Your most loved three vinyl grinders owned throughout the years! [Archive]

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Rare Bird

10-03-2010, 02:39

http://home.c2i.net/jantoresvart/turntables/hydraulic.jpg

http://www.thevintageknob.org/THEVAULT1/401/401.html

http://www.thevintageknob.org/THEVAULT1/DM101/DM101.html

MartinT

10-03-2010, 20:53

Michell Syncro / Helius Aureus

Roksan Xerxes / SME IV

Strathclyde STD305M / Michell TecnoArm(A)

Technics SL-1210 / Jelco SA-250ST (see footer), ok I know that's four but it's the current one

chris@panteg

10-03-2010, 22:52

Logic Tempo / Datum arm

Voyd .5 reference psu / SME 310

Technics SL1210 ' unfinished

The Vinyl Adventure

10-03-2010, 22:57

I have only had 4 :(

techie 1300 - was a bit broke so I gave it away
roksan xerxes - was a bit of a soft touch for my tastes - very nice though!
Thorens td160 - in my second system
techie 1210 - ... ... ...

Joe

10-03-2010, 23:26

AR turntable 1981-86
Roksan Xerxes 1986-2004
Roksan Xerxes X 2004-now

The Grand Wazoo

10-03-2010, 23:49

Given that this is purely about nostalgia..............

Original AR turntable
One that I loved for all the fun it gave me messing about to make it sound better......and by God you couldn't half make it sound better! I did 4 or 5 of these up of various different vintages and also owned a more modern 'The Turntable' and a 'Legend'.

http://www.neatstuff.net/records/Turntables/AR-Turntable.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------
Thorens TD 160
For the same reasons as above I suppose.

http://www.magnatmuseum.nl/Cliparts/Gadgets/Audiofielen/Willem%20Schipper/Thorens-TD160.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------
One that I never owned, but wished I could have:
Oxford Acoustics Crystal Reference

..........like this but in oiled walnut

http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL826/116254/201676/1951202.jpg

Vinyl is a gift from God

15-03-2010, 17:48

Prior to my Spacedeck:

Ariston RD80SL/SME IIIS

Townshend Avalon/Moth

Logic DM101/Linn LVX Basik Plus

Barry

15-03-2010, 18:13

I started with a Garrard SP25 III(?), which I kept for about a year before passing it on to my father and replacing it with:

[1] A Collaro 2020 rim drive TT with a massive platter. (~1970) The Collaro arm (a dog!) was instantly removed and replaced with an SME.

This in turn was replaced with

[2] Thorens TD124/II with SME. (1972) One of three I have, fitted with various arms. A combination of rim drive and belt drive. Best or worse of both worlds? Four speed 'gearbox' and clutch! Only deck I know of with a 16 2/3 rpm speed.

[3] EMT 930st with 929 arm and EMT cartridge. Another rim drive TT powered by a three phase motor that has phenomenal drive and pace. So stable that the (albeit rudementary) fine speed adjustment is underneath the deck: once adjusted it need not be touched.

Regards

Haselsh1

15-03-2010, 18:45

Logic DM101 with Syrinx PU2 Gold tonearm and Kiseki Blue cartridge. Alphason Sonata with Alphason HR100S MCS tonearm and Kiseki Blue cartridge. Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck with Spacearm and Ortofon Kontrapunkt a cartridge.

REW

15-03-2010, 19:34

My first real deck (after the inevitable early '70s Garrards those of a certain age will know well) was the Connoisseur BD1 kit, Acos Lustre (which became the Rega RB200) with Shure M75ED. First incarnation minimalist plinth I later ruined with box and home made balsa and tissue paper (no really) lid.

Second I liked Thorens TD160S, SME 3009 imp plus Goldring G1006 - owned for years

Latest Michell Tecnodec, Nima plus Denon160 - very clean by comparison with Thorens

Also running Linn Axis with the same Shure M75ED mentioned first - this deck is easy to use compared with the Tecnodec/Nima when erm, back from the pub

DSJR

15-03-2010, 19:48

Lenco GL75 (I've had several over the decades) and also a G88 with ORIGINAL 12" SME from 1962 approx.....

NAS Mentor/Mentor arm/Decca Gold Microscanner - WHY did i get rid of this dear old deck? I remember, a suicidal Decca and severe lack of money to pay the mortgage and repair my Citroen......... Decca now repaired and re-aligned just awaiting a suitable deck and arm...

Dual 1229/701 - I love these decks, the sound is easily Rega 3 standard (my 701 is better IMO) and whatever deck I keep as main deck (there's a distinct possibility of a Spacedeck with any luck), I'll never flog the 701...

Barry

15-03-2010, 19:59

Rare Bird

15-03-2010, 20:24

At least three Logic lovers :respect:

Vinyl is a gift from God

15-03-2010, 23:03

Vinyl is a gift from God

15-03-2010, 23:07

Spectral Morn

15-03-2010, 23:30

Voyd Valdi, Rega RB300, VDH MC10 This was my first really good TT (I had an Ariston Q Deck before it. I changed the arm to an SME 309 and ruined the sound)

SME Model 20, Graham Phantom B44 .1, Ortofon MC 7500 (or VDH Mc10, Ortofon MC2000 mk2, Lyra Clavis, VDH Frog Gold)

Oracle Delphi mk4, ET2 Arm (now SME 5 or Graham 2.2), VDH Mc10 My fave turntable. The combination of ET2 on this deck (my own design of arm board + made by me) was awesome. I should never have sold my ET2 arm.

