs here.

You might like these JM Labs I've got here at the moment. Would work well in your room I think. One of the few moderns speakers I've heard that doesn't let itself down big time in some way or another.

[Bigman80]

You might like these JM Labs I've got here at the moment. Would work well in your room I think. One of the few moderns speakers I've heard that doesn't let itself down big time in some way or another.What model are they or is that the model lol, I'm not sure why I've started auditioning speakers [emoji849]

Suppose it's just good to see what other people are listening to.

[Macca]

, I'm not sure why I've started auditioning speakers

.

These things just happen don't they?

They are JM Labs Electra 926

[Bigman80]

These things just happen don't they?

They are JM Labs Electra 926I'll Google them.

[Stratmangler]

I was actually responding to Oliver's post. :)

Forum posting overlap.
I'm sure that it adds fuel to the flames .....

[Stratmangler]

A glance at Oliver's listen space tells you that it's not a great space to listen to FH3s.
The doorway creates lots of issues for the rearward horn output, and the lack of solid wall behind just adds to the problems.
I'm not surprised that he's not particularly taken with them on first impression. I'd still like to know what the drive units are.

[Bigman80]

A glance at Oliver's listen space tells you that it's not a great space to listen to FH3s.
The doorway creates lots of issues for the rearward horn output, and the lack of solid wall behind just adds to the problems.
I'm not surprised that he's not particularly taken with them on first impression. I'd still like to know what the drive units are.You're right. Rear ported speakers are a general no no here. The sealed cab Pioneers are back in and sounding glorious. Think I'll spend my spare change on some nice stands for them.

[Stratmangler]

You're right. Rear ported speakers are a general no no here. The sealed cab Pioneers are back in and sounding glorious. Think I'll spend my spare change on some nice stands for them.

Good call :cool:

[hifinutt]

I had a very similar pair of horns to Frugelhorns (rear vented, intended for corner reinvorcement,) based on Fostex 6in drivers.

There were ok but compromised (uneven, honky, no bass was the worst of it). First step was some tweeters/supertweeters coming in at 8khz or so as that's where the 'full range' (hah!) drivers started to tail off.

Then a pair of subs to do the below 60hz business as there was no bass really worth calling bass.

So what you end up is bolting together a bag of bits that aren't actually a proper speaker design, in order to address the basic deficiencies.

Fun to play with but a dead end. Conclusion: it's better just to go and get some proper speakers, designed by a proper designer, and be done with it.

the frugalhorn xl here for several months had very good bass , enough to feel satisfied after playing organ music . the top end was extremely revealing . they were just slightly toppy on a few tracks but overall they were very good indeed . i would have them back in a flash if i could

[hifinutt]

these had the alpair 10p , i might try the pensil sometime possibly

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4603/38566413810_18112e278e_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21KYXc9)P1050246 (https://flic.kr/p/21KYXc9) by , on Flickr