View Full Version : How many folk now use streaming and have sold all their other audio equipment?
Mikeandvan
13-03-2018, 00:06
Has streaming made everything else redundant? Or do you keep the 'hardware' just in case the internet breaks one day?
Quite a few. Ive still got everything for now. Still like solid formats but at a push could live with my Deezer happily
Mikeandvan
13-03-2018, 00:37
Strangely though the old hardware still gets sold on...........Somebody goes streaming, someone else decides they want to go to all the bother of putting a record on! And people still buy cdps, that is one I can't figure out. I understand why they keep them, but people buying new ones? Unless they're upgrading. Most strangely of all perhaps some folk still pay silly money for a fabled Naim Nat 101 tuner, when all you can get is crappy Steve wright in the afternoon, etc! Give me radio 6 any day of the week!
rigger67
13-03-2018, 03:27
when all you can get is crappy Steve wright in the afternoon, etc! Give me radio 6 any day of the week!
That will definitely be classical fans.
BBC Radio 3 and Classic FM are both great stations whether you're into it or not.
Strangely though the old hardware still gets sold on...........Somebody goes streaming, someone else decides they want to go to all the bother of putting a record on! And people still buy cdps, that is one I can't figure out. I understand why they keep them, but people buying new ones? Unless they're upgrading. Most strangely of all perhaps some folk still pay silly money for a fabled Naim Nat 101 tuner, when all you can get is crappy Steve wright in the afternoon, etc! Give me radio 6 any day of the week!
The reason I go to all the bother of putting a record on is because it sounds so much better than streaming. I could say what I think of steaming and why people do it but it would be too rude to post here!
jandl100
13-03-2018, 06:54
Has streaming made everything else redundant? Or do you keep the 'hardware' just in case the internet breaks one day?
Yep, streaming has pretty much taken over my musical listening.
Vinyl has been totally expunged from my life, and good riddance. Should have had the sense to get rid of it years before.
I have kept about 2000 CDs and the ability to play them on a 'just in case' basis. But they almost never get used. - Will doubtless come in handy when VladP decides it's time to take the internet down.
I don't bother with internet radio, I did try but found it mostly tedious. I'd rather make my own choices and discoveries and there is no better way than streaming to do that.
I am an occasional "film" watcher, and use DVDs for that.
Audio Al
13-03-2018, 07:03
NO NEVER , :nono::nono::nono:
Primalsea
13-03-2018, 07:22
I rip all of my CDs to the NAS drive, I don’t have a CD player anymore. The Raspberry Pi3 into my USB audio interface with balanced outputs is almost a perfect setup for me. I still have my 401 though, it just sounds so good.
I rip all of my CDs to the NAS drive, I don’t have a CD player anymore. The Raspberry Pi3 into my USB audio interface with balanced outputs is almost a perfect setup for me. I still have my 401 though, it just sounds so good.
Sweet.:)
Ali Tait
13-03-2018, 08:47
Ripped all my cd’s years ago, still use both vinyl and R to R, but the majority of my listening is via Tidal these days.
Stratmangler
13-03-2018, 10:40
Has streaming made everything else redundant? Or do you keep the 'hardware' just in case the internet breaks one day?
What's the internet breaking got to do with it?
I accept that to get off site server access you have to have internet, but my local server still works even if the internet is broken, so I can stream FLACs from my NAS - saves all that tiresome looking for a CD that you've put away safely somewhere (so safe that you can't find the bloody thing).
I haven't had a CD player in my setup for at least a decade.
I still have a turntable and spin the black stuff, but the streaming setup sees the most action - it's bound to, coz it sounds great, and it's a doddle to drive, and the convenience aspect is obvious.
My son was quite happy using it when he was 7 years old, although at the time he was more interested in playing games on his Wii.
Times change - son is now 17 years old, and he uses the Squeezebox/server all the time now, and he really appreciates having the access to a large and eclectic library of lossless music files.
I still buy CDs, rip 'em to the server, and chuck 'em in the pile afterwards.
mightymonoped
13-03-2018, 10:56
Primary listening for me is streaming from my NAS but I have kept the CDP in case I want to play with using it as a transport to an alternative DAC at some point (am using RPi with ALLO BOSS at the moment). Turntable gets occasional use but is sidelined at the moment, as all new music is sourced digitally.
I use Spotify Premium as a scouting and discovery tool mainly, I scan through it's weekly discovery suggestions (which get better the more it's used), and save any items which I consider worth investigating further. If I find something that sticks, I then try to source a lossless version for the NAS. This can take many forms but usually CD (new or used) and Bandcamp tend to be the most cost effective.
I do quite enjoy having the choice of formats available for now and then, and keeping the CDs comes in handy when my kids come round to raid my collection every now and then :)
jandl100
13-03-2018, 11:12
What's the internet breaking got to do with it?
I accept that to get off site server access you have to have internet, but my local server still works even if the internet is broken, so I can stream FLACs from my NAS - saves all that tiresome looking for a CD that you've put away safely somewhere (so safe that you can't find the bloody thing).
It's interesting how we all have our own points of view.
I never could see the point of ripping CDs, most of them are available from the online music streaming services anyway. I have other priorities for my time than ripping thousands of discs. And all of my CDs are filed alphabetically so I can go straight to them should the need arise.
Ah well, vive la difference! as they say.
For me, streaming is all about instant internet access to an inconceivably large collection of music. As such, we live in a Golden Age of music access, imo.
Bigman80
13-03-2018, 11:15
I was told that ripping a CD to a SSHD would produce better results than playing a CD.
Not tried it but I may do soon !
jandl100
13-03-2018, 11:23
Perhaps.
But I don't play CDs anyway and I am very happy with the sq from the streaming services.
Stratmangler
13-03-2018, 12:11
I was just taken with the idea of playing my CD albums from the comfort of the sofa, and losing the need to keep proper control of a large physical library of material.
In 2009 I reaped the rewards of my earlier endeavours, because I had my neck broken in a car accident, and ultimately required an operation to fit a metal plate to stabilise the fracture to allow it to heal properly.
I spent a great deal of time kept very immobile by a Philadelphia collar, so moving around was awkward and difficult to say the least.
If I hadn't already ripped my CDs for streaming purposes I would not have had the easy capability of playing music.
jandl100
13-03-2018, 13:06
Ah, I can see that. I guess the music streaming services were way off their current level of excellence 8 or 9 years ago.
I recall being distinctly unimpressed with them just 5 or so years ago when I looked into it. They've come a long way since then.
Audio Al
13-03-2018, 13:27
I still have my 401 though, it just sounds so good.
Love it :D
Bourneendboy
13-03-2018, 13:53
I've sold my Spacedeck/Nait 2 and Kans, 2000 LPs, 500 12" and around 600 7" singles and replaced with a headphone streaming system.
I've kept a 1000 odd records that are either valuable or have a sentimental value to me.
Mikeandvan
13-03-2018, 13:56
System dependent of course, is there a consensus on which format provides the best sound quality? I always thought it was a vinyl or cdp set up. Granted many people just prefer the sound of vinyl, but I was comparing vinyl and streaming and I sometimes cannot tell the difference, depends on the music, and this is before I begin to refine my streaming set up, as I've only just bought a streamer.
If you can't tell he difference between vinyl or streaming then maybe it's time to retire your vinyl and just steam? Streaming can be free and give you almost every album you could wish for.
Mikeandvan
13-03-2018, 14:22
If you can't tell he difference between vinyl or streaming then maybe it's time to retire your vinyl and just steam? Streaming can be free and give you almost every album you could wish for.
I said sometimes, I've only had my streamer a few days! I asked was there a consensus opinion as may'be my vinyl set up isn't fully optimised, let alone my streaming set up. Been doing a lot of box swapping lately, and only just getting around to properly setting everything up. Anyway currently loving the streaming thing as like you said every LP at the your fingertips.
jandl100
13-03-2018, 14:26
You want a consensus on a hifi forum? :scratch:
:lolsign:
Why would you get rid of anything if you are serious about music and your collection (unless you don't want to play records anymore), it's an addition not a replacement IMO.
And what do you actually mean by 'streaming' as many people don't actually know what it means? ;)
Mikeandvan
13-03-2018, 14:46
Why would you get rid of anything if you are serious about music and your collection (unless you don't want to play records anymore), it's an addition not a replacement IMO.
And what do you actually mean by 'streaming' as many people don't actually know what it means? ;)
Plenty of people are getting rid of equipment because of streaming, whether its on saved files, or live from streaming sites. Even those 'serious' about music and their collections, which can now be stored digitally, no need to hold onto physical objects anymore!
walpurgis
13-03-2018, 14:54
Plenty of people are getting rid of equipment because of streaming
Ah good. That will mean more 'proper' Hi-Fi gear available for the rest of us! ;)
Ah good. That will mean more 'proper' Hi-Fi gear available for the rest of us! ;)
:lol:
Plenty of people are getting rid of equipment because of streaming
That's possible of course, but are they hard core music fans or just people who consider music a hobby?
I don't have a CD player and haven't had for years, but I still have all my CDs and records, just bought a turntable too. Still not quite sure what your point is though, but hey ho - I'm off to play some toons ;)
Oooo, post number 7,000 :cool:
Audio Al
13-03-2018, 17:08
Ah good. That will mean more 'proper' Hi-Fi gear available for the rest of us! ;)
+1 :)
Mikeandvan
13-03-2018, 17:29
That's possible of course, but are they hard core music fans or just people who consider music a hobby?
I don't have a CD player and haven't had for years, but I still have all my CDs and records, just bought a turntable too. Still not quite sure what your point is though, but hey ho - I'm off to play some toons ;)
Oooo, post number 7,000 :cool:
Many audiophiles are into streaming. It takes up a large percentage of many of their listening. I'm completely new to it. Was more asking a question than making a point. And that question is about consensus on hifi quality across all the major formats. I've had my streamer a few days and I'm listening to all sorts, I want the best I can get out of it.
I was into using online services although I used to actually download my collection rather than stream, I was using Microsoft's Groove service, I did have to stream if I was playing the music on my Hi-Fi as this was connected to my Xbox and this doesn't store music locally.
For whatever reason MS stopped this service (Probably because it wasn't making money) so they recommended going over to Spotify.
Spotify have never made a profit.
No thanks, I ripped all my old CD's and now have them as local files and if I want to "Buy" new music I will buy the CD and rip it.
I have Amazon Prime so I can stream and did so for hours on Xmas day playing a lot of Xmas music I wouldn't dream of buying.
My main entertainment system is my Xbox One X, but I still have a CD player along with all my CD's in boxes in the loft, once bitten etc.......
Not got rid of anything (never had a dedicated CD player in my life though).
Use streaming plus listen to vinyl and tapes.
All formats have pros and cons.
Sherwood
13-03-2018, 20:02
The CD player has gone because it did not sound as good as my ripped files.
I still have turntable and very large vinyl collection because I probably wouldn't get much for them. I have sold a few vinyl discs but encountered too many time wasters wanting something for nothing.
One buyer claimed a mint vinyl album had a visible scratch across one face of the disc! I couldn't be arsed to argue so refunded money and have not sold another disc since. :steam:
Geoff
Many audiophiles are into streaming.
Ah, then I'm not the right person to give an opinion as I don't consider myself to be an audiophile - interesting topic though.
I think if you want the 'best out of music' you need access to a variety of playback sources, not just streaming ;)
Sherwood
13-03-2018, 21:02
Ah, then I'm not the right person to give an opinion as I don't consider myself to be an audiophile - interesting topic though.
I think if you want the 'best out of music' you need access to a variety of playback sources, not just streaming ;)
I don't understand this. Surely it's about accessing the music you want to listen to at a level of quality that matches your expectations. Although I listen to new music or music I am unfamiliar with on Spotify and Deezer, I still mainly listen to my own ripped cds because of the convenience and the quality!
montesquieu
13-03-2018, 21:09
Predominantly use Spotify as a means to find/identify new music to buy (sometimes on vinyl, other times on CD) and to avoid buying stuff I know I won't play.
It's worked pretty well for me so far.
Primalsea
13-03-2018, 21:32
There are loads of really good artists out there who are not signed to a label and do not have resources to release on vinyl or CD, but can use websites like Bandcamp and Soundcloud, etc. to sell downloads. I’m listening to a guy called Niall Thomas on Bandcamp right now. I don’t think there is any need to think of streaming as a replacement to anything, just another way to a access music.
I don't understand this.
That's because you missed my point, as a lot of music isn't available in just one format, which is why I said 'best out of music' - you're thinking like an audiophile, not a pure music lover. Best out of music isn't just about sound quality or convenience, not to me it isn't ;)
Likewise I don't understand this "at a level of quality that matches your expectations" - I tend to not have high expectations for some music, just being able to hear/experience it is enough, especially if it's rare and not widely available.
Boyse6748
14-03-2018, 12:30
That's because you missed my point, as a lot of music isn't available in just one format, which is why I said 'best out of music' - you're thinking like an audiophile, not a pure music lover. Best out of music isn't just about sound quality or convenience, not to me it isn't ;)
Likewise I don't understand this "at a level of quality that matches your expectations" - I tend to not have high expectations for some music, just being able to hear/experience it is enough, especially if it's rare and not widely available.
Heavily into Roon now for the past six months or so.... just knocked out by the shear choice and quality. Mind you, the TT / R2R / SACD / Tuner is going nowhere. That includes the record and CD collection.
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Mind you, the TT / R2R / SACD / Tuner is going nowhere. That includes the record and CD collection.
:thumbsup:
I know these streaming companies claim 40 million songs, or whatever their claim is, but do they really have everything? Aren’t there some old rare records in your 40 plus year collection that are not found on streaming sites? I’ve got some rare albums I’d be shocked to see on a streaming site, but maybe they could surprise me?
And sound quality is a strange thing. My CD player plays clearer, and cleaner, more detail, more dynamics! Anyone hearing the same 20 seconds of a song on both would say the CD player blows the vinyl away! But somehow the vinyl playback still wins in the magic department. It has a quality I find hard to explain, the rhythm draws me in, more of the, “foot tapping magic”, from vinyl, I have yet to hear any digital source to match it. And my vinyl playback system is nice but far from top drawer. Perhaps I just haven’t heard the right streaming setup yet?
Russell
jandl100
15-03-2018, 08:54
I know these streaming companies claim 40 million songs, or whatever their claim is, but do they really have everything? Aren’t there some old rare records in your 40 plus year collection that are not found on streaming sites? I’ve got some rare albums I’d be shocked to see on a streaming site, but maybe they could surprise me?
Sure, not everything is available for streaming. Although tbh the sheer quantity is pretty darn amazing!
And that's the point for me - there are several orders of magnitude more albums available than I could ever fit on my shelves physically. It's just fantastic to explore what is available and is new to me. And new recordings appear just as soon as they appear on physical media sales sites.
I was a luddite physical media bod until Justin User211 finally managed to nag me into trying streaming. It only took him two years, I have to admire his perserverence!
My gawd - he changed my musical life. Total convert here.
And sound quality is a strange thing. My CD player plays clearer, and cleaner, more detail, more dynamics! Anyone hearing the same 20 seconds of a song on both would say the CD player blows the vinyl away! But somehow the vinyl playback still wins in the magic department. It has a quality I find hard to explain, the rhythm draws me in, more of the, “foot tapping magic”, from vinyl, I have yet to hear any digital source to match it. And my vinyl playback system is nice but far from top drawer.