Regards D S D L

Barry

15-03-2010, 23:35

Rare Bird

16-03-2010, 00:00

I remember seeing a Logic Gemini for sale in the HiFi Exchange shop on the edge of Manchester's Arndale Centre about 15 years ago. There was also some Croft gear in the window display as well.

I remember standing there trying to think of ways that I could fund it and justify it to "mar lady" at the same time.

There was no chance :(

I had the 'Gemini' it was basically a twin motor (Motor back, motor front) 'Tempo' with tufnol type platter, i had the 'Datum s' arm on that...Loved my old 'DM101' with Fidelity Research 'FR64' arm, greet..

Barry

16-03-2010, 00:02

I had the 'Gemini' it was basically a twin motor (Motor back, motor front) 'Tempo' with tufnol type platter, i had the 'Datum s' arm on that...Loved my old 'DM101' with Fidelity Research 'FR64' arm, greet..

Why on earth did you get rid of it Andre?

Regards

Rare Bird

16-03-2010, 01:25

Why on earth did you get rid of it Andre?

Regards

Cos i'm a prick :lol:

Well i took the FR arm off it to fit on plinth with Garrard '401'..Fitted an Alphason 'HR100S' to the Logic in it's place, convinced the Garrard was the one & sold it on ..I later realised the Logic/FR sounded better so sold the Garrard :mental: ..Later bought another 'DM101' really cheap put Hadcock on it, that was a disaster :lolsign: Don't get me wrong i still loved the '401' but the grass seemed greener

Haselsh1

16-03-2010, 07:20

The Logic DM101/Syrinx PU2/Kiseki Blue was the finest combination I have ever owned but gave way with the onset of CD in 1984 as I very mistakenly thought CD was the answer. I soon realised I had made a big mistake.
The Alphason Sonata with HR100 S MCS I owned around 2000-2003 but then I ran into a spell of serious financial trouble that lasted until 2006. I had to sell everything to recover and the system I have now is my attempt at clawing back some kind of decent system.
I hope it will carry on getting better.

MartinT

16-03-2010, 08:03

Spectral Morn

16-03-2010, 09:50

Hi Martin and Barry

Firstly all of the analogue rigs I have were bought S/H..with the exceptions of the Graham Phantom arm and all the cartridges (except the Ortofon 7500 which came with the SME Model 20).

Barry

Comparisons of all the cartridges....:eek:yikes what an undertaking :scratch:we shall see.

Martin

The Graham arms have a very different sound to the SME 5. The Graham 2.2 has a slightly more open sound than the 5. The 5 is darker in presentation, and the Graham lighter. The 5 bass is better (this was a slight short coming in earlier Graham arms. The upgrades which went up to 2.2 status mostly solved this weakness, with the Phantom solving the bass issue totally.) The Graham Phantom is superior to the 5 in every area.

The SME 5 to my ear sounds better on my Oracle Delphi than on its own turntable. The Graham Phantom, again to my ear sounds better on the Model 20 motor unit, than the 5 arm. On the Oracle (which has a very open, very fast and delicate sound )the Graham 2.2 tips things a wee bit to much to the light side. With the SME5 arm it gains weight and scale. Sadly the Graham Phantom is a wee bit too heavy and tall to fit easily on the Oracle. It can be done, but I can't be bothered doing it. The 2.2 and 5 have a similar weight so swapping them is relatively easy.

On the Model 20 turntable the Phantom arm opens things up and frankly transforms a damped, ultra controlled sound into a very open, fast, delicate and natural sound (the motor unit is excellent, but to my taste the 5 arm and Model 20 combination has a safe and boring sound), with great weight and scale too.

I tried the 2.2 arm on the Model 20 (had to build my own Graham to SME converter arm board to do this), but it didn't sound right (probably the fact the arm board I made was constructed from laminations of plastic card and not metal).

I have to say that I miss my Voyd Valdi....it had a quality to the sound that was, despite its modest cost, quite magical.

I should also point out that I don't normally use the VDH output cable on the 5 arm (its crap) I use a quality terminal box and Audio Note ANV cable instead.

Regards D S D L

chris@panteg

16-03-2010, 10:20

The Voyd Valdy ' sometimes comes up for sale ' where as the full Voyd less so .

If i ever get tired of this Techie malarkey ' the Valdy is still a fine deck ' and the belt and motors can be replaced if need be ! .

Marco

16-03-2010, 10:21

Hi Neil,

I concur completely with your views on SME above, particularly this bit:

On the Model 20 turntable the Phantom arm opens things up and frankly transforms a damped, ultra controlled sound into a very open, fast, delicate and natural sound (the motor unit is excellent, but to my taste the 5 arm and Model 20 combination is safe and boring), with great weight and scale too.

That's what I've always found with SMEs, but like you say it's a synergy thing. The 20 is a fine turntable (it's all in the superb engineering), but with the V arm fitted, ultra 'control' is taken too far, and over-eggs the pudding.

The reason for this, in my opinion, is in the V's use of magnesium throughout its construction. In my experience, magnesium is one of the finest materials for damping resonances, which is why the V measures so well on an accelerometer, but as we know only too well measurements tell only part of the story; what happens is that the arm ends up being too well damped, giving that overly 'controlled', almost strangled sound you rightly describe.

In that respect, it's rather like damping factors on amplifiers...Solid-state amps have much higher damping factors than valve amps, and so often (but not always) the former can reproduce music as if it's being 'held in check' and not allowed to 'breathe' or flow properly, compared to quality examples of the latter - and it's like that too with the SME V. It's why I'd feel confident that an M2-12R with its stainless steel arm-tube, fitted with a nice magnesium headshell, could sound better in some ways to a V or even a 312S, depending on what cartridge was being used...

