Denon DL 103 Pro

[Boyse6748]

Well, for those who have not heard the cartridge (as it’s a Japan only cartridge) I would advise you to try.

This cartridge has been sitting on the shelf for some months and then last week, I thought .... I’ll give it a try.

Firstly, for the price point of £400 is beats just about anything I’ve ever owned at many times the cost.

I can’t really explain what it’s doing but it’s so sweet... a real foot tapping piece of kit.

Only 40 hours or so into the listening mode and it keeps getting better and better!!! It’s more musical then I can ever explain and plays just about anything from female jazz vocal to heavy rock and any other type of music you can think of.

Knocked out to say the least !!!

For those of you that may be lost in the wilderness of what to try next.....go for this superb cartridge.

It’s not the end goal in ultimate refinement.... but does it play music...... to enjoy.....”YES IT DOES”.

Peter


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[karma67]

i wonder how it compares to the denon 103sa,i agree with you findings,theres something about denons that just hits the spot.

[Boyse6748]

Hi Jamie, I’ve never heard any other Denon Cartridges so I can’t really comment.... but this one has knocked me out... just Stunning (that’s if you like music) and not Hi-Fi!!!!


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[Marco]

Not at all surprised (as I've had one in the past and know all about its heritage), so enjoy listening to music, Peter, through a cartridge that's been voiced to make vinyl sound like vinyl, not like (bad) CD! ;)

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

Well, for those who have not heard the cartridge (as it’s a Japan only cartridge) I would advise you to try.

This cartridge has been sitting on the shelf for some months and then last week, I thought .... I’ll give it a try.

Firstly, for the price point of £400 is beats just about anything I’ve ever owned at many times the cost.

I can’t really explain what it’s doing but it’s so sweet... a real foot tapping piece of kit.

Only 40 hours or so into the listening mode and it keeps getting better and better!!! It’s more musical then I can ever explain and plays just about anything from female jazz vocal to heavy rock and any other type of music you can think of.

Knocked out to say the least !!!

For those of you that may be lost in the wilderness of what to try next.....go for this superb cartridge.

It’s not the end goal in ultimate refinement.... but does it play music...... to enjoy.....”YES IT DOES”.

Peter


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

How is Denon DL 103 Pro different from vanilla Denon DL 103? What's the price difference, and does anyone know what's the best way to purchase it in Canada?

[Boyse6748]

I really don’t know what the differences are between the two cartridges or the price difference, perhaps you can read some reviews. All I know is that the Pro is really something special at the price pint mentioned. Something you will not regret.

Available direct from Japan although I have seen a couple available within the UK.

Sorry I can’t be more helpful..... perhaps others can advise.

Peter


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[Boyse6748]

Sorry for the typo..... that was meant to be Price Point.


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[Svend N]

Alex -- There are a few companies that take a plain, stock 103 and hot rod it by putting it in another body, and maybe do other tweaks to it. There's even a Canadian firm that does this -- they made The Absolute Sound's editor's choice list, who raved about it. Can't recall their name off-hand, but if you're interested I will look in that TAS issue....I think it's still in one of our WC librarys :) Let me know...

Svend

[magiccarpetride]

Alex -- There are a few companies that take a plain, stock 103 and hot rod it by putting it in another body, and maybe do other tweaks to it. There's even a Canadian firm that does this -- they made The Absolute Sound's editor's choice list, who raved about it. Can't recall their name off-hand, but if you're interested I will look in that TAS issue....I think it's still in one of our WC librarys :) Let me know...

Svend

Thanks Svend, I'm keen on anything that could improve the already great DL-103 experience :)

[magiccarpetride]

Alex -- There are a few companies that take a plain, stock 103 and hot rod it by putting it in another body, and maybe do other tweaks to it. There's even a Canadian firm that does this -- they made The Absolute Sound's editor's choice list, who raved about it. Can't recall their name off-hand, but if you're interested I will look in that TAS issue....I think it's still in one of our WC librarys :) Let me know...

Svend

Just checked -- ZU only ships within the US. Bummer!

[Svend N]

It wasn't Zu I was thinking of, it was these guys out of Montreal: https://www.audiomusikraft.com

And my mistake, it was Stereophile that has it on their recommended components list, not TAS. Check out the reviews page on the AMK website....

Not sure if this one is there, but here is a rather long and very thorough review: https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/musikraft-denon-dl-103-phonograph-cartridge/

Edit: it looks like you can buy either a new DL-103 or the DL-103R preinstalled in a new shell, or buy just the shell and do the install yourself with your own cart. Not sure if you can send them your existing cart and have them move it over to a new shell...worth checking out. The reviews are quite glowing, it seems.

Edit 2: Peter, forgive me for hijacking your thread. I posted the above info here in the event that the 103 Pro was unobtainable, and a possible alternative was sought. Hope this helps someone... Didn't intend to take away from your recommendation of the Pro.

[Marco]

Hi Alex,


How is Denon DL 103 Pro different from vanilla Denon DL 103?

The DL-103 Pro is essentially a stock DL-103 that has been specially modified by a small group of Ex-Denon employees, making cartridges, SUTs, etc, under the company name of Highphonic. And the 'Pro' is used in Japan at some radio stations for broadcasting purposes.

These guys really know what they're doing, having had lots of experience with Denon cartridges, so know how to get the best out of them. I believe that judicious changes are applied to the suspension system and compliance, but contrary to what is often said, Highphonic do not fit the cartridge with an elliptical stylus. The 103 Pro has the same conical (spherical) stylus as the stock DL-103.

However, the modifications undertaken cause some critical changes to the electrical characteristics of the cartridge, which you'll see below. if you compare the spec of the 'Pro' version against that of the stock model. I've emboldened the key differences, which result in the improved sound heard.