And to my ears the sq is just fine.
In fact, I did numerous back to back comparisons (as you'd imagine most folks here doing) and I preferred streaming sq to my carefully honed CD playback system. Not what I expected at all!
As for vinyl - well, here I get contentious. It's just a subjective-preferred colouration medium as far as I am concerned.
The differences in sq between well thought of turntables and cartridges especially are just enormous. I mean HUGE differences in presentation. They really can't all be right. ;) You just choose the ones that make the prettiest and/or most impressive noises to your own ears.
Different to digital and streaming? Of course - that's cos vinyl is just pretty/impressive, not accurate.
(Dons protective armour and mans the barricades. :lol:)
There is a flip side to the statement "not everything is available for streaming" in that there is a lot of OOP music available, or music that is so hard to come by it sells for hundreds of pounds on places like Amazon Marketplace, or eBay that you can access from streaming services. It's a double edged sword.
I was a luddite physical media bod until Justin User211 finally managed to nag me into trying streaming. It only took him two years, I have to admire his perserverence!
My gawd - he changed my musical life. Total convert here.
My story is an interesting one (been into FBA since 2011 and sold my CDP then) in that I was looking to upgrade my CDP and stumbled upon how good file based audio can sound by chance. I'm lucky that I used to work in IT, so I'm comfortable around computers and can build my own - I've tried/heard all sorts, laptops, custom servers, bespoke units you buy off the shelf and stripped everything unnecessary out of a Windows O/S and edited the registry. But in all honesty you don't need to go that far, at the moment I'm using a laptop with a tweaked Windows O/S, JRiver and Spotify.
As someone who considers themselves a music fan first, with a passing interest in being an audiophile, file based audio and streaming is the best thing to ever happen and as Jerry says, it has changed my musical life. Not just for convenience (I have over 4,000 CDs - all ripped to FLAC), but superior sound quality at a very reasonable price.
Here's a thought, I went to the Bristol Hi-Fi show recently (and a high-end Bowers & Wilkins/CHORD demo last night). Hardly any demonstrations involved a CD player, it was dominated by file based audio and vinyl playback - I can count on one hand the number playing CDs, it was all Apple laptops/Mac Minis (some Windows PC's) Roon based systems, Auralic file servers/streamers or some other in house music server. Roon/TIDAL was the software of choice for pretty much all, if they weren't using something bespoke to the player. I saw many systems costing upwards of £50K running from a Macbook. Yesterday's demo had a £60K B&W/CHORD system fed from a £2,000 Innous music server. That to me speaks volumes about how highly regarded file based audio is now - you can get so much for your money, in both value and sound quality from file based audio.
I still buy CDs, but don't have a CDP, they get ripped to FLAC immediately. The head of Polydor music claims that 90% of CDs sold these days don't even get played, they are ripped to some type of music file immediately. I have just bought a turntable, but that's just for fun - my serious music listening comes from a music server or the internet ;)
My equipment hasn't really changed that much in relation to sources, I sold my CDP but bought a DAC and have a music server and a turntable. So I've actually got more gear!
Haselsh1
15-03-2018, 09:33
No and no real reason to.
jandl100
15-03-2018, 09:34
There is a flip side to the statement "not everything is available for streaming" in that there is a lot of OOP music available, or music that is so hard to come by it sells for hundreds of pounds on places like Amazon Marketplace
Yes, that's a good point.
Several albums I had been chasing for years and they only came along at prices I wasn't at all comfortable with.
Signed up to TIDAL - and there they were. :stalks: Just available at the click of a mouse as part of my sub. :yay:
Boyse6748
15-03-2018, 13:21
Yes, that's a good point.
Several albums I had been chasing for years and they only came along at prices I wasn't at all comfortable with.
Signed up to TIDAL - and there they were. :stalks: Just available at the click of a mouse as part of my sub. :yay:
It really is a treat to read so many positive responses, especially about unaffordable vinyl and the recording being available via streaming.
As I’ve said before, a Roon / Tidal advocate and possibly listened to more music than ever would have been possible, resulting in me now purchasing selective other media based on a listen first.
My other kit ( mainly vinyl) will never by set aside.... this is just a superb way of finding and listening to music and should be considered as a real bonus.
Yes, the better the DAC and ancillaries, the better the sound but isn’t that the same for all components?
And...... things can only get better in due course!!!
For me.......Happy days!!
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Mikeandvan
15-03-2018, 23:17
Heavily into Roon now for the past six months or so.... just knocked out by the shear choice and quality. Mind you, the TT / R2R / SACD / Tuner is going nowhere. That includes the record and CD collection.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
What exactly does Roon do?
Mikeandvan
15-03-2018, 23:22
Sure, not everything is available for streaming. Although tbh the sheer quantity is pretty darn amazing!
And that's the point for me - there are several orders of magnitude more albums available than I could ever fit on my shelves physically. It's just fantastic to explore what is available and is new to me. And new recordings appear just as soon as they appear on physical media sales sites.
I was a luddite physical media bod until Justin User211 finally managed to nag me into trying streaming. It only took him two years, I have to admire his perserverence!
My gawd - he changed my musical life. Total convert here.
And to my ears the sq is just fine.
In fact, I did numerous back to back comparisons (as you'd imagine most folks here doing) and I preferred streaming sq to my carefully honed CD playback system. Not what I expected at all!
As for vinyl - well, here I get contentious. It's just a subjective-preferred colouration medium as far as I am concerned.
The differences in sq between well thought of turntables and cartridges especially are just enormous. I mean HUGE differences in presentation. They really can't all be right. ;) You just choose the ones that make the prettiest and/or most impressive noises to your own ears.
Different to digital and streaming? Of course - that's cos vinyl is just pretty/impressive, not accurate.
(Dons protective armour and mans the barricades. :lol:)
I am coming more and more to this conclusion. £1000 for a cartridge that lasts 1-2000 hours, bonkers. Not that I've got my streaming system sorted yet, not by a long shot.
Boyse6748
16-03-2018, 07:10
What exactly does Roon do?
Roon is a software interface that integrates with Tidal / Downloaded or NAS stored files. It also acts as a search engine to find music files you wish to store within your library. The interface is very slick and probably the best currently available
Additionally, Roon interfaces with your DAC to produce the best possible sound available.
A very brief summary.... I would suggest you look on the Roon website for a more detailed information.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sherwood
16-03-2018, 09:09
What exactly does Roon do?
Gives your bank manager sleepless nights! :wowzer:
I've heard dozens (perhaps hundreds) of streaming systems and, in terms of pure sound quality, nothing has vaguely tempted me to dump my physical media and embrace it. In fact, I don't even feel tempted to introduce it into my main system. Bear in mind the only thing I would actually need to purchase is a DAC - I already have a home network (two in fact), a 'high end' laptop (I even have a spare I could dedicate just for the job) etc. -I know how to do it - could easily build a Raspberry Pi for example, it's just that the novelty doesn't appeal and the sound quality doesn't persuade me.
I've heard dozens (perhaps hundreds) of streaming systems and, in terms of pure sound quality, nothing has vaguely tempted me to dump my physical media and embrace it. In fact, I don't even feel tempted to introduce it into my main system. Bear in mind the only thing I would actually need to purchase is a DAC - I already have a home network (two in fact), a 'high end' laptop (I even have a spare I could dedicate just for the job) etc. -I know how to do it - could easily build a Raspberry Pi for example, it's just that the novelty doesn't appeal and the sound quality doesn't persuade me.
I thought the question was "How many folk now use streaming . . . " ?
I think by now we all know you don't like it and it's clear you never will as you don't want to, that horse is thoroughly beaten to death ;)
Sherwood
16-03-2018, 10:58
I thought the question was "How many folk now use streaming . . . " ?
I think by now we all know you don't like it and it's clear you never will as you don't want to, that horse is thoroughly beaten to death ;)
+1.
I think your tag line is enough to convince us that streaming is not for you.
Geoff
Mikeandvan
16-03-2018, 11:24
Roon is a software interface that integrates with Tidal / Downloaded or NAS stored files. It also acts as a search engine to find music files you wish to store within your library. The interface is very slick and probably the best currently available
Additionally, Roon interfaces with your DAC to produce the best possible sound available.
A very brief summary.... I would suggest you look on the Roon website for a more detailed information.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Emmmmm, how much does it improve the sound?
Emmmmm, how much does it improve the sound?
Over what Mike? That's too much of an open ended a question, I would do some research and maybe even try it out for free if you are interested? It's considered the cutting edge of streaming (with TIDAL) and what one could use as a home file server. It's subjective whether it sounds better than say JRiver, but it's certainly more user friendly and the wealth of information about the music itself, artists, who engineered what or played on what, is second to none. More comprehensive than liner notes, but you do have to pay for that in depth information. Just depends on how deep you want to go and how seriously you take your music knowledge.
Take a look at what a NUC (https://www.howtogeek.com/231978/htg-explains-what-is-a-nuc-pc-and-should-you-get-one/) with ROCK on it does, then you will have a deeper understanding. YouTube is your friend.
https://roonlabs.com/
https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Optimized_Core_Kit
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=roon
If you are interested you will have do some leg work yourself, as there's rather a lot to explain, especially if its all new to you ;)
Mikeandvan
16-03-2018, 12:13
Over what Mike? That's too much of an open ended a question, I would do some research and maybe even try it out for free if you are interested? It's considered the cutting edge of streaming (with TIDAL) and what one could use as a home file server. It's subjective whether it sounds better than say JRiver, but it's certainly more user friendly and the wealth of information about the music itself, artists, who engineered what or played on what, is second to none. More comprehensive than liner notes, but you do have to pay for that in depth information. Just depends on how deep you want to go and how seriously you take your music knowledge.
Take a look at what a NUC (https://www.howtogeek.com/231978/htg-explains-what-is-a-nuc-pc-and-should-you-get-one/) with ROCK on it does, then you will have a deeper understanding. YouTube is your friend.
https://roonlabs.com/
https://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Optimized_Core_Kit
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=roon
If you are interested you will have do some leg work yourself, as there's rather a lot to explain, especially if its all new to you ;)
Thanks Tim, I will try it, admit it can be difficult choosing what to play with streaming, there's almost too much choice.
Stratmangler
16-03-2018, 14:12
Emmmmm, how much does it improve the sound?
Roon?
None much improvement.
Roon's USP is the artist data it can access. Does Tidal, but no Spotify integration.
Roon can also control a wide range of endpoint devices, more than other systems can.
It's probably one of the nicest to use from a visual perspective.
It is expensive, and it does require a computer with a bit of processing grunt behind it too, to run the core engine.
Sherwood
16-03-2018, 14:52
Thanks Tim, I will try it, admit it can be difficult choosing what to play with streaming, there's almost too much choice.
When you have nothing specific in mind, try playing by genre or play one of the curated playlists as a way of discovering new music.
Geoff
Sherwood
16-03-2018, 14:54
Roon?
None much improvement.
Roon's USP is the artist data it can access. Does Tidal, but no Spotify integration.
Roon can also control a wide range of endpoint devices, more than other systems can.
It's probably one of the nicest to use from a visual perspective.
It is expensive, and it does require a computer with a bit of processing grunt behind it too, to run the core engine.
Roon is slick and the user interface is good. However, it is expensive and demanding of equipment. I can't see that it offers better sound quality than other streaming software.
Geoff
Minstrel SE
16-03-2018, 15:51
Yes but how much space do you want to save for the sake of keeping a few bits and bobs about.
I can see the way its going but Im not interested in going all streaming. I might dabble with streaming but not at the cost of getting rid of anything else. I do things very gradually and make no rash decisions.
For the people that dont have cd players...whats up with you? :) The wealth of music on vinyl and cd deserves dedicated players. I might pick up some world music on vinyl and its the most amazing experience Ive heard all month regardless of ultimate sound quality. The point is we have spent what we can afford on the other equipment so wheres the harm in having it ready
There are no medals to be won for not having it. You save some space and have less dusting to do...so what :)
I ask myself are you really music lovers if you want to sterilise and clean everything down to a streaming unit
Stratmangler
16-03-2018, 16:24
For the people that dont have cd players...whats up with you?
Nothing at all!
Why can't you get your head around ripping CDs to a server, and accessing it over a network?
CDs are still the least expensive way of obtaining lossless music files, and as a result I buy a fair few CDs for pennies each.
Buy 'em, rip 'em, sling 'em in a box.
When box is full shove it under the bed.
I never have to go searching for a CD, because it's all there on the server, and consequently under my fingertips.
I have more than enough clutter with my LP collection.
Why would I want to make more with my CDs too?
ive got most of mine ripped although they are still all out as i like playing cds too. best of both worlds.. got several copies on hdd in case of a failure. get a lot of cds off amazon sellers for a couple of quid
narabdela
16-03-2018, 16:28
I ask myself are you really music lovers if you want to sterilise and clean everything down to a streaming unit
There's a difference between music lovers and equipment lovers.:nono:
Sherwood
16-03-2018, 19:36
Nothing at all!
Why can't you get your head around ripping CDs to a server, and accessing it over a network?
CDs are still the least expensive way of obtaining lossless music files, and as a result I buy a fair few CDs for pennies each.
Buy 'em, rip 'em, sling 'em in a box.
When box is full shove it under the bed.
I never have to go searching for a CD, because it's all there on the server, and consequently under my fingertips.
I have more than enough clutter with my LP collection.
Why would I want to make more with my CDs too?
I do the same: rip 'em, store 'em. However, if I put them under the bed, I would need a ladder and a crash helmet for my sleepies!
Geoff
Pieoftheday
16-03-2018, 20:04
Have everything ripped, can't fault the sound and convenience, but I do miss using cds, I'd go back given the chance. Streaming holds no interest.
Sherwood
16-03-2018, 20:06
Have everything ripped, can't fault the sound and convenience, but I do miss using cds, I'd go back given the chance. Streaming holds no interest.
If you genuinely feel that way, then why not go back to physical media?
Geoff
Pieoftheday
16-03-2018, 20:13
If you genuinely feel that way, then why not go back to physical media?
Geoff
2 bed terrace little space, I only went this route for convenience and space saving,not really my choice!! Still I get to keep my HiFi and music and my cds for another day☺
Interesting discussion to me because viewpoints cross my own.
I do not have a lot of music, but what I have is to me of profound artistic (and philosophical) value.
I like to keep it myself and not be prone to the vagaries of it being on a server, but streaming appeals because it allows one to sample a very wide catalogue of music.
I do not like the idea of everything being on a HD because of the work doing it, to be repeated when the drive fails, and similarly for a computer.
But it is apparent that I will have to when time allows, do a hell of a lot of research before committing to a streaming service.
commitment wise its only on a monthly basis, so no probs if you dont like it, you can cancel easily. Quality wise I prefer deezer hifi over tidal but there is not a lot in it. for convenience, spotify is hard to beat and the quality is surprisingly good.
... as for ripping your cds to hd, best you save the contents to another one for emergencies. 2 if you can afford it. you can update them every month or 2 as time permits. That way if anything goes phutt, the most you lose is a handful of rips at worst.
There's a difference between music lovers and equipment lovers.:nono:
No, no, no this can't be right - to be a 'real' music lover, you must have lots and lots of gear, surely?
