LCR phono stages - opinion

[martinswimmer]

Anyone with experience of these? They range form super expensive to relatively affordable / SS or valve / East Europe / China...
I tried the search function but nothing comes back.

Anyone built one?

[bbbiker800]

Hi. I got mine from divine audio via winning ebay bid. Its a Lounge Audio LCR MKIII - built in the USA. It replaced a Musical Fidelity XLPS-v3 and its an excellent upgrade in all departments but none more so than the huge difference in channel separation.

Regards Richard

[montesquieu]

Hi. I got mine from divine audio via winning ebay bid. Its a Lounge Audio LCR MKIII - built in the USA. It replaced a Musical Fidelity XLPS-v3 and its an excellent upgrade in all departments but none more so than the huge difference in channel separation.

Regards Richard


The Aurorasound Vida is an LCR phono stage, I had one and it's superb. They are tricky to make as the design typically requires custom transformers wound to very tight tolerances, something that's not straightforward to organise and typically very expensive. The Aurorasound is the best stand-alone phono stage I've owned, out of quite a few! It's not cheap though.

I have been curious about the LCR phono stage sold by Valab (Vintage Audio Lab) in Taiwan, I've bought quite a bit of stuff over the years from its proprietor, most recently a truly superb single ended solid state amp modelled on the Pass Aleph Mini, and I trust that it would be excellent https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Valab-LCR-1-MC-MM-LCR-RIAA-Phono-Stage/323106956879?hash=item4b3aace64f:g:TxsAAOSwkjNZuwQ S - it certainly got a super write-up recently http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/LCR-RIAA-shootout.htm Troels puts it almost on a par with the EAR 912 which is astonishing considering the relative price differential.

[martinswimmer]

Hi. I got mine from divine audio via winning ebay bid. Its a Lounge Audio LCR MKIII ...
I've come across that one and seems like a great deal for the money. Would you say that the sound is characteristically "LCR" or the difference is just what one would expect between different phono stages?

[martinswimmer]

I have been curious about the LCR phono stage sold by Valab (Vintage Audio Lab) in Taiwan, I've bought quite a bit of stuff over the years from its proprietor, most recently a truly superb single ended solid state amp modelled on the Pass Aleph Mini, and I trust that it would be excellent https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Valab-LCR-1-MC-MM-LCR-RIAA-Phono-Stage/323106956879?hash=item4b3aace64f:g:TxsAAOSwkjNZuwQ S - it certainly got a super write-up recently http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/LCR-RIAA-shootout.htm Troels puts it almost on a par with the EAR 912 which is astonishing considering the relative price differential.

Thanks for this - most useful. I've been wondering about this one. I'll head straight to the Troel's shootout instead of bed reading ;-) . I might take a plunge with the Valab.

[martinswimmer]

From Troel's link - "But still, the Valab is doing better than anything else I've heard before the 912 and Grail. Highly recommended! For the money a total steal." Indeed, a rave review!

[farflungstar]

I second Toms opinion about the Vida. I love it ++

[bbbiker800]

I've come across that one and seems like a great deal for the money. Would you say that the sound is characteristically "LCR" or the difference is just what one would expect between different phono stages?

HI Martin - it's dangerous for me to say that it is typically LCR as the Lounge is the 1st of its type I've owned!! . All my previous stages ranged from budget - Project, Slee, MF to a more expensive Leema. The Lounge is comfortably better than those. Compared to the MF there is more detail and realism; more bass and much better separation and depth of image. Voices have a little more warmth but the top end is not at all tiring. So, yes I'm keeping mine. Worth noting it's poor out of the box but it steadily improves with more hours - it needs around 40hrs and then over time you notice small improvements - I'm roughly at 60+hrs. They also do a 'Gold' and I think they are working on a tube version.

[montesquieu]

I'm not sure there is a "typical LCR" sound. The technology required to perform RIAA equalisation is basically simple - it's a curve with three "corners", and only first-order filters. A first order filter has a slope of 6dB/octave and can be made with a resistor and a capacitor, or with a resistor and an inductor. Probably 99% of all the phonostages ever made have filters made with resistors and capacitors. The rest of the phonostage's technology could be based on valves, or bipolar transistors, or op-amps, or FETs, or any combination of any of those. The EQ could be in a feedback loop or not in a feedback loop; it could be implemented as one filter network or split into two or three networks. Basically, the number of possible combinations of circuit elements and design approaches is enormous. Among the hundreds (or more likely hundreds of thousands) of possible design choices there is LCR vs. CR. I think it would be very difficult to hear a "sonic footprint" from adopting LCR amongst all the other design choices.
Tim de Paravicini used inductors in his RIAA eq networks as long ago as the 1990s (or earlier?) but most people have avoided them due to the range of difficulties that they present - weight, cost, size, tolerance etc. Anyway, now the term "LCR" has become a marketing tool recently. That's fair enough: with so many phonostages on the market you have to do whatever you can to make yours stand out from the crowd.
Personally, I don't believe that that one design choice - to use inductors - is the silver bullet which produces vastly superior phonostages.