103 Pro:

・Output voltage: 0.25mV
・Compliance 6 x 10-6 cm/dyne
・Stylus: 16.5 micron round tip
・Frequency response: 20Hz - 55kHz
・Impedance: 38 ohm
・Tracking force: 1.8 - 2.4g
・Weight: 8.5g

Stock DL-103:

Output: 0.3 mV

Output Impedance: 40 ohms

Stylus: 16.5 Micron round tip

Frequency range: 20 Hz to 45 kHz

Tracking force: 2.3~2.7g

Compliance 5 x 10-6 cm/dyne

Weight: 8.5g.

The slightly lower output (less coil turns) and notably the extended high-frequency response, coupled with lower impedance, will combine to increase clarity and 'airiness' at the top end, whilst improving midrange lucidity.

I've used both cartridges extensively, and the 'Pro' version is notably superior, so I'm not surprised Peter is raving about it!

It won't be quite as good as a 103SA, simply because the 'Pro' is still housed in the stock plastic body shell, but it's not far off and has a charm and desirable sonic attributes of its own. No other DL-103 sounds quite like it.

Essentially, it performs like a cartridge costing around three times more than it does, and like most other 'race-tuned' 103s, is a serious bargain. Hope this helps :cool:

Marco.

[montesquieu]

Hi Alex,



The DL-103 Pro is essentially a stock DL-103 that has been specially modified by a small group of Ex-Denon employees, making cartridges, SUTs, etc, under the company name of Highphonic. And the 'Pro' is used in Japan at some radio stations for broadcasting purposes.

These guys really know what they're doing, having had lots of experience with Denon cartridges, so know how to get the best out of them. I believe that judicious changes are applied to the suspension system and compliance, but contrary to what is often said, Highphonic do not fit the cartridge with an elliptical stylus. The 103 Pro has the same conical (spherical) stylus as the stock DL-103.

However, the modifications undertaken cause some critical changes to the electrical characteristics of the cartridge, which you'll see below. if you compare the spec of the 'Pro' version against that of the stock model. I've emboldened the key differences, which result in the improved sound heard.

103 Pro:

・Output voltage: 0.25mV
・Compliance 6 x 10-6 cm/dyne
・Stylus: 16.5 micron round tip
・Frequency response: 20Hz - 55kHz
・Impedance: 38 ohm
・Tracking force: 1.8 - 2.4g
・Weight: 8.5g

Stock DL-103:

Output: 0.3 mV

Output Impedance: 40 ohms

Stylus: 16.5 Micron round tip

Frequency range: 20 Hz to 45 kHz

Tracking force: 2.3~2.7g

Compliance 5 x 10-6 cm/dyne

Weight: 8.5g.

The slightly lower output (less coil turns) and notably the extended high-frequency response, coupled with lower impedance, will combine to increase clarity and 'airiness' at the top end, whilst improving midrange lucidity.

I've used both cartridges extensively, and the 'Pro' version is notably superior, so I'm not surprised Peter is raving about it!

It won't be quite as good as a 103SA, simply because the 'Pro' is still housed in the stock plastic body shell, but it's not far off and has a charm and desirable sonic attributes of its own. No other DL-103 sounds quite like it.

Essentially, it performs like a cartridge costing around three times more than it does, and like most other 'race-tuned' 103s, is a serious bargain. Hope this helps :cool:

Marco.

Also worth noting that these compliance figures are at 100hz, not the more usual 10hz, so are more like 12-14hz in the normal measurement. Still low compliance but not ultra-low compliance requiring very heavy tonearms of 30g+.

[magiccarpetride]

Hi Alex,



The DL-103 Pro is essentially a stock DL-103 that has been specially modified by a small group of Ex-Denon employees, making cartridges, SUTs, etc, under the company name of Highphonic. And the 'Pro' is used in Japan at some radio stations for broadcasting purposes.

These guys really know what they're doing, having had lots of experience with Denon cartridges, so know how to get the best out of them. I believe that judicious changes are applied to the suspension system and compliance, but contrary to what is often said, Highphonic do not fit the cartridge with an elliptical stylus. The 103 Pro has the same conical (spherical) stylus as the stock DL-103.

However, the modifications undertaken cause some critical changes to the electrical characteristics of the cartridge, which you'll see below. if you compare the spec of the 'Pro' version against that of the stock model. I've emboldened the key differences, which result in the improved sound heard.

103 Pro:

・Output voltage: 0.25mV
・Compliance 6 x 10-6 cm/dyne
・Stylus: 16.5 micron round tip
・Frequency response: 20Hz - 55kHz
・Impedance: 38 ohm
・Tracking force: 1.8 - 2.4g
・Weight: 8.5g

Stock DL-103:

Output: 0.3 mV

Output Impedance: 40 ohms

Stylus: 16.5 Micron round tip

Frequency range: 20 Hz to 45 kHz

Tracking force: 2.3~2.7g

Compliance 5 x 10-6 cm/dyne

Weight: 8.5g.

The slightly lower output (less coil turns) and notably the extended high-frequency response, coupled with lower impedance, will combine to increase clarity and 'airiness' at the top end, whilst improving midrange lucidity.

I've used both cartridges extensively, and the 'Pro' version is notably superior, so I'm not surprised Peter is raving about it!

It won't be quite as good as a 103SA, simply because the 'Pro' is still housed in the stock plastic body shell, but it's not far off and has a charm and desirable sonic attributes of its own. No other DL-103 sounds quite like it.

Essentially, it performs like a cartridge costing around three times more than it does, and like most other 'race-tuned' 103s, is a serious bargain. Hope this helps :cool:

Marco.

Thanks Marco, this is really helpful. Do you happen to know the price difference? I tried to google it to no avail.