Stratmangler
17-03-2018, 00:30
No, no, no this can't be right - to be a 'real' music lover, you must have lot's and lot's of gear, surely?
Apostrophes Timothy, apostrophes!
I sit with you and Hugh, at the end of the pew, getting looked at with suspicion by the others.
It's all about freeing the music - hardware is a necessary evil, not the raison d'être.
I prefer to listen to the music, not fiddle with the machinery by which it's conveyed.
Minstrel SE
17-03-2018, 00:57
Nothing at all!
Why can't you get your head around ripping CDs to a server, and accessing it over a network?
CDs are still the least expensive way of obtaining lossless music files, and as a result I buy a fair few CDs for pennies each.
Buy 'em, rip 'em, sling 'em in a box.
When box is full shove it under the bed.
I never have to go searching for a CD, because it's all there on the server, and consequently under my fingertips.
I have more than enough clutter with my LP collection.
Why would I want to make more with my CDs too?
I have ripped numerous albums to computer but I generally keep the cds shelved as I like owning the cd . I have started ripping and dumping a few marked cds I was picking up at charity shops. My collection is pretty much peaking at around 500 cds
I have an inventory and everything is in alphabetical order so Its not hard walking to a tall shelving unit and picking a cd out
I do have I tunes sessions with my stored music and I appreciate how easy it is to build a playlist as I go. There is still something that seems empty about that experience though
How are you going to get them all under the bed and the minute they go in boxes the decline tends to start as they get bunged in lofts and cold spare rooms. If you are sticking them in boxes you might as well sell them.
I like having the physical media to hand. I dont like the idea of everything being on a HD and its all heading towards music libraries with a monthly fee for unlimited downloads. That makes sense but I still like my collection and I cant see myself boxing it up anytime in the near future
Couple of points, wait till you have well over 4,000 CDs and around 350 LPs, the real estate they take up is significant and to be honest I would rather have some nice art on the walls, than a load of ugly racks.
I store my CDs in IKEA boxes which are just the right size, in plastic sleeves to save even more space. The jewel case gets recycled, I do however keep ones which have been signed by the artist, got a fair few of those.
If you sold them you would need to delete the file as it would be illegal to have a ripped copy without the original.
I don't need 'stuff' to appreciate music, I know some do which I personally don't get, just as those that do like to collect things don't get why it's not important to me - each to their own ;)
Stratmangler
17-03-2018, 01:13
I like having the physical media to hand
I don't have a problem with that.
Fill yer boots.
When your library gets above a certain size, its size becomes a hindrance in itself to using it.
jandl100
17-03-2018, 06:09
I like stuff, and I love music.
You need stuff to play the music.
But I also like the stuff (hifi gear) for its own sake. It's kind of separate, but linked. Separate interests that support each other.
Music-wise, I'd be happy to go entirely virtual with no physical media at all, and that's what I do now. Not even hard drive storage.
I have kept my physical media (CDs and the ability to play them) only as an insurance covering having my music access beyond my control.
Some folks need the physical side of it, though.
They want to have it in their hands, feel it and fiddle with it. I say 'watch out for going blind'. :D
Different strokes for different folks.
If technology had developed to the point at which we needed no physical equipment, and in a room of guests could just 'think' of a track and will it to replay perfectly to the guests, how would you feel about that?
I suppose, given the current zeitgeist, there would be a risk that everyone would want to do so and a competitive noise would result.
I like stuff, and I love music.
You need stuff to play the music.
But I also like the stuff (hifi gear) for its own sake. It's kind of separate, but linked. Separate interests that support each other.
Music-wise, I'd be happy to go entirely virtual with no physical media at all, and that's what I do now. Not even hard drive storage.
I have kept my physical media (CDs and the ability to play them) only as an insurance covering having my music access beyond my control.
Some folks need the physical side of it, though.
They want to have it in their hands, feel it and fiddle with it. I say 'watch out for going blind'. :D
Different strokes for different folks.
So is all your music via Spotify 160kb Premium download?
Spotify Premium is 320kbps .ogg
jandl100
17-03-2018, 12:29
Hmm, interesting question!
Spotify Premium.
But all my DACs register it as 96khz 24 bit. :scratch:
And a DAC that only goes up to 48khz fails to lock on.
If I've said it once I'll say it again...
Life's too short to be purist in any format for me.
I like the ability to play what I find, in whatever format I find it.
Still regularly buying and spinning CD and vinyl as well as streaming.
Stratmangler
17-03-2018, 13:02
Hmm, interesting question!
Spotify Premium.
But all my DACs register it as 96khz 24 bit. :scratch:
And a DAC that only goes up to 48khz fails to lock on.
Your computer isn't passing the stream through unmolested.
jandl100
17-03-2018, 13:05
Your computer isn't passing the stream through unmolested.
What do you mean by that?
The laptop is upsampling?
Stratmangler
17-03-2018, 13:08
What do you mean by that?
It's using DSP to reprocess what it's outputting.
Spotify Premium is .ogg at a bitrate of 320kbps.
If the stream was 24/96000 the bitrate would up in excess of 2000kbps.
It's that, or your DAC might be automatically upsampling it all.
That's not unheard of.
was thinking the dac will uprate it to 48khz or sommat like that.. mine did although cant remember what.. either 44 or 48
So Spotify Premium is 320 Kbps which is 1/4 of a CD bit rate. And that sounds good?:scratch:
So Spotify Premium is 320 Kbps which is 1/4 of a CD bit rate. And that sounds good?:scratch:
yup, although it sounds mostly pretty close to cd quality.. certainly good on headphones on most music. i find the hifi level of deezer better, but i found the 320kb deezer worse... so there is something going on with their streams that other companies are not using. it is even better on the web player via chrome(spotify)
Stratmangler
17-03-2018, 13:52
So Spotify Premium is 320 Kbps which is 1/4 of a CD bit rate. And that sounds good?:scratch:
Don't play the numbers game.
It's a bullshit game.
yup, although it sounds mostly pretty close to cd quality.. certainly good on headphones on most music. i find the hifi level of deezer better, but i found the 320kb deezer worse... so there is something going on with their streams that other companies are not using. it is even better on the web player via chrome(spotify)
I do listen to plain vanilla 160kbps Spotify via earbuds and it's good enough to research music although I am not sure I would want to use this as my main source for my system.
Stratmangler
17-03-2018, 13:55
I do listen to plain vanilla 160kbps Spotify via earbuds and it's good enough to research music although I am not sure I would want to use this as my main source for my system.
The 320kbps is noticeably better.
Still not as good as CD in my opinion, but it's not bad.
Don't play the numbers game.
It's a bullshit game.
What do you mean?
Stratmangler
17-03-2018, 14:03
What do you mean?
You were turning your nose up at the numbers.
Don't.
The numbers do not tell you the full story.
You were turning your nose up at the numbers.
Don't.
The numbers do not tell you the full story.
I have never heard Spotify Premium and was trying to find out what folk thought of the sound quality compared to CD.
Don't presume you know what I am thinking.
Stratmangler
17-03-2018, 14:17
I have never heard Spotify Premium and was trying to find out what folk thought of the sound quality compared to CD.
Don't presume you know what I am thinking.
Is there another way to interpret this?
So Spotify Premium is 320 Kbps which is 1/4 of a CD bit rate. And that sounds good?:scratch:
Sherwood
17-03-2018, 14:21
I have never heard Spotify Premium and was trying to find out what folk thought of the sound quality compared to CD.
Don't presume you know what I am thinking.
I find Spotify Premium pretty good, though I have currently suspended my subscription in favour of a 3 month Deezer trial. I would say that when you play an album on Spotify it is not glaringly obvious that you are listening to compressed files. However, if you listen longer, you will be aware that it does not have the detail or the resolution of cd quality material. Some, files sound better than others, and I would guess that classical music with a wide dynamic range may fare worse than compressed rock or other popular music.
Geoff
I find Spotify Premium pretty good, though I have currently suspended my subscription in favour of a 3 month Deezer trial. I would say that when you play an album on Spotify it is not glaringly obvious that you are listening to compressed files. However, if you listen longer, you will be aware that it does not have the detail or the resolution of cd quality material. Some, files sound better than others, and I would guess that classical music with a wide dynamic range may fare worse than compressed rock or other popular music.
Geoff
Cheers Geoff. I thought basic Spotify was OK for casual listening but wondered if the Premium service was good enough to use in a system as compared to CD.
Sherwood
17-03-2018, 14:44
Cheers Geoff. I thought basic Spotify was OK for casual listening but wondered if the Premium service was good enough to use in a system as compared to CD.
It only costs £10 to try Premium for a month, and there are sometimes free offers. If you have access to internet radio, try listening to one of the three Linn Radio channels which broadcast at the same bitrate as Premium (i.e. 320k). I find them very acceptable in terms of sound quality, although the catalogue is rather limited (i.e. Linn products).
Geoff
. . . wondered if the Premium service was good enough to use in a system as compared to CD.
That's the 64 million dollar question, depends on your delivery device. A good bare bones player with a good PSU (like Raspberry Pi with a good HAT board) can sound ridiculously good playing Spotify Premium, that you need a good CD player to beat it. But a good delivery device playing a FLAC file, well that's hard to beat with a CDP of any price, assuming you have a DAC to match. Which is why it's becoming so popular, despite the despair of the naysayers.
So many variables to that question James ;)
Try Deezer hifi. You should get a trial but it needs a pc. Sound is good and Gas a great catalogue
jandl100
17-03-2018, 15:51
So Spotify Premium is 320 Kbps which is 1/4 of a CD bit rate. And that sounds good?:scratch:
I started off with TIDAL Hi rez. I dismissed Spotify as not worthy of trying cos of 'the numbers'.
I was happy with Tidal for quite a few months.
Then a friend with similar musical tastes suggested I try Spotify Premium.
Free trial, so why not.
Parallel subs for 3 months to see which one I preferred.
Just in different windows on my PC so very rapid comparisons were possible on the same music.
I convinced myself that Tidal Hi was better.
I did a final comparison - yup, no way can Spotify get this level of rez.
Went back to Spotify just to double check --- and, yes, I was on Spotify already. I just got them mixed up.
Blind test!! (in effect, as I didn't know what I was listening to). I couldn't actually say one was better than the other.
So I settled with Spot Premium and have been happy ever since (well over a year now).
I had a trial on Deezer last year, but the classical catalogue is crap and I find the Spot interface better than any other.
jandl100
17-03-2018, 15:57
I have no tech knowledge of such things, but those who have seem to think that the .ogg files are significantly better than others.
Which may help explain why 320kb/s is not so bad after all.
montesquieu
17-03-2018, 16:25
I find Spotify Premium pretty good, though I have currently suspended my subscription in favour of a 3 month Deezer trial. I would say that when you play an album on Spotify it is not glaringly obvious that you are listening to compressed files. However, if you listen longer, you will be aware that it does not have the detail or the resolution of cd quality material. Some, files sound better than others, and I would guess that classical music with a wide dynamic range may fare worse than compressed rock or other popular music.
Geoff
I would agree with this assessment. It's decent enough for exploration though (then buy the stuff you like).
I started off with TIDAL Hi rez. I dismissed Spotify as not worthy of trying cos of 'the numbers'.
I was happy with Tidal for quite a few months.
Then a friend with similar musical tastes suggested I try Spotify Premium.
Free trial, so why not.
Parallel subs for 3 months to see which one I preferred.
Just in different windows on my PC so very rapid comparisons were possible on the same music.
I convinced myself that Tidal Hi was better.
I did a final comparison - yup, no way can Spotify get this level of rez.
Went back to Spotify just to double check --- and, yes, I was on Spotify already. I just got them mixed up.
Blind test!! (in effect, as I didn't know what I was listening to). I couldn't actually say one was better than the other.
So I settled with Spot Premium and have been happy ever since (well over a year now).
I had a trial on Deezer last year, but the classical catalogue is crap and I find the Spot interface better than any other.
Interesting Jerry. I posed the question because like you I have compared Hi Rez 24/192 (not sure what tidal is) and compared it to CD 16 bit and in many cases not found it to be any better and in some cases especially ripped CD I have preferred CD.
So I wondered if moving on down to an even lower quality from CD such as Spotify Premium whether a significant difference could be heard? I can only listen to Spotify via earbuds and not able to play back via my main system so it would be difficult to quantify any difference this way.
However it encourages me that your evaluation has found that swapping between Higher quality digital and streamed Spotify Premium the differences can be difficult to detect.
I must admit Spotify is a really great tool for finding new music and it would be good to have it streamed via my system but that would mean a DAC and then I would be on the slippery slope to becoming a digital convert.:lol:
jandl100
17-03-2018, 17:06
... and then I would be on the slippery slope to becoming a digital convert.:lol:
Absolutely, it's a slippery slope.
Be afraid.
Be very afraid.
:lolsign:
Never been impressed with Tidal at all, simply compare a mqa crushed file to a high quality red book rip, or better still the original red book master file, you will never look back for quality.
However the streaming services win on sheer volume of music available to the masses.
Also for a quality streaming sound your home network must be good, so many issues relate to having poor bandwidth, Ethernet over mains, extenders that just amplifier the poor signal in the first place plus the delightful SMPS noise ingress.
Get the basic right and your streaming will be better for it.
On out and out performance, these days you need a TT set up that costs twice the price to compete with correctly set up digital imho.
Nothing wrong with vinyl and it can sound fabulous, just so many variables that need to be addressed before that wonderful 20 minutes can be enjoyed.
. . . and then I would be on the slippery slope to becoming a digital convert.:lol:
Haha, steady James, steady.
But in all seriousness and this confuses me somewhat, it doesn't have to be a conversion, but rather an addition. That way you can get so much more enjoyment from music, just for music's sake. Getting hung up on one format being better than the other, or not wanting to steep so low as going digital just doesn't make sense to me.
As a music lover first I am format agnostic, sticking rigidly to a single source severely limits your options on what you can listen too. Of course if you have no desire to expand your horizons and remain stuck in a time warp, just regurgitating the same stuff, it's a moot point - but I still enjoy discovering new music. Which does beg the question, are people like this really and truly a lover of music, or is the gear much more important than they are admitting too or are they in complete denial?
There have been some comments made in this thread which are frankly churlish - sadly nothing new, but if you love music for the sake of the music, who cares how someone enjoys it. We should all embrace that as opposed to turning it into a dick swinging fest at every opportunity.
I just love the music for what it is.
:cool:
I assure you Tim I have no problem finding new music to listen too on vinyl, you may have noticed quite a lot more new stuff is now sold this way.:) Vinyl does not restrict my choice, I have only once found a piece of music I wanted was not available on vinyl. Don't forget the same goes for all digital music and streaming. Not everything is available on these formats. I have often gone to Spotify to listen to a piece of music and not found it there.
Being agnostic about the format you obtain it on does mean that although you may love music you may not be particularly bothered how it sounds? I am bothered how something sounds and if I am going to listen to it I want it to sound great, if doesn't I won't listen to it -simples.
If it was just about music we might just give up all our equipment and listen through a pair of ear buds via a phone at the lowest sound quality possible either MP3 or streaming free Spotify. I must be getting something wrong because most of the worlds population listen to music this way.:lol:
i love the choice of formats. it all sounds good, but different too. Some things are better on different formats. Since my new cd player came i am really enjoying that again, and vinyl is the baby, but streaming has its placetoo, especially on headphones if you use them.
