What did you make of the recent Dac Test from Hi Fi Choice?

[daveyboy]

Contained some dac's I hadn't heard of before
Discuss

[StanleyB]

1. What recent DAC test? Which issue of the magazine and when did it come out?
2. What did you make of the test?

[jandl100]

I tend not to take any notice of the mags these days ...

What DACs were they and what were the opinions?

.... there are just so many previously unheard of DACs flooding the market these days, each of which seems to have there own fanboyz ....

[Spectral Morn]

Hi-Fi Choice April 2010.

Dacs on test were. Beresford Caiman, Cambridge Dac Magic, Firestone Audio Spitfire, Jolida Glass FX mini Dac, Musical Fidelity V Dac, Project Dac Box FL.

Top 2, are (according to Choice ;)) the Musical Fidelity V Dac and the Cambridge Audio Dac Magic, runners up Beresford Caiman and Project Dac Box FL.

Having not heard any of these, I can't comment further.

Hi Stan surprised you didn't know about the review.


Regards D S D L

[Haselsh1]

I can't help but think that the Musical Fidelity V-DAC made it into the top two on price more than anything. The numerous reviews on the net make constant reference to it's overly warm sound. My choice was between the Spitfire dac and the Caiman. I eventually chose the Caiman.

[Stratmangler]

Top 2, are (according to Choice ;)) the Musical Fidelity V Dac and the Cambridge Audio Dac Magic, runners up Beresford Caiman and Project Dac Box FL.

Seems funny that, seeing as how the supplier of one of the DAC's tested spends no money on magazine advertising. Or am I casting too cynical an eye on the outcome of the tests ?
Does the shoot out give any details of run in times etc ? Probably not.
My Caiman took a couple of weeks to initially settle in, and a further couple of months to fully settle down.

Chris;)

[StanleyB]

Hi Stan surprised you didn't know about the review.
I heard about the test. But other AoS visitors need a bit more info than just 'recent DAC test' in case they have not read the article, but wish to do so.


I can't help but think that the Musical Fidelity V-DAC made it into the top two on price more than anything. The numerous reviews on the net make constant reference to it's overly warm sound.
The opposite to warm is clinical and dry, which one expensive DAC is frequently referred as. I like to be neutral so that mine doesn't make a valve setup overly warm, or am aggressive transistor setup overly bright.

[Spectral Morn]

I heard about the test. But other AoS visitors need a bit more info than just 'recent DAC test' in case they have not read the article, but wish to do so.

Hi Stan

Just the way your post above read gave me the impression you didn't know about a due/upcoming review.

I agree the opening post was to vague.

Regards D S D L

[Spectral Morn]

Seems funny that, seeing as how the supplier of one of the DAC's tested spends no money on magazine advertising. Or am I casting too cynical an eye on the outcome of the tests ?
Does the shoot out give any details of run in times etc ? Probably not.
My Caiman took a couple of weeks to initially settle in, and a further couple of months to fully settle down.

Chris;)

Of course not...its a Choice shoot out. One system used, no apparent, or mentioned attempt to component to system match (we all know that's vital). I suspect that all the Dacs were not run in fully (though they may have been ?). I suppose Choice might and could argue that this gives no one item an advantage, but again we all know that some items sound better sooner than others. Imho these sorts of shoot outs are a flawed tool, and give flawed results, usually imho.

One of the points levelled as a weakness in the Caiman, was that it can't do Classical music (large scale Rachmaninov, being the worst offender during the test) .....:scratch:, but is great on Pop and Rock. Detail over musical energy is the suggestion. I suspect it just has not been fully run in, and my own findings when testing a 7510 a year ago, is that it was picky about the transports I used...the Caiman might be as well ?...though I have not heard or tried one, so don't know if that's the case or not. The 7510 required a lot of running in, as well. It lacked weight and scale, but was open and detailed early on during my listening. As it ran in weight and scale came on board and a fully coherent sound resulted. Run in is vital...don't ever assume its done fully until you have gone with the common vibe on an item. If folks who use it all say it takes 100 or 200 hours then only when you pass that point can you know if its right for you and your system or not. If you don't you are short changing yourself big time imho. This goes for ever item that makes up a system...everything has a run in/warm up time imho/e.


Bottom line with all things you have to try it in your system, and make sure every item you try is fully run in, and as much as possible allowed the best set of circumstances to give 100 % of what it can do...to do anything less will give you too a flawed result.