[Marco]

There's a significant difference in cost, as one would expect. Stock DL-103:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DENON-DL-103-0-3-mV-Low-Output-MC-Cartridge-MADE-IN-JAPAN/282829427364?epid=2255426831&hash=item41d9f292a4:g:ln8AAOSwSlBYvoCw

DL-103Pro:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HIGHPHONIC-MC-Cartridge-DL-103-PRO-Free-Shipping-EMS-Tracking-Number/262900362432?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SI M%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D47301%26meid%3De4346276fee348e1 ad4b0712ee910492%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6 %26sd%3D262900364341%26itm%3D262900362432&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1

The latter can vary considerably, though. I've seen them sell for less, but also considerably more, depending on the vendor. For a genuine one, always look for the distinctive red ink marks [and sticker on the outside of the box], which denote that the cartridge has been modified by Highphonic.

Marco.

[paulf-2007]

Hi Alex,



The DL-103 Pro is essentially a stock DL-103 that has been specially modified by a small group of Ex-Denon employees, making cartridges, SUTs, etc, under the company name of Highphonic. And the 'Pro' is used in Japan at some radio stations for broadcasting purposes.

These guys really know what they're doing, having had lots of experience with Denon cartridges, so know how to get the best out of them. I believe that judicious changes are applied to the suspension system and compliance, but contrary to what is often said, Highphonic do not fit the cartridge with an elliptical stylus. The 103 Pro has the same conical (spherical) stylus as the stock DL-103.

However, the modifications undertaken cause some critical changes to the electrical characteristics of the cartridge, which you'll see below. if you compare the spec of the 'Pro' version against that of the stock model. I've emboldened the key differences, which result in the improved sound heard.

103 Pro:

・Output voltage: 0.25mV
・Compliance 6 x 10-6 cm/dyne
・Stylus: 16.5 micron round tip
・Frequency response: 20Hz - 55kHz
・Impedance: 38 ohm
・Tracking force: 1.8 - 2.4g
・Weight: 8.5g

Stock DL-103:

Output: 0.3 mV

Output Impedance: 40 ohms

Stylus: 16.5 Micron round tip

Frequency range: 20 Hz to 45 kHz

Tracking force: 2.3~2.7g

Compliance 5 x 10-6 cm/dyne

Weight: 8.5g.

The slightly lower output (less coil turns) and notably the extended high-frequency response, coupled with lower impedance, will combine to increase clarity and 'airiness' at the top end, whilst improving midrange lucidity.

I've used both cartridges extensively, and the 'Pro' version is notably superior, so I'm not surprised Peter is raving about it!

It won't be quite as good as a 103SA, simply because the 'Pro' is still housed in the stock plastic body shell, but it's not far off and has a charm and desirable sonic attributes of its own. No other DL-103 sounds quite like it.

Essentially, it performs like a cartridge costing around three times more than it does, and like most other 'race-tuned' 103s, is a serious bargain. Hope this helps :cool:

Marco.ah, saw two on eBay with the name highphonic, wondered what that was all about.

[argyle]

I love the Denon range - there is just something about them.

[Boyse6748]

I love the Denon range - there is just something about them.

I’ll have a last rant as Marco said. It’s been snowing heavily today, so boredom and real interest has set in.

I bit of a collector of cartridges... so thought I would try them all.

First up The Benz Wood. My long time love affair.... nice, detailed and all them bits you expect!!! From a cartridge of this class.

Next up The AT 33 Sa ..... not really a fair test, as it’s only had 10 hours or so play time but equally as detailed and the Shabtai profile pulls out what ever is in the groove. (Nice)

Last cartridge.... the ZYX Airy S (3k) had this for some while and sort of loved it. (As I thought it was the best cartridge man had ever made).

Well, I can assure you.... the Denon Pro puts them all to bed..... not in pure detail.. or intimacy but in ......pure musically,. for £400 it makes you listen to record after record.

Sometimes I just hate what Hi-Fi is suppose to be about.

Surprised to say the least!!!

My advice..... if you can find one ..... get it!!! (Something you wont regret).

Peter




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[magiccarpetride]

I’ll have a last rant as Marco said. It’s been snowing heavily today, so boredom and real interest has set in.

I bit of a collector of cartridges... so thought I would try them all.

First up The Benz Wood. My long time love affair.... nice, detailed and all them bits you expect!!! From a cartridge of this class.

Next up The AT 33 Sa ..... not really a fair test, as it’s only had 10 hours or so play time but equally as detailed and the Shabtai profile pulls out what ever is in the groove. (Nice)

Last cartridge.... the ZYX Airy S (3k) had this for some while and sort of loved it. (As I thought it was the best cartridge man had ever made).

Well, I can assure you.... the Denon Pro puts them all to bed..... not in pure detail.. or intimacy but in ......pure musically,. for £400 it makes you listen to record after record.

Sometimes I just hate what Hi-Fi is suppose to be about.

Surprised to say the least!!!

My advice..... if you can find one ..... get it!!! (Something you wont regret).

Peter




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You got me salivating. But since I have Rega RB300 tonearm, would Denon Pro be an acceptable fit for that arm, or is it again the same struggle as with DL-103?

[magiccarpetride]

There's a significant difference in cost, as one would expect. Stock DL-103:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DENON-DL-103-0-3-mV-Low-Output-MC-Cartridge-MADE-IN-JAPAN/282829427364?epid=2255426831&hash=item41d9f292a4:g:ln8AAOSwSlBYvoCw

DL-103Pro:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HIGHPHONIC-MC-Cartridge-DL-103-PRO-Free-Shipping-EMS-Tracking-Number/262900362432?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SI M%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D47301%26meid%3De4346276fee348e1 ad4b0712ee910492%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6 %26sd%3D262900364341%26itm%3D262900362432&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1

The latter can vary considerably, though. I've seen them sell for less, but also considerably more, depending on the vendor. For a genuine one, always look for the distinctive red ink marks [and sticker on the outside of the box], which denote that the cartridge has been modified by Highphonic.