Sherwood
17-03-2018, 18:10
I assure you Tim I have no problem finding new music to listen too on vinyl, you may have noticed quite a lot more new stuff is now sold this way.:) Vinyl does not restrict my choice, I have only once found a piece of music I wanted was not available on vinyl. Don't forget the same goes for all digital music and streaming. Not everything is available on these formats. I have often gone to Spotify to listen to a piece of music and not found it there.
Being agnostic about the format you obtain it on does mean that although you may love music you may not be particularly bothered how it sounds? I am bothered how something sounds and if I am going to listen to it I want it to sound great, if doesn't I won't listen to it -simples.
If it was just about music we might just give up all our equipment and listen through a pair of ear buds via a phone at the lowest sound quality possible either MP3 or streaming free Spotify. I must be getting something wrong because most of the worlds population listen to music this way.:lol:
Seriously?
Geoff
i love the choice of formats. it all sounds good, but different too. Some things are better on different formats. Since my new cd player came i am really enjoying that again, and vinyl is the baby, but streaming has its placetoo, especially on headphones if you use them.
I use many formats too Grant but for different reasons. They are all useful. I use CD in the car and DAB radio and Bluetooth music. I stream Spotify to my iPad to search for new music and listen to Vinyl when I relax in the evening. Lots of formats there. I used to listen to CD in the home until I discovered what I was missing.:)
Vinyl does not restrict my choice
Well you're lucky then, but unfortunately I don't buy that statement at all unless you have a very narrow field of interest. For sure we must have different tastes, as a heck of a lot of the artists I follow often don't release music in any physical form, let alone vinyl, which really frustrates me, as at the very least I like to have the CD I can rip to FLAC. I don't like and will rarely settle for just a lossy download, as it has to sound good for me too, but that wouldn't stop me from having something I really wanted or liked. But I'm clearly talking to an audiophile and there is a gulf of misunderstanding here, which however I try to explain it is always interpreted the wrong way - or I'm not able to get my point across clearly?
My comments were general and I think you have taken them as directed at you, which they weren't - and yes I have noticed vinyl sales are up, I buy vinyl myself too ;)
I'm not entirely sure why vinyl addicts get involved in these discussions to be honest, bit like going to a cheese and wine party when you only drink beer.
I used to use Spotify but the SQ sucked on my system. I had to buy CDs of anything I liked, really. TIDAL stopped the need to do that.
Lower bit rates can be weird. Some recordings can actually sound better, as presumably the compression has killed unpleasant sounding artifacts. That is rarely the case, though.
These days my record player is in storage. It is a good setup but I just prefer digital overall.
Minstrel SE
17-03-2018, 22:20
Couple of points, wait till you have well over 4,000 CDs and around 350 LPs, the real estate they take up is significant and to be honest I would rather have some nice art on the walls, than a load of ugly racks.
I store my CDs in IKEA boxes which are just the right size, in plastic sleeves to save even more space. The jewel case gets recycled, I do however keep ones which have been signed by the artist, got a fair few of those.
If you sold them you would need to delete the file as it would be illegal to have a ripped copy without the original.
I don't need 'stuff' to appreciate music, I know some do which I personally don't get, just as those that do like to collect things don't get why it's not important to me - each to their own ;)
Yes Im fully aware when it gets overwhelming. I helped a guy who had half a million LPs in a basement and much of that ended up in a skip with flood damage. He is now reportedly storing 50,000 cds somewhere.
Most of us have peaked at a level we can comfortably store and display. I can put doors on my shelving units so I dont even have to see the cds on open shelves. I do have some nice art on the walls.
I dont see the problem with owning nice turntable like a Roksan or a good cd transport. Its called enjoying yourself. What else are we going to spend it on because I have everything I need at present
You've got "stuff" to appreciate music just very little of it. Weve all got stuff to appreciate music as you will obviously have some speakers etc.
This really is about the minimalist brigade getting on their high horse and feeling clever or superior about a one box solution. Its not an aim I have. Your argument is suggesting we have a problem we dont have. Your minimalist solution is just an extra shelf for me
I like the ability to play what I find in whatever format I like. I can also stream if I want to and there is no harm to me having a couple of extra hi fi racks. So we have covered what you do and left the option to do much more...wheres the problem?
Theres only a problem if you seek maximum living space and minimalism as a top priority
Streaming hasnt fully grabbed me yet ...I dabble but dont feel its going to take over anytime soon.
The other jibes we are getting is that we are having a love affair with the equipment like we are sad, lonely, square or misguided. Where is the problem with appreciating well made equipment which designers have put their heart and soul into
Its your choice but do you all want a medal for saving one wall of shelving and a couple of rack spaces. The weird argument is the minimalist one. The rest of us are quite happy... leave us alone thanks :)
Boyse6748
17-03-2018, 22:58
Yes Im fully aware when it gets overwhelming. I helped a guy who had half a million LPs in a basement and much of that ended up in a skip with flood damage. He is now reportedly storing 50,000 cds somewhere.
Most of us have peaked at a level we can comfortably store and display. I can put doors on my shelving units so I dont even have to see the cds on open shelves. I do have some nice art on the walls.
I dont see the problem with owning nice turntable like a Roksan or a good cd transport. Its called enjoying yourself. What else are we going to spend it on because I have everything I need at present
You've got "stuff" to appreciate music just very little of it. Weve all got stuff to appreciate music as you will obviously have some speakers etc.
This really is about the minimalist brigade getting on their high horse and feeling clever or superior about a one box solution. Its not an aim I have. Your argument is suggesting we have a problem we dont have. Your minimalist solution is just an extra shelf for me
I like the ability to play what I find in whatever format I like. I can also stream if I want to and there is no harm to me having a couple of extra hi fi racks. So we have covered what you do and left the option to do much more...wheres the problem?
Theres only a problem if you seek maximum living space and minimalism as a top priority
Streaming hasnt fully grabbed me yet ...I dabble but dont feel its going to take over anytime soon.
The other jibes we are getting is that we are having a love affair with the equipment like we are sad, lonely, square or misguided. Where is the problem with appreciating well made equipment which designers have put their heart and soul into
Its your choice but do you all want a medal for saving one wall of shelving and a couple of rack spaces. The weird argument is the minimalist one. The rest of us are quite happy... leave us alone thanks :)
Yes indeed, I do have a love affair with my Hi-Fi equipment, and yes I do live on my own, but I am neither lonely or sad. Being a Vinyl freak doesn’t mean that 2018 software like Roon/Tidal is a bad thing.
For me it’s an education on what’s available....... regardless of the bit rate numbers.
Roon has educated me in available music that makes me happy. If I so choose, perhaps I will purchase what I hear on Vinyl..... or perhaps not!
Having an almost unlimited selection at you fingertips can’t be a bad thing.
Quality is another matter..... for me, Roon has the edge.... but that just my opinion!
Don’t knock it until you try it!!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
If it was just about music we might just give up all our equipment and listen through a pair of ear buds via a phone at the lowest sound quality possible either MP3 or streaming free Spotify.
I can think of a lot worse quality to listen to than MP3 or free Spotify, even through 'ear buds' - a lot worse in fact !!
Compared to a lot of the shitty sound reproduction regularly encountered in the pre-digital era, we are now living in an audio golden age with almost limitless possibilities (and at a fraction of the cost...)
Pieoftheday
18-03-2018, 00:05
I don't have a problem with that.
Fill yer boots.
When your library gets above a certain size, its size becomes a hindrance in itself to using it.
I recall seeing John peels home studio /music library, wonderful.ofcourse we don't all have the space
I think that there is perhaps some ego/dominance going on sometimes in Hi-Fi discussions.
On another forum a propounder dismisses 'legacy HI-Fi' because it is old, complicated and involves having a rack which gets dusty and which is very 'old fashioned'; he says that we should all have actives, and stream, because it is so simple.
My order of priorities is formed from the great impact music has had on me, and my resulting passion for it.
It was formed in a vinyl age, and now I find that too messy to use, though I keep all my records as a reference because they are still good music and special to me.
CD is to me a high quality source, but I will at some time stream because of the amount available to sample, and it may be that its quality becomes the best, but I don't care about having a rack of stuff as looking archaic, or a shelf of CDs on a wall, these are to me very important things in my life, and a part of my everyday activities and experiences.
I also love high quality possessions and good engineering, and this applies to all I own.
My house is not a show house for minimalism, it is my home and to me the home is the workshop of the body, and it has functions, one of which is to support my love of music.
I cannot bear soulless homes which seem to depict a lack of involvement in life, this often reflecting the lack of commitment to life itself by the dweller, and there being no indication of involvement in anything much.
Three doors away a lady used to have a potters wheel and kiln, and I know of people who fine-art paint.
To me this desire to express a minimalist home for others to see is a waste of opportunities to enrich experience, and maximise life itself.
montesquieu
18-03-2018, 01:07
Compared to a lot of the shitty sound reproduction regularly encountered in the pre-digital era, we are now living in an audio golden age with almost limitless possibilities (and at a fraction of the cost...)
Yes but the down side of limitless music is a cheapening of the experience. When I was in my teens I maybe had 30 or 50 LPs, each a treasure costing a week or more's pocket money, each of which when I play I can recall to this day as they come up, every word, every splash symbol, every variation as a hook comes back with or without backing vocals and so on, in classical records where there's a buzz in a pizzicato section or where the conductor's baton hits the music stand.
I doubt youngsters on spotify listen with the same level of attention or focus, or through the same amount of repetition acquire the same deep familiarity with a small number of recordings that become a benchmark for how they might subsequently listen and respond to everything.
Where something becomes so cheap it's almost free, it loses value and loses significance. Call me an old fuddy duddy if you like but I think this is a bad thing for music and for music appreciation.
On another forum a propounder dismisses 'legacy HI-Fi' because it is old, complicated and involves having a rack which gets dusty and which is very 'old fashioned'; he says that we should all have actives, and stream, because it is so simple.
Whilst I agree with a lot of your points about the sterility of 'minimalism for minimalism's sake' I have to also concede that I think the propounder has some valid points. There is so much very good stuff in small packages available now that the full blown hifi rack topped with an obligatory 'legacy' TT does seem a tad overkill, unnecessary and decidedly out-of-time.
That said, I have such a rack next to my computer desk and it ain't going anywhere - even though I hardly ever pull an LP out its cover any more (too busy scouring the interweb for tracks to play....)
Yes but the down side of limitless music is a cheapening of the experience. When I was in my teens I maybe had 30 or 50 LPs, each a treasure costing a week or more's pocket money, each of which when I play I can recall to this day as they come up, every word, every splash symbol, every variation as a hook comes back with or without backing vocals and so on, in classical records where there's a buzz in a pizzicato section or where the conductor's baton hits the music stand.
I doubt youngsters on spotify listen with the same level of attention or focus, or through the same amount of repetition acquire the same deep familiarity with a small number of recordings that become a benchmark for how they might subsequently listen and respond to everything.
Where something becomes so cheap it's almost free, it loses value and loses significance. Call me an old fuddy duddy if you like but I think this is a bad thing for music and for music appreciation.
inclined to agree. I was probably more avid with my records when I only had a handful. Appreciated them more too. But, times have changed and I, alas have too, but I often hanker for those days again. Maybe I should pull out 20 or so and sell the rest. :scratch:
Yes but the down side of limitless music is a cheapening of the experience. .
Only if you wish to make it that. I can see no reason why the availability of music has any real impact on one's appreciation of its qualities. In fact I find that quite absurd and also more than a tad condescending - leaving aside the decidedly glib and patronising comments on 'youngsters' which quite frankly make my blood boil.
Boyse6748
18-03-2018, 01:28
Only if you wish to make it that. I can see no reason why the availability of music has any real impact on one's appreciation of its qualities. In fact I find that quite absurd and also more than a tad condescending - leaving aside the decidedly glib and patronising comments on 'youngsters' which quite frankly make my blood boil.
A mere 70 years of age..... and it does it for me...... perhaps I’m just abnormal by your judgment [emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
montesquieu
18-03-2018, 01:31
Only if you wish to make it that. I can see no reason why the availability of music has any real impact on one's appreciation of its qualities. In fact I find that quite absurd and also more than a tad condescending - leaving aside the decidedly glib and patronising comments on 'youngsters' which quite frankly make my blood boil.
Your blood can boil as much as it likes but it’s human nature (as well as the foundation of economics, which is surely only an attempt to codify human nature into patterns divined through observation) that value falls as supply rises and that infinite supply will have an obvious consequence.
Your blood can boil as much as it likes but it’s human nature (as well as the foundation of economics, which is surely only an attempt to codify human nature into patterns divined through observation) that value falls as supply rises and that infinite supply will have an obvious consequence.
Odd belief system you subscribe to ....
Ah well, each to their own.
Boyse6748
18-03-2018, 01:36
Your blood can boil as much as it likes but it’s human nature (as well as the foundation of economics, which is surely only an attempt to codify human nature into patterns divined through observation) that value falls as supply rises and that infinite supply will have an obvious consequence.
Tom,
I think you need chill out..... wise words indeed.
People like what we like...... it’s an individual world out there!!!
A mere 70 years of age..... and it does it for me...... perhaps I’m just abnormal by your judgment [emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]
?????
montesquieu
18-03-2018, 01:54
Odd belief system you subscribe to ....
Ah well, each to their own.
What’s odd about it? You visit people who have gone over to streaming and there they are, clicking about and jumping around, yes the buffet in front of them is enormous but so is the potential for indigestion.
Yes those of us who have established mature listening habits might well use the technology in a more focused way but the format itself does not encourage focused, repeat listening of the sort that leads to deeper musical understanding and I think this is apparent already in the playlist mentality so ubiquitous among the young.
(As it happens I have a 21 and a 19 year old both with pretty sophisticated tastes no chart rubbish thankfully but even my daughter an accomplished harpist has much less focus on getting to the bottom of music than I did, the medium itself impacts the experience I believe in many ways that are detrimental to serious listening).
What’s odd about it?
Unless you are actually Methuselah, you were born into the age of radio and advanced mass production and distribution of music.
If you think about it for even a few seconds you should realise that your argument is doomed to fail, but please do proceed ....
montesquieu
18-03-2018, 02:23
So what point are you trying to make ? You were praising effectively limitless accessibility of music. I argued that streaming has down sides, in particular for young people where the technology actively discourages focused listening (though us old farts can be butterfies with the iPad too). From what I can see your blood is apparently boiling away for some reason but you dont have an argument that this is not an issue.
The basic point about when something becomes effective free it loses value is, I think, indisputable. (And actually calculable in the amounts paid to artists for streamed plays vs what they used to get for an LP or CD sale).
Your blood can boil as much as it likes but it’s human nature (as well as the foundation of economics, which is surely only an attempt to codify human nature into patterns divined through observation) that value falls as supply rises and that infinite supply will have an obvious consequence.
You only have look at what happened with TV.
I thought the question was "How many folk now use streaming . . . " ?
I think by now we all know you don't like it and it's clear you never will as you don't want to, that horse is thoroughly beaten to death ;)
Well, A “How many folk now use streaming....?” Isn’t the question the OP asked and B, even it it had been, I’m entitled to say ‘not me’ as anyone else.
You must be feeling very sensitive regarding criticism of streaming because because I’ve actually seldom commented on it, never mind ‘beating it to death’. It’s also entirely untrue that I don’t want to like streaming!
