Headamps - Grass Greener?

[Wakefield Turntables]

I love my little Lentek head amp especially when used with my EAR 834 clone but I'm beginning to wonder if the grass if greener and if I should try something different. A Paul Haynes head amp would be at the top of my list but these are very rare and Paul seems to take months to make anything. So, any suggestions would be welcome.

[Bigman80]

I love my little Lentek head amp especially when used with my EAR 834 clone but I'm beginning to wonder if the grass if greener and if I should try something different. A Paul Haynes head amp would be at the top of my list but these are very rare and Paul seems to take months to make anything. So, any suggestions would be welcome.Is this for use with your EAR?

[Wakefield Turntables]

YEP! The Lentek & EAR clone combo truly is a giant killer. It's rare that I'm impressed nowadays but I'm impressed! :D

[Bigman80]

I have spent the last four weeks or so listening to various headamps and SUTs. I have ended up getting asking Alan to fit his MC JFET input into the Wizard phonostage.

For me, it's the best of both worlds. The fluidity and 3D soundstage of a SUT without the mechanical sound i got from multiple HAs. And it has the loading ability that's usually unavailable with SUT'S. It's ultra clean too.

I know Alan has a switchable version for MM and MC so it doesn't have to be a permanent deal

[Wakefield Turntables]

Thanks for the advice, but, I'd really need something plonking in the EAR to assess the effects and I don't think Alan will be up for that!

[Bigman80]

Thanks for the advice, but, I'd really need something plonking in the EAR to assess the effects and I don't think Alan will be up for that!Fair enough.

[Firebottle]

I do have a re-capped head amp you might like to try, it certainly punches above its (original) weight.

[RothwellAudio]

I make these:
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/headspace_mc_headamp.html

A forum member has kindly written a review here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49545-Rothwell-MC-Headamp&highlight=Headspace

[alphaGT]

I am not seeing the point of having two amps, or an SUT and amp, to do the same job that one amp can do? Perhaps I am not experienced in the benefits of doing it this way? My Phonomena is a battery powered solid state unit, that has a half dozen gain settings and lots of loading options. I used it with a Grado Gold when I first got it, I really didn’t see what was so great about it. Until I got my Sumiko MC cart. and suddenly this preamp was shining! Background is jet black, great extension, without favoring any frequency range. I’ve heard better, usually in more expensive units. But my point is, I don’t see the benefit of using two boxes to accomplish the same thing? Maybe I’m missing out?

Russell

[RothwellAudio]

I am not seeing the point of having two amps, or an SUT and amp, to do the same job that one amp can do?

All electronics hiss - it's a fundamental part of the universe. When LOMCs first appeared it was pretty much impossible to get a good signal-to-noise ratio without using a step-up transformer, so step-up transformers were obligatory. When transistors came along it didn't make much difference - you still needed a step-up transformer unless you were prepared to tolerate a certain amount of audible hiss. With modern solid state electronics it is now possible to get very low levels of hiss, but still not quite as low as you can get with a step-up transformer. The down-side of SUTs is that they're prone to hum pick-up.
Still, noise issues aside, there are plenty of people who believe that the sound quality you get with a SUT cannot be beaten.
As for "extra boxes", audiophiles seem to love using more and more boxes. Phonostage in one box? Why not pay more money and have it two? :lol:

[alphaGT]

All electronics hiss - it's a fundamental part of the universe. When LOMCs first appeared it was pretty much impossible to get a good signal-to-noise ratio without using a step-up transformer, so step-up transformers were obligatory. When transistors came along it didn't make much difference - you still needed a step-up transformer unless you were prepared to tolerate a certain amount of audible hiss. With modern solid state electronics it is now possible to get very low levels of hiss, but still not quite as low as you can get with a step-up transformer. The down-side of SUTs is that they're prone to hum pick-up.
Still, noise issues aside, there are plenty of people who believe that the sound quality you get with a SUT cannot be beaten.
As for "extra boxes", audiophiles seem to love using more and more boxes. Phonostage in one box? Why not pay more money and have it two? :lol:

I’ll buy that. It all sounds logical to me, and I’ve never actually used an SUT, but can see that a transformer could preserve the original waveform better than an amp. My Phonomena is a two box affair, one box has two battery packs. And an ingenious circuit that charges one while it runs off the other, once it gets below a certain level it swaps them, runs off the other while it charges the low one. So, the preamp runs on DC current the whole time. And I promise, the hum is so negligible it is nearly non existent. Many times I go to drop the needle and am shocked at how loud the volume is, it makes no noise at all that I can hear, setting at about 60db of gain. Maybe if I cranked it up to 75db I may hear something? But it is quite remarkable compared to any other phono pre I’ve ever heard in my system, as far as noise is concerned. I know battery power is nothing new, Sutherland makes several rather expensive pre’s that use batteries. Perhaps a stand alone battery power supply like I’ve got would make a great product to sell? To power any brand of pre? Or DAC?
Russell

[montesquieu]

Still, noise issues aside, there are plenty of people who believe that the sound quality you get with a SUT cannot be beaten.


This. I’ve tried some very good head amps (not yet the Paul H one) but I don’t think it’s possible to beat a really top end SUT (can be v expensive though ). A good place for one is inside the phono stage if steps are taken to minimise potential hun.

