View Full Version : Expert stylus - any good?
farflungstar
22-02-2018, 13:24
I'm looking at a stone bodied koetsu which has been retipped by Expert Stylus - are they a decent outfit?
yes, they are very well known. However, there is a very high likelihood that they have fitted their own 'Paratrace' stylus profile and that is different to the one the Koetsu originally came with. I do know that ESCo re-tip a lot of Koetsu's.
They're very good though their 'traditional' communication methods can be frustrating! One step above carrier pigeon!
Audio Al
22-02-2018, 16:17
Yes a decent company ,
Mike Reed
22-02-2018, 17:28
There have been many threads on this subject and this company on forums over the years. Lots of Koetsus (but mainly lower echelon ones) have had the Paratrace stylus treatment. Despite many happy owners and a few unhappy ones, one aspect seems constant. The Paratrace is not a long-lasting tip. Original Ks are quite the opposite; probably the longest lasting.
ESCo have a good rep. (and a long wait) but there are others; Goldring, N.W.A.and (I think) a Dutch one; plus others, I'm sure. VdH murdered a Urushi I was acquainted with years ago, but they stopped doing O.E.M. repairs, I believe.
Sugano San's cart's are not the same as his son's, (from about '04). Each to his own, but the earlier ones tended to be more lush, whereas the more recent cart's, more dynamic. I have/have had two of Sugano Son's but no personal experience on my deck of the earlier ones.
Of course, it depends if it's had a complete refurb. or just the stylus and/or cantilever replaced. Can't say I'd send my Vermillion to ESCo, but that's just cautious me. Trouble is, the genuine alternative is horrendously expensive.
paulf-2007
22-02-2018, 17:57
I would like a £1 for every retipped koetsu I've seen for sale after recently having the retip. They obviously don't sound the same afterwards.
Not a comment on expert stylus btw
I would like a £1 for every retipped koetsu I've seen for sale after recently having the retip. They obviously don't sound the same afterwards.
Not a comment on expert stylus btwNah they're just old Ks kept going because no one can afford new ones. Some will have had multiple re-tips and other work.
No one is going to bin a K if they can avoid it.
I had my Transfiguration Orpheus re-tipped by ESCo (I trashed it when it was still very "young") and it came back OK.
dwhistance
22-02-2018, 19:46
In response to Paulf's comment above and as a person who put a Sugano San Koetsu up for sale after having it retipped by Expert Stylus I would like to say that in my case the decision to sell came before the retip and was absolutely nothing to do with the sound afterwards. I was just of the opinion, perhaps incorrect, that the cartridge was essentially unsaleable at a reasonable price without the retip, so it was just a question of where to get it done. Given the cost of a Koetsu rebuild, which I was unwilling to pay on the off chance that I might get some of it back on sale, and having had good experiences with them previously I decided to get it done at Expert Stylus.
David Whistance
Mike Reed
22-02-2018, 19:55
I would like a £1 for every retipped koetsu I've seen for sale after recently having the retip. They obviously don't sound the same afterwards.
Well, yes; I'd go along with that, but only by received wisdom in my case. After all, If you've got a £4 to 8K cart., the brand of which has assumed cult status over the decades, are you really going to bring it back to original life with a 3 to 400 pound refurb? There are a number of cheaper and/or older cart's (Troika being one) which do seem to manage to the satisfaction of owners.
The other thing is, that the higher up the cart. ladder you go, generally speaking, the more refined the stylus is going to be. Not easily replicated by a relatively low-cost Paratrace, methinks.
I could well be wrong here, but I feel that Ks of any period will be saleable in any state, more or less, simply because it's a K (esp. stone bodied). Whether it's beneficial to sell in repaired but useable condition, ostensibly losing the 'pure collector', is a moot point. Far eastern K fans have much cheaper access to genuine refurbishment (where they only use the body).
To Mike - I think my ESCo re-tip was fractionally worse than the Immutable original so yes you have a point but for the money I was happy.
I'd bought the cartridge when it was 4 months old with receipt to prove it for £1250 so it was a massive bargain in the first place. Retail at the time was £3K and an Immutable re-tip was more than I had paid for it
I see no reason why a Paratrace stylus would last any less time than an original. They are made out of diamond and are obviously very proficient.