Magnesium is a fantastic material though for constructing headshells from, as the high damping factor occurs at the point where it is most needed, next to the cartridge, rather than the damping effect being spread throughout the whole tonearm, which is why I use a magnesium headshell on my (stainless steel arm-tube) Jelco SA-750 to great effect ;)

Marco.

Marco

17-03-2010, 13:19

Hi Neil,

I thought you might have commented further on this? :)

Marco.

Beobloke

17-03-2010, 14:42

Somehow missed this thread so far, but not to worry - better late than never!

(1) Garrard 301, Alphason HR-100S, Ortofon Kontrapunkt b - my main deck for many years, although the Alphason has only been on there for a couple of years, and the Ortofon a few months. The Garrard was bought new by my uncle in 1964, he cherished it and very kindly gave it to me when he stopped using it, whereupon I've done the cherishing! I have heard one or two better turntables but they are way out of my price range, so it will undoubtedly stay in prime spot for many years to come, and even then I'll never part with it. I'd still like to change the HR-100S for an SME V one day but we'll see.....

(2) ADC Accutrac 4000 - an inspired idea, fairly badly executed by BSR and sold under the ADC badge. Underneath was a fairly basic DD deck and it uses proprietary cartridges for which the stylii are becoming very rare. I still love it though, hence why I'm on my third...
http://www.thevintageknob.org/THEVAULT1/ACCUTRACK4000/ACCU4000.html

(3) Sony Biotracer PSB-80 - an absurdly complicated and ultimately rather pointless turntable (like the ADC...) but designed and built properly by Sony! Electronic arm movement, electronic arm damping, automatic zero balance setting on startup/tracking force set by a front panel control and a motorised stylus cleaner. How can you not love it? Since having it repaired I must confess to having used it more than my 301.....
http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sonyesprit/PSB80/PSB80.html

Marco

17-03-2010, 15:00

I do like your taste in T/Ts, Adam -nice one :)

As far as your 301 is concerned though, I'm not sure I would (in fact I wouldn't) swap your HR-100S for an SME V, as depending on what cartridge was being used, I think it would be more of a 'side-grade' than an upgrade...

In my opinion, the HR-100S was (and still is) one of the finest pivoted tonearms ever made. It sold for a ridiculously low sum in its day - and the tale of its unfortunate designer is a very sad one indeed...

However, could you imagine how much one would cost now to build from scratch if it had, say, a Linn or an SME badge on it? :eek:

Marco.

MartinT

17-03-2010, 15:27

Pickup arm design has to be one of the most 'black art' areas of hi-fi. Sometimes the most inappropriate of combinations seem to work, other times not. For example, I have a friend with an SME3009-II on a Thorens deck with a Denon DL-103 cartridge. In a 'holey' SME headshell. It shouldn't work but in fact it sounds rather good. I also used to run an SME III with a Dynavector 20A MC cartridge - again, not really to be recommended but it sounded quite nice if not assertive.

Just look at the various solutions invented by companies to overcome the geometry, rigidity and damping requirements presented by tracing a groove. Some of them are truly bizarre!

bigmoog

17-03-2010, 15:27

three:

Voyd, zeta, decca: nice but a nightmare to set up...great sounds

Revolver, rb250, goldring eroica: very good until the motor decided to start spinning vinyl at a variable 23-60 rpm......

NAS Mentor, mission mechanic, decca garrott: terrific, if pug ugly deck

I have fondness for my old hellpee 12 as well:cool:

pure sound

17-03-2010, 15:37

As an owner of a J7 rebuilt Xenon and a Series V, I'd have to agree with Marco. The SME certainly does 'weighty & powerful' better than the Alphason but not necessarily immediacy, delicacy or speed. They both have great strengths and I'm happy using either enjoying the different flavour each has.

Marco

17-03-2010, 16:01

Hi Martin,

Pickup arm design has to be one of the most 'black art' areas of hi-fi. Sometimes the most inappropriate of combinations seem to work, other times not. For example, I have a friend with an SME3009-II on a Thorens deck with a Denon DL-103 cartridge. In a 'holey' SME headshell.

That's because most things are right apart from the headshell... Is it the fixed or detachable headshell 3009 (I forget which one the 'II' is)?

If it's the latter, your friend can substabtially improve matters by fitting the likes of a Sumiko headshell to it - then watch his 103 sing! ;)

The 103 likes 'lossy'-style arms like the 3009, as long as there's sufficient mass on the headshell. You can even get it to work well in unipivots like the Hadcock GH242, providing one adds the requisite amount of headshell mass. Basically, as far as optimising 103s in tonearms is concerned, it's the headshell end that impacts most on performance! :)

Marco.

Marco

17-03-2010, 16:08

Hi Guy.

As an owner of a J7 rebuilt Xenon and a Series V, I'd have to agree with Marco. The SME certainly does 'weighty & powerful' better than the Alphason but not necessarily immediacy, delicacy or speed. They both have great strengths and I'm happy using either enjoying the different flavour each has.

That's a good way of summarising it :)

For me though, regardless of issues of sound quality, the retro appeal of the HR-100S, and the sheer gorgeousness of its S-shaped, all one-piece, beautifully constructed titanium arm and headshell, would always win the day!

Marco.

Barry

17-03-2010, 17:48

Hi Guy.

