NOS DACs

[dwhistance]

Hello, I'd like some advice/thoughts on NOS DAC's please? My current DAC is a Mytek Brooklyn with an external power supply which is OK but I'm looking for something more "musical". From reading I suppose I am most interested in the SW1X DAC's, AudioNote's and perhaps the DDDAC. I doubt that anyone has heard all three but any comparisons/thoughts you could give me would be very welcome.

David Whistance

[Clive]

Any DAC from Metrum....just pick your price point.

[Boyse6748]

David,

Unless I’ve read your post incorrectly. Are you inferring that the Mytek Brooklyn DAC is not musical? I only ask, as I’m about to get this DAC via another forum member.

Obviously, I understand that there are far more expensive DAC’s available, that may be better than the Mytek but I’m just it bit concerned I may be making a mistake.

Any words of wisdom?

Peter


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ijrussell]

Hello, I'd like some advice/thoughts on NOS DAC's please? My current DAC is a Mytek Brooklyn with an external power supply which is OK but I'm looking for something more "musical". From reading I suppose I am most interested in the SW1X DAC's, AudioNote's and perhaps the DDDAC. I doubt that anyone has heard all three but any comparisons/thoughts you could give me would be very welcome.

I have heard examples of all three in a variety of systems. I own a couple of DDDACs (plus a Bryston BDA-2 and DiDiT DAC212SE) and have owned a couple of AN DACs (2.1 and 4.1LE). I prefer the less in-your-face presentation of NOS DACs but I know a lot of people that prefer the accuracy of studio DACs like the Mytek.

[dwhistance]

Peter,

I'm sorry I used the wrong words. The Brooklyn isn't unmusical, its actually very good, its just that I'd prefer something a bit more analog. A DAC is never going to sound like my Garrard but that is the direction I'd like to move in. The Brooklyn is undoubtedly accurate, the Garrard certainly isn't, I just happen to like its presentation and the way it colours the sound!

David Whistance

[Gazjam]

If your looking to get analogue sounding digital can I recommend PS Audio ?
Recently picked up one of their Directstream dacs and frankly I've not listened to vinyl since I've got it.
I have a pretty decent turntable setup...

Bit more expensive but worth pushing the boat out for, if your looking for a non studio sounding dac...just puts musicians in the same room.
Love mine, had to sell a kidney to get one though.

[Ninanina]

David the only one I have experience of was the Audio Note DAC One 1X Signature

I owned it for years and it is certainly a superb sounding Dac and, yes, 'musical' sounding is about right

Very highly recommended if you can get hold of one

[Ninanina]

Just had a thought.....

You could also perhaps try the little Chord Hugo as it sounds amazing. Ok it's not NOS

I had one and while I loved the sound it produced I found the UI infuriating but if you can get past that it's very good indeed

[Boyse6748]

Just had a thought.....

You could also perhaps try the little Chord Hugo as it sounds amazing. Ok it's not NOS

I had one and while I loved the sound it produced I found the UI infuriating but if you can get past that it's very good indeed

Thank you! Sound advice indeed!!.

I already have two DACs (via the Macintosh CD 550 & the Ifl black box ) just looking for something that might knock my socks off !

Perhaps the Mytek ain’t it!!

But who knows?.?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pieoftheday]

I tried a lite ah DAC and a muse nos dac,looking back I found them a bit ZZzzzzzz

[Rob1969]

I have an Audio Note 0.1x DAC and it is superb. Very analogue sounding.

Have had Chord and Audiolab DACs in my system and none of them come close to the AN DAC.

[Yomanze]

For me there's a naturalness that comes with a multibit DAC with no digital filtering / oversampling (NOS). The issue with NOS DACs tends to be at the top end, which is rolled off (dark tonal balance), as well as overall refinement at the top end. It's more sins of omission though, unless you are a detail freak. However, there are some NOS DACs that are fantastically open and resolved at the top end, like my Audial Model S. Audio Note DACs are more coloured in comparison, and TDA1543 DACs, like the Audiosector DAC I owned, just don't have the resolution at the top end. Doesn't stop them being non-fatiguing though. There are also some new discrete NOS DACs from Soekris & EC Designs, and the new Metrum Amethyst which are very interesting.