When I say my ESCo rebuild was fractionally worse I mean it was barely detectable and right at the limits of audio memory. I just had a hunch it wasn't quite what it was but TBH it is hard to be sure.
What was obvious was the Paratrace was physically bigger than the original diamond. More diamond for your money LOL.
paulf-2007
22-02-2018, 20:50
Nah they're just old Ks kept going because no one can afford new ones. Some will have had multiple re-tips and other work.
No one is going to bin a K if they can avoid it.
I had my Transfiguration Orpheus re-tipped by ESCo (I trashed it when it was still very "young") and it came back OK.
Not when they are well regarded and as said a £400 retip will see it sold on in working order. I have actually heard people say that they never sounded the same as before and yes would get more money for a working cart. Maybe someone including the op will get a nice cart for the money, but not as good as a rebuild by koetsu. Personally they do nothing for me.
montesquieu
22-02-2018, 21:06
From what I've heard ESCO's reputation is a wee bit out of date ... not least that some (no idea what proportion) of their work is now outsourced to China.
Not necessarily a bad thing if the work is done well, but people may not exactly be getting what they used to be getting.
I've had a few bits and pieces done at ESCO and my experience has been variable, from excellent to so-so. I'm not a fan of the paratrace (the 103 I had paratrace tipped, I got rid of fairly quickly, as I took an instant dislike to it). These days I use other providers.
Happy to recognise that others' experience may be different but I'd be keen to hear from people with experience of re-tips who have used them recently, and not from people simply nodding that so and so company has a solid reputation based on ancient hearsay.
I would like a £1 for every retipped koetsu I've seen for sale after recently having the retip. They obviously don't sound the same afterwards.
Not a comment on expert stylus btw
Astute observation in my view. A good retip can equal or even improve on the original, but not all retips are good (patently) or this phenomenon would not be so widespread.
Mike Reed
22-02-2018, 22:32
[QUOTE=User211;950]
I'd bought the cartridge when it was 4 months old with receipt to prove it for £1250 so it was a massive bargain in the first place. Retail at the time was £3K .../QUOTE]
No idea when this was, but guess it might be (or have been) a Red K Sig, or possibly a Urushi. If quite a few years ago, then the latter, and if so, which one?
Apropos your post above, there be diamonds and diamonds. After that comes the cutting, then the polishing, not to mention the positioning on the cantilever, which usually is boron in the upper echelons (Miyajima excepted).
When my Red needed a retip,I was told the cost of sending it back to Koetsu was going to cost me £200 more than I paid for it when new.I tried to contact ESCO but had no reply,Goldring said they couldn't do the job so sent it to Dom at NWA.
Whilst being the wrong side of 60,my aural memory isn't what it was and obviously the cartridge must have declined somewhat before I realized the fact it was worn.Turnaround was 3-4 weeks.
Whilst any change in SQ would be subjective,I can console myself with the fact that I would have maybe had to pay quite a bit more than the cost of a retip for a new comparable cartridge.
[QUOTE=User211;950]
I'd bought the cartridge when it was 4 months old with receipt to prove it for £1250 so it was a massive bargain in the first place. Retail at the time was £3K .../QUOTE]
No idea when this was, but guess it might be (or have been) a Red K Sig, or possibly a Urushi. If quite a few years ago, then the latter, and if so, which one?
Apropos your post above, there be diamonds and diamonds. After that comes the cutting, then the polishing, not to mention the positioning on the cantilever, which usually is boron in the upper echelons (Miyajima excepted).See post #7. Check all my posts again for coherence!
It was quite a few years ago now. Considerably more than 5 but less than 10.
I have been regularly able to compare the expert stylus para trace urushi vermilion with a koetsu jade with a diamond cantilever (the latter is from koetsu and over 10k). Both the owner and I prefer the expert stylus urushi. I also prefer his to his Decca London reference and various SPUs.
All compares are done on FR 66s with Arche headshell on a brinkmann balance, Allnic H3000 phono, Allnic power amp and Avalon compass diamond in a fantastic 30x14 room using quality classical recordings.
The jade is a typical koetsu that's coloured. With the diamond cantilever it is more dynamic and detailed but makes all LPs sound the same. The urushi I have heard without ESCO retip in other systems and not liked at all.