That's a good way of summarising it :)

For me though, regardless of issues of sound quality, the retro appeal of the HR-100S, and the sheer gorgeousness of its S-shaped, all one-piece, beautifully constructed titanium arm and headshell, would always win the day!

Marco.

The Alphason arm was one of the best designed arms to come from the UK. I believe it was the first one-piece arm design, though I don't think it was made from titanium. It had superb ceramic bearings and along with the Rega one-piece cast aluminium arm caused SME to pull their socks up and develop the Series V arm.

I'm still thinking about your comments on the use of cast magnesium alloy for headshell only or for the complete (integrated) arm. Will reply when I have thought a little more about it.

Regards

pure sound

17-03-2010, 17:56

Barry

17-03-2010, 18:06

It (HR100S) was one piece of formed titanium. The Xenon has a similar arrangement although the part that goes through the bearing yoke is coloured black & may be some other material.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/cool.jpg

HR100S

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/alphasonhr100s1.gif

My mistake then! Since titanium is more brittle than aluminium, I have even more admiration for Alphason in producing a formed titanium arm.

Regards

Marco

17-03-2010, 18:19

YNWaN

17-03-2010, 20:37

I built my three favourites :)

John

17-03-2010, 20:51

VPI super scoutmaster with rim drive
GL78 Lenco with slate plinth
Gyro upgraded to a Orbe (for me a disappointment)

Spectral Morn

17-03-2010, 22:39

Hi Neil,

I thought you might have commented further on this? :)

Marco.

Sorry I have been a wee bit busy the last few days.

I can't say a lot about magnesium as a material in audio, but what you write sounds as good a reason for the *colourless sound*as any other I have read...except that I feel its a combination of that aspect + the awful darkness of the VDH arm cable used (wire an SME with any other internal cable and that would open things up. Haven't tried it, so I am not sure how much it will open things up by on a Model 20; but using an output box and different cable works wonders for the 5 on my Oracle.), also the SME turntable is in itself highly damped. It use damping sheets under the metal work, rubber O rings between motor and plinth, silicon damping in the adjusting towers, and the whole plinth hangs on heavy stiff rubber O rings. All in all its very damped. Sitting it on its metal ball feet rather than the rubber protective caps, helps a little as does sitting the whole motor unit on in my case granite.

The Graham B44 arm was developed by Bob Graham on/for a SME Model 30 motor unit, so logically it would, I thought sound very good on a Model 20, which it does. However clearance between the plinths on a Model 30 is greater than on a Model 20...so the output cable has to be rotated to a right angle. Unless you buy a right angled connector you need to modify it yourself, which I was able to do.

Uni-pivot arms which the Graham arms are, though they differ in implementation to other uni-pivots, have a very fast and open quality to them + excellent tracking ability (I know many don't rate uni-pivots in this area)due to the use of a magnet (old 2.2 used out rigger side weights), which controls the arms lateral movement.

My B44 is a .1(my designation for it as Graham never named his covert changes..until the .2 was released), Graham likes to tweak his designs and while mine is not a B44.2 it has a fair bit of what the .2 has. A customer/friend who came round was annoyed to note the differences between my B44 and his B44..."He's upgraded the arm "he said with a look of disgust on his face.

The Arm cable is also very good, its Graham's own IC 40 cable (now different on the B44.2)

One area where the SME arm destroys the Graham(any Graham arm) is the instruction booklet. Anyone can set up an SME, (instructions done to perfection)but Grahams, based on the scrapes of paper he includes, which he calls instructions....I don't think so..poor Bob very poor !

Many love the sound of the Model20A (including 5 arm)and unlike you I don't think its badge snobbery (might be in a few cases ;), but not all), they just like that sound. I don't like the digital sounding Avid TTs but many do. Like all things audio its a case of system synergy and taste.

Regards D S D L

pure sound

17-03-2010, 23:07

Indeed, Barry, but it has much greater rigidity, and is probably less resonant too...

Guy,

I'm sure I remember stories of the chap who made them (his name escpaes me now) demonstrating his tonearms at shows, and handing out a sample for people to see if they could bend - the idea being that if they could do it, they could then keep it! As far as I know, no-one managed it though...

Do you remember that? :)

Marco.

I remember that story and was actually handed an arm tube to bend once, but it wasn't Mike Knowles of Alphason. It was someone from SME with a very early Series V tube, and no, you couldn't make it flex, not even a tiny bit. Must have been about 1987? the tube was a blue colour, not painted.

My SMEV was bought direct from the factory (as a trade purchase) and I supplied the wire (Audio Note silver) for it. The standard internal wire, headshell leads and external lead are very poor in my view. The V with decent wiring fitted is a different sounding arm altogether, not dark or grainy sounding at all. I've had it 21 years now. It has been on and off several decks, been subjected to multiple cartridge changes and yet has never missed a beat always giving very high quality sound. I can't think of many high end arms which would have lasted so long, still work perfectly and have maintained their value so well.

The Alphason was acquired as a bag of bits. Spot the difference!

The Grand Wazoo

18-03-2010, 00:02

I'm sure I remember stories of the chap who made them (his name escpaes me now) demonstrating his tonearms at shows, and handing out a sample for people to see if they could bend - the idea being that if they could do it, they could then keep it! As far as I know, no-one managed it though...

Do you remember that?

That was an SME stunt with the armtube of the V, Marco.

EDIT: OK so I should've read Guy's post above.