...if you want, you can also use a computer setup to do the oversampling in DSP, I experimented with this, 2x oversampling up to 88.2kHz sounded most natural to me, and yes there was a tad more at the top end, but in the long term I preferred no oversampling.

[dwhistance]

Many thanks everyone for your comments. As I expected there is a range of opinions but quite a few in favour of the Audionote DAC's and also Metrum. I'll try to hear a few and see how I feel about them. I'll report back when I have made my mind up. Just a quick question for ijrussell, you have heard all three makes I originally listed, which of them, or which models, do you prefer?

David Whistance

[George47]

Hello, I'd like some advice/thoughts on NOS DAC's please? My current DAC is a Mytek Brooklyn with an external power supply which is OK but I'm looking for something more "musical". From reading I suppose I am most interested in the SW1X DAC's, AudioNote's and perhaps the DDDAC. I doubt that anyone has heard all three but any comparisons/thoughts you could give me would be very welcome.

David Whistance

David,

What I coincidence I have just completed a review of the SW1X, an AN DAC2.1x (and I used a Metrum). Surprising winner.

http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/spdif-dac-reviews/sw1x-dac-ii-special/

[Yomanze]

Interesting review, the Audio Note 4.1, mentioned as better than the other units in that review, doesn’t sound as good as the Audial Model S though, unless you like a bit of added warmth and added bloom to the sound.

[ijrussell]

Many thanks everyone for your comments. As I expected there is a range of opinions but quite a few in favour of the Audionote DAC's and also Metrum. I'll try to hear a few and see how I feel about them. I'll report back when I have made my mind up. Just a quick question for ijrussell, you have heard all three makes I originally listed, which of them, or which models, do you prefer?

That’s an impossible question to answer as they are all fantastic in the right systems. As a general rule with valve output DACs, spending more money gets you a less characterful and better sound and they work best with valve amplifiers. You really need to find a way to listen to a range of DACs, ideally in your system, to give you a better idea of what suits and don’t get hung up on NOS over other types. There are loads of great sounding DACs that aren’t in your face. Others to consider include Border Patrol, Aqua La Voce and Audiobyte Black Dragon plus Metrum, Lindemann and Exogal. We’ve never been so spoiled with great DACs.

[jusbe]

There are loads of great sounding DACs that aren’t in your face. Others to consider include Border Patrol, Aqua La Voce and Audiobyte Black Dragon plus Metrum, Lindemann and Exogal. We’ve never been so spoiled with great DACs.

That's true. I'm not looking for a DAC at the moment but if I was, I would also include the strangely named Denafrips Terminator (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/denafrips/1.html) on my audition / consider list, out of interest.

[dwhistance]

ljrussell - Thank you thats good advice and exactly what I was going to do.

George 47 - Thank you, I must admit I had seen the review which, not surprisingly given your conclusions, has a link on the SW1X website. I must say I don't envy you the job of reviewing hi-fi equipment however appealing it might seem at first glance - I have neither the words or most probably the hearing to do the equipment justice.

David Whistance

[George47]

ljrussell - Thank you thats good advice and exactly what I was going to do.

George 47 - Thank you, I must admit I had seen the review which, not surprisingly given your conclusions, has a link on the SW1X website. I must say I don't envy you the job of reviewing hi-fi equipment however appealing it might seem at first glance - I have neither the words or most probably the hearing to do the equipment justice.

David Whistance

David: I am always surprised at how easy people actually find it to hear how good an audio system is. The trick seems to be to stop behaving like a reviewer/geek and analyse the sound; pellucid high frequencies, clear bass etc. just relax into the music. Does it sound like real people making real music, even from studio music. It does not matter if you can't express it, if it 'works' then it is good. Go with your gut, after listening to a lot of your favourite tracks.

[dsyzling]

If your looking to get analogue sounding digital can I recommend PS Audio ?
Recently picked up one of their Directstream dacs and frankly I've not listened to vinyl since I've got it.
I have a pretty decent turntable setup...