FRs are the only arms I have liked koetsus on, and normally I don't prefer koetsu. But I love this urushi para trace from ESCO
Now here's the thing... It started sounding extremely good, and better than others in his system, after he replaced his Allnic L5000 preamp with a Soulution 710. The resolution in his system went up bonkers and with the other valves, it is amazingly musical and balanced
sq225917
24-11-2018, 08:57
That doesn't surprise me, I've never heard an alnic amp I liked.
Who mentioned that esco outsource to China. I'd love to track that rumour down, probably to absolute sounds front door.
That doesn't surprise me, I've never heard an alnic amp I liked.
Who mentioned that esco outsource to China. I'd love to track that rumour down, probably to absolute sounds front door.
The Allnic phono is fantastic, but you need to roll the recti. The amp A5000 is good but depends on the speakers. It does have a color. We compared it to Vitus, edge, and a 200w KR. The KR was the best but too expensive. Once the Soulution pre was put in, it gave the downstream amp more drive, separation, clarity, space. Now the system sounds excellent.
And yes, the ESCO urushi does not sound like a koetsu which is why I prefer it
ovlov854
24-11-2018, 11:07
ESCO did a Troika I bought from new for me sometime ago and I remember it sounding pretty damn good when it came back.
If you are still thinking about the Koetsu???.....if the price is right..................
Personally I would go for a wood bodied one.
Dom at NWA is highly spoken about
I have had a couple of Paratrace tips fitted and my experience, supported by that of friends who have also had Paratraace tips fitted, is they are not as long lived as some alternatives. I also feel they somewhat exaggerate record imperfections and tracking noise.
Ammonite Audio
24-11-2018, 14:27
If I recall correctly, when my ESCo re-tipped KontrapunktB had a badly worn tip after what I considered to be a relatively short period of use, Mr Hodgson of ESCo told me that a life of 600 hours was normal for the Paratrace. So, I believe what Mark wrote above is correct.
ESCo used to do different diamond tips I think and their setting up was to get the best performance rather than maybe the nicest sound. Re-tipped Troika's sounded far better than original slightly 'foggy' examples once run in, although we knew little else in those days and somewhere, I think I have a 'sound-bite' that YNWOAN sent me years ago of his rebuilt Troika in ARO. Come to think of it, maybe Goldring did the rebuild - and this is another good re-tipper with years of experience.
Apologies for memory failure above. If YNWOAN sees this, maybe he can jog my memory here.
As for old Koetsu's, even Koetsu got it wrong back in the day! Jimmy H once had an Onyx which came to him minus the diamond chip I seem to recall (these diamond stylus 'chips' came off all too easily, being butt mounted to the cantilever). I seem to recall VDH did the re-tip and the sound of this thing in his Breuer arm (Roksan deck?) was amazingly good. he used it for a while and then sent it to japan to be turned into a 'Signature' or whatever it was. It came back sounding awful - dull, thick and coloured, perhaps in the over-egged 'analogue' way of top-line Koetsu's back then and loved by haters of all things digital - Jimmy's system at that point was superb on CD and his best sounds from vinyl were firectly comparable - this was before he pointed his speakers away from the listener... Long time ago now...
Goldring did the re-tip of my ‘black’ Troika and I went for quite a radical rebuild that included a solid ruby cantilever and the top of the range Gyger stylus. This moved the Troika even further from the ‘foggy’ sound DSJR describes and makes for a very detailed but powerful sounding cartridge. However, I don’t think I did any needle-drips from it and all the vast majority of recordings I did from my deck, back when pfm allowed them, was with my Paratrace tipped Troika.
———
Harking back to an earlier post, it’s certainly not true that ‘a diamond is a diamond’ and some are definately better than others. It’s posdible that this divergence is down to grain orientation, polish or profile. It is also possible the outright quality of the stock varies too.
Thanks for clarifying. It would have been years ago with the Paratrace tipped Troika - I only got to know of your 'Black' Troika in recent times.
I think, if we are talking years ago (and I think you are right, we probably are, if it was when needle-drops were allowed on pfm) then it will definately be one of my ESCo tipped Troikas. As you say, my Goldring rebuilt black Troika is much more recent (I’ve still never encountered another one like it - quite unique I believe).
Crackles
26-11-2018, 21:55
My Shure V15 is with ESCo at the moment having a paratrace re-tip.
I was also told about 600-700 hours is normal for a these tips.