Regards D S D L

[Stratmangler]

One of the points levelled as a weakness in the Caiman, was that it can't do Classical music (large scale Rachmaninov, being the worst offender during the test) .....:scratch:,

Seems an odd comment to me too....

Chris:)

[Dave Cawley]

Do any do 24/192 ?

Dave

[Spectral Morn]

Do any do 24/192 ?

Dave

Only the MF V Dac, the rest are 96 with the Jolida being 48.


Regards D S D L

[Stratmangler]

There's no mention of the V-Dac playing 24/192 files in the manual http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/V-Series/V-DAC/V-DAC-manual.pdf
There is some mention of 24/192 upsampling though;)

Chris:)

PS - I've done a little bit of 'net trawling and can't find anything more on the V-Dac specification. For all I know it might only handle 24/48 data maximum, and then upsample the lot to 24/192. Musical Fidelity do not post full specifications on their website.

[Spectral Morn]

There's no mention of the V-Dac playing 24/192 files in the manual http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/V-Series/V-DAC/V-DAC-manual.pdf
There is some mention of 24/192 upsampling though;)

Chris:)

I thought that was what Dave was asking, but on reflection probably not. MF have been doing 24/192 or 24/96 switchable to 192 upsampling for awhile such as the Tri-Vista Dac.

My MSB link Dac does 24/192 in the sense Dave meant. It will decode DVDA when feed via a digital link from my Toshiba SD900 DVD player, and playing a DVD A disc.

Regards D S D L

[Stratmangler]

Does the Tosh actually output 24/192 via its' S/PDIF (I'm assuming that that's the connection you're using) ? I've had a look at the manual, and it's not mentioned.
I only ask, as my Pioneer player (DV656) downsamples the 24/192 stuff to 24/96.
Consequently my DAC has a 24/96 signal to process. It still sounds rather better than plain old vanilla CD.

Chris:)

[Haselsh1]

My Original CD player is 24/192 but must output at less than that as it works fine with the Caiman.

Regarding the Caiman being crap with classical music; I'm actually quite pleased...! The thought of the Caiman being first class at some fat bloke thrashing around on a piano making a Godawful noise would certainly be enough to put me off it. On the other hand, the Caiman does an astonishing job at reproducing my Ancient Academy of Music copy of Vivaldi's Four Seasons Suite. Long live classical music through the Caiman.

[Spectral Morn]

Does the Tosh actually output 24/192 via its' S/PDIF (I'm assuming that that's the connection you're using) ? I've had a look at the manual, and it's not mentioned.
I only ask, as my Pioneer player (DV656) downsamples the 24/192 stuff to 24/96.
Consequently my DAC has a 24/96 signal to process. It still sounds rather better than plain old vanilla CD.

Chris:)

Good question :scratch: I had assumed that when I selected 192 on the DVDA disc (when they have it) then that is what I would hear. The MSB Link DAC is fitted with that decoding module (as well as the HDCD one). The 192 light lights up, if I remember right. I will have to check it out. My Toshiba is not hooked up at the moment, but my Pioneer 868avi is. I could try it I guess.

Yes its a Co-Ax connection.

Regards D S D L

[Stratmangler]

My Original CD player is 24/192 but must output at less than that as it works fine with the Caiman.

Regarding the Caiman being crap with classical music; I'm actually quite pleased...! The thought of the Caiman being first class at some fat bloke thrashing around on a piano making a Godawful noise would certainly be enough to put me off it. On the other hand, the Caiman does an astonishing job at reproducing my Ancient Academy of Music copy of Vivaldi's Four Seasons Suite. Long live classical music through the Caiman.

C'mon Shaun, it's hardly fair describing Rachmaninov's work as "some fat bloke thrashing around on a piano making a Godawful noise", is it. :D

Your CDP does not output 24/192 - internally the machine upsamples 16/44.1 to 24/192, and the internal DAC translates this into something rough sounding, so you bought a Caiman.
The outputs to an offboard DAC will be plain vanilla 16/44.1

Chris;)

[Stratmangler]

Good question :scratch: I had assumed that when I selected 192 on the DVDA disc (when they have it) then that is what I would hear. The MSB Link DAC is fitted with that decoding module (as well as the HDCD one). The 192 light lights up, if I remember right. I will have to check it out. My Toshiba is not hooked up at the moment, but my Pioneer 868avi is. I could try it I guess.

Yes its a Co-Ax connection.