Indeed it has been something of a badge or differentiator, I guess encouraged by the fact that many of the recently released phono stages boasting LCR have been high end and expensive eg the Vida, Zanden or some Allnic models. (The Lounge was the first LCR phono stage I'm aware off at the 'affordable' end of the market, and the Valab is only the second).

By contrast, the EAR 912 has been an LCR phono stage since its release nearly 20 years ago, as was the earlier 88PB (no surprise really as Tim de P is known for his custom wound transformers - incorporating high-quality inductors is probably straightforward for him than for any other manufacturer currently) but you have to look inside and view the inductors to confirm that, and it's not in any of the sales literature relating to either model. Maybe it should be! (The phono stages in the 88PB and 912 do differ BTW with the 88PB being a hybrid valve + FET, and later the 912 all-valve).

Personally (and having been through quite a few phono stages) I'm quite enamoured of the LCR approach, though totally take Andrew's point that it's all round execution that matters, not any specific technology. I clipped this summary from the web:

In analog history, nearly every commercial phono stage has been based on using RC filters to achieve RIAA equalization. An RC filter is one that uses resistors and capacitors to achieve each of the three 6db per octave "shelves" in the frequency response that constitute an RIAA correction. Most such RC-based RIAA networks require the use of a fairly high value resistor in series with the phono signal coming out of the first gain stage. And some require the use of at least one capacitor in series with the signal, as well. The advantage of an LCR network, used to achieve the exact same RIAA correction, is that it places only an inductor in series with the system, which has very low DC resistance compared to the resistor mandated in RC type RIAA networks. Capacitors and resistors are used as well, but all of these are in parallel with the signal, connected to ground. Theoretically that does less "damage" to the signal, where "damage" can mean different things to different audiophiles. Proponents of LCR type RIAA correction circuits believe that they sound better, pure and simple. However, implementing such a network presents a lot of problems to the designer. Thus = expensive.

Certainly the Lounge Audio and the Valab appear to be attempts to disprove the latter statement and at least in the case of the Valab, to rave reviews. (I have heard variable reports about the Lounge Audio - Petrat had one for a bit).

[martinswimmer]

Personally, I don't believe that that one design choice - to use inductors - is the silver bullet which produces vastly superior phonostages.

Thanks Andrew. You're absolutely right about this being a new marketing acronym. In any case, on the strength of the Troel's review (and correspondence with Tom), I've ordered the Valab. I'll report back!

[Bigman80]

Thanks Andrew. You're absolutely right about this being a new marketing acronym. In any case, on the strength of the Troel's review (and correspondence with Tom), I've ordered the Valab. I'll report back!Yes! I've been waiting for someone to get one of these and do a write-up!!

More power to you.

[martinswimmer]

Yes! I've been waiting for someone to get one of these and do a write-up!!

More power to you.

Might need to hire a ghost writer for the review ;-) . My system is such a patchwork of things that any sound character can be attributed to anything in the chain...

[GJO]

I have had the Vida and a home built unit with a parts cost of 6.5K at my place,I would have liked to spend more time with them as bake off's aren't the best situations for a proper listen,but they both sounded rather special.

[Bigman80]

Might need to hire a ghost writer for the review ;-) . My system is such a patchwork of things that any sound character can be attributed to anything in the chain...Lol,

[bbbiker800]

The Valeb consists of a lot of kit/components for the money and yes it does seem to be a steal at that price. The write up seems extraordinary given the competition it faced.

The Lounge on the other hand is very well reviewed but it is a US budget phono priced at $300. In the UK its - not unsurprisingly - a rather more expensive £500. But I didn't pay that !. That said, the cost for the sound improvements I'd gained made it good value for me.

I'd be very interested to hear any reports made about the Valeb performance

Nice choice :)

[montesquieu]

This is the same argument that says that one out of the two resistors that form a potential divider is more important than the other. I don't buy it - it doesn't make any sense from an engineering point of view or any other point of view, except that of the novice looking at a circuit diagram without understanding it.
I'm not saying that LCR phonostages can't be fabulous - I've no doubt they can be - just that it isn't the LCR bit per se that makes them fabulous.