Marco

18-03-2010, 00:57

Yup, but I'm quite sure that Mike Knowles did it at shows too with the titanium armtube of the HR-100S :)

Wish I'd been around when the arm-bending contest was taking place ;)

Marco.

Beobloke

18-03-2010, 08:27

I do like your taste in T/Ts, Adam -nice one :)

As far as your 301 is concerned though, I'm not sure I would (in fact I wouldn't) swap your HR-100S for an SME V, as depending on what cartridge was being used, I think it would be more of a 'side-grade' than an upgrade...

.

I have actually done the comparison on my Garrard 301 as David foolishly left his own SME V in the HFW office just before the Christmas holidays a few years back - he was off East for the duration so I ...er....'borrowed' it for the festive season!

Running an ATOC9-MLII I still found it to be an improvement over the HR-100S but I was surprised that it was a quite subtle improvement, rather than the huge leap forward I was expecting. This was also before I sent the HR-100S off to Johnnie at Audio Origami for a bearing service, whereupon it came back sounding even better, although not necessarily in the areas where I felt the V excelled.

Consequently, I shall still have a V some day but the Alphason is also in the category of items that I will never get rid of - I'm sure I can find another deck to put it on when the day comes!

Marco

18-03-2010, 08:45

Hi Adam,

I think you're doing the right thing not getting rid of the Alphason. If I had one, I'd treasure it for life! For me, the key to what you describe with the SME V lies here:

Running an ATOC9-MLII I still found it to be an improvement over the HR-100S but I was surprised that it was a quite subtle improvement, rather than the huge leap forward I was expecting.

Two things:

1) What you discovered was just how little the best modern tonearms have advanced in terms of performance compared to the best of the vintage varieties, which vindicates what I bang on about here all the time! ;)

2) The main reason the SME V 'worked' with the OC-9 is because it would've added weight and extension to the lower frequencies of the rather anaemic sounding OC-9 (in comparison in that area with other similarly-priced MC carts on the market), and injected a little warmth and richness to its rather 'insistent' and brightly lit top-end. In other words, the synergy was better with the SME V, rather than the design of the arm being intrinsically any superior to that of the Alphason.

Like Guy says, it's all about different 'flavours' and finding the right recipe for a given situation. In that respect, new is not necessarily better, and nor do 'respected badges' in hi-fi guarantee a better product :cool:

Marco.

MartinT

18-03-2010, 08:56

The main reason the SME V 'worked' with the OC-9 is because it would've added weight and extension to the lower frequencies of the rather anaemic sounding OC-9 (in comparison in that area with other similarly-priced MC carts on the market), and injected a little warmth and richness to its rather 'insistent' and brightly lit top-end

Spot-on, Marco, when I was running an SME IV with OC9 the SME's weighty bottom end worked very well with the AT and produced a synergistic coupling. Combined with an EAR 834P (which has transformers in the MC position) it had some needed added warmth.

However, on an absolute level the AT33PTG has a better balance with a more natural and extended bass and this works very well with the Jelco SA-250ST arm. This cart in an SME may prove to be too much of a good thing.

Marco

18-03-2010, 09:07

I'm glad you agree, Martin, and of course have the relevant experience to confirm your view :)

You may also wish to point out to Adam that the Jelco SA-250 is not 'budget' in terms of performance compared with an SME 309 (which he asserted earlier) - in fact, according to you, your SA-250 is as good as your SME IV was! ;)

With regard to cartridges, the AT33PTG is quite simply a better all-rounder than the OC-9, and it's cheaper, and so offers rather more in the way of SPPV.

Why the UK gets foisted with the OC-9, decent though it is, and Japan (and elsewhere) get the superior and less expensive AT33PTG, God only knows.... :rolleyes:

Marco.

pure sound

18-03-2010, 10:01

Marco

18-03-2010, 10:19

Hi Neil,

Thanks for your thoughts :)

I can't say a lot about magnesium as a material in audio, but what you write sounds as good a reason for the *colourless sound*as any other I have read...except that I feel its a combination of that aspect + the awful darkness of the VDH arm cable used (wire an SME with any other internal cable and that would open things up.

I do think what I've written is a fairly plausible explanation of the reason for the negative sonic effect you can hear with an SME V, when used on one of SME's own turntables. However, you're right about the VDH arm cable. The best thing anyone can do with it is rip it out and fit something more sonically neutral.

I've had a love/hate relationship with VDH cables throughout the years, and unfortunately it's mostly been hate, as at their worst, they sound rather opaque and dynamically constrained. However, now and then, they come up with a few gems, and the speaker cable ('The Wind'), which I use, is a case in point, and arguably one of the best speaker cables I've heard at any sort of an affordable price - ditto the CS-14 Hybrid internal cable used in the Lockwoods.

It's so frustrating that their product range isn't more consistent in terms of sonic performance! :rolleyes: It's almost as if AJ has a brainwave now and then with his products which results in something that *really* works, but otherwise mostly spends his time flattering to deceive...

...also the SME turntable is in itself highly damped. It use damping sheets under the metal work, rubber O rings between motor and plinth, silicon damping in the adjusting towers, and the whole plinth hangs on heavy stiff rubber O rings. All in all its very damped.

Indeed. It suffers from the effects of over-engineering! It might not make sense, but sometimes you can go over the top in that way and 'kill' the music in the process.

What you describe undoubtedly also has a major effect on the overly controlled sound of SME T/Ts when used with SME (magnesium-constructed) arms.