Regards D S D L

I remember there was a right hoohah about Pioneer outputting 24/96 via the S/PDIF - something about protecting copyrighted material.:eek:

The 24/192 files are stored on the disc as MLP files (Meridian Lossless Packaging), and the transport decodes these to PCM stream. This PCM stream can then be sent to the internal DAC as 24/192, or sent to the S/PDIF for offboard processing.
If your DAC's 192 light illuminates then obviously they've upped the spec on the S/PDIF and kept quiet about it.

Chris:)

[Haselsh1]

Your CDP does not output 24/192 - internally the machine upsamples 16/44.1 to 24/192, and the internal DAC translates this into something rough sounding, so you bought a Caiman.
The outputs to an offboard DAC will be plain vanilla 16/44.1

Chris;)

Ya know, I know so little about digital music that I was really hoping that was the case when I ordered the Caiman. I just hoped for the best.

[Spectral Morn]

I remember there was a right hoohah about Pioneer outputting 24/96 via the S/PDIF - something about protecting copyrighted material.:eek:

The 24/192 files are stored on the disc as MLP files (Meridian Lossless Packaging), and the transport decodes these to PCM stream. This PCM stream can then be sent to the internal DAC as 24/192, or sent to the S/PDIF for offboard processing.
If your DAC's 192 light illuminates then obviously they've upped the spec on the S/PDIF and kept quiet about it.

Chris:)

Indeed I remember that at the time.

I will check it out in the future and see what's what...my memory is not perfect...in regard to the 192 light, lighting up.....I am doubting myself.

The Toshiba 900 was from the end of the production run. I bought mine from the last few that were left, from Toshiba UK direct. I worked for a brown goods retailer at the time, and we were one of the UK's top Toshiba dealers. I got a very, very good deal on it.


Regards D S D L

[dave2010]

I've only had my Caiman a bit more than a week, so nowhere near run in yet. I suppose it can be run quicker if I leave it on permanently - it doesn't need a signal does it?

So far I'd say that some classical music sounds excellent and some is really bad. I think it's possible that the Caiman shows up faults in recordings which might otherwise not be noticed. I don't know really - I'm reserving judgement for a while. To do a fair test one has to be pretty confident in the source material. Just picking a CD at random may expose some pretty awful recordings, where the faults might not be noticed on less demanding equipment.

Do we have details of where the DAC review is yet?

[Ali Tait]

I'd leave a cd on repeat feeding the dac.Just switch the amp off.Leave it like that when you're at work and at night.That'll run it in quicker.

[Themis]

Now, as I've listened to 4 out of the 6 dacs reviewed, here's my opinion:

-The Firestone is a dac of about the quality of the stock 7520. So, a bit too far from the Caiman. With it's upgraded PSU it comes closer to the Caiman/initial PSU but... it's still behind the actual Caiman. Let alone it has no headphone nor variable out. Verdict: too expensive for what it is.

-The DacMagic is a serious competitor, lacks headphone and variable output but includes balanced outs and several filters. Nice bit of kit with efficient upsampling. Clearly a matter of taste/needs do choose between the CA and the Caiman.

- The V-Dac is ok, a sweet dac A bit too sweet, even, it lacks the punch of the Caiman (and its variable out). As a whole it's behind the DacMagic and Caiman, but could fit nicely in certain over-bright setups.

- I have never listened to the Pro-ject, but I know no dac-maniac who ever said this dac was much different of the tens of £100 dacs taht can be found everywhere on the web.

- The Jolida Glass FX is not a dac, traditionally speaking : it is a USB bundle. Never listened to it, but, however it may sound, it's not versatile enough to be seriously considered. What is it doing in this test ? :scratch:

- My opinions about the Caiman are known.


In any case, once more, I disagree with a British reviewer. It's becoming a habit, if it continues it will soon become a rule... :lolsign:

[daveyboy]

Yep I should have said the month but it was late and i wasn't thinking that clearly lol. Now regarding the Beresford Caiman, they said it wasn't as rhythmically involving as they would have liked. I have no opinion about that, I just know I like what my modded 7510 does very much :). Then again I haven't heard the dac magic, or the fubar so who knows, there might very well be better out there. It was food for thought anyway

[Stratmangler]

Now regarding the Beresford Caiman, they said it wasn't as rhythmically involving as they would have liked.

Not rhythmically involving ?:scratch:
Bull Sh 1t
It makes me glad that I stopped reading the audio press quite a while ago.