Bit more expensive but worth pushing the boat out for, if your looking for a non studio sounding dac...just puts musicians in the same room.
Love mine, had to sell a kidney to get one though.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this dac - don't want to hijack this thread, willing to discuss over PM. Dacs I would be considering would be something Audio Note, Border Patrol - but concerned about the flexibility and inputs - for both of those, Yggdrasil just because of a non NOS but R2R implementation and of course the DirectStream. The DirectStream is more than I was willing to spend but what is attractive is the flexibility of being a streamer and dac in one - I can forget about streamer alternatives and go with 2 box (dac/amp) solution (assuming I use the Bridge II board). Possibly I'd downsize to the Junior but would be interested on your thoughts.

[montesquieu]

If your priority is sound over features then an Audio Note 2.1x and upwards is a no-brainier.

[montesquieu]

David,

What I coincidence I have just completed a review of the SW1X, an AN DAC2.1x (and I used a Metrum). Surprising winner.

http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/spdif-dac-reviews/sw1x-dac-ii-special/

Didn't tally in the least with my experience George. I'm going to say no more than that.

[sjs]

I have an old AN DAC which I have rebuilt with revised valve stage and PSU, but must admit that I have often been tempted by the AN Kits 4.1

http://www.ankaudiokits.com/e-shop3/ank-audio-kits-product-range/digital-to-analogue-converters-dacs/dac-4.1-limited-edition-triple-c-core.html

especially at the offer price

[User211]

In many ways recommending a DAC is a complete waste of time.

There are just too many variables for it to make sense.

1) Listener preferences.
2) The frequency response and many other technical differences between one system installation and another.
3) The fact that even DACs from various manufacturers change over time in terms of hardware content and other unpublished design changes.
4) Valve DACs are particularly variable and a poor choice of valve in one DAC of the same model can be a huge differentiator against the same DAC with a great valve choice.
5) Even cheap DACs can outperform very expensive ones on certain tracks.
6) If the reviewer's limited selection of review tracks tips the balance in favour of one DAC over another in a review we have a "suspect evaluation" of which DAC is really the superior one.

etc etc...

So basically, it's all bullshit:) But really, if you haven't sussed that by now...

I remember being quite shocked when I heard Tom's DAC 4.1 (kit) after getting to know Kevin F's (real) DAC 4.1. Entirely different beasts, with Tom's being a lot cleaner and Kevin's being a lot more fruity and "inventive", shall we say. Oddly, I liked both, in their own ways.

Feeling pretty sceptical today...;):lol:

[George47]

Didn't tally in the least with my experience George. I'm going to say no more than that.

Go on Tom give me your order of preference: Mine was SW1X, AN2.1x, Metrum and everything else.

[Gazjam]

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this dac - don't want to hijack this thread, willing to discuss over PM. Dacs I would be considering would be something Audio Note, Border Patrol - but concerned about the flexibility and inputs - for both of those, Yggdrasil just because of a non NOS but R2R implementation and of course the DirectStream. The DirectStream is more than I was willing to spend but what is attractive is the flexibility of being a streamer and dac in one - I can forget about streamer alternatives and go with 2 box (dac/amp) solution (assuming I use the Bridge II board). Possibly I'd downsize to the Junior but would be interested on your thoughts.

Hi Darren,
happy to have a chat about the Directstream over PM.

Never heard anything like this in my life, in making recorded music sound like real people playing together and in your room, it out “analogues” my Michell Orbe/SME V/Dynavector XX2.

Takes months from new to show what it can really do, was initially disappointed but just kept getting better and better.
an astonishing piece of kit.
The Jr shares the same Ted Smith FPGA DNA so its a great choice.

[Jimbo]

I am sure the Directstream is a very good DAC indeed and probably trounces NOS DACS, any of which I would be very surprised sounded anything like analogue!

If you really want to hear a DAC that you would swear sounds analogue try listening to a Chord DAVE especially with a blu2 m-scaler. This is the first and only DAC I have heard that I would say sounds really analogue and betters vinyl with an almost mastertape style presentation. Yes it's expensive but it is stunningly good and does not sound digital at all. If it's an analogue sound you are after from a DAC then try and get to listen to one.