The Graham B44 arm was developed by Bob Graham on/for a SME Model 30 motor unit, so logically it would, I thought sound very good on a Model 20, which it does. However clearance between the plinths on a Model 30 is greater than on a Model 20...so the output cable has to be rotated to a right angle. Unless you buy a right angled connector you need to modify it yourself, which I was able to do.

That is why it pays to think outside of the box, as most 'audiophiles' would simply contend that SME know best, and thus their tonearms are bound to sound best with their turntables, which on the surface seems logical, until some lateral thinking is applied by those with the ability to look beyond the end of their nose ;)

Many love the sound of the Model20A (including 5 arm)and unlike you I don't think its badge snobbery (might be in a few cases ;), but not all), they just like that sound. I don't like the digital sounding Avid TTs but many do. Like all things audio its a case of system synergy and taste.

I completely agree, although SME (given the company's provenance) attracts its fair share of badge snobs, so as good as their arms and T/Ts are, on AOS I prefer to encourage the following of other less obvious avenues, ultimately leading to the achievement of much higher SPPV....

Marco.

Marco

18-03-2010, 10:47

Hi Guy,

Having used an EMT 929 recently on the 938 I borrowed, I'm not sure I'd put it in the same class as either the Alphason or an SME. It struck me as a rather clunky, agricultural device somewhat crudely executed and lacking the potential for easy fine adjustment. Perhaps any advantage it has comes from it being slightly longer than a 9" arm, but the headshell arrangement, provision for bias & vtf adjustment and the sound of the combination with 938 was some way short of what I'd be looking for. Ok perhaps for a radio studio where everything had to track securely, sound safe and withstand the daily rigours of clumsy use. Less suited for the home. I certainly wouldn't take the trouble to buy a loose one & fit it to a technics or any other deck for that matter. I suspect there are better, more versatile arms out there for similar money or less.

I know of the experience you refer to above, as you told me about it at the time, so I don't for one second doubt your experiences. However, quite simply, that's not what I heard with Barry's EMT XSD-15 when it was installed in the Jelco, running through the A23 and into the Croft phono stage!

Perhaps I got the synergy right better than you did, who knows? :)

What I heard (effects of misalignment and incorrect VTA aside) was that similar 'magic' and tonal richness in presentation, with bass to die for, I get with the DL-103SA - the effect of which I love, (does the EMT also use Alnicos?), but with a much wider repertoire throughout the frequency range in terms of its musical abilities. It also acted as a wider open window onto recordings, due to its superior detail retrieval, and it possessed a filigree of silkiness in the upper frequencies that evades the (already talented in this area through the A23) 103SA.

You might be right about the EMT tonearm, in comparison to the Jelco SA-750, but I'm afraid I may have no other option of fitting the EMT if I wish to use the cartridge I described above, which would be the TSD-15 if I were to fit an EMT arm onto the 1210.

The reason for this is that the XSD-15, which has an SME-type bayonet fitting, comes with an especially long shaft, which makes it protrude much further from the end of the Jelco than a normal detachable headshell, thus I suspect skewing correct alignment by quite a significant margin. Therefore, as there is no alignment adjustment possible on the headshell, and as the Jelco arm itself cannot be moved in any way, I'm forced to look at other options...

What I thought could solve the issue is to go for an EMT arm, that would thus allow me to use the matching TSD-15 cartridge, which crucially has a very short and stubby shaft, shorter in fact than even that on a normal detachable headshell (in fact, it almost mates directly with the arm), so I suspect that this would likely allow for correct alignment, but of course it is by no means guaranteed - the only way I'll know for sure is to try it and see!

Based on what I heard though with Barry's XSD-15, if I get it right, the sonic rewards could be quite considerable, unless the EMT arm is a real dog compared to the Jelco, which I doubt. So unless you've got any better suggestions for using this combination with my existing T/T, then I'm willing to give it a go, not right now but perhaps later this year, as I have other priorities at the moment :cool:

Marco.

Marco

18-03-2010, 11:11

I've just read this from Dave C on another thread:

We can make an arm plate to get the EMT cartridge in the right place on the Jelco...

That completely solves the problem and saves me a wad of cash in the process - hurrah for Mr Cawley! :) :cool:

Marco.

pure sound

18-03-2010, 12:38

I didn't use an EMT cartridge when I had the EMT turntable here.

However, I have borrowed an EMT cartridge in the past (one of these)
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/EMTTSD15.jpg

It was certainly powerful sounding but the HF was hard & ultimately fatiguing. I couldn't have lived with it in the long term. Personally I think I'd take an SPU, for all its foibles, every time.

Marco

18-03-2010, 12:48

That's right you had that Shure SC35C on it, didn't you?

It was certainly powerful sounding but the HF was hard & ultimately fatiguing. I couldn't have lived with it in the long term.

Yup, thing is though Barry's XSD-15 didn't sound like that at all when set-up in my system - quite the opposite in fact! ;)

They must be different designs?

I guess that I just really like the sound of broadcast cartridges (DL-103 and such like), and to my ears in my system, the XSD-15 sounds like another very fine example of the breed :cool:

Marco.

pure sound

18-03-2010, 13:10

Only briefly with the Shure. It wasn't great. I had 2 or 3 other MM's to try but was somewhat constrained by having to use the TT's hardwired in, mm only phono stage.

Could also have done with one of these TDU headshells really.

http://www.emt-profi.de/headshell_tdu.htm

Marco

18-03-2010, 13:50

Indeed - it could well have been. I'm not sure I like the design of that headshell too much, TBH...