As for outsourcing to China, I would be very surprised if there was any truth in this. Mr Hodgson is very hands on and still trains his own engineers.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
BendBound
11-06-2019, 01:08
I've just had my Ortofon Cadenza Black MC phonograph cartridge retipped by Expert Stylus. On the original cartridge, I had 800 hours of use, clocked with a hand counter, all played on VPI or ultrasonic cleaned records. At about 700 hours I noticed distortion, sibilance, and others who knew my system did too. Based on a recommendation from James Henriot of Whest Audio, I inquired with Expert Stylus and a few days later I sent my cartridge from the US to them in the UK.
Once they examined my cartridge, they issued a written report, stating that the tip was "badly worn". They recommended a retipping with their Paratrace design, among a few other options. I went with their Paratrace option. This required shortening the cantilever by 0.5mm, which served also to reduce its mass.
Ms. Julia Thompson handled most communication. She was timely, informative, and keep me up to date. It took, in my case, about 8 weeks, more of less to get the cartridge back. And some of that delay was because I asked lots of questions on the front end. Also, Mr. Wyndham Hodgson is a busy man, and I sent my cartridge to him prior to Easter when he had scheduled some leave.
I got the cartridge back a few days ago and played straight away—once I got the alignment dialed in—a few of my favorite records. I was blown away by the sound. Okay, I admit, I don't have great of auditory memory from two months ago. Straight up, I don't. I had installed during the retip, an Ortofon 2M Black, which is honestly quite good. What stood out most to me on the retipped Cadenza Black was the detail as in decay of notes, and in the soundstage as in soundspace of the room. Just wonderful. I am really pleased with every aspect of service from Expert Stylus and I recommend them without reservation.
If my experience is normal, I give Expert Stylus retipping services an A+, a 10 on a 1-10 scale. Ms. Thompson and Mr. Hodgson were polite, accommodating of my questions, and most professional.
A job very well done.
I have a Koetsu Black which I bought a few years ago second hand with an ESCO retip. It was so so and seemed to let in more surface noise than my Benz Micro Wood SL. The latter lost the tip so I bought an Ortofon Jubilee refurb direct from Ortofon which is great.
I am now using an XTC power instead of valves and swapped my Noteworthy step up for a Rothwell that I have also had for a few years but thought so so as well. The Rothwell lacked bass with the valve power.
With the change of amp the Rothwell and Koetsu are now back in the system and sound sublime. Surface noise is none existent and resolution and bass staggering. If you had asked me a year ago I would have said both components are mediocre now it is the opposite. The point is consider the ancillaries before you criticise the cartridge. No complaints about ESCO.
They're very good though their 'traditional' communication methods can be frustrating! One step above carrier pigeon!
Yea they rang me and we chatted for ages about different cartridge/stylus when I sent them a cartridge to be examined for wear etc
Having had various incarnations of the Denon 103 over many years amongst other favoured cartridges I would always eventually move them on as none really cut it in my set up.
Alas, yet again a 103SA came my way and supposedly the best incarnation of the breed, but again it fell short and back in the box until I decided to get the Paratrace treatment as the last stand in owning one as a keeper.
The service was good and I had my cartridge back in approx' one month and upon auditioning I was shocked wondering what Mr Hodgson had done to it.
This was no minor shift in sound or balance but a fantastic leap in clarity and imaging.... No longer is it the bridesmaid against other cartridges in my arsenal but can hold its own in all departments....
Well Mr Hodgson currently has my Ortofon Cadenza Bronze for the Paratrace treatment and I await its return even more so now.... Especially after having a conversation with him informing of BendBound's delight in getting his Black sounding so great.
Actually that's a good point.
You're gonna get a Paratrace so why not send in a cheaper MC cart for a Paratrace. Chances are it'll be a significant upgrade I reckon but whether it is worth the charge rate is the question.
topoxforddoc
21-06-2019, 23:35
ESCo rebuilt two 103s (103C-1 and standard 103) for me earlier this year - both with their sapphire cantilever and ultra low mass paratrace. The 103C-1 is playing in my second system and it is stunning. I chatted to Wyndham for 15 minutes discussing the best options for this cartridges and a vintage Ortofon SL15Ell (I had a paratrace retip for this) - so helpful and brilliant service for very reasonable money.