A friend of mine has gone to a top of the range Linn System after selling his CD Player and Turntable.
The speakers alone cost him nearly £60,000 and I think the Klimax DS around £20,000.
He tells me he does not miss not having a CD Player or Turntable.
narabdela
18-03-2018, 09:21
He tells me he does not miss not having a CD Player or Turntable.
Hard to admit to after dropping 80 grand. :lol:
walpurgis
18-03-2018, 09:23
He tells me he does not miss not having a CD Player or Turntable.
And I don't miss not having streaming. Not having felt the urge to try it yet.
It seems to be a means of access to music that has some way to go before it is settled. The options available appear an endless endless jumble and I constantly see bemused people struggling to find their way to a set-up they can use easily and understand.
No doubt some are perfectly happy, but there always seems to be an underlying and unspoken impression, to me at least, that some folk are thinking the sound is a bit of an 'also ran'.
Why does it have to be one or the other, to the point of almost getting into a bunfight over it? :scratch:
Have spotify and Tidal subscriptions here as well as 6000 odd albums in digital format.
Choice of music...isn’t a problem.
Yet, I still enjoy spinning vinyl absolutely its a nice thing to have.
There is something to owning a “nice thing”, whether a watch, fine art, hifi kit or whatever floats your boat.
Digital streaming doesnt impact on that?
Good (and not necessarrily expensive) digital kit can make streamed music as good as it needs to be imo.
whats not to be happy about? :)
Tom,
Your saying that availability of streamed music takes away from “focused listening” caught my ear?
We all enjoy music differently and whilst I DO enjoy the focused listening thing, its great just to enjoy the journey and appreciate being able to dig into new music you might otherwise never have heard of.
If its really great...
we can buy the album, shut he curtains and get our concentration face on. :)
mightymonoped
18-03-2018, 09:30
Why does it have to be one or the other, to the point of almost getting into a bunfight over it? :scratch:
Have spotify and Tidal subscriptions here as well as 6000 odd albums in digital format.
Choice of music...isn’t a problem.
Yet, I still enjoy spinning vinyl absolutely its a nice thing to have.
There is something to owning a “nice thing”, whether a watch, fine art, hifi kit or whatever floats your boat.
Digital streaming doesnt impact on that?
Good (and not necessarrily expensive) digital kit can make streamed music as good as it needs to be imo.
whats not to be happy about? :)
Tom,
Your saying that availability of streamed music takes away from “focused listening” caught my ear?
We all enjoy music differently and whilst I DO enjoy the focused listening thing, its great just to enjoy the journey and appreciate being able to dig into new music you might otherwise never have heard of.
If its really great...
we can buy the album, shut he curtains and get our concentration face on. :)
+1 to all that [emoji106]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Of course not everyone wants to dissect music. I know I don't.
What I liked about only having a small collection was the lack of temptation to chop and change which with introduction of cd and now streaming, is now just too easy.
So. Yes I think I enjoyed my records more when I had less choice. Think tv was similar
I can recall when a new album came out you wanted to hear it was a big deal. You might have heard a single or singles on the radio for free but not the whole album.
You had to travel to a physical shop and pay a lot of money (comparatively) to get it. But you had something for your money, a 12 inch disc inside a glossy cardboard folder with a piece of artwork (and maybe some more stuff inside). You'd stop at your mate's house on the way home because he wanted a listen too. Stick it on his turntable and play it while he taped a copy for himself.
Tape was always very much second class of course and if your mate really liked the album he would soon go out and buy the vinyl himself. And this would be reciprocated, if your mate was first to buy the album he would bring it to you for a listen (and a bit of illegal copying).
At the time this was just how it was and we did not think it wonderful or special in the way we do now when we look back at those times from what (was then) the far future.
However I don't really know if we can argue that something valuable and worthwhile has been lost. It's the nature of people to look back at the past and think that things were somehow better. It didn't feel that way to us at the time! A month's subscription to a streaming service costs less than one record album did then (allowing for inflation). And those blank tapes were not free, either. (Although I did once record an album over a talking book for the blind, which I felt a bit guilty about for 5 minutes).
If we could have had that facility as youngsters back in the 1970s and 80s would we not have jumped at it? I suspect so, if only for financial reasons.
To some extent this is a case of nostalgia not being what it used to be. The world just moves on regardless.
Personally I don't use streaming because I find computers irritating and the last thing I want when I am listening to music is to be irritated; and I already have a system that works fine for me. I do not hold any ideological position on it either way.
Seriously?
Geoff
Yep, seriously. If I hear something contemporary I cannot recall not finding it on vinyl, Classical music is the exception.
Much of the music I like is either available new on vinyl or I buy via discogs and second hand markets where I have obtained about 50% of the stuff I own.
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 10:04
Yep, seriously. If I hear something contemporary I cannot recall not finding it on vinyl, Classical music is the exception.
Much of the music I like is either available new on vinyl or I buy via discogs and second hand markets where I have obtained about 50% of the stuff I own.
So what is the one instance you referred to?
Geoff
So what point are you trying to make ? You were praising effectively limitless accessibility of music. .
Except I wasn't ... not at any point on this or any other thread. What I said (and you quoted in your first response) was that:
"Compared to a lot of the shitty sound reproduction regularly encountered in the pre-digital era, we are now living in an audio golden age with almost limitless possibilities (and at a fraction of the cost...)"
You interpreted that to mean something altogether different and decided to go off on one .... your problem, not mine.
So what is the one instance you referred to?
Geoff
Vox Cosmica Hildegarde von Bingen.
The basic point about when something becomes effective free it loses value is, I think, indisputable.
Of course it's disputable, - what price do you put on a golden sunrise or a spring daffodil? .. the 'value' of both is immense yet the cost is nil.
Your mistake is to conflate 'cost' with 'value' in purely economic terms; appreciation of an art form is not irrevocably bound by your crude equation (even though art snobs like to think it is)
Vox Cosmica Hildegarde von Bingen.
And the same to you! With knobs on! :eek:
And the same to you! With knobs on! :eek:
:lol:
Vox Cosmica Hildegarde von Bingen.
Now thats just rude James...
Try and find Vox Cosmica Hilegarde Von Bingen on streaming services. Anyone who does wins a cookie:)
Only available on CD via specialist outlet.
jandl100
18-03-2018, 10:39
Too much choice nowadays.
I recall in my long lost yoof, some 35 40 years ago maybe, I had 39 different LPs of Bruckner's 8th symphony. :mental:
Seguing into the too much choice of online streaming is a natural for me. :eyebrows:
jandl100
18-03-2018, 10:42
Try and find Vox Cosmica Hilegarde Von Bingen on streaming services. Anyone who does wins a cookie:)
Only available on CD via specialist outlet.
Yum, I like cookies!
https://open.spotify.com/album/4rZP3pPBRaDns4Gb5z9BcG?si=AwXK8RrtSBKW-WDyp1xWfA
http://mitoconcerts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/vox-5.jpg
Try and find Vox Cosmica Hilegarde Von Bingen on streaming services. Anyone who does wins a cookie:)
Only available on CD via specialist outlet.
Found it on You-Tube, does that count?
Was hoping from the name that it might be some 1970s psychedelic funk along the lines of 'The Clones Of Doctor Funkenstein.'
But it turns out it is church music. :(
Too much choice nowadays.
I recall in my long lost yoof, some 35 40 years ago maybe, I had 39 different LPs of Bruckner's 8th symphony. :mental:
Seguing into the too much choice of online streaming is a natural for me. :eyebrows:You mean it became natural after a lot of effort from me. Resistance was appreciable but inevitable assimilation was not![emoji38]
Try and find Vox Cosmica Hilegarde Von Bingen on streaming services. Anyone who does wins a cookie:)
Only available on CD via specialist outlet.
here you go..on deezer:ner:
https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4764/bK6XS7.png
Mikeandvan
18-03-2018, 10:45
May'be a lot of current music just isn't worth paying for? It literally is that crap.
here you go..on deezer:ner:
https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4764/bK6XS7.png
Never even heard of deezer! I must get with it Grant. What cookie would you like?:)
May'be a lot of current music just isn't worth paying for? It literally is that crap.
I do find some current music amazing but it's not generally mainstream or in the iTunes top ten.;)
jandl100
18-03-2018, 10:49
Oi - I was first!
It's on Spotify, too.
I want that cookie.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?57288-How-many-folk-now-use-streaming-and-have-sold-all-their-other-audio-equipment&p=959085#post959085
Yes Im fully aware when it gets overwhelming. I helped a guy who had half a million LPs in a basement and much of that ended up in a skip with flood damage. He is now reportedly storing 50,000 cds somewhere.
Most of us have peaked at a level we can comfortably store and display. I can put doors on my shelving units so I dont even have to see the cds on open shelves. I do have some nice art on the walls.
I dont see the problem with owning nice turntable like a Roksan or a good cd transport. Its called enjoying yourself. What else are we going to spend it on because I have everything I need at present
You've got "stuff" to appreciate music just very little of it. Weve all got stuff to appreciate music as you will obviously have some speakers etc.
This really is about the minimalist brigade getting on their high horse and feeling clever or superior about a one box solution. Its not an aim I have. Your argument is suggesting we have a problem we dont have. Your minimalist solution is just an extra shelf for me
I like the ability to play what I find in whatever format I like. I can also stream if I want to and there is no harm to me having a couple of extra hi fi racks. So we have covered what you do and left the option to do much more...wheres the problem?
Theres only a problem if you seek maximum living space and minimalism as a top priority
Streaming hasnt fully grabbed me yet ...I dabble but dont feel its going to take over anytime soon.
The other jibes we are getting is that we are having a love affair with the equipment like we are sad, lonely, square or misguided. Where is the problem with appreciating well made equipment which designers have put their heart and soul into
Its your choice but do you all want a medal for saving one wall of shelving and a couple of rack spaces. The weird argument is the minimalist one. The rest of us are quite happy... leave us alone thanks :)
A little flabbergasted TBH at the level of hostility in your reply, I'm not criticising anyone for what they like, I'm simply just explaining what I like - why does it upset people so much if they like something different, especially if it's digital?
jandl100
18-03-2018, 10:53
You mean it became natural after a lot of effort from me. Resistance was appreciable but inevitable assimilation was not![emoji38]
Yes yes.
I have already acknowledged your perserverance in convincing me that streaming was the way to go. :)
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?57288-How-many-folk-now-use-streaming-and-have-sold-all-their-other-audio-equipment&p=957848#post957848
Yum, I like cookies!
https://open.spotify.com/album/4rZP3pPBRaDns4Gb5z9BcG?si=AwXK8RrtSBKW-WDyp1xWfA
http://mitoconcerts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/vox-5.jpg
Thanks Jerry. To be honest when I last looked for it on Spotify it was not available. Another cookie for you.:)
Never even heard of deezer! I must get with it Grant. What cookie would you like?:)
choc chip;) . deezer hifi is good
Found it on You-Tube, does that count?
Was hoping from the name that it might be some 1970s psychedelic funk along the lines of 'The Clones Of Doctor Funkenstein.'
But it turns out it is church music. :(
Sorry to disappoint, didn't think it was your cup tea!:)
A little flabbergasted TBH at the level of hostility in your reply, I'm not criticising anyone for what they like, I'm simply just explaining what I like - why does it upset people so much if they like something different, especially if it's digital?
nowt wrong with digital Tim. its my most used format by miles. i may have gone this way as it was much easier on my hip, but i am pleased i did.. open mind wins every time
jandl100
18-03-2018, 11:04
Thanks Jerry. To be honest when I last looked for it on Spotify it was not available. Another cookie for you.:)
Actual picture of me eating my prize
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegreenhead.com%2Fimgs%2Fsesa me-street-cookie-monster-apron-2.jpg&f=1
montesquieu
18-03-2018, 11:09
Of course it's disputable, - what price do you put on a golden sunrise or a spring daffodil? .. the 'value' of both is immense yet the cost is nil.
Your mistake is to conflate 'cost' with 'value' in purely economic terms; appreciation of an art form is not irrevocably bound by your crude equation (even though art snobs like to think it is)
Fatuous comparison. Recorded music is an economic commodity with a price and a market. A sunrise isn't and doesn't. The comparison with TV is far more appropriate.
I've never said that streaming has no benefit, I use it myself to find new music to buy on vinyl and CD - generally if I've listened to something half a dozen times it's time to buy a copy so I can listen at higher quality.
What I do maintain is that infinite choice cheapens the experience and is already having a detrimental effect on listening habits and the perception of value of recorded music in people's lives. (As does ubiquitous muzak, which is simply noise pollution).
Ingvar Kamprad, the founder of Ikea who recently died, had many strange attitudes but one I admired was his resistance to putting the whole Ikea inventory online. He wanted people to have to physically make the journey to the store, to work to make a choice and to work again in many cases to build up the purchase. That striving added to the perceived value at the customer. I think he was onto something.
Primalsea
18-03-2018, 11:14
Actual picture of me eating my prize
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegreenhead.com%2Fimgs%2Fsesa me-street-cookie-monster-apron-2.jpg&f=1
Jerry, I can see why you don’t use vinyl anymore. Static must be a real bitch with that coat of furr, although dusting you hifi must be quite easy.
Actual picture of me eating my prize
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegreenhead.com%2Fimgs%2Fsesa me-street-cookie-monster-apron-2.jpg&f=1
:lol:
Actual picture of me eating my prize
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegreenhead.com%2Fimgs%2Fsesa me-street-cookie-monster-apron-2.jpg&f=1
You're a lot more blue than you used to be.
Cookie monster in re-hab:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=family+guy+cookie+monster+rehab&view=detail&mid=8FD2492EF8894B6A854B8FD2492EF8894B6A854B&FORM=VIRE
https://i.imgflip.com/21620j.jpg
It isn't on TIDAL. No cookie for me:(
I may try Deezer Grant.
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 11:21
Of course it's disputable, - what price do you put on a golden sunrise or a spring daffodil? .. the 'value' of both is immense yet the cost is nil.
Your mistake is to conflate 'cost' with 'value' in purely economic terms; appreciation of an art form is not irrevocably bound by your crude equation (even though art snobs like to think it is)
Exactly! This is yet another example of an assumption or claim not supported by empirical evidence or verifiable. The reality is that, as individuals, the value we place on a commodity is not determined by its price, but by a set of personal preferences. The exception is where purchases are motivated by "conspicuous consumption" and the desire to demonstrate an individual's superior social status and greater purchasing power.
When most of us started our music collections, we were strongly constrained by our limited budgets and so inevitably had a small music collection that we listened to more frequently. Furthermore, many of us started our collections when young and impressionable, and when we had the luxury of repeated listening and forensic scrutiny of the few albums we owned. For many, it was also a time of limited alternative entertainment opportunities (i.e. two or three terrestrial tv channels, and very limited radio options). It is not difficult to understand how we developed a special fondness for a few albums. However, to argue that having access to a much wider choice of music is to diminish the pleasure we derive from music is just nonsense.