Nevertheless, the best phono stages I've heard out of rather a lot of them have been LCR, independent of whether valve or solid state (a surprise to me as a valve fan) ... perhaps it's just not worth the effort in trying to solve the engineering problems in creating one if you aren't also shooting for the high end? Custom-wound inductors themselves are quite a big statement, when a LR phono stage can be done with standard components off the shelf. Have you had a crack at one yourself?

[Barry]

Nevertheless, the best phono stages I've heard out of rather a lot of them have been LCR, independent of whether valve or solid state (a surprise to me as a valve fan) ... perhaps it's just not worth the effort in trying to solve the engineering problems in creating one if you aren't also shooting for the high end? Custom-wound inductors themselves are quite a big statement, when a LR phono stage can be done with standard components off the shelf. Have you had a crack at one yourself?

Regardless of the sonic benefits, or otherwise of using LCR networks to achieve RIAA equalisation, the fact that in order to reproduce the playback curve to a sufficient degree of accuracy (within 0.5dB at least) means not only do the components not have 'standard' values, but they have to be made to a high tolerance. This will automatically make any equalisation circuits employing inductors expensive. This problem is compounded in that the two channels must track one another, again to within 0.2dB or better.

[martinswimmer]

Another well reviewed LCR phono stage - Remton LCR from Czech Republic:
http://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/remton-lcr-mk2-phono-stage

[Bigman80]

£4000+ ! Jesus. If that Valab is any good, you should have a bonafide bargain.

Fingers crossed.

[martinswimmer]

£4000+ ! Jesus. If that Valab is any good, you should have a bonafide bargain.

Fingers crossed.

Remton has glowing tubes inside! A side observation is that everyone seems to be playing Koln Concert when testing phono stages. Out of all Keith's LPs - that's the one I don't have ;-(

[Bigman80]

Remton has glowing tubes inside! A side observation is that everyone seems to be playing Koln Concert when testing phono stages. Out of all Keith's LPs - that's the one I don't have ;-(Well, yes, valves for me are the best way although others will disagree.

It looks a good unit. Hopefully the Valab is up to the task. Personally, I always buy a new LP to try things out. Go buy it [emoji6]

[martinswimmer]

Well, yes, valves for me are the best way although others will disagree.

It looks a good unit. Hopefully the Valab is up to the task. Personally, I always buy a new LP to try things out. Go buy it [emoji6]

New LP? That would be a real treat. Last time I purchased a brand new record was about 15 years ago and that was Hunky Dory 220g re-issue.

[montesquieu]

Well, yes, valves for me are the best way although others will disagree.

That was always my view on phono stages till I heard the Vida - which is also over £4k now, though in my view you also have to figure in a decent SUT as well.

Incidentally, Allnic is up to double that (and no better in my view though I can't remember which was the model I heard), for the Zandens, five figures minimum, and the new retail on the EAR 912 is over five figures too, though that is also a full feature line stage along with its two-arm LCR phono section + quality four-ratio SUT... so yes, the Valab does indeed seem like a bargain in this company.

Remton is a new on on me (nice find!) and would appear to be respectable value for a tubed LCR phono stage, though as the author suggests, I'd be tempted in this case to buy the MM version and select my own SUT as the ratios provided internally don't really suit what I need in my setup. Would probably suit most though.

[Bigman80]

That was always my view on phono stages till I heard the Vida - which is also over £4k now, though in my view you also have to figure in a decent SUT as well.

Incidentally, Allnic is up to double that (and no better in my view though I can't remember which was the model I heard), for the Zandens, five figures minimum, and the new retail on the EAR 912 is over five figures too, though that is also a full feature line stage along with its two-arm LCR phono section + quality four-ratio SUT... so yes, the Valab does indeed seem like a bargain in this company.

Remton is a new on on me (nice find!) and would appear to be respectable value for a tubed LCR phono stage, though as the author suggests, I'd be tempted in this case to buy the MM version and select my own SUT as the ratios provided internally don't really suit what I need in my setup. Would probably suit most though.The Vida is something I'd love to try at home. I'll never buy one but just to see how it sounds here would be very interesting.

[speedracer]

I have heard the Vida a few times now & I agree it is very, very good, but I have a modified Art Audio Vinyl One Reference that really does it for me, it sounds lithe with lots of air between instruments which to me is beguiling, probably helped by the fact my amp is a Art Audio Quintet, also heavily modded. I was seriously contemplating the Vida until I found a couple of wee problems with both that were sorted easily & quickly by Graeme (Valve bloke), & now the overall sound is sublime & more than good enough for me. The V1 also isn't cheap, not far off the Vida in term of price, at least with the spec mine has, but it is a keeper for sure, lottery win excepted!