Another significant factor could've been that the A23 SUT also works very well with the XSD-15, as was confirmed by Shindo USA (who distribute Auditorium products), when I decided to buy the A23 and I was talking to them about SUTs for the 103, EMT and SPU - all of which Auditorium 23 make SUTs for :)

Basically, the bottom line was that the synergy was spot-on with the combo I had in conjunction with the EMT XSD-15 in my system :cool:

Marco.

pure sound

18-03-2010, 13:58

There are 3 visible aspects of this cartridge design which could be improved upon.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/EMTTSD15edited.jpg

A. The shape of the magnetic circuit is full of discontinuities, ie changes in profile. This is far from ideal. You really want a smooth shape without right angled bends etc. The ideal would be a round section ring with a small gap for the coils to sit in and the pole pieces either side of the coils shaped to focus the field right through where the coils sit. the more closely that can be approximated, the better the magnetic field will behave.

B. the lead off wires from the coils go straight to the points where the output wires are attached. How these fine wires are 'dressed' will affect the behaviour of the coil. There are better ways of managing these wires.

C. All of the EMT generators seem to need some capacitative loading to control that HF response which suggests to me that something in the design is flawed. I have heard of people having to alter the capacitative loading, sometimes adding more to get it to work satisfactorily.

Not convinced that the open body is a great idea either. All imho of course.

Marco

18-03-2010, 14:07

Hey, if you say so Capt'n... :eyebrows: I'm afraid most of that is beyond my big daft nut!

Do you know if the EMTs (specifically the XSD-15 I heard) use Alnicos?

Marco.

pure sound

18-03-2010, 14:46

No I don't although it wouldn't surprise me given the age of the design. I think the XSD15 is just the above, but in an EMT shell with a bottom cover fitted.

However it would seem that converting an XSD15 to be universally usable is not quite straightforward.

Here's an interesting write-up on ZG

http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17016

Marco

18-03-2010, 14:59

Thanks - I've have a good read through that later! :)

I suspect that the EMT does use Alnicos, because I can hear their trademark 'musicality'. What's obvious to me is that something must be causing the difference between this:

It was certainly powerful sounding but the HF was hard & ultimately fatiguing. I couldn't have lived with it in the long term.

And this:

What I heard (effects of misalignment and incorrect VTA aside) was that similar 'magic' and tonal richness in presentation, with bass to die for, I get with the DL-103SA - the effect of which I love, (does the EMT also use Alnicos?), but with a much wider repertoire throughout the frequency range in terms of its musical abilities. It also acted as a wider open window onto recordings, due to its superior detail retrieval, and it possessed a filigree of silkiness in the upper frequencies that evades the (already talented in this area through the A23) 103SA.

...when referring to the EMT, because neither of us are imagining what we hear! ;)

A valid explanation must exist to explain the diametrically opposed results obtained, and I'm certain it's not simply just down to our different preferences, because generally you and I have similar tastes in audio.

Marco.

Barry

18-03-2010, 16:02

Having used an EMT 929 recently on the 938 I borrowed, I'm not sure I'd put it in the same class as either the Alphason or an SME. It struck me as a rather clunky, agricultural device somewhat crudely executed and lacking the potential for easy fine adjustment.

I'm inclined to agree. The 929 arm is similar in appearance to the Thorens TP14 (though the EMT arm is allegedly better built). I would place the 929 with the Audio Technica AT1503 III, another arm designed for broadcast use. Regarding adjustments, the application of tracking force is little different to any other arm, bias is achieved with a hanging weight (as the SME) and the adjustment of VTA is no different from most arms (i.e. difficult).

It has to be remembered that EMT designed their deck, arm and cartridge for broadcast studio use. It had to be sufficiently robust and reliable to withstand the rigors of continious use for several hours a day, day in day out.

This also explains why there is no adjustment of overhang within the headshell of EMT cartridges. EMT designed the arm and the cartridge as one (much as Decca did). The goal was one of consistency; each cartridge was to be as near identical to any other sample. Again a deliberate policy; should a cartridge fail in use, a replacement could be fitted in a matter of seconds, without the necessity of readjusting overhang or tracking force and bias; important in broadcast use.

I certainly wouldn't take the trouble to buy a loose one & fit it to a technics or any other deck for that matter. I suspect there are better, more versatile arms out there for similar money or less.

Again I agree. Thanks to the Japanese (who have done the same for the Ortofon SPU), EMT 929 arms now fetch rediculous sums on ebay and the like. There are I believe much better arms available, the Jelco being one such. I happen to use an EMT 929 arm with the TSD15 cartridge because I have a 930 deck. As a whole I am very pleased with the overall performance.

I also use an XSD15 in either an SME3009 or 3012 arm. The SMEs are used because they use a sliding base to adjust overhang, as there is no provision to do this within the EMT headshell. I have used an EMT/SME combination for the last 30 years.

It was certainly powerful sounding but the HF was hard & ultimately fatiguing. I couldn't have lived with it in the long term. Personally I think I'd take an SPU, for all its foibles, every time.

I understand what you are saying, though I would describe the treble as 'untidy'. In comparison with the Denon 103 series, I would say that the Denon is better in the bass both tonally and in its control, compared to the EMT and also that the treble is 'tidier'. I have noticed this with my own Denon 103C and also with Marco's 103SA. It should also be noted that the EMT displays a very broad sag in its response starting around 1KHz and finishing around 7KHz, being 2dB deep at around 4KHz. In comparison the Denon is near ruler flat. This might explain the musical features that Marco likes.