Chris:)

[daveyboy]

This is the point about sound Chris, surely it's subjective? they weren't saying it was poor, it's just they preferred others.

[Themis]

I never understood definitions such as "rhythmical" and "musical energy" about dacs. I guess is must speak to audience who understands what PRaT is...
I prefer more down-to-earth, simple "focus" and "details" vocabulary.

[StanleyB]

Considering that the Caiman was only supposed to be a limited production of a modified TC-7520 it seems to have made quite a splash:). But all those magazine comments are quite useful. Together they add up to enough data that could lay the foundation of an even better sounding DAC. Food for thought.

[Stratmangler]

Together they add up to enough data that could lay the foundation of an even better sounding DAC. Food for thought.

With a couple of line inputs and remote control volume as well as the 4 digital inputs ?
Yes please !!!!!

Chris:)

[daveyboy]

Considering that the Caiman was only supposed to be a limited production of a modified TC-7520 it seems to have made quite a splash:). But all those magazine comments are quite useful. Together they add up to enough data that could lay the foundation of an even better sounding DAC. Food for thought.

Oh it's definitely made a big splash and you are right, they are definitely useful, you can't please everyone all of the time but it's good that you are looking on it as a challenge :).

Incidentally what dac's do you rate stan? outside of your range of course

[Ali Tait]

+1.I'd buy one!

[Stratmangler]

This is the point about sound Chris, surely it's subjective? they weren't saying it was poor, it's just they preferred others.

It's not for the DAC to be rhythmically anything.
It's for the DAC to accurately decode the bits.
It's for the recording to have pace, rhythm and timing.
If you shape the tonal characteristics of the output stage of the DAC it is possible to accentuate rhythmical qualities within the recording.

Now do you see where I'm coming from ?

Chris:)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Yeah, there has to be a market for such a product stan, there has been enough requests on here for one!

[daveyboy]

Sure and perhaps some of those dac's do add colour to the recordings, which is not necessarily a bad thing and does come down to tastes, subjectively it's a good or bad thing.

[StanleyB]

With a couple of line inputs and remote control volume as well as the 4 digital inputs ?
To do some of that stuff I would have to look at software control. You are talking microcontrollers, but programming them is not an art I master. Maybe put in a socket for a microcontroller later on? Might be a good project for modders who want to try out their firmware writing skills for the microcontrollers:scratch:. That would make it possible to even write an LCD display routine. Anyone with TUSB3200B programming skills?

[Stratmangler]

I was thinking along the lines of a good old fashioned motorised Alps blue - keep the attenuation analogue.
I'm not a fan of digital volume control - I set my Squeezebox volume to fixed (maximum volume) because I don't like the way it sounds when I use the volume control.

Chris:)

[aBe]

Considering that the Caiman was only supposed to be a limited production of a modified TC-7520 it seems to have made quite a splash:). But all those magazine comments are quite useful. Together they add up to enough data that could lay the foundation of an even better sounding DAC. Food for thought.

Noooo...not again Stan. :doh:

I bought the Caiman while I'm still adjusting to the newfound sonic prowess of the 7510.

The Caiman simply improves on what was already outstanding in the 7510, and in turn I had to shelve the 7510 prematurely.

History might repeat itself again...and again...

[Shanedudddy2]

Only up to a point, I`m sure the differences amongst the best of the best dacs are pretty negligable/none.
Money is also a bad indicator of quality as well.
I heard a guys like $50,000 audio setup with ADAM Alpha's ,all crazy cables, power filters and super high level DAC and I honestly thought my system sounded a lot better, just sounded harsh and dull.

[StanleyB]

Noooo...not again Stan. :doh:
I bought the Caiman while I'm still adjusting to the newfound sonic prowess of the 7510.
The Caiman simply improves on what was already outstanding in the 7510, and in turn I had to shelve the 7510 prematurely.
History might repeat itself again...and again...
I need to develop at least one new DAC before 2011. The TC-7520 and TC-7520SE use a few parts that won't be available from the component manufacturers after 2010. Some of those parts work off the lower 3.3V instead of 5V, and have a different pin layout.So what do you suggest that I do?

[twelvebears]

Seems funny that, seeing as how the supplier of one of the DAC's tested spends no money on magazine advertising. Or am I casting too cynical an eye on the outcome of the tests ?