Marco.

Thanks Marco. Would this item be a genuine Denon Pro?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253455492259?ViewItem=&item=253455492259

[karma67]

as marco has said in the past,you need the right arm for the denon to get the best from it,i use a 16 gram effective mass tonearm,on paper it should be fine but to get it singing i still had to add 3.5 grams of mass at the headshell.
i tried different weights,with 8 grams it sounded good but the bass was bloated and the top end rolled off, 3 grams seems to balance everything just right.

once you have this its bloody marvelous,it really is the best musical cartridge ive owned to date,its stopped me wanted to chase micro detail and fancy tipped cartridges.

[Boyse6748]

You got me salivating. But since I have Rega RB300 tonearm, would Denon Pro be an acceptable fit for that arm, or is it again the same struggle as with DL-103?

Can’t really say if this cartridge is arm dependent? Mines being played on the Dynavector 507 Mk II ,??
I think this may work on any arm!! But can’t confirm, unless others are more knowledgeable than I .

Peter


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[Marco]

as marco has said in the past,you need the right arm for the denon to get the best from it...

And unfortunately for Alex (who asked earlier), an RB300 isn't it...

Marco.

[Svend N]

And unfortunately for Alex (who asked earlier), an RB300 isn't it...

Marco.

Should be OK with a headshell weight, no? Say 5g or so, to boost eff. mass to about 16g?

[Marco]

No, unfortunately there's more to it than just the mass factor. The design of the Rega arm itself isn't best suited to the 103, which prefers a 'lossy' style of arm (typical Jap style with detachable headshell), due to the amount of energy it puts into it.

Marco.

[walpurgis]

I have never obtained a sound I've been entirely happy with using an MC in a Rega arm. Even with added headshell mass.

It's a different story with MM's, that seems to work well enough.

[montesquieu]

I have never obtained a sound I've been entirely happy with using an MC in a Rega arm. Even with added headshell mass.

It's a different story with MM's, that seems to work well enough.

Totally agree with this.

[magiccarpetride]

And unfortunately for Alex (who asked earlier), an RB300 isn't it...

Marco.

Well, considering how much over the moon I am right now with my DL-103, to learn that a more suitable tonearm can make things even better makes me super excited.

So back to my previous question (in another thread): now that I've tackled some of the weak spots on my Systemdek IIX (removed the bottom platter, applied dynamat dampening to the inner sides of plinth and on parts of the meta chassis), should my next upgrade then be the tonearm? Is that now the biggest bang for the buck? Rather than chasing after another cartridge, or another phono preamp, is the most reasonable step replacing Rega RB300 with Jelco arm, for example?

[Boyse6748]

Well, considering how much over the moon I am right now with my DL-103, to learn that a more suitable tonearm can make things even better makes me super excited.

So back to my previous question (in another thread): now that I've tackled some of the weak spots on my Systemdek IIX (removed the bottom platter, applied dynamat dampening to the inner sides of plinth and on parts of the meta chassis), should my next upgrade then be the tonearm? Is that now the biggest bang for the buck? Rather than chasing after another cartridge, or another phono preamp, is the most reasonable step replacing Rega RB300 with Jelco arm, for example?

Yes indeed... go for the best arm you can afford. “There are many”, favourites that others can advise. Then.... it limits you to nothing.

Happy days.

Peter


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[magiccarpetride]

Yes indeed... go for the best arm you can afford. “There are many”, favourites that others can advise. Then.... it limits you to nothing.

Happy days.

Peter


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This one would be within my budget:

https://www.canadianhifi.com/products/jelco-sa-750d-9-tonearm

Not sure if 9" is appropriate length for my Systemdek?

[Boyse6748]

This one would be within my budget:

https://www.canadianhifi.com/products/jelco-sa-750d-9-tonearm

Not sure if 9" is appropriate length for my Systemdek?

Nice arm. Just make Sure it’s a match to you system deck.... don’t forget the import duty costs AND TAX costs as well. Which may well be +40%

Perhaps you could do better with a purchase in the UK.

Peter


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[karma67]

He’s in Canada

[magiccarpetride]

Nice arm. Just make Sure it’s a match to you system deck.... don’t forget the import duty costs AND TAX costs as well. Which may well be +40%

Perhaps you could do better with a purchase in the UK.

Peter


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No worries, this is a free shipping deal since I live in Canada.

How difficult would it be for me to install Jelco SA-750D 9" on my Systemdek? Is it doable, or do I have to take it to the dealer?

[Boyse6748]

Ha ha ...sorry? Just trying to keep you financially safe.


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[magiccarpetride]

Ha ha ...sorry? Just trying to keep you financially safe.


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Thank you :)

Here is the dilemma I'm faced with right now: should I upgrade to Jelco SA-750D tonearm or to Denon DL-103 Pro? The prices are similar, I'm just not sure which upgrade will give me more bang for the buck (don't have the funds for both at this time).

[Boyse6748]

Alex, if finances are an issue right now, I don’t think you really have a choice right now.... it has to be the arm upgrade as the Denon 103 Pro won’t really be matched to the RB300.

What I would do, is to take advice from others on this forum as to whether the proposed arm will fit on the System deck, or any any options that may be suitable.... with a mind to procure the Denon 103 Pro at a later date.

Wish I could be more helpful but I’m sure there are others that will advise sensibly!!!

It’s a difficult call.... sorry.

Peter


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[magiccarpetride]

Alex, if finances are an issue right now, I don’t think you really have a choice right now.... it has to be the arm upgrade as the Denon 103 Pro won’t really be matched to the RB300.

What I would do, is to take advice from others on this forum as to whether the proposed arm will fit on the System deck, or any any options that may be suitable.... with a mind to procure the Denon 103 Pro at a later date.