[Gazjam]

I am sure the Directstream is a very good DAC indeed and probably trounces NOS DACS, any of which I would be very surprised sounded anything like analogue!

If you really want to hear a DAC that you would swear sounds analogue try listening to a Chord DAVE especially with a blu2 m-scaler. This is the first and only DAC I have heard that I would say sounds really analogue and betters vinyl with an almost mastertape style presentation. Yes it's expensive but it is stunningly good and does not sound digital at all. If it's an analogue sound you are after from a DAC then try and get to listen to one.

Love to have heard a Dave dac James, a DCS Vivaldi stack as well.
Linn, Naim dacs etc..not so much.

Couldn’t have afforded Dave anyway, only so many organs you can flog without it affecting your health!

Not spinned my vinyl rig for some time now, which is NOT a good thing considering that as dust collectors go its not my cheapest investment!
Steve Floydroid mentioned a hifi get together recently I was interested in, (need to know basis) if that happens happy to bring my Dac along.

[struth]

Love to have heard a Dave dac James.
Couldn’t have afforded one anyway, only so many organs you can flog without it affecting your health!

Not spinned my vinyl rig for some time now, which is NOT a good thing considering that as dust collectors go its not my cheapest investment!
Steve Floydroid mentioned a hifi get together recently I was interested in, (need to know basis) if that happens happy to bring my Dac along.

get that vinyl spinning Gary man.. its a great rig

[Jimbo]

Love to have heard a Dave dac James, a DCS Vivaldi stack as well.
Linn, Naim dacs etc..not so much.

Couldn’t have afforded Dave anyway, only so many organs you can flog without it affecting your health!

Not spinned my vinyl rig for some time now, which is NOT a good thing considering that as dust collectors go its not my cheapest investment!
Steve Floydroid mentioned a hifi get together recently I was interested in, (need to know basis) if that happens happy to bring my Dac along.

A get together would be great Gary, would be really good to see folk.

I really wish I could afford DAVE too, once heard it damages your brain, you feel your hearing has been exposed to another level of audio sound altogether. It is super smooth, staggeringly detailed but musical and totally non fatiguing. But what impresses most is how analogue it sounds.

[Bigman80]

What strikes me as funny, is how every one of us playing with DACs, want it to sound more Analogue. I already have analogue lol

[walpurgis]

DAC's can never sound analogue. They are digital! :)

But I do know what people mean. Many DAC's sound a bit lean and 'in yer face'. Fortunately mine don't.

[struth]

I think the word is misused. Non-fatiguing would maybe be better. Many digital systems tire your brain quickly. Maybe the brain needs to work harder with them. No doubt vinyl has stamina for longer listens. Easier on the mind

[Bigman80]

Yep, Grant, Geoff, I think you're right!

[jandl100]

What strikes me as funny, is how every one of us playing with DACs, want it to sound more Analogue. I already have analogue lol

Not me, guv'nor. ;)

If I want my music to sound analog I'll eat some Rice Krispies while listening to streamed audio. :lol:

Anyway, you can get bright, screechy and tiring vinyl playback in just the same way as you can get warm and cuddly digital.
All options are available. :)

[jandl100]

I've limited experience with NOS DACs, but my most recent example was the DAC3 by Starting Point Systems in France.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-SPDIF-Non-Oversampling-NOS-DAC-TDA1543-DIR9001-2x9V-NiMH-powers-from-USB/202291330659?hash=item2f1980be63:g:Ty0AAOSwk1JWcsf 8

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Ty0AAOSwk1JWcsf8/s-l500.jpg

They typically seem to sell on eBay auction for around £100, which is excellent vfm in my view.

I really liked it - but yes, quite a bit rolled off at the top with a meaty midrange and upper bass, and well defined imaging.
Not the most startlingly dynamic or exciting sound - and it doesn't scintillate with detail - but very "musical" imo, in an analog kind of way. ;)

[Jimbo]

A DAC's job is not to reconstruct the digital data into analogue but to recreate the original analogue waveform captured via a digital recording. As we hear in analogue, DAC's will never sound natural or truly "listenable" until they perform this function perfectly. They still have a way to go but the technology and chips which the DAC's are built around are still the limiting factor. I am encouraged that they are getting better as we have all heard through the evolution of digital audio in the last 30 years.