[Wakefield Turntables]

All sounds good fun! I'm still experimenting with the best setup for my valve setup. Next week or so will involve using my Ortofon SUT with my Silver Meister SPU through the EAR clone. :cool:

[montesquieu]

There are several ways that hum can infest a signal and power supply ripple is only one of them. Actually, op-amps are relatively immune to power supply ripple and ripple isn't that hard to eliminate anyway, so there's no real need for a battery PSU to get low hum. The bigger problem with mains power is the magnetic field from the transformer rather than PSU ripple. Getting the transformer well away from the circuit - maybe in a separate box - is the answer to that.


I make a phonostage with step-up transformers built-in, located only millimeters from the next stage of amplification. A review is due to appear in an up-coming edition of Hi-Fi Critic.
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/signature_one_phonostage.html

That looks very nice. Be interesting to read the review.

[alphaGT]

There are several ways that hum can infest a signal and power supply ripple is only one of them. Actually, op-amps are relatively immune to power supply ripple and ripple isn't that hard to eliminate anyway, so there's no real need for a battery PSU to get low hum. The bigger problem with mains power is the magnetic field from the transformer rather than PSU ripple. Getting the transformer well away from the circuit - maybe in a separate box - is the answer to that.


I make a phonostage with step-up transformers built-in, located only millimeters from the next stage of amplification. A review is due to appear in an up-coming edition of Hi-Fi Critic.
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/signature_one_phonostage.html

Wow that is a nice unit! I would love to have one for US voltages. But it’ll probably be forever before one is found on the used market? Not that it’s too expensive, a competitive price I’m sure.

I think your idea of incorporating the transformer right into the circuit is genius. I can see why transformers offer more accurate reproduction. The input is creating the output as the signal cuts across the secondary windings, so a nearly exact copy. As you were saying, hum has many causes, and a lot of it is not just because of the super small input signal, but that signal has to travel a very long way to be amplified. I’m sure my tuner starts with a super small signal too, but it is located right on the same low voltage circuit board where it gets amplified. While a cartridge output must travel up the tonearm, up the interconnects, into multiple stages of amplification, gives hum so many places to start. Congratulations on producing a top notch product! I hope I get to hear it one day soon!

Russell

[Marco]

This. I’ve tried some very good head amps (not yet the Paul H one) but I don’t think it’s possible to beat a really top end SUT (can be v expensive though ).

It's an interesting one, and always has been for me (and no doubt you) who've experimented at length in this area over many years. There's no doubt in my mind that when *true* synergy (both sonic and electrical) has been achieved between a top-notch SUT and its partnering low-output MC cartridge, it results in a level of sheer musical magic that simply can't be replicated by actively amplifying the signal, via an MC head amp.

However... To do it RIGHT, as you say (and as Andrew has designed in what looks to be a superb unit), the chosen SUTs must be hardwired into the circuit of the partnering phono stage, to avoid the sonically detrimental effect of raised capacitance, when SUTs are employed externally inside a separate box, via the use of interconnecting cables, especially when those cables are any longer than 0.5m - and even at such short lengths, it markedly alters the sound for the worse.

Also, if the SUTs employed are correctly located within the circuit of the partnering phono stage, any hum will be minimal and well below the threshold of audibility, when a music signal is present. Undoubtedly, it's a rather elegant and effective way of amplifying that signal.

Trouble with that is (as we live in an imperfect world), you lose the flexibility of trying different SUTs with your chosen cartridge, as you're stuck with whatever the manufacturer has fitted, and so whether or not those will be an ideal match sonically and/or electrically is largely a matter of luck, especially when it comes to the former. The latter can be achieved by matching them to the spec of the cartridge, but even then there is still an element of trial and error needed if one wishes to get the absolute best results.

One has to consider this lack of flexibility carefully, because I've found that the key to achieving true synergy between an SUT and its partnering cartridge, electrical parameters aside, is to successfully marry their respective sonic signatures, as experience has shown that all SUTs have their own unique 'sound', such is the nature of transformers, as indeed do all MC cartridges. Therefore, for said 'musical magic' to occur, one has to achieve the best balance of traits between both - and the only way to do that is to experiment! Something you can't do if the SUTs are fixed into a circuit... ;)

And that is the conundrum of using SUTs:

Unless you've been able to experiment with different ones, in order to find that 'magical combo', and then hardwire the chosen SUTs into your existing phono stage, which is both difficult and likely impractical to do, you'll never know if there's some other SUTs out there (often rare vintage ones, originally used in microphones), which could add something really special to the reproduction of your favourite music.

With head amps (which fundamentally sound different from SUTs) there exists less variables, and therefore the likelihood of missing out on that 'magical combo' is lessened, although that's not to say that head amps don't sound different, they do, just not to the same degree (IME) as transformers. Therefore, if you like what they do, sonically, in comparison with SUTs and use a really good one, designed to match the electrical parameters of your chosen cartridge, the results can also be sublime.

This is especially true when used in conjunction with a top-notch valve MM phono stage, as to my ears, when the right combinations are achieved, there is a synergy between head amps and valves that is as musically beguiling (although in a different way), as when the same has been achieved with an MC cartridge and SUT - and which cannot be matched when head amps are combined with solid-state MM phono stages.

Furthermore (returning to SUTs), sometimes, depending on what cartridge is used, one can over-egg the pudding, in terms of the 'mellifluous effect' achieved when combining valves and SUTs, with everything sounding a trifle 'too nice'. This is far from automatic, of course, especially if the partnership is right, but I've heard it happen all too often, and I'm not into that sort of 'airy-fairy' sound, which ultimately lacks drive and 'punch', and only suits certain types of music.

If, like me, you have wide and varied tastes in music (and a sizeable collection of such on vinyl), and so one minute can be listening to AC/DC, and the next, some classical Sonatas or solo piano, that simply won't do, as you