Wish I could be more helpful but I’m sure there are others that will advise sensibly!!!

It’s a difficult call.... sorry.

Peter


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Sorry to put you on the spot like that. But your advice is solid, Peter.

Although I'm mighty keen on hearing what the fuss with DL-103 Pro is all about, perhaps I wouldn't be able to get much out it if I were to fit it on Rega RB300 arm. So first thing first, I suppose?

[Boyse6748]

Sorry to put you on the spot like that. But your advice is solid, Peter.

Although I'm mighty keen on hearing what the fuss with DL-103 Pro is all about, perhaps I wouldn't be able to get much out it if I were to fit it on Rega RB300 arm. So first thing first, I suppose?

Never want to recommend where I may me wrong ... sorry Alex.

This is what my Denon Pro is currently playing on ...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180302/681111e1b97af712b608c832c505dc8b.jpg


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[paulf-2007]

Never want to recommend where I may me wrong ... sorry Alex.

This is what my Denon Pro is currently playing on ...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180302/681111e1b97af712b608c832c505dc8b.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalkthats the dogs dangly bits Peter

[Boyse6748]

thats the dogs dangly bits Peter

Not the best description I’ve ever heard of the Denon...... but lovely !!!!

Thank you !!!!!!


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[paulf-2007]

Not the best description I’ve ever heard of the Denon...... but lovely !!!!

Thank you !!!!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalki guess a vision of a dogs dangly parts are nothing like your set up but it's not meant to be a description :)
I like the pics of your Denon and mine in the same post, very tasty even if I say so myself

[magiccarpetride]

Never want to recommend where I may me wrong ... sorry Alex.

This is what my Denon Pro is currently playing on ...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180302/681111e1b97af712b608c832c505dc8b.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Jesus, for a moment I thought it's the Terminator! (http://www.trans-fi.com/terminatortonearm.htm)

[Boyse6748]

Jesus, for a moment I thought it's the Terminator! (http://www.trans-fi.com/terminatortonearm.htm)

Or...... a Car Jack !!!! That plays music !


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Chris]

FWIW I had a 103Pro for some time about 10 years ago, bought direct from Juki2 but it never sounded special in my Ittok LVIII but then neither did a 304 either. In fact it wasn´t till I ditched my Black Cube SE and then my Linto and I switched to a valve phono with its obscenely OTT power supply that anything sounded special. I now use a Troika retip and my recently retipped but ancient A&RP77 which gives it a run for its money. Oh dear, wasted youth where art thou ?

[Marco]

Hi Alex,


Here is the dilemma I'm faced with right now: should I upgrade to Jelco SA-750D tonearm or to Denon DL-103 Pro? The prices are similar, I'm just not sure which upgrade will give me more bang for the buck (don't have the funds for both at this time).

Sorry I'm late to this... I know both items intimately well, so feel I could sensibly advise. Before I do that, however, could you remind me again of your current T/T (I know you've got an RB300), cartridge, amp and/or phono stage?

Ta! :cool:

Marco.

[argyle]

I've got the Jelco, had a 103, 130LCII and 301 MK2 and they were all excellent with it. The arm is so universally suitable (!), With the ability to change headshells to suit the cartridge, allowing you to get the effective mass dead on. Where it isn't possible to nail the synergy between the two components, the damping can be played with too.

[magiccarpetride]

Hi Alex,



Sorry I'm late to this... I know both items intimately well, so feel I could sensibly advise. Before I do that, however, could you remind me again of your current T/T (I know you've got an RB300), cartridge, amp and/or phono stage?

Ta! :cool:

Marco.

I'm using a modded (refurbished) TT that looks a lot like Systemdek IIX. The guy who sold it to me called in Frankenstein, because he got it on commission from the original tweaker, but he agrees that it is most likely Systemdek IIX. But looks like the plinth has been upgraded, as well as the top part and the platter.

I've removed the bottom plate and dampened it with Dynamat.

[Marco]

Ok, and what cartridge, amp and/or phono stage have you currently got?

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

Ok, and what cartridge, amp and/or phono stage have you currently got?

Marco.

Denon DL-103, Denon AU-310 SUT, Emotiva XPS-1.

[Arrow]

... I'm keen on anything that could improve the already great DL-103 experience :)

Alex, have you seen this post for a slip over aluminum body. Great upgrade without having to take your cartridge apart.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?57232-Denon-DL103-Aluminum-Body-Caps&p=956266#post956266

[Marco]

Denon DL-103, Denon AU-310 SUT, Emotiva XPS-1.

Apologies again for the tardy reply - too many threads to contribute to! :doh:

In that case, Alex, I'd definitely go for the Jelco, as IMO the RB300 is the weakest link, and the Jelco will release considerably more performance from your existing 103. so that's where the best 'bang for your buck' lies :cool:

Marco.

[Arrow]

Apologies again for the tardy reply - too many threads to contribute to! :doh:

In that case, Alex, I'd definitely go for the Jelco, as IMO the RB300 is the weakest link, and the Jelco will release considerably more performance from your existing 103. so that's where the best 'bang for your buck' lies :cool:

Marco.


Agreed. The RB is a great arm. But if you're in love with the DL103. There is certainly a better match.

[magiccarpetride]

Apologies again for the tardy reply - too many threads to contribute to! :doh:

In that case, Alex, I'd definitely go for the Jelco, as IMO the RB300 is the weakest link, and the Jelco will release considerably more performance from your existing 103. so that's where the best 'bang for your buck' lies :cool:

Marco.

Thanks Marco. Since Rega RB300 is a 9.5'' arm and Jelco is a 9" arm, I'm not sure if I'll be able to swap the tonearms easily on my Systemdek IIX?

[Arrow]

Thanks Marco. Since Rega RB300 is a 9.5'' arm and Jelco is a 9" arm, I'm not sure if I'll be able to swap the tonearms easily on my Systemdek IIX?