None of my EMTs are fitted with capacitors to 'tame' the top end. That was a development made by Roksan and by the German company Tubafon, who take nude EMT generators and modify them. Incidently I notice in the photograph of the nude EMT you tried, capacitors are fitted, yet you still found the treble hard and fatiguing?

There seems to be no real consensus over the correct loading for an EMT. EMT don't fit capacitors at the cartridge. The current STX-21 transformer (10:1 step up) has a 33uF capacitor fitted inside as well as a shunt resistor on the secondary side, so effectively loading the cartridge with 171.5 Ohm, assuming a nominal 47Kohm loading by the preamp. The A23 transformer, I believe, offers a loading of 105 Ohm and seemed to work very well with the EMT. I have read of other users loading the EMT with 600-800 Ohms (800 Ohms was recomended by the reviewers in The Absolute Sound magazine). I use 100 Ohms plus 22nF.

The coil resistance of the EMT is 22Ohm, similar to the 14Ohm figure for the Denon103SA. Further evidence that the A23 SUT is a good match for EMTs

You might be right about the EMT tonearm, in comparison to the Jelco SA-750, but I'm afraid I may have no other option of fitting the EMT if I wish to use the cartridge I described above, which would be the TSD-15 if I were to fit an EMT arm onto the 1210.

The reason for this is that the XSD-15, which has an SME-type bayonet fitting, comes with an especially long shaft, which makes it protrude much further from the end of the Jelco than a normal detachable headshell, thus I suspect skewing correct alignment by quite a significant margin. Therefore, as there is no alignment adjustment possible on the headshell, and as the Jelco arm itself cannot be moved in any way, I'm forced to look at other options...

What I thought could solve the issue is to go for an EMT arm, that would thus allow me to use the matching TSD-15 cartridge, which crucially has a very short and stubby shaft, shorter in fact than even that on a normal detachable headshell (in fact, it almost mates directly with the arm), so I suspect that this would likely allow for correct alignment, but of course it is by no means guaranteed - the only way I'll know for sure is to try it and see!

Don't be confused between the TSD and XSD headshells. The XSD design was made so that EMT cartridges could be used in SME arms, killing two birds with one stone: changing the Neuman 'diamond' contact arrangement to that of the EIA/SME arrangement, as well as arranging for the correct overhang in the shorter SME arm.

If I were starting from a clean state, as you can Marco, I would retain the Jelco arm (especially as Dave C can provide the correct arm board) and procure a 'nude' EMT and fit it into the Fidelity Research headshell. I have doubts about the resonant behaviour and integrity of the EMT headshell.

The EMT929 arm (with TSD cartridge ) has the following geometry:

effective length (stylus tip to arm pivot), 244mm
overhang, 14mm
offset, 20.8 degree
mounting distance (from turntable spigot), 230mm.

This should help Dave C with the Jelco armboard.

Do you know if the EMTs (specifically the XSD-15 I heard) use Alnicos?

Yes they do. I have read elsewher of people prefering Alnico magnets (espsecially in speaker drive units), though I don't understand why.

Apologies for the length of this post, but being a bit of an EMT enthusiast and knowing the Marco was quite impressed on hearing my sample in his system, I want to offer as much encouragement as I can.

Regards

Marco

18-03-2010, 16:39

Most interesting, Barry - and thank you for the very useful information. I'm shortly about to go out for dinner with Del, so will comment later :)

Marco.

P.S I bloody well knew the EMT used Alnicos - I can hear their effect a mile away! ;)

pure sound

18-03-2010, 17:09

I can't remember whether the particular 'nude' EMT I borrowed had the caps fitted. I should think it was 6-7 years ago perhaps a bit longer. Given that, as you say, it was a Roksan development then probably not. Perhaps it did need some damping down at HF.

Batty

22-06-2010, 00:03

I have only owned 3 TTs so an easy task.

1. Amstrad TP12D with a MP11 cart - ugly thing but all I could afford at the time.
2. Garrard DD130 several carts including MP11, G800, a Grado and some ATs I can't recall.
3. 1986 to present Townshend Elite Rock moth RB250 (recently rewired by j7) carts have been Eroica high o/p, goldie 1022 & 1042 and a DL-110 so far.....

Cheers

quadsugdenman

22-06-2010, 08:46

My list started in 1976 with a Goldring G102/G800 but it did not last long because of the poor tracking and rumble.

But my 3 faves are/were
Trio KD1033/Ortofon FF15EII
Thorens TD 160 / Mayware Formula 4/ Decca London GoldIII
Linn Sondek/IttokVII/Audio Technica AT 07C

To this day I miss the absolute brash dynamics of the Decca London and the smoothness of the AT-07c

Looking to change my Ittok VIII /SBPS for something different :scratch:

Techno Commander

27-06-2010, 14:45

Beogram 2404
http://www.beoworld.org/assets/thumbnails/2204gram_b.jpg

Thorens TD 145
http://stereomecmuasi.com/images/sonradaneklenen/6/7.jpg

Pink Triangle Little Pink Thing
http://www.turntable-power-supply.com/turntables_fitting/images/pink_triangle_finished_plat.jpg

I always wanted a black gyrodec though. Sadly I do not have a vinyl spinner at the moment. Or much vinyl either.

Buggleskelly

09-07-2010, 13:59

* B&O 1100 - my first ever proper deck back in '77

* B&O 4004 lateral tracker with the 20CL cartridge. Still love to have one of these - but a real pain in the 'arris and expensive to fix when they go wrong :eek:

* My current deck - PL71D with Ortofon Rondo Bronze

/ Steve