Good grief Chris. Erm... let's not open the WTF can of worms again.... :eyebrows:

[StanleyB]

I don't know what they do with samples from the other DAC suppliers, but they are always eager to hang on to mine forever:rolleyes:. Maybe the reviewers listen more to rock and pop at home :lol:.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

i bet david price didnt get to keep hold of this dac (and other bits)
http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/page/assets/HFW%20dCS%20Paganini.pdf
although it sounds like he might have wanted to

[REM]

Yes he certainly did like it, didn't he just, and what does DP think £30k worth of digital whizz kiddery gets you:-

"To wit, classic reggae such as Gregory Isaacs’ ‘Night Nurse’, which is normally dire via digital, came over brilliantly. The dCS, properly warmed through, will push out bass that you’d only get in a nightclub via a Technics SL1200 spinning a late seventies 45RPM twelve inch.";).

[aBe]

I need to develop at least one new DAC before 2011. The TC-7520 and TC-7520SE use a few parts that won't be available from the component manufacturers after 2010. Some of those parts work off the lower 3.3V instead of 5V, and have a different pin layout.So what do you suggest that I do?

I would prefer you to put me on the waiting list for your next DAC (with loads of loyal-fan discounts thrown in) :lol:

[StanleyB]

I would prefer you to put me on the waiting list for your next DAC (with loads of loyal-fan discounts thrown in) :lol:
So that excludes you then:eyebrows:.

[Themis]

:lolsign:

[DSJR]

See if you can better the Caiman for less money?????? - or get the Caiman spec built in the far east for less money and design something really special at £500 with better regulators etc.....

[Labarum]

I need to develop at least one new DAC before 2011. The TC-7520 and TC-7520SE use a few parts that won't be available from the component manufacturers after 2010. Some of those parts work off the lower 3.3V instead of 5V, and have a different pin layout.So what do you suggest that I do?

Exploit the DAC-Pre aspect - no other DAC in the price bracket is as flexible.

Remote volume control (preferably analogue)

Remote source switching.

At least one analogue input.

RJ45 input turning the DAC into a network device.

There are various options for turning the DAC into a streaming device.

Well, you did ask, Stan.

[StanleyB]

Exploit the DAC-Pre aspect - no other DAC in the price bracket is as flexible.

Remote volume control (preferably analogue)

Remote source switching.

At least one analogue input.

RJ45 input turning the DAC into a network device.

There are various options for turning the DAC into a streaming device.

Well, you did ask, Stan.
Not the type of things possible at this price bracket. The cost of adding those kind of features is unlikely to be less than £150 on top of the price of the basic DAC circuit.

[StanleyB]

See if you can better the Caiman for less money? It's a question of offsetting the manual labour cost of building each Caiman, against the cost of more expensive components on an automated production line.

[DSJR]

More expensive components on an automated production line????????

[StanleyB]

More expensive components on an automated production line????????
Any reason why that is not a good idea or impossible?

[Stratmangler]

More expensive components on an automated production line????????

Automated runs = big volumes.

[StanleyB]

1000 pieces minimum. But there won't be any progress in life if we spend more time worrying about the difficulties, instead of looking positively forward to a successful outcome:).

[Themis]

You mean you can build a remote analog volume control for around £100 ? :scratch:

[StanleyB]

You mean you can build a remote analog volume control for around £100 ? :scratch:
You can buy such a kit on eBay for half that price. You just need to add a case and a power supply.

[steveinspain]

So, what would anyone here clever enough to do the job charge me for building a remote control for my Caiman ?
It is the one feature I would really like to have that is missing..

[break-3]

Seems funny that, seeing as how the supplier of one of the DAC's tested spends no money on magazine advertising. Or am I casting too cynical an eye on the outcome of the tests ?


Yes, you are.

[Stratmangler]

Yes, you are.

Ah well, that's me told then !

[StanleyB]

Whatever it was in the What HIFI Choice review of the Caiman, it did result in extra sales of the Caiman :eyebrows:. I have had to put a 'low stock' notice on my site since I am down to my last few Caimans for this month :).

[Themis]

Cheers, Stan. :)

In any case, every time I demo the Caiman, the listener is positively impressed. Every time. ;)

[Steve Toy]

It's for the recording to have pace, rhythm and timing.

...and for the DAC not to screw it up, not that I think the Caiman does that. The afterthought DAC included inside my Bel Canto transport does a sterling job of screwing up the pace rhythmn and timing though. That's why I use an off-board DAC.