However DAC design is very complicated and there are not that many folk out there who can design them, least of all make them sound musical.:)

[Macca]

DAC's can never sound analogue. They are digital! :)



They just output electricity with a varying voltage. Exactly like a phono stage, or a tape deck does. Why would eschewing oversampling make this sound 'more analogue?' (That's rhetorical because I know the answer will be 'It just does'). In a blind comparison between an unfamiliar nos dac and an unfamiliar oversampling dac would you really be able to tell which was which?

If you want the sound of vinyl, listen to vinyl records!

[walpurgis]

In a blind comparison between an unfamiliar nos dac and an unfamiliar oversampling dac would you really be able to tell which was which?

Good question.

[Yomanze]

Good question.

Yes. I used to do blind tests with my DAC in NOS vs 2x oversampling (88.2 kHz) to correct the treble droop, which at 44.1kHz is -3.2dB at 20kHz. The rolloff is clearly audible, just listen to some cymbals, but for me, things were more musically correct and ‘together’ with no oversampling. In any case one can just apply DSP, like I do via JRIver, if one wants to try.

The Foobar2000 ABX plugin is invaluable for blind testing, just encode one file at 44.1kHz, another at 88.2kHz, and compare. Try to avoid non-even oversampling like 96kHz or the original bits will not be preserved.

[Yomanze]

I've limited experience with NOS DACs, but my most recent example was the DAC3 by Starting Point Systems in France.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-SPDIF-Non-Oversampling-NOS-DAC-TDA1543-DIR9001-2x9V-NiMH-powers-from-USB/202291330659?hash=item2f1980be63:g:Ty0AAOSwk1JWcsf 8

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Ty0AAOSwk1JWcsf8/s-l500.jpg

They typically seem to sell on eBay auction for around £100, which is excellent vfm in my view.

I really liked it - but yes, quite a bit rolled off at the top with a meaty midrange and upper bass, and well defined imaging.
Not the most startlingly dynamic or exciting sound - and it doesn't scintillate with detail - but very "musical" imo, in an analog kind of way. ;)

Interesting because for me a TDA1543 can have quite violent dynamics and drive, at the expense of sophistication at the top end compared to a TDA1541A. I wonder if the battery power is a culprit of those laid back dynamics.

[jandl100]

Yes, ime battery power usually (always?) weakens dynamic drive in a power or pre amp, so probably in a DAC as well.
I did describe it as 'meaty', so I think the sound is very solid with well defined imaging.

I think it was Brian who noted improvements when he changed the battery type.

[brian2957]

Yup , I bought Uniross rechargeable batteries and they made a marked difference to the SQ of the DAC .

[montesquieu]

Yes. I used to do blind tests with my DAC in NOS vs 2x oversampling (88.2 kHz) to correct the treble droop, which at 44.1kHz is -3.2dB at 20kHz. The rolloff is clearly audible, just listen to some cymbals, but for me, things were more musically correct and ‘together’ with no oversampling. In any case one can just apply DSP, like I do via JRIver, if one wants to try.

The Foobar2000 ABX plugin is invaluable for blind testing, just encode one file at 44.1kHz, another at 88.2kHz, and compare. Try to avoid non-even oversampling like 96kHz or the original bits will not be preserved.

You can hear 20khz? I'm impressed.

[Yomanze]

You can hear 20khz? I'm impressed.

Yes I can hear 20kHz, it’s not exactly a tone I hear though, more like a presence. It’s there though...

Also, don’t forget that a NOS DAC will start rolling off around 16kHz.

[realysm42]

Idk if they’re for sale anymore, but if you can find a longdog vdt1, they’re excellent sounding DACs. I took mine to a bake off when I over in WA; it went up against all sorts (including a vitus) and it came out as one of the favourites of the bake off.

One of my best investments in hifi. Accuphase are excellent too.