Of course, we must factor in additional elements to our current listening choices. We can now choose to listen to specific tracks and albums at a time that is convenient to us, and, at a marginal financial cost that is (effectively) zero. Monetary prices are therefore no longer the constraint on our listening choices: time is. Relatively speaking we have gone from being money poor and leisure time rich; to money rich and leisure time poor. We also have many more opportunities for how we spend our leisure time (e.g. Netflix, computer gaming, and various forms of computer browsing and social media). Clearly, for many young people, music does not rank high on their list of leisure pursuits. It is also true, that for many people on this forum, that music has become less important as a leisure activity than it was for them in the past. It is the broadening of choice as to how we spend our leisure time and changing social preferences that determine the popularity of music as a leisure time activity. It is nonsense to suggest that greater financial accessibility to music diminishes its value. To suggest this is to make the choices required by income/price constraints a "virtue" rather than a financial necessity!
Geoff
Fatuous comparison. Recorded music is an economic commodity with a price and a market. A sunrise isn't and doesn't. The comparison with TV is far more appropriate.
What on earth has TV got to do with the price of eggs??
- or crappy cardboard furniture.
montesquieu
18-03-2018, 11:23
It isn't on TIDAL. No cookie for me:(
I may try Deezer Grant.
I had parallel subscriptions running for a while - Tidal, Qubuz and Spotify - to enable me to make direct comparisons.
Tidal was the first to be dropped, mainly for its shoddy application of metadata. For classical it also had the worst selection (and almost nothing at higher resolutions).
Qubuz later went too again for the metadata issue.
It actually surprised me that Spotify won but the classical choice is actually very good and the quality good enough for my purposes given it it's not a primary source.
If your music is on Tidal at hi-res then it might well be the best choice but it doesn't suit everyone.
montesquieu
18-03-2018, 11:24
What on earth has TV got to do with the price of eggs??
- or crappy cardboard furniture.
Strong rebuttal there bud. You should be on Question Time.
montesquieu
18-03-2018, 11:26
Of course, we must factor in additional elements to our current listening choices. We can now choose to listen to specific tracks and albums at a time that is convenient to us, and, at a marginal financial cost that is (effectively) zero. Monetary prices are therefore no longer the constraint on our listening choices: time is. Relatively speaking we have gone from being money poor and leisure time rich; to money rich and leisure time poor. We also have many more opportunities for how we spend our leisure time (e.g. Netflix, computer gaming, and various forms of computer browsing and social media). Clearly, for many young people, music does not rank high on their list of leisure pursuits. It is also true, that for many people on this forum, that music has become less important as a leisure activity than it was for them in the past. It is the broadening of choice as to how we spend our leisure time and changing social preferences that determine the popularity of music as a leisure time activity. It is nonsense to suggest that greater financial accessibility to music diminishes its value. To suggest this is to make the choices required by income/price constraints a "virtue" rather than a financial necessity!
There's a lot of merit in this argument but you could equally argue that one of the reasons music no longer has the hold it has over young people that it used to have is precisely that it's a commodified, low-value experience.
Precisely some of the 'hipster' ethic (ok this is a fashion that may fade as others before it have) is to put some striving - financially and physically - back in the consumption of music, which adds to the pleasure.
. It is nonsense to suggest that greater financial accessibility to music diminishes its value. To suggest this is to make the choices required by income/price constraints a "virtue" rather than a financial necessity!
Geoff
It can be argued that such a restriction is a virtue, though. If we had unlimited access to absolutely anything we wanted would that improve the quality of our lives, would it make us better people, happier people? I suspect it would have the opposite effect.
Just listening to Vox Cosmica on Spotify - now ordered it on CD! Thanks everyone who found it.:thumbsup:
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 11:42
Vox Cosmica Hildegarde von Bingen.
I would suggest that either your musical preferences and searches are very limited. Many of the artists and new music that I listen to will never make it to vinyl, and some probably never make it to cd.
I am not suggesting that anyone should adopt streaming technology or sign up to streaming services. However, I reject arguments that streaming has not come of age or is technically complicated or just for techies.
As to vinyl, I still have my vinyl hardware and a very large record collection and they still sound very good. However, despite the resurgence of vinyl, I do not see that it has a long term future. Clearly, some of the current popularity is from oldies (like myself) nostalgic for the physical experience of vinyl. Ultimately, economic and broader social forces will determine the future of vinyl. As good as vinyl can be, it costs many times more to get a good sound from vinyl than it does from digital. Also, we have to acknowledge that the 2 times 20 minute album format was shaped by the technical limitations of the time. Artists can now release (and sell) a single track or their complete repertoire without any obvious constraint. Additionally, I cannot see a return of vinyl stores to the high street. You only need to see how cds have diminished in terms of store floorspace in the likes of HMV, to see how physical media are on a downward decline.
Streaming is not for everyone: neither is Vox Cosmica Hildegarde von Bingen. However, it is pointless to dismiss subjective preferences as not valid.
Geoff
I had parallel subscriptions running for a while - Tidal, Qubuz and Spotify - to enable me to make direct comparisons.
Tidal was the first to be dropped, mainly for its shoddy application of metadata. For classical it also had the worst selection (and almost nothing at higher resolutions).
Qubuz later went too again for the metadata issue.
It actually surprised me that Spotify won but the classical choice is actually very good and the quality good enough for my purposes given it it's not a primary source.
If your music is on Tidal at hi-res then it might well be the best choice but it doesn't suit everyone.Metadata is irrelevant to me but TIDAL's blatant Jay Z marketing does annoy me. A quick Google will provide more info than any metadata held in any service.
Quobuz software was pathetic last time I tried it. TIDAL streams actually sounded better than Quobuz. I spent some time looking at the Quobuz USB output I was so sure it wasn't what it said it was. That was too much like hard work to decode to prove the point. I could have been wrong but I really was convinced it wasn't up to par for some reason.
Deezer will have its own issues - they all do but it has to be worth a try for a month I think.
Metadata is irrelevant to me but TIDAL's blatant Jay Z marketing does annoy me. A quick Google will provide more info than any metadata held in any service.
Quobuz software was pathetic last time I tried it. TIDAL streams actually sounded better than Quobuz. I spent some time looking at the Quobuz USB output I was so sure it wasn't what it said it was. That was too much like hard work to decode to prove the point. I could have been wrong but I really was convinced it wasn't up to par for some reason.
Deezer will have its own issues - they all do but it has to be worth a try for a month I think.
make sure you download the beta hifi one for pc and click the hifi stream at bottom.
Strong rebuttal there bud. You should be on Question Time.
You lost the argument way back when you misquoted me. After that, 'you reap what you sow'..
Mikeandvan
18-03-2018, 11:51
I do find some current music amazing but it's not generally mainstream or in the iTunes top ten.;)
I wouldn't know where to start, stopped listening to new music around 2000. But there haven't been any big shifts in popular music since the 90s.
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 11:53
It can be argued that such a restriction is a virtue, though. If we had unlimited access to absolutely anything we wanted would that improve the quality of our lives, would it make us better people, happier people? I suspect it would have the opposite effect.
This is to make the incorrect assumption that financial barriers are the sole or even major determinant of consumption. The fact that a streaming service has 50 quadrillion tracks does not mean that I will change my listening behaviour. These services have effectively replaced a financial budget by a time budget. I am no more likely to listen to Wagner now that I can do so without financial penalty, because I can't stand the music, and I am not willing to use my scarce listening time on such music.
Rather than diminish my musical enjoyment, streaming services allow me to find more of the type of music I like through features such as "related artists". They also help me avoid buying cds because I like one track I heard on the radio. As such they are an invaluable filtering service that help me focus on music that better matches my tastes and preferences.
Geoff
I would suggest that either your musical preferences and searches are very limited. Many of the artists and new music that I listen to will never make it to vinyl, and some probably never make it to cd.
I am not suggesting that anyone should adopt streaming technology or sign up to streaming services. However, I reject arguments that streaming has not come of age or is technically complicated or just for techies.
As to vinyl, I still have my vinyl hardware and a very large record collection and they still sound very good. However, despite the resurgence of vinyl, I do not see that it has a long term future. Clearly, some of the current popularity is from oldies (like myself) nostalgic for the physical experience of vinyl. Ultimately, economic and broader social forces will determine the future of vinyl. As good as vinyl can be, it costs many times more to get a good sound from vinyl than it does from digital. Also, we have to acknowledge that the 2 times 20 minute album format was shaped by the technical limitations of the time. Artists can now release (and sell) a single track or their complete repertoire without any obvious constraint. Additionally, I cannot see a return of vinyl stores to the high street. You only need to see how cds have diminished in terms of store floorspace in the likes of HMV, to see how physical media are on a downward decline.
Streaming is not for everyone: neither is Vox Cosmica Hildegarde von Bingen. However, it is pointless to dismiss subjective preferences as not valid.
Geoff
+1
... - why does it upset people so much if they like something different, especially if it's digital?
You forget that vinyl has quasi-religious status, fetishised by a cult of devotees ... digital is by definition a form of blasphemy and will incur the wrath .... ;)
make sure you download the beta hifi one for pc and click the hifi stream at bottom.Will do.
BTW the Quobuz and TIDAL USB output was different for the same tracks, for whatever reason.
I should have redirected the output to the laptop's soundcard, captured the soundcard's buffer and analysed them in a wave editor. That would've been easier and more informative. Couldn't be arsed at the end of the day.
montesquieu
18-03-2018, 12:02
You forget that vinyl has quasi-religious status, fetishised by a cult of devotees ... digital is by definition a form of blasphemy and will incur the wrath .... ;)
Nah. It just sounds better.
jandl100
18-03-2018, 12:08
I think I have tried most maybe all streaming services.
Classical music is all I really care about, anything else can take its chances.
As such, Spotify wins easily for the breadth of its catalogue and its metadata/indexing which allows you to find the music. It's far from a perfect search tool, but a bit of lateral thinking in search terms generally gets me there in the end.
Happily, I am sufficiently hard of hearing that I don't notice any shortfall in sound quality. :D
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 12:10
There's a lot of merit in this argument but you could equally argue that one of the reasons music no longer has the hold it has over young people that it used to have is precisely that it's a commodified, low-value experience.
Precisely some of the 'hipster' ethic (ok this is a fashion that may fade as others before it have) is to put some striving - financially and physically - back in the consumption of music, which adds to the pleasure.
Are you seriously suggesting that music has only recently become a commercially driven commodity. Look at the historical marketing of recorded music; the widespread practice of Payola; the appalling exploitation of artists and their property rights; and, the manipulation employed by the record labels to artificially boost a record in the album charts. Music is a commodity, and we make subjective choices about how we spend our limited economic resources, no tleast the use of our time.
The reason that tastes are changing is that music has competition from other leisure activities that it did not face in the past. Additionally, technology gives us greater choice over what music we listen to, and where and when. Whilst I feel sorry for many younger folk who have never heard hi quality music reproduction I am not arrogant enough to suggest that their choices about leisure time pursuits are wrong.
Geoff
Primalsea
18-03-2018, 12:12
Happily, I am sufficiently hard of hearing that I don't notice any shortfall in sound quality. :D
Audiophile hearing aids. BOOM! A new hifi product for the market. I have all the good ideas me.
Nah. It just sounds better.
Sure - "Once Upon A Time....."
(other fairy stories are also available)
montesquieu
18-03-2018, 12:20
Are you seriously suggesting that music has only recently become a commercially driven commodity. Look at the historical marketing of recorded music; the widespread practice of Payola; the appalling exploitation of artists and their property rights; and, the manipulation employed by the record labels to artificially boost a record in the album charts. Music is a commodity, and we make subjective choices about how we spend our limited economic resources, no tleast the use of our time.
The reason that tastes are changing is that music has competition from other leisure activities that it did not face in the past. Additionally, technology gives us greater choice over what music we listen to, and where and when. Whilst I feel sorry for many younger folk who have never heard hi quality music reproduction I am not arrogant enough to suggest that their choices about leisure time pursuits are wrong.
Geoff
No I'm not saying that as you well know. Good Cathy Newman impersonation though.
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 12:21
Sure - "Once Upon A Time....."
(other fairy stories are also available)
Yes, it can sound better, but at a cost much higher than for a digital system. Despite claims to the contrary, only a small proportion of new music makes it to vinyl, so as a technology it is fine if you are content with limited new content.
Although, sound quality is a primary issue, one cannot discount the convenience aspects of vinyl, not least the storage problems of a large collection, with which I am very familiar.
Geoff
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 12:23
No I'm not saying that as you well know. Good Cathy Newman impersonation though.
You know that personal insults do not strengthen your arguments. So respond to the point: in what way has recorded music now become commodified?
Geoff
Happily, I am sufficiently hard of hearing that I don't notice any shortfall in sound quality. :D
I reckon the rez of my speakers makes small differences noticeable.
Yes, it can sound better, but at a cost much higher than for a digital system.
If cost were the only factor then it would be relatively straightforward - simply throw some dosh at it, satisfaction guaranteed!!
However its clear from a cursory trawl of this forum that buying the gear is just the start of it .... deducing arm mass, cartridge matching, setting overhang and VTA, RIAA correction , etc. etc. etc.
Achieving audio Nirvana via vinyl is tantamount to invoking the black arts - or at least soliciting the services of a high priest conversent in such arcane ritual.
.. although you could simply buy one of these and have done:
https://www.thisisitstores.co.uk/cheap-record-player-with-speakers-revinyl-4-colours-all.html
£40 = job done :lol:
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 12:50
If cost were the only factor then it would be relatively straightforward - simply throw some dosh at it, satisfaction guaranteed!!
However its clear from a cursory trawl of this forum that buying the gear is just the start of it .... deducing arm mass, cartridge matching, setting overhang and VTA, RIAA correction , etc. etc. etc.
Achieving audio Nirvana via vinyl is tantamount to invoking the black arts - or at least soliciting the services of a high priest conversent in such arcane ritual.
.. although you could simply buy one of these and have done:
https://www.thisisitstores.co.uk/cheap-record-player-with-speakers-revinyl-4-colours-all.html
£40 = job done :lol:
Yes it does me me laugh when vinyl evangelists dismiss digital options such as RPi as being solely for geeky fiddlers! One man's geek is another man's .......
Geoff
Yes, it can sound better, but at a cost much higher than for a digital system. Despite claims to the contrary, only a small proportion of new music makes it to vinyl, so as a technology it is fine if you are content with limited new content.
Although, sound quality is a primary issue, one cannot discount the convenience aspects of vinyl, not least the storage problems of a large collection, with which I am very familiar.
Geoff
I have only heard one digital system that could even slightly interest me in using digital as a serious listenable form of music and that cost way more than most vinyl systems.
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 12:55
I have only heard one digital system that could even slightly interest me in using digital as a serious listenable form of music and that cost way more than most vinyl systems.
Jimbo,
I think we have already established your level of proficiency in searching for digital software. Forgive me if I suggest you may have not looked too hard for affordable quality digital hardware!
Geoff
Audiophile hearing aids. BOOM! A new hifi product for the market. I have all the good ideas me.
Right up there with carboard elephant ears...carbon fibre print of course.
Jimbo,
I think we have already established your level of proficiency in searching for digital software. Forgive me if I suggest you may have not looked too hard for affordable quality digital hardware!
Geoff
Enlighten me then Geoff. Obviously you have expert knowledge in this area?
walpurgis
18-03-2018, 13:20
Audiophile hearing aids. BOOM! A new hifi product for the market. I have all the good ideas me.
I have a feeling that's been done.
Minstrel SE
18-03-2018, 13:47
A little flabbergasted TBH at the level of hostility in your reply, I'm not criticising anyone for what they like, I'm simply just explaining what I like - why does it upset people so much if they like something different, especially if it's digital?