Alex, your Systemdek was likely shipped from the factory with a Profile II arm: effective length 228mm. The Jelco SA-750D has an effective length of 229mm. So the deck is likely well suited to the Jelco. The Jelco also has a Linn mounting pattern.

The RB300 has an effective length of 237mm. So, if the previous owner did not alter the deck too much to fit the Rega, likely the Jelco is actually a much better match for the turntable in general...

[Marco]

There you go then! Plus, if you do eventually go for a 103Pro, you'll have the right arm to make the most of it :)

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, your Systemdek was likely shipped from the factory with a Profile II arm: effective length 228mm. The Jelco SA-750D has an effective length of 229mm. So the deck is likely well suited to the Jelco. The Jelco also has a Linn mounting pattern.

The RB300 has an effective length of 237mm. So, if the previous owner did not alter the deck too much to fit the Rega, likely the Jelco is actually a much better match for the turntable in general...

That's great news, thanks!

[magiccarpetride]

There you go then! Plus, if you do eventually go for a 103Pro, you'll have the right arm to make the most of it :)

Marco.

That settles it then. Thanks Marco :)

[bob4333]

Agreed. The RB is a great arm. But if you're in love with the DL103. There is certainly a better match.

I have been intrigued by the Denon 103 and it's variants for years but don't appear to have a compatible arm.

Popular consensus seems to support the Jelco arm. Is this the ideal pairing and spending more brings little or no return, or are there others.........?

[Arrow]

I have been intrigued by the Denon 103 and it's variants for years but don't appear to have a compatible arm.

Popular consensus seems to support the Jelco arm. Is this the ideal pairing and spending more brings little or no return, or are there others.........?

The Jelco is a great arm. I have been extremely happy with my 12" arm from Thomas Schick (http://thomas-schick.com/en/produkte). He also makes 9" arms. very high quality components.

[Svend N]

That settles it then. Thanks Marco :)

Alex, Audio Sensibility is the Cdn importer for Jelco arms, and they were advertising on CAM about some specials on the 700 series due to their being replaced by a newer model. You might want to take a look over at the CAM site for that post.

Good luck!

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, Audio Sensibility is the Cdn importer for Jelco arms, and they were advertising on CAM about some specials on the 700 series due to their being replaced by a newer model. You might want to take a look over at the CAM site for that post.

Good luck!

Thanks Svend. Do you happen to have the link handy?

[Boyse6748]

Thanks guys, but has this thread not detracted from the cartridge!?


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[Barry]

Thanks guys, but has this thread not detracted from the cartridge!?


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It's called thread drift - a common occurence within AoS.

[Boyse6748]

Accepted !!! No problems!!!


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[Svend N]

Thanks guys, but has this thread not detracted from the cartridge!?


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Apologies Peter! Partly my fault.

Alex - PM being sent shortly...

[magiccarpetride]

Apologies Peter! Partly my fault.

Alex - PM being sent shortly...

Thanks Svend, appreciate your help buddy :)

[magiccarpetride]

There you go then! Plus, if you do eventually go for a 103Pro, you'll have the right arm to make the most of it :)

Marco.

Hi Marco,

Right now I have my finger on the trigger, getting THIS close to ordering Denon 103 PRO ($620.00). Please let me know if that is a better call than ZU?

Thanks!

Alex

[Arrow]

Since Alex and I are both in Vancouver, I decided to offer him one of my Aluminium Body Caps to try out on his DL103 and report back. He will be the first RB300 user, so I am very interested in his thoughts.

[Marco]

Hi Alex,


Hi Marco,

Right now I have my finger on the finger, getting THIS close to ordering Denon 103 PRO ($620.00). Please let me know if that is a better call than ZU?


Different flavours, mate. The Zu is very good, but overall will be a bit more 'hi-fi sounding' [etched and crisp] against the 103 Pro's more fluid and mellifluous musical presentation. Depends on what you're looking for.

If were me, I'd go for the Pro, plus one of Steve's excellent body caps, and then bask in vinyl heaven! :cool:

Marco.

[Svend N]

Since Alex and I are both in Vancouver, I decided to offer him one of my Aluminium Body Caps to try out on his DL103 and report back. He will be the first RB300 user, so I am very interested in his thoughts.

Steve, do your caps also increase overall cart/headshell weight enough so that lighter tonearms like the rb300 work better with the 103?

[Arrow]

Steve, do your caps also increase overall cart/headshell weight enough so that lighter tonearms like the rb300 work better with the 103?

Svend, The cap weighs roughly 3.5 grams. So, yes it will allow more arms to work with the cart. The Cap with Cart weighs about 12 grams, the EM of a RB300 is 11.5, so it should put the resonant frequency around 10-11 Hz.

In prototyping the Cap, I worked very hard at using brass in stead of aluminum. However, I just couldn't get the weight down enough for it to be reliable. When they get too heavy, the life just gets sucked out of the sound.

[Boyse6748]

Hi Alex,



Different flavours, mate. The Zu is very good, but overall will be a bit more 'hi-fi sounding' [etched and crisp] against the 103 Pro's more fluid and mellifluous musical presentation. Depends on what you're looking for.

If were me, I'd go for the Pro, plus one of Steve's excellent body caps, and then bask in vinyl heaven! :cool:

Marco.

Never a truer word quoted. Not the most articulate cartridge ever, but certainly the most musical. At the end of the day it is about what does it for you personally.

I would try it without the body cap... but that’s me! As Marco says.....bask in vinyl heaven!!!

I have tried many high end cartridges, many better the Denon Pro for So called Hi-Fi.... but none for shear enjoyment.

Happy days!!


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[Svend N]

Svend, The cap weighs roughly 3.5 grams. So, yes it will allow more arms to work with the cart. The Cap with Cart weighs about 12 grams, the EM of a RB300 is 11.5, so it should put the resonant frequency around 10-11 Hz.