[r100]

Piano 2.1 / Kali + good PSU combo

just my 2 cts but DAC's don't have to be that expensive :-)

(having said that..., I wouldn't mind listening to a Mytek or a Metrum, especially a Metrum...)

[Jimbo]

They just output electricity with a varying voltage. Exactly like a phono stage, or a tape deck does. Why would eschewing oversampling make this sound 'more analogue?' (That's rhetorical because I know the answer will be 'It just does'). In a blind comparison between an unfamiliar nos dac and an unfamiliar oversampling dac would you really be able to tell which was which?

If you want the sound of vinyl, listen to vinyl records!

If they could convert analogue into analogue perfectly without missing any of the original recorded information at all they would sound analogue but this is their main downfall. They cannot achieve this without missing information or just buggering it up!:)

[walpurgis]

If they could convert analogue into analogue perfectly without missing any of the original recorded information at all they would sound analogue but this is their main downfall. They cannot achieve this without missing information or just buggering it up!:)

I'm not sure I have a clue what you just said! :scratch:

[struth]

mine sounds pretty good; i mostly use dig streaming on headphones, and never get tired of it.

[Jimbo]

I'm not sure I have a clue what you just said! :scratch:

Think about what digital audio is and what job the DAC has to do. The analogue waveform is captured digitally (sampled and sliced up) It is then read from a file or CD and reconstructed by the DAC back into analogue. But digital cannot sample the sound infinitely so it misses some of the information (apparently we can't hear this) and then the DAC tries to reconstruct the information and produce an analogue output.

Our hearing can tell the difference which is why I think analogue sounds better.:) OK even the best analogue systems do not capture everything but even though information is missing our brain/hearing doesn't notice it so much.

[walpurgis]

So what information is missing from the reconstructed analogue waveforms?

[struth]

trouble with this is most vinyl has been recorded digitally, so has to be converted back to analogue somewhere.

[Jimbo]

So what information is missing from the reconstructed analogue waveforms?

Here you go Geoff, you will find your answer in this article but simply the missing information is part of the sound wave.


https://www.electronicproducts.com/Digital_ICs/Video_Graphics_Audio/Analog_Vs_Digital_Sound.aspx

[Yomanze]

trouble with this is most vinyl has been recorded digitally, so has to be converted back to analogue somewhere.

Yup, especially new vinyl, which is clearly digitally mastered, indeed remastered in a lot of cases.

[Clive]

trouble with this is most vinyl has been recorded digitally, so has to be converted back to analogue somewhere.
True for almost all new vinyl and cutters but most vinyl in existance is all analogue.....ie the old music I listen to.

[struth]

after late 70's probably has some digital in there or at least has a fair chance. so probably more has than hasnt. ive a lot of vinyl from both eras. some new ones are better imo than the older ones and vis a vie. overall i prefer the modern stuff these days. older stuff is often played out or badly mastered

[Jimbo]

after late 70's probably has some digital in there or at least has a fair chance. so probably more has than hasnt. ive a lot of vinyl from both eras. some new ones are better imo than the older ones and vis a vie. overall i prefer the modern stuff these days. older stuff is often played out or badly mastered

Quite a bit of my modern vinyl is from a digital source and some sound superb. I do have quite a bit of modern stuff that is record in analogue and it sounds superb. However I do not buy anything that is poorly mastered as I just won't listen to it.

I was listening to an video podcast yesterday and the guy mentioned that as a general rule most analogue before 1980 sounded better via vinyl based system and anything digitally recorded was best played via a digital system. Seems a bit of a broad brush to me as I think mastering and production is the key thing.

[walpurgis]

Here you go Geoff, you will find your answer in this article but simply the missing information is part of the sound wave.


https://www.electronicproducts.com/Digital_ICs/Video_Graphics_Audio/Analog_Vs_Digital_Sound.aspx

Yes. I'm aware of the processes and of what information may not be in the digital signal, but it does not say what might be missing, if anything from the reconstructed analogue signal.

The digital signal is the carrier that describes waves that create the analogue signal. Surely if the analogue waveform(s) is reconstituted smoothly there is no information missing?

As an analogy, audio from AM radio signals is derived in a somewhat similar manner. One half of a recified wave envelope being used.