[Bigman80]

I have heard the Vida a few times now & I agree it is very, very good, but I have a modified Art Audio Vinyl One Reference that really does it for me, it sounds lithe with lots of air between instruments which to me is beguiling, probably helped by the fact my amp is a Art Audio Quintet, also heavily modded. I was seriously contemplating the Vida until I found a couple of wee problems with both that were sorted easily & quickly by Graeme (Valve bloke), & now the overall sound is sublime & more than good enough for me. The V1 also isn't cheap, not far off the Vida in term of price, at least with the spec mine has, but it is a keeper for sure, lottery win excepted!It's not a model I'm familiar withe but at those prices, I'm not surprised lol

[montesquieu]

It's not a model I'm familiar withe but at those prices, I'm not surprised lol

I had a Vinyl One for a bit too, it was a lovely phono stage. Not so expensive in those days (back in the 00s) I think I paid about a grand second-hand for it (off the Wam if I'm not mistaken).

[Marra]

There is a diy version but have no idea how it sounds.

http://www.pmillett.com/LR_phono.html

[martinswimmer]

There is a diy version but have no idea how it sounds.

http://www.pmillett.com/LR_phono.html

There's a list of parts:
http://www.pmillett.com/file_downloads/lr_phono_BOM.pdf

and the grand total of $175 + the PCBs - got to be worth giving it a shot!

[Bigman80]

Shit. I quite fancy this project.

Where's the link to buy the PCBs?

[montesquieu]

Shit. I quite fancy this project.

Where's the link to buy the PCBs?

Looks cool .. and he explains it well, even an electronics numpty like me kind of managed to follow ... nice to see Cinemag doing an appropriate inductor, at a number that won't break the bank. This would be an interesting project to follow.

[Bigman80]

Looks cool .. and he explains it well, even an electronics numpty like me kind of managed to follow ... nice to see Cinemag doing an appropriate inductor, at a number that won't break the bank. This would be an interesting project to follow.Yep, I'm looking into it. Biggest problem seems to be that the PCBs are in America which is no problem at all!

[Marra]

That's piqued folks interest:D

[martinswimmer]

That's piqued folks interest:D

Red-blooded males all eventually want to settle down and build a phono stage.

[Mike Adams]

I too own a Art Audio Vinyl One which Ive had upgraded...Its a great phono stage for sure...Ive also tried a VIDA from Guy which I thought was very good too. (I was using both with separate SUT units which can be/was an improvement in my system)

For me the Vinyl One had a bit more body to the sound/3D-ness, the VIDA more detail-possibly more neutral.

Ive also had one of Simon Shilton's LCR phono stages which I really liked, and may have been the best balance overall-having said that I know Tom from Art Audio had a prototype new phono which I believe uses aspects of the Conductor pre amplifier power supply; Ive not tried this in my system but it sounded great in his system.

I think whilst the methodology is interesting TBH its the implementation that separates the good from the average...

[CornishPasty]

Pete Millett designs and builds some exceptional stuff. He's a top notch engineer.

[Marra]

Waiting on a quote from Cinemag.

[Bigman80]

Waiting on a quote from Cinemag.You going for the DIY? I am sorely tempted but I'm going to re-box the Phonostage I'm using and separate the power supply from the main case instead.

[Marra]

I am just pricing things up at the moment. Had this book marked for a couple of years but as I have four diy phonostages already I keep asking myself do I really need another; but am curious as to how an LCR version would sound.

[Marra]

My error Andrew I stand corrected.

[Barry]

No problem.
BTW, I had a snoop around his site and found this quote relating to a microphone preamp:

"The power supply is, uh, unconventional. What? Who? Me? Yup. A switching supply, generating 6.3V filament voltage and +200V B+ from a 48VDC input. The beauty of switching supplies is that the noise they generate - and yes, they do generate some noise - is at high enough frequency that it's easy to filter, and above the audible range. For a low-level preamp like this I'd rather have a few millivolts of 100kHz than a few millivolts of 60Hz!"

I agree entirely :) Hi frequency noise/ripple is easier to deal with than low frequency noise/ripple. I don't know why switching power supplies get so much stick in audiophile circles.

I think it's because of the 'crap' they put back out into the mains supply and hence back into other audio components.

But you are right - high frequency power supplies were developed for aeronatical use as they would only need smaller and lighter capacitors for filtering. And in the aircraft industry weight is everything.

[disarmamant]

There is a diy version but have no idea how it sounds.

http://www.pmillett.com/LR_phono.html

I built one of these last year. I had to wait for the inductors to be wound by Cinemag, took about two weeks so not too bad.