In prototyping the Cap, I worked very hard at using brass in stead of aluminum. However, I just couldn't get the weight down enough for it to be reliable. When they get too heavy, the life just gets sucked out of the sound.

Thanks Steve - very helpful reply. You know, all this talk about the 103 is really making me want to try one myself and hear what all the fuss is about. Once I get my second system set up, that might just be a fun thing to play with.

[Arrow]

Thanks Steve - very helpful reply. You know, all this talk about the 103 is really making me want to try one myself and hear what all the fuss is about. Once I get my second system set up, that might just be a fun thing to play with.

As I mentioned to Alex last night, I always come back to the DL103/r... I've seriously demo'ed about a dozen carts over the past decade: entry level $$$ like Koetsu and Shelter; vintage models like the Grace F9 and Garret Bros; and many other production models. I always came back to the DL103 (my other 'go to' cart is the Audio Technica AT150ANV (MLX will do in a pinch)).

I'll be starting a Trade account for the Body Caps. I will certainly welcome and encourage general DL103 threads.

[magiccarpetride]

Hi Alex,



Different flavours, mate. The Zu is very good, but overall will be a bit more 'hi-fi sounding' [etched and crisp] against the 103 Pro's more fluid and mellifluous musical presentation. Depends on what you're looking for.

If were me, I'd go for the Pro, plus one of Steve's excellent body caps, and then bask in vinyl heaven! :cool:

Marco.

Thanks Marco. I'll be test driving Steve's cap tonight, and will report back.

Yes, I prefer more musical, rather than hi fi sounding presentation. So I'm going for the PRO!

P.S. I have disengaged the spring in my Rega RB300 and already the sound cleared up. I should probably roll up my sleeves and try to remove the spring altogether; people claim that even when disengaged, the spring still vibrates and is interfering with the tonearm. Any comments on this?

[magiccarpetride]

Never a truer word quoted. Not the most articulate cartridge ever, but certainly the most musical. At the end of the day it is about what does it for you personally.

I would try it without the body cap... but that’s me! As Marco says.....bask in vinyl heaven!!!

I have tried many high end cartridges, many better the Denon Pro for So called Hi-Fi.... but none for shear enjoyment.

Happy days!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

To my knowledge, the only two serious complaints about DL-103 are spherical stylus and plastic body. Otherwise, where else can you buy LOMC that goes up to 45 kHz for $250.00?

I'm expecting with Steve's caps that the issue with flimsy plastic body should be minimized, if not tamed. Steve demoed to me last night how tightly DL-103 snuggles once placed inside the cap, so I can imagine that such solution must result in improved tracking.

As for re-tipping the stylus, I hear what Marco is saying, there is a chance that messing with the manufacturer's model may alter the very character of the cartridge. Obviously, the only way for Denon to keep such fabulous product at such insanely low price point was to cut corners on the body and on the stylus. Everything else about that cartridge appears first class.

[montesquieu]

To my knowledge, the only two serious complaints about DL-103 are spherical stylus and plastic body. Otherwise, where else can you buy LOMC that goes up to 45 kHz for $250.00?

I'm expecting with Steve's caps that the issue with flimsy plastic body should be minimized, if not tamed. Steve demoed to me last night how tightly DL-103 snuggles once placed inside the cap, so I can imagine that such solution must result in improved tracking.

As for re-tipping the stylus, I hear what Marco is saying, there is a chance that messing with the manufacturer's model may alter the very character of the cartridge. Obviously, the only way for Denon to keep such fabulous product at such insanely low price point was to cut corners on the body and on the stylus. Everything else about that cartridge appears first class.

I'm with Marco on this one. The spherical is part of the cartridge's character. Bugger around with it and in my opinion you stand a far higher chance of ruining it than improving it. I don't see the spherical stylus on the 103 as 'corner' cutting. Rather, it is what it is. Denon themselves have issued versions with improved bodies, there I do think there's a possible improvement. I had a 103 retipped with a paratrace once. Right away on hearing it, I knew it was a mistake.

I had a wood body - a big round thing - that a 103 slipped into, must be a decade ago, that did the same thing as this 'cap' while avoiding the nude option (which I never warmed to). Worked very well indeed wood would be my preference over aluminium (and I'd add more than 3.5g too).

[Boyse6748]

I'm with Marco on this one. The spherical is part of the cartridge's character. Bugger around with it and in my opinion you stand a far higher chance of ruining it than improving it. I don't see the spherical stylus on the 103 as 'corner' cutting. Rather, it is what it is. Denon themselves have issued versions with improved bodies, there I do think there's a possible improvement. I had a 103 retipped with a paratrace once. Right away on hearing it, I knew it was a mistake.

I had a wood body - a big round thing - that a 103 slipped into, must be a decade ago, that did the same thing as this 'cap' while avoiding the nude option (which I never warmed to). Worked very well indeed wood would be my preference over aluminium (and I'd add more than 3.5g too).

God bless you all....

The Denon Pro is perfectly good as it is .... without any additions. This has been designed by experts . That why it’s called the Highiponic (designed by ex Denon Engineers)

Trust me... this is a stunning cartridge. Don’t be messing with it,!!
Peter


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[magiccarpetride]

God bless you all....

The Denon Pro is perfectly good as it is .... without any additions. This has been designed by experts . That why it’s called the Highiponic (designed by ex Denon Engineers)

Trust me... this is a stunning cartridge. Don’t be messing with it,!!
Peter


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Makes sense. But Steve's cap is quite easy to add/remove, that it warrants at least a peek, no?

[montesquieu]

God bless you all....