[Barry]

Yes. I'm aware of the processes and of what information may not be in the digital signal, but it does not say what might be missing, if anything from the reconstructed analogue signal.

The digital signal is the carrier that describes waves that create the analogue signal. Surely if the analogue waveform(s) is reconstituted smoothly there is no information missing?

As an analogy, audio from AM radio signals is derived in a somewhat similar manner. One half of a recified wave envelope being used.

Good analogy, but it ought to be remembered that the AM 'carrier' frequency is much larger than the audio modulation signal frequency. For example Radio 4 on Long Wave is at 1,500 metres, that is a radio frequency of 200kHz; some 20x the highest audio frequency transmitted, whereas Shannon's sampling theory states that the sampling frequency need only be twice the signal frequency.

[User211]

Yup , I bought Uniross rechargeable batteries and they made a marked difference to the SQ of the DAC .

They probably are manufactured differently and therefore have a different set of characteristics. Check out the below.

"Here is a good article about the pros and cons of Battery power, SMPS and LPS. It doesn't include tube regulated PS or SHUNT.

Note: A version of this article was originally written and published on Larry Ho’s personal blog on December 1, 2014.
There’s a common assumption that battery power supplies are much less noisy than switched-mode, or even linear, power supplies.

I think the most likely reason that people make this assumption is because, they believe, pure DC power doesn’t have any AC noise on it. But let’s take a closer look at this and see if I can help you decide which method for powering your audio gear is best.

The way a battery produces power
Batteries produce and deliver power through a chemical reaction. Every type of battery will use a different chemical mixture to generate power. Lithium Ion and Sealed Lead Acid are two of the most popular (of the more than 150 types of) batteries. For your reference, Wikipedia has a nice long list of battery technologies here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_types

As a battery drains, the amount of chemical compound available to produce electricity is reduced. That means there’s an exponential decay on the amount of power a battery can produce. So a battery with a 100% charge will have far more capability of producing fast transients than a battery that isn’t fully charged, especially if that charge is below 50% of its capacity. Depending on the battery’s manufacturing process and the stage of its life cycle, the problem of power delivery speed is compounded. This is the reason some people note that a new battery sounds better than an older battery.

With this information, it behooves users to replace batteries often and keep them charged to capacity as much as possible. This, of course, means that larger budgets must be set aside for batteries as frequent charging leads to shorter battery life.

Battery noise generation
The assumption that batteries aren’t noisy is flawed because batteries have a substantial amount of high frequency ripple. Meaning that there’s a large amount of high frequency AC noise that rides on top of the DC output voltage. Different batteries using different chemical reactions will generate different types and frequencies of noise. And, as the chemical reaction changes as the battery drains, the spectrum of noise changes as well. Also, as discussed above, as the battery discharges, the output voltage and current destabilizes, causing a slower transient response.

Ultimately, batteries provide a non-constant power source that produces a variable spectrum noise that users are trying to get rid of by switching to batteries in the first place.

Introducing Noise as Batteries Recharge
As mentioned above, in order to get the most out of your batteries, they need to be as close to 100% charged as you can get them. One way to keep your batteries charged is to use an automatic trickle charger. This device detects when voltage from the battery is below a pre-determined threshold. When the threshold is reached, it begins to recharge your batteries. In this scenario, the AC recharge injects noise into the battery’s path, when means your system has to include a filter to address both battery noise and AC noise.

The other option is to manually recharge batteries when the system isn’t in use. This is a much better option when it comes to noise, but it’s inconvenient to users. Who wants to stop in the middle of a listening session so you can manually recharge your batteries?

Grounding
By using a batteries, you aren’t connected to ground in the same way. The connected device is either isolated from an earth ground altogether or it’s directly connected, depending on the battery powered device’s connections to other devices, such as a computer. This means that shields can become noise cages. In addition, it’s easy to end up with a ground loop along your system’s cables as the system tries to find an alternative path to ground. When this happens, it’s not easy to find the cultrip for the loop.