Oh its not hostile and Im sorry you feel like that. Its a strong argument defending my position because I wont be seen as odd for wanting some equipment and storage space for physical media.
You are hitting the buttons by saying you dont need stuff to appreciate music and trying to tell us about too much physical media for storage. Im simply pointing out that you do need stuff to appreciate music...just less of it for your logistical taste.
Its not directed solely at you. The implication through the thread is that the streamers have seen the light and all other equipment is superfluous. I dont see streaming as the only way and I dont see a problem that needs solving
I havent reached the point where the physical media has overwhelmed me so downsizing isnt an issue for me. You mention stuff and levels of storage as if it could be a problem.
Im simply saying it isnt a problem and I will let you know when it is. We can all say each to their own but there is more to be said because I find it strange that you may have no other way then streaming.
Best wishes
Martin
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 13:53
Enlighten me then Geoff. Obviously you have expert knowledge in this area?
I do not claim to be an expert, but I am certainly an informed user. I cannot know what you would consider acceptable, but I can tell you what has impressed me. Let me start with items I own.
a) Cambridge CXN streamer. Exceptionally simple user interface. Can be used with just a remote control and built in display but also through a very good app. Plays Spotify, Tidal, web radio, and digital files on a home network or simply plugged into the usb port. A complete front end for £700. Can even be used as a digital preamp with remote volume control. A very smooth analogue sounding device. Only problem I have found is some very slight veiling of fine detail, most notable at the lower frequency extremes.
b) Caiman SEG DAC with RPi3/Digione audio board running Volumio. Total cost around £350 plus another £70 for a linear power supply. This combo has replaced the Cambridge CXN in my main system. Exceptional levels of detail retrieval for the price. Frankly, I am hearing details from ripped cds that I know intimately, that I have never heard before.
c) At the budget end, a Google Chromecast Audio. Cost me £20 in PC World. Outstanding sound for the price, especially using the optical out into a good DAC. I use it in my bedroom system with Deezer to discover new music.
In terms of other equipment I have been impressed by but do not own, I would highlight the SOtM range. If I was not relocating overseas shortly I would probably have gone for this or its lower price option. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCoFIdPLcUk
So there you have it. Options ranging from a few quid to a grand or two!
Geoff
Sherwood
18-03-2018, 14:00
Oh its not hostile and Im sorry you feel like that. Its a strong argument defending my position because I wont be seen as odd for wanting some equipment and storage space for physical media.
Its not directed solely at you. The implication through the thread is that the streamers have seen the light and all other equipment is superfluous I dont see streaming as the only way.
There is nothing written that is hostile. I havent reached the point where the physical media has overwhelmed me so downsizing isnt an issue for me. You mention stuff and levels of storage as if it could be a problem.
Im simply saying it isnt a problem and I will let you know when it is.
Best wishes
Martin
I think some people have forgotten the title of this thread. It is not who hates vinyl and who dismisses vinyl as a viable quality source. Inevitably, the bulk of responses will be from those who have migrated to digital streaming because they have found the quality (and yes, the convenience) to be of a level they can live with. As an original cd hater for many years, I have begrudgingly come to concede that digital streaming has reached a quality threshold that I can more than happily live with!
Geoff
Minstrel SE
18-03-2018, 14:12
Yes but Ive not really even mentioned sound quality yet. I enjoy dabbling with various pieces of equipment and holding a record I have found in town.
When Tim says he has some good art on the walls, he fails to see the implications and subtext behind that statement. Its called pushing the buttons of debate or light argument
The implication from the minimalists is they have a lovely well kept home they can live in and appreciate. The implication is that Ive no room for art on the walls because I live in a clustered, dishevelled, badly organised home.
I also have some good art on the walls but I like shelving on at least one wall and some hi fi racks to store my lovely equipment on.
Heck I'm a gamer so around 10 consoles have to be stored for ready access. You would'nt want me to give up my lovely orange Japanese Gamecube with Pal internals would you? :)
I think some people have forgotten the title of this thread. It is not who hates vinyl and who dismisses vinyl as a viable quality source. Inevitably, the bulk of responses will be from those who have migrated to digital streaming because they have found the quality (and yes, the convenience) to be of a level they can live with. As an original cd hater for many years, I have begrudgingly come to concede that digital streaming has reached a quality threshold that I can more than happily live with!
Geoff
Some of us enjoy both!
Pretty up to date here digital kit and streaming wise, but you couldn’t pry my Orbe/SME V from my cold dead fingers.
It IS art...its just not on the wall. :D
For that I have my own artwork hanging up, hows that for a bit different?
... just to show that its possible to embrace vinyl AND digital AND art on the wall AND clutter :lol:
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/796/39070372510_5b277225de_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22wvSyf)clutter (https://flic.kr/p/22wvSyf) by miktec101 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138540546@N04/), on Flickr
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/796/39070372510_5b277225de_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22wvSyf)clutter (https://flic.kr/p/22wvSyf) by miktec101 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138540546@N04/), on Flickr
What have you done to that poor old Quad 33?
Since something went wrong way back and anything these days can be considered as art, I declare that I consider my shelves of vinyl and cds to be an art installation. Problem solved. The other shelf with all the dust and some Xmas cards from 2 years ago, that as well.
narabdela
18-03-2018, 16:20
... just to show that its possible to embrace vinyl AND digital AND art on the wall AND clutter :lol:
Love the Braun turntable.:thumbsup:
What have you done to that poor old Quad 33?
The 'poor old Quad 33' is in best fettle - just waiting for the weather to improve so I can respray the front panel (which did show severe signs of old age before I stripped it)
Love the Braun turntable.:thumbsup:
Cheers :) - it is indeed a belter (in both senses...)
Partial to a bit of this...
https://i.imgur.com/OHz4Nsn_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
Not so much this... :D
http://i.imgur.com/YHbTm.jpg
Not so much this... :D
http://i.imgur.com/YHbTm.jpg
Ouch!
Not so much this... :D
http://i.imgur.com/YHbTm.jpg
nasty.. a lot of weight in there
From post 133;
"It seems to be a means of access to music that has some way to go before it is settled. The options available appear an endless endless jumble and I constantly see bemused people struggling to find their way to a set-up they can use easily and understand.
No doubt some are perfectly happy, but there always seems to be an underlying and unspoken impression, to me at least, that some folk are thinking the sound is a bit of an 'also ran'. "
I agree with this - for now, but it will get better I'm sure.
Commoditisation of music; PWL and Simon Cowell deliberately chose their paths as big money making ventures, and they mark IMO a sea change from the days of individuals trying to creatively work as singer/songwriter poets.
Most do not have a serious Hi-Fi now, and I argue that that is because the music does not warrant it.
Whilst ready availability does not cause music to be bad, the individual does value more what is scarce to him, and the freely available abundance of food surely is related to the resulting obesity crisis.
The young are taught about electronic music and possibly many want to be celebrities or pop stars, rather than write anything profound. This maybe has led to an abundance of mediocrity, it being a hard long haul to be successful in say the early 70s..
Sherwood
19-03-2018, 13:49
From post 133;
"It seems to be a means of access to music that has some way to go before it is settled. The options available appear an endless endless jumble and I constantly see bemused people struggling to find their way to a set-up they can use easily and understand.
No doubt some are perfectly happy, but there always seems to be an underlying and unspoken impression, to me at least, that some folk are thinking the sound is a bit of an 'also ran'. "
I agree with this - for now, but it will get better I'm sure.
Commoditisation of music; PWL and Simon Cowell deliberately chose their paths as big money making ventures, and they mark IMO a sea change from the days of individuals trying to creatively work as singer/songwriter poets.
Most do not have a serious Hi-Fi now, and I argue that that is because the music does not warrant it.
Whilst ready availability does not cause music to be bad, the individual does value more what is scarce to him, and the freely available abundance of food surely is related to the resulting obesity crisis.
The young are taught about electronic music and possibly many want to be celebrities or pop stars, rather than write anything profound. This maybe has led to an abundance of mediocrity, it being a hard long haul to be successful in say the early 70s..
Sorry Dennis but I barely recognise anything in your posting as true. For example, many people know little about cars and regularly make poor purchasing decisions, even though there are very good models on the market at each price level. Same is true about streaming technology. Just because many people are unfamiliar or uninformed about digital streaming does not mean that there are not good products out there, even at very low prices as in the case of the Chromecast Audio. Some folk may be uncertain about streaming technology but many who have heard good implementations have adopted the technology.
The suggestion that the commodification of recorded music is a recent development is nonsense. I have already referred to the practice of Payola, but just look at the British experience in the 1950's and predatory impresarios such as Larry Parnes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Parnes who churned out a string of butch named clones long before SA&W and Simon Cowell. Recorded music has always been a commodity and consumers and performers ruthless exploited by the record companies.
I agree that most people today have not heard or invested in good quality domestic hi fi systems, but that is because music now competes with other forms of leisure time entertainment not available in earlier decades. Furthermore, modern technology allows for more selective listening of music at a time and place the user chooses. I personally can't listen to low bit rate mp3 files, but the SQ of Spotify Premium on a phone or tablet heard through a good pair of headphones and possibly a portable DAC /headphone amp is exponentially better than the majority of hi-fi systems from the "golden age" of hi fi. I say majority, because whilst there have always been good setups and equipment, but we forget that these were expensive luxuries in their days not mass-market products available to the masses. Domestic hi fi now seems to be an older person’s hobby compared to the 70’s and 80’s when was very much a young man’s hobby based upon the matching of separates. Of course, it is difficult now to contemplate the purchase of a hi-fi when you are saving like crazy for a deposit on your own home.
I will refrain from ranting on about the suggestion that increased accessibility to music diminishes the value we place on it, but try suggesting to a typical young person that they don’t value music and they will laugh at you. Music is as important to the young as it has always been. The fact that they choose to consume it in a different way is their business.
Geoff
Shovel_Knight
19-03-2018, 13:52
... just to show that its possible to embrace vinyl AND digital AND art on the wall AND clutter :lol:
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/796/39070372510_5b277225de_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22wvSyf)clutter (https://flic.kr/p/22wvSyf) by miktec101 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138540546@N04/), on Flickr
I love the whole setup, and that Braun turntable is really sweet :cool:
Telling young people exactly where they are going wrong is one of the few benefits of being old. I had to put up with it when I was young and I'm damned if these kids today are going to get away from it scot free.
Shovel_Knight
19-03-2018, 13:55
nasty.. a lot of weight in there
That Expedit was oriented incorrectly. I’m pretty sure Ikea mentions that if you’re going to put heavy stuff in it, the long dividers have to be horizontal, not vertical.
Sherwood
19-03-2018, 14:07
That Expedit was oriented incorrectly. I’m pretty sure Ikea mentions that if you’re going to put heavy stuff in it, the long dividers have to be horizontal, not vertical.
Agreed. I also ensure that I apply PVA adhesive when the loading is extreme as in this case.
Geoff
.... we forget that these were expensive luxuries in their days not mass-market products available to the masses.
Agree with the entirety of your response to Pharos but that line really caught my eye as something that can't be emphasised enough.
Living through the 60s and 70s, as I did, on close to bare minimum wages, most even reasonably 'hifi' gear was way beyond the means of many ... and that which was reasonably affordable was mostly shite - poorly manufactured and terrible SQ. The only way I could acquire anything reasonable was either (very) second hand or build it myself from kits.
A quick Google search reveals that the now much loved Quad 33/303 combo cost just short of £100 when it came out - which was the equivalent of a full month's wage for the average earner at that time. When I first saw and heard the combo in the early 70s I was instantly smitten - but it would be another 20 years before I finally had a set of my own.
The situation now is incomparable if you look at the wealth of very good gear available for what is effectively peanuts (viz PI/Dac combo....)
Sherwood
19-03-2018, 16:06
Agree with the entirety of your response to Pharos but that line really caught my eye as something that can't be emphasised enough.
Living through the 60s and 70s, as I did, on close to bare minimum wages, most even reasonably 'hifi' gear was way beyond the means of many ... and that which was reasonably affordable was mostly shite - poorly manufactured and terrible SQ. The only way I could acquire anything reasonable was either (very) second hand or build it myself from kits.
A quick Google search reveals that the now much loved Quad 33/303 combo cost just short of £100 when it came out - which was the equivalent of a full month's wage for the average earner at that time. When I first saw and heard the combo in the early 70s I was instantly smitten - but it would be another 20 years before I finally had a set of my own.
The situation now is incomparable if you look at the wealth of very good gear available for what is effectively peanuts (viz PI/Dac combo....)
I was lucky in that I had a full grant when I went to Uni in London in 1977. I was also fortunate in that I could find reasonably well paid work to supplement my grant and worked through the year not only in the Summer. It allowed my to buy a pair of brand new Rogers LS3/5a speakers for £150. It was a real stretch for me, as this is probably equivalent to close to £2000 today.
Geoff
True, I have kit here that would have cost me six month's wages if I'd bought it brand new in the early 'Nineties.
I don't know where the myth started that multitudes of people had proper hi-fi systems in the 1970s; a lot of people didn't even have a telly or a washing machine back then, let alone a decent record deck with separate amp and speakers. That was exclusively for wealthy professionals, diy-ers and students blowing a whole term's grant in one go then living on toast and cereal for 4 months.
Sherwood
19-03-2018, 16:09
Telling young people exactly where they are going wrong is one of the few benefits of being old. I had to put up with it when I was young and I'm damned if these kids today are going to get away from it scot free.
Clearly being told you were a young no good layabout with no taste in music or anything else worked for your elders! :)
Clearly being told you were a young no good layabout with no taste in music or anything else worked for your elders! :)
They loved it. And so will I :)
Sherwood
19-03-2018, 16:18
True, I have kit here that would have cost me six month's wages if I'd bought it brand new in the early 'Nineties.
I don't know where the myth started that multitudes of people had proper hi-fi systems in the 1970s; a lot of people didn't even have a telly or a washing machine back then, let alone a decent record deck with separate amp and speakers. That was exclusively for wealthy professionals, diy-ers and students blowing a whole term's grant in one go then living on toast and cereal for 4 months.
Some of the pompous elitism expressed by a few forum members really winds me up. My parents were first generation immigrants to the UK (Dublin and St. Helier, Jersey) in the mid 50's and we really struggled. My father, a chef, had two jobs, and would come home on his bike for a couple of hours kip between jobs. Despite that, he wa a big music lover and our sole consumer luxury at home (aside from a tv) was a radiogram. Access to high quality music in the home is a very recent development. Even now, the notion of spending hundreds yet alone thousands of pounds on a music system is a bewildering concept for many!
Geoff
I love the whole setup, and that Braun turntable is really sweet :cool:
Cheers :) ... a better view of it below - I found it in a junk shop in Amsterdam in the early 80s, been in fairly regular use since and only ever needed a new piece of string (no, really) :lol:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4648/38734692310_1925a5e042_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/221RqwA)Braun PS500 (https://flic.kr/p/221RqwA) by miktec101 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138540546@N04/), on Flickr
Shovel_Knight
19-03-2018, 17:43
A true classic. I wanted to get one, but was put off by horror stories about shipping: apparently those Brauns don’t travel well because of fluid-damped suspension.
A true classic. I wanted to get one, but was put off by horror stories about shipping: apparently those Brauns don’t travel well because of fluid-damped suspension.