The Denon Pro is perfectly good as it is .... without any additions. This has been designed by experts . That why it’s called the Highiponic (designed by ex Denon Engineers)

Trust me... this is a stunning cartridge. Don’t be messing with it,!!
Peter


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Up to a point .. most arms need extra mass to get the best out of a 103, that's the era it's from ... and if adding mass, then adding a bit of stiffness is not necessarily a bad idea as that's undoubtedly a flaw. (Putting it inside a housing of some kind is the best way to do this as it's easily reversible).

But totally agree don't mess with the tip!

[karma67]

To my knowledge, the only two serious complaints about DL-103 are spherical stylus and plastic body.
no complaints from me at all,i have used a 2m black, a decca c4e with a extended line contact tip,and lastly before the denon a cadenza black,i dont hand on heart miss any off them compared to the 103sa.and the beautiful thing is because of the spherical tip you dont have to sod about for hrs messing with the SRA angle!

the trick is listening to people who know what they are talking about regarding the 103 and following there recommendations :) if i was in your shoes id be concentrating on getting a better matched arm rather than fancy bodies.

[montesquieu]

no complaints from me at all,i have used a 2m black, a decca c4e with a extended line contact tip,and lastly before the denon a cadenza black,i dont hand on heart miss any off them compared to the 103sa.and the beautiful thing is because of the spherical tip you dont have to sod about for hrs messing with the SRA angle!

the trick is listening to people who know what they are talking about regarding the 103 and following there recommendations :) if i was in your shoes id be concentrating on getting a better matched arm rather than fancy bodies.

The 103sa has an improved body already.

[karma67]

yes i know lucky me :ner:

[Boyse6748]

yes i know lucky me :ner:

I’m not too sure if you guys think your better than the original designers?

Why change something that works?

If the Highphonic guys thought an aluminium body would be the bees knees.... why didn’t they supply the said item?

Confused!!! Or perhaps is something to do with an end price point.?


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[karma67]

I’m not too sure if you guys think your better than the original designers?

Why change something that works?

If the Highphonic guys thought an aluminium body would be the bees knees.... why didn’t they supply the said item?

Confused!!! Or perhaps is something to do with an end price point.?


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i dont,mine is totally bog standard,denon themselves put it in a different body lol

[magiccarpetride]

I’m not too sure if you guys think your better than the original designers?

Why change something that works?

If the Highphonic guys thought an aluminium body would be the bees knees.... why didn’t they supply the said item?

Confused!!! Or perhaps is something to do with an end price point.?


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Could be the end price point. Manufacturers face stiff competition, and as much as they'd love to offer highest possible quality, they gotta stop at a certain point. Else they'd price themselves out of the market.

That's why we're seeing a lot of aftermarket activities. It stands to reason that DL-103 engineers didn't really come to the conclusion: "Yep, plastic body is definitely the best possible body for this type of cartridge." No, they probably thought "if we now add high quality body, we'd have to jack up the price and would therefore lose significant portion of the market."

But people in the know tried to improve and have managed to get to the point where the cartridge does sound even better than the vanilla one does.

Another similar 'half baked' product are the Magnepan speakers (Maggies). They are fantastic speakers that ship out of the factory in a sub-standard body (MDF). Magnepan realized that if they went all the way and incorporated high quality hardwood body, they'd have to charge much more and would therefore lose portion of their potential market. So the aftermarket kicked in and many people replaced MDF with hardwood body, thus lifting this already magnificent speaker to even higher levels of performance.

[montesquieu]

I’m not too sure if you guys think your better than the original designers?

Why change something that works?

If the Highphonic guys thought an aluminium body would be the bees knees.... why didn’t they supply the said item?

Confused!!! Or perhaps is something to do with an end price point.?



I wouldn't call Highphonic 'designers' they are modding someone else's product - to good effect I'm sure but if their expertise is in modifying the coils, they wouldn't necessarily change the body as well.

I had one of their SUT's once it was quite good.

[Boyse6748]

Thanks guys, an interesting concept. As I’m using the Denon Pro on a daily basis,,, I’m very happy with the sound output and modification is not necessary. (Or it would be a different experience)

However, we all have our own concept on what we like.... I guess that’s what it’s all about!!!


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[steveharman]

The musicality of the DL103-R is why I snapped up a used Zu Audio DL103-R a couple of years back https://www.zuaudio.com/turntable/zudl-103.

+1 for the DL103 in all its forms.

Steve

[chris@panteg]

I've just received a DL103R, rebuilt into a rosewood body and a new sapphire cantilever with a fine line tip on loan to try out.

Was just wondering if anyone on here has had something similar?
Looking forward to listening to it, not sure if it will be a happy match but hopefully it will.

[CageyH]

I have a brass bodied 103 with a boron cantilever and a shibata tip.
I quite enjoy it, so it will be interested to see what you think of the wooden one you have on loan.

[chris@panteg]

I have a brass bodied 103 with a boron cantilever and a shibata tip.
I quite enjoy it, so it will be interested to see what you think of the wooden one you have on loan.

Yes, I will report back, the wooden body is going to add something I'm sure.

[chris@panteg]

Well that didn't happen , to big for my 309 headshell, oh well scrap that idea, disappointed.

[Paulie72]

Sorry to use an old post :)

I have an Holistic Audio 103 CL which is based on an DL 103 Pro. I use it together with an Yamaha GT-2000 turntable and Rothwell Headspace to my Devialet Expert 140 pro. My question is is an SUT like an Rothwell MCL/Denon AU-S1 or A23 an upgrade in this set up?

[Paulie72]

Yesterday i sold my Devialet Expert 140 Pro and bought an Expert 220 Pro. Yesterday evening and today i did some listening and i am very happy. Charly Antolini - Knock Out 2k is an demanding record and it sounds so good. Dynamically, nice soundstage and good separation of instruments.

Very happy with my purchases and the cartridge is now even more better sounding due to the better phono pre amp of the Devialet.

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