Batteries vs a Switched-Mode Power Supply (SMPS)
Noise generated by batteries is usually very high frequency noise, well into the MHz or even GHz range. This noise is very difficult to filter and is exactly the kind of noise we hate the most because of the artifacts it sends down into the audible range. Still, this noise is less than that which is generated by a switched-mode power supply. In comparison, batteries are the better choice, but still not a great choice.

Linear Power Supply (LPS) with a Super-Quiet DC Circuit

A linear power supply can be designed with a much wider bandwidth, a super-stabilized voltage and current capacity, a considerably lower noise floor, and much more power than a battery power supply. It does come with trade-offs, though.

A good LPS is usually very heavy due to the amount of metal needed in its transformers and the size of its capacitors. The more wattage you need, the heavier it is. Nobody in the last 30 years has been able to solve the issue of weight.

A good LPS is not inexpensive. Again, because of the components that are needed, cost is a major contributing factor into why users elect against an LPS.

Conclusion
There’s no perfect solution for noise-free power. Each one we’ve discussed (battery, SMPS, & LPS) come with their own pros and cons. In my opinion, based on how I use my audio system, I rank these solutions as #1: linear power supply, #2: battery power supply, and #3: switched-mode power supply. The beauty of this hobby, though, is that everyone gets to make their own decision. Hopefully now you have more considerations as you decide which method you like most. "

[Clive]

My experience to date is that LiFePO4 batteries are the quietest battery option and possess huge peak current capability. Charging them is a bit of a pain though.

[Barry]

In general the lower the internal resistance the battery has the lower the thermal noise, but the 1/f noise will depend on the chemical reaction the battery uses and both tend to depend on the capacity of the battery (its size, quoted in mAh) - the bigger the better.

[Macca]

Here you go Geoff, you will find your answer in this article but simply the missing information is part of the sound wave.


https://www.electronicproducts.com/Digital_ICs/Video_Graphics_Audio/Analog_Vs_Digital_Sound.aspx

Whoever wrote that article doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. Try this one https://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/exploring-digital-audio-myths-and-reality-part-1

[jandl100]

Sigh.
There really is no information missing in digitally sampled music.

If you want to find differences look, for example, at the output stage of DACs.
What a load of bollocks is being posted by some people on this thread.

If you like vinyl, fine - but stop making things up so as to justify that preference and give this bollocks a rest.

[George47]

Whoever wrote that article doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. Try this one https://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/exploring-digital-audio-myths-and-reality-part-1

The irony is that the article is not quite right for NOS DACs. The classic staircase output does not appear in most DACs because the signal is filtered and the high-frequency noise is removed. However, when JA measured the Audionote DAC he saw the 'classic' staircase output. Obviously, as the NOS DAC has no filters then higher frequencies go straight through and the staircase output appears. Of course there is no additional information as it is noise.

Whilst I like the sound of NOS DAC, I suspect it may be more due to the use of discrete components rather than cheap op-amps, or even better, valves. But that is a different discussion.

There may be information missing from conventional DACs but it is not for the reasons in the original article.

[Macca]

Whilst I like the sound of NOS DAC, I suspect it may be more due to the use of discrete components rather than cheap op-amps, or even better, valves. But that is a different discussion.

.

It could well be a variety of different things. The problem arises when people hear something they like the sound of and then jump to conclusions about why it is they like it.

No DAC is going to 'miss' information. It just doesn't work that way. It's possible to have low-level sounds getting swamped by noise/distortion, though, and this is where a well-engineered DAC will have the advantage.

[StanleyB]

Talking about battery, power supply, and noise: I finally managed to come up with a solution that beats all of the existing ones. But I am only going to develop it for my own DACs for now. I gave a demo of it over the weekend, and I am quite pleased with the feedback received.
The main reason that I mention this is because it puts a lot of previous assumptions completely on its head.

[Macca]

Sounds intriguing.

[StanleyB]

It is. I spent more than ten years trying to get this thing off the ground, so I am well pleased to have finally cracked it. More info to follow in its own thread at a later date.

[struth]

bicycle power? right :eek:

[StanleyB]

bicycle power? right :eek: A wood chip burner actually. Quite popular in NI apparently :lol:.