If you build this you need to order a few more of the AD797 opamps than you need. This is because it’s DC coupled and the opamps have high gain. You need to swap them around in order to get the adjustment for zero DC volts on the output. With some combinations it’s impossible to zero the DC on the outputs.

It’s a nice sounding phono stage, but in the end I found I preferred my valve phono.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[disarmamant]

The circuit diagram has offset trim adjustment. Doesn't it work properly?

Yes, it does work and you can null the DC offset to near zero, but there is something with the AD797 which in certain combinations the DC offset cannot be nulled. Swapping the Opamps fixes the problem. Its a known problem apparently, hence I ordered a couple of spare’s as advised. I needed to use them.

I think it’s due to the DC coupling and the high gain of the circuit.

There is some discussion about it on the DIY Audio forum.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[sjs]

I too own a Art Audio Vinyl One which Ive had upgraded...Its a great phono stage for sure...Ive also tried a VIDA from Guy which I thought was very good too. (I was using both with separate SUT units which can be/was an improvement in my system)

For me the Vinyl One had a bit more body to the sound/3D-ness, the VIDA more detail-possibly more neutral.

Ive also had one of Simon Shilton's LCR phono stages which I really liked, and may have been the best balance overall-having said that I know Tom from Art Audio had a prototype new phono which I believe uses aspects of the Conductor pre amplifier power supply; Ive not tried this in my system but it sounded great in his system.

I think whilst the methodology is interesting TBH its the implementation that separates the good from the average...Mike

Thanks for the mention, but I just need to clarify that the Model 3 Phono uses a passive CR network for riaa correction. It is a little unusual, in that it uses smaller R and larger C values than many valve Phono amps, but it isn't an LCR network.

There are such a vast array of decisions and balanced compromises that LCR or RC or RL for riaa network is really just one of very many aspects to be considered.




Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[shane]

Nick Gorham (Lurcher on this forum) has produced a rather nice LCR Phono stage...

https://musicfirstaudio.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/pages-from-vol-11-no1-mfa-reference-phono-amplifier.pdf

[Bigman80]

obscene

I want one lol

[Firebottle]

Wise words, as I'm sure you know Andrew the design of a quality phono stage is a juggling act between conflicting requirements.

Which of course makes it so satisfying to realise a set of working compromises that hit the spot. The MFA phono stage has few compromises but that is reflected in the price.
I try to keep things on the simple side where possible.

:)

[Marra]

For anyone who might be considering a diy build. Finally received a reply from Cinemag who have been moving into bigger premises.

CM-2251-1 is $27.14/each + shipping. Priority Mail will be $35.25.

[pure sound]

Just to point out that the Vida is not >£4k but still £3299* I do have a loan unit if anyone wants to try it.

*You can specify it with a black lacquer sleeve, balanced outputs, 2 x MC inputs, a 6 way load selector on MC, etc all of which can add to the basic cost but that remains at £3299.

Aurorasound recently launched a full width 2 chassis design called Vida Supreme which allows various other modules to be specified such as Step Up transformers, Eq for 78's, Inverse RIAA etc but I haven't had one here yet.

[anubisgrau]

Mike

Thanks for the mention, but I just need to clarify that the Model 3 Phono uses a passive CR network for riaa correction. It is a little unusual, in that it uses smaller R and larger C values than many valve Phono amps, but it isn't an LCR network.

There are such a vast array of decisions and balanced compromises that LCR or RC or RL for riaa network is really just one of very many aspects to be considered.




isn't a classic shishido LCR circuit notorious for a very very large capacitor there?

[Firebottle]

Yes a 5 uF or thereabouts. However the network is a low impedance so has to be used in a circuit with sufficient 'drive' that negates any problem of a large C value.
As Steve is implying it's 'horses for courses' with the design choices.

[pure sound]

Certainly easier to drive a 600R network with solid state or use a higher impedance network if a valve stage will be driving it.

[IslandPink]

I was at Euro Triode Fest in 2005 and heard about 25 phono stages in the shoot-out. At the end I think there were 4 LCR phonos and Allen Wright's differential ( balanced ) RC-based phono in the final selection. All of the LCR phonos had a special sort of integration between bass and mids in terms of tone and dynamics which wasn't apparent in any RC RIAA stage apart from Allen's. You can hear that in Lurcher's unit as well. It's to do with how the first driver stage is loaded by the RIAA and how it affects phase. I have all the bits to build a phono something like Nick's using 1.5k units from Dave Slagle, but have got somewhat bogged-down in speakers :o(