Can imaging shipping is very pricey - they weigh a ton !! The fluid damping is fairly robust though, mine has had some fairly rough treatment during the many moves I've made since first getting it but the suspension has outlived it all. I had it open about a year or two ago (to repair the string ...) and noticed there had been a very slight leak from one of the chambers. I tightened up the circlip and last time I looked (a few months back) it seemed OK. The suspension is one of the best things of this deck and another design aspect testifying to the genius of Dieter Rams so I'm hoping it lasts me out ;)
Could go on about the deck for ages but conscious this might be thread crap .... might start a new one instead.
Minstrel SE
19-03-2018, 18:06
Its not elitism Geoff. My Dad worked very hard as a service engineer and we didnt have a lot of money. The radiogram in the house was well iffy though and there are no two ways about that. I still have nightmares about that piece of junk. All cabinet with appointment to the queen logos and no real substance inside. The amp thudded on with a pop, boomed away though poor speakers and it always seemed one short step from failing. I think it was repaired more than once. It was that sort of crap that gave the Japanese a clear run.
My parents like many people were not music or equipment lovers. Rigonda record players were scattered around the extended family because they werent too bothered. Some Scotland The What record would go on at Christmas or Rebecca are you better. My Grandad was a Doctor...two big houses.... boats.... but I never saw him with any music equipment apart from an old Rigonda.
My Uncle who is a high up manager/scientist for Blue Circle peaked at a 505, Nad and AR 18s but at least he went that far with a good starter set up. It doesnt take a massive amount of money or imagination to start getting interested in better equipment
Most people dont have a good hi fi system because they are not really interested or have other priorities. Im not sure it is all about money. Ive seen people who worked for minimum wage or on the dole that have a house full of Musical Fidelity X tubes and leather sofas. I think its more a question of the priorities placed on things.
At least Ive made some effort to see what Joe Ackroyd and Roy Gandy have been up to. I want more than an Amstrad midi system because thats important to me. It doesnt have to break the bank
Sherwood
19-03-2018, 18:40
Its not elitism Geoff. My Dad worked very hard as a service engineer and we didnt have a lot of money. The radiogram in the house was well iffy though and there is no two ways about that. I still have nightmares about that piece of junk. All cabinet with appointment to the queen logos and no real substance inside. The amp thudded on with a pop, boomed away though poor speakers and it always seemed a short step from failing
My parents like many people were not music or equipment lovers. Rigonda record players were scattered around the extended family because they werent too bothered. Some Scotland the what record would go on at Christmas or Rebecca are you better. My Grandad was a Doctor and I never saw him with any music equipment apart from an old Rigonda.
My Uncle who is a high up manager/scientist for Blue Circle peaked at a 505, Nad and AR 18s but at least he went that far with a good starter set up. It doesnt take a massive amount of money or imagination to start getting interested in better equipment
Most people dont have a good hi fi system because they are not really interested or have other priorities. Im not sure it is all about money. Ive seen people who worked for minimum wage or on the dole that have a house full of Musical Fidelity X tubes and leather sofas. I think its more a question of the priorities placed on things.
At least Ive made some effort to see what Joe Ackroyd and Roy Gandy ahve been up to. I want more than an Amstrad midi system because thats important to me. It doesnt have to break the bank
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am all for people making budget decisions that maximise their utility or welfare (yes, I am an economist). We all have different tastes and preferences. Personally, I have little interest in cars, other than as a means of getting from a to b, though I do enjoy driving, especially long road trips in distant places. Hifi, along with travel, and photography are the main targets of my leisure spending. Although I still have a high quality SLR kit with multiple bodies and lenses, I find that a good quality compact digital that is easier to carry, gets more use than bulky SLRs that mark you out as a tourist rather than a traveller.
I invested heavily in a good hifi whilst at uni in the late 70s because I was fortunate to find very well paid part time employment in London. I had a Dual turntable, Rogers A75 MkII amp, and Rogers LS3/5a speakers. It was a huge investment for me, and a conscious decision to use the money for Hi fi rather than for other leisure activities. I have never regretted that investment but have always recognised that I was fortunate to be able to afford to make it. Over the years I have been able to upgrade individual components (e.g. A Rega 3 and then Linn LP12 for the Dual) but I have always been cautious in my spending (even though I have been fortunate in terms of my career and earnings). So I can very well understand why individuals would wish to spend what others see as a disproportionate amount of their disposable income on high quality components. Good luck to them and I hope that they get maximum and long term enjoyment from their spending. I equally understand why so many people these days are unable or unwilling to invest in a good quality domestic hi fi. Good luck to them too. How they choose to spend their money is for them alone.
What does offend me is a small group of AoS members who seem to sneer on the choices made by those on smaller budgets. I recall a recent posting, I can't remember the thread, that used the phrase "unwashed masses". Appalling elitism by any measure. We are not all able to contemplate the purchase of components with 4 digit price tags and it offends me greatly when smug self-satisfied forum members seem to take pleasure in denigrating the budget-constrained systems that less affluent members take such pride in. Surely, this forum is more than a "dick waving" exercise!
Geoff
What does offend me is a small group of AoS members who seem to sneer on the choices made by those on smaller budgets. I recall a recent posting, I can't remember the thread, that used the phrase "unwashed masses". Appalling elitism by any measure. We are not all able to contemplate the purchase of components with 4 digit price tags and it offends me greatly when smug self-satisfied forum members seem to take pleasure in denigrating the budget-constrained systems that less affluent members take such pride in. Surely, this forum is more than a "dick waving" exercise!
Geoff
Geoff, there really is no-one on here who is anything like that. Are you sure you did not take a jokey comment out of context? You're more likely to get a gentle ribbing for spending loads of money on here, not get grief for being on a tight budget. And if you are on a tight budget you'll get good advice on how to maximise it because a lot of us have had to do that ourselves. So I just don't get it.
Sherwood
19-03-2018, 18:56
Geoff, there really is no-one on here who is anything like that. Are you sure you did not take a jokey comment out of context? You're more likely to get a gentle ribbing for spending loads of money on here, not get grief for being on a tight budget. And if you are on a tight budget you'll get good advice on how to maximise it because a lot of us have had to do that ourselves. So I just don't get it.
No, quite sure! I do have a sense of humour, even if it is at my own expense!
Geoff
I stand by my support of the post I quoted, and also the further statements I have made.
Sherwood
19-03-2018, 19:56
I stand by my support of the post I quoted, and also the further statements I have made.
Dennis,
we are going to have to agree to disagree, but I do wonder how many digital streaming systems you have heard in person. I started as an avid vinyl supporter and was a very late and reluctant adopter of cd. However, digital streaming, especially of one's own ripped files has now superseded early cd technology and I would suggest that you would have to spend several £k on a CDP to get close to the leading edge streaming solutions now available.
I cannot see how you can refute my observations about the commodification of recorded music. When do you think it was not a commodity subject to marketing and driven by profit maximisation rather than a concern for SQ and aesthetic values?
Geoff
I have heard few streaming examples, but my opinion is based on observing others' reactions to their setups, many of which are on this forum.
I think you are over extending my statements. I agree that music has always been a commodity, but the people I cited grasped that and markedly took over the market with their business venture, to me a marked increase in the process.
Mikeandvan
19-03-2018, 23:31
Well, one week on, and glad to report that I am very happy with this new format, ok new to me! What I find so wonderful is being able to play music through my hifi that I was once only able to listen to on my laptop! You know when you're browsing YouTube, looking for old classics (whatever your old classics are). The SQ is quite stunning considering I am at present live streaming from iTunes, I still haven't got around to buying a usb cable. Replacing the utterly crap standard interconnect (thin black cable, red/white plugs) with a Chorus one courtesy of a fellow AOS member has made a large improvement, needless to say! What else is so great is I can listen to records that I have sold, listening to them now I wonder why, its like I never sold them, really £10 a month, its incredible. I look forward to trying other streaming services, and may'be further down the road, refining my streaming set up, if I choose to. Of course I still haven't tried downloading music files, saving them and replaying them, is that better than live streaming? I haven't yet made a comparison with my CDP - a rather lovely Pioneer PD 8700 - this was quite a step up from a Sony 715, I need to buy another quality interconnect so I can do that. Streaming has also drawn my attention to my vinyl set up - which seems a bit harsh with treble, trouble is I don't know what to try concerning that, subject of a new thread may'be. Listening to the same music on vinyl and live streaming, vinyl edges it in pace and solidity, though its early days yet. At the moment just loving hearing music properly rather than on a crappy laptop!
Good stuff. Welcome to the club[emoji23]
Sherwood
20-03-2018, 08:14
I have heard few streaming examples, but my opinion is based on observing others' reactions to their setups, many of which are on this forum.
I think you are over extending my statements. I agree that music has always been a commodity, but the people I cited grasped that and markedly took over the market with their business venture, to me a marked increase in the process.
Dennis,
You need to hear things first hand. Even a £30 Chromecast Audio can produce a quality of sound that will pleasantly surprise. If you can borrow a Raspberry Pi with one of the better audio boards (spdif or dac) I predict you will be converted.
Geoff
You seem to make so may assumptions Geoff.
Subjectivism is fine provided that it is not embraced in such a way that it precludes accurate perception of what is stated.
My friend brought his Mac down and we streamed Tidal and Spotify some time ago, but assessment was mudded by a recent change in speakers from my own to ADAM Gammas, and it was pretty good.
I'm not against streaming at all and can see many advantages, but as the poster stated and copied in my quote of post 133, I am going to wait a while until it settles out a bit.
I also have to reconsider purchase of a better TV to allow all my computer work to be done in the lounge and facilitate concerts and lectures, with the much better sound quality there on the system now with ADAM Betas.
A true classic. I wanted to get one, but was put off by horror stories about shipping: apparently those Brauns don’t travel well because of fluid-damped suspension.
You have PM ;)
Sherwood
20-03-2018, 12:56
You seem to make so may assumptions Geoff.
Subjectivism is fine provided that it is not embraced in such a way that it precludes accurate perception of what is stated.
My friend brought his Mac down and we streamed Tidal and Spotify some time ago, but assessment was mudded by a recent change in speakers from my own to ADAM Gammas, and it was pretty good.
I'm not against streaming at all and can see many advantages, but as the poster stated and copied in my quote of post 133, I am going to wait a while until it settles out a bit.
I also have to reconsider purchase of a better TV to allow all my computer work to be done in the lounge and facilitate concerts and lectures, with the much better sound quality there on the system now with ADAM Betas.
Dennis,
I am making assertions based upon my subjective experience as an owner and user of several streaming components, and my first hand experience in listening to several other systems.
These assertions are based upon my assumption that you have not personally heard the potential of an RPi based system playing lossless files. If that assumption is wrong I stand corrected.
I also understand that you may believe the technology is unstable and for that reason, and others (i.e. other demands on your budget), have chosen to delay a decision to invest in streaming. The reality is that technology is always in flux but that entry into the streaming market is relatively low cost with a CCA or RPi costing only £30 or c. £100 respectively.
I do not understand your first sentence. "Perception" is about how we interpret reality through our sensory facilities and beliefs. Subjectivism is the theory that perception (or consciousness) is paramount and that there is no absolute reality, only that "formed" by perception in the individual consciousness.
Geoff
Shovel_Knight
20-03-2018, 13:28
You have PM ;)
Thanks! :cool:
eldarvanyar
06-04-2018, 08:31
I rip all of my CDs to the NAS drive, I don’t have a CD player anymore. The Raspberry Pi3 into my USB audio interface with balanced outputs is almost a perfect setup for me. I still have my 401 though, it just sounds so good.
Can you say what usb audio interface with balanced outputs you are using?
Thanks
paulf-2007
06-04-2018, 10:15
Predominantly use Spotify as a means to find/identify new music to buy (sometimes on vinyl, other times on CD) and to avoid buying stuff I know I won't play.
It's worked pretty well for me so far.
Moi aussi
paulf-2007
06-04-2018, 10:19
I know these streaming companies claim 40 million songs, or whatever their claim is, but do they really have everything? Aren’t there some old rare records in your 40 plus year collection that are not found on streaming sites? I’ve got some rare albums I’d be shocked to see on a streaming site, but maybe they could surprise me?
And sound quality is a strange thing. My CD player plays clearer, and cleaner, more detail, more dynamics! Anyone hearing the same 20 seconds of a song on both would say the CD player blows the vinyl away! But somehow the vinyl playback still wins in the magic department. It has a quality I find hard to explain, the rhythm draws me in, more of the, “foot tapping magic”, from vinyl, I have yet to hear any digital source to match it. And my vinyl playback system is nice but far from top drawer. Perhaps I just haven’t heard the right streaming setup yet?
Russell
Spotify for one don't have everything. Sometimes I will see something on eBay or elsewhere and want to hear it and cannot find it to hear on Spotify.
paulf-2007
06-04-2018, 14:21
There is a flip side to the statement "not everything is available for streaming" in that there is a lot of OOP music available, or music that is so hard to come by it sells for hundreds of pounds on places like Amazon Marketplace, or eBay that you can access from streaming services. It's a double edged sword.
My story is an interesting one (been into FBA since 2011 and sold my CDP then) in that I was looking to upgrade my CDP and stumbled upon how good file based audio can sound by chance. I'm lucky that I used to work in IT, so I'm comfortable around computers and can build my own - I've tried/heard all sorts, laptops, custom servers, bespoke units you buy off the shelf and stripped everything unnecessary out of a Windows O/S and edited the registry. But in all honesty you don't need to go that far, at the moment I'm using a laptop with a tweaked Windows O/S, JRiver and Spotify.
As someone who considers themselves a music fan first, with a passing interest in being an audiophile, file based audio and streaming is the best thing to ever happen and as Jerry says, it has changed my musical life. Not just for convenience (I have over 4,000 CDs - all ripped to FLAC), but superior sound quality at a very reasonable price.
Here's a thought, I went to the Bristol Hi-Fi show recently (and a high-end Bowers & Wilkins/CHORD demo last night). Hardly any demonstrations involved a CD player, it was dominated by file based audio and vinyl playback - I can count on one hand the number playing CDs, it was all Apple laptops/Mac Minis (some Windows PC's) Roon based systems, Auralic file servers/streamers or some other in house music server. Roon/TIDAL was the software of choice for pretty much all, if they weren't using something bespoke to the player. I saw many systems costing upwards of £50K running from a Macbook. Yesterday's demo had a £60K B&W/CHORD system fed from a £2,000 Innous music server. That to me speaks volumes about how highly regarded file based audio is now - you can get so much for your money, in both value and sound quality from file based audio.
I still buy CDs, but don't have a CDP, they get ripped to FLAC immediately. The head of Polydor music claims that 90% of CDs sold these days don't even get played, they are ripped to some type of music file immediately. I have just bought a turntable, but that's just for fun - my serious music listening comes from a music server or the internet ;)
My equipment hasn't really changed that much in relation to sources, I sold my CDP but bought a DAC and have a music server and a turntable. So I've actually got more gear!
I use an HP notebook Windows 10, Spotify into a Dac. What is the purpose of jriver? Is that for ripping cd's
I use an HP notebook Windows 10, Spotify into a Dac. What is the purpose of jriver? Is that for ripping cd's
jriver is a full program for ripping, storing, filing and playing, plus it can be used as a server. great value too and very customizable, if thats a word. lol
has a very decent ipad remote app too.
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