I *might* be looking into retipping my Ortofon MC10 Supreme ... What is the approximate cost for a sapphire/paratrace retip these days? Do they offer other tip options on sapphire cantilever? I guess I could email them but I'm not really even in the kicking the tires phase yet :)
I've just had my Ortofon Cadenza Black MC phonograph cartridge retipped by Expert Stylus. On the original cartridge, I had 800 hours of use, clocked with a hand counter, all played on VPI or ultrasonic cleaned records. At about 700 hours I noticed distortion, sibilance, and others who knew my system did too. Based on a recommendation from James Henriot of Whest Audio, I inquired with Expert Stylus and a few days later I sent my cartridge from the US to them in the UK.
Once they examined my cartridge, they issued a written report, stating that the tip was "badly worn". They recommended a retipping with their Paratrace design, among a few other options. I went with their Paratrace option. This required shortening the cantilever by 0.5mm, which served also to reduce its mass.
Ms. Julia Thompson handled most communication. She was timely, informative, and keep me up to date. It took, in my case, about 8 weeks, more of less to get the cartridge back. And some of that delay was because I asked lots of questions on the front end. Also, Mr. Wyndham Hodgson is a busy man, and I sent my cartridge to him prior to Easter when he had scheduled some leave.
I got the cartridge back a few days ago and played straight away—once I got the alignment dialed in—a few of my favorite records. I was blown away by the sound. Okay, I admit, I don't have great of auditory memory from two months ago. Straight up, I don't. I had installed during the retip, an Ortofon 2M Black, which is honestly quite good. What stood out most to me on the retipped Cadenza Black was the detail as in decay of notes, and in the soundstage as in soundspace of the room. Just wonderful. I am really pleased with every aspect of service from Expert Stylus and I recommend them without reservation.
If my experience is normal, I give Expert Stylus retipping services an A+, a 10 on a 1-10 scale. Ms. Thompson and Mr. Hodgson were polite, accommodating of my questions, and most professional.
A job very well done.
Just my personal curiosity, but how long did it take to clock up 800 hours of playing time? That is a lot of music!!
Russell
A healthcheck report if you do not go ahead is approx' £45.00 and if you give the go ahead then approx' £320.00 to £360.00 inclusive depending on the configuration with the Paratrace (aluminium/sapphire/boron).
This is all depedent on the healthchech not reporting issues like coil damage etc.
Jah guide
Gramophonic
29-07-2021, 23:10
Newby here, sort of. You guys have much better systems than I do!
I am lucky enough to have 2 NOS shure vn35MR stylie and a couple of normal v15 type 3 stylie. I'm seriously conciddering having one of them paratraced, but I got a paratrace on an m44-7 years ago and thought it was awful! probably the cartridge's fault and I'm not entirely sure what made me do this as I knew going in I didn't like the cartridge!
So I suppose my question is: is it worth getting a paratrace tip as a backup?
I have delt with the slow but lovely folks at ES co as they did a bunch of 78 tips for me and I know their work is of good quality and lasts a while, I'm more concerned about sound quality here.
cookstown
15-02-2022, 19:18
Just got my Akiva back from ESC after 3 weeks. Very happy with the service and price £310. Most importantly I'm very happy with the sound. Obviously I can't really compare with original before rebuild but my feet are tapping & I'm looking forward to playing lots of LPs. The owner seems like a real gent and great to deal with.
Hi all,
I’m coming up by the end of the year I’d guess to needing to replace or re-tip an Ortofon Quintet Black S MC, as it’ll be up to around 1200 hours by then so whats the thoughts about using Expert Stylus to do their thing or use the Henley audio Ortofon trade in where they “give me” a £235 value against a new one at £875 , from what I’ve read the all new option will be getting on for twice as expensive after the trade in compared to the re tip assuming my cart itself is ok.
. so being this the first time I’ve needed to think about getting in a replacement cartridge in over 30 years (I’ve had a few TTs over the years but each time they came along I started with a new cart and I moved on before needing to replace the cart, but now I’ve got my keeper TT) I’d appreciate your thoughts good folks on which way to jump as the difference is a lot of records
Any and all thoughts appreciated
Personally I can only go by my experience of the Paratrace and ESCO's work but for me a no-brainer in sending to them... The nude Shibata stylus is obviously excellent but so is their Paratrace profile and more money for music makes it a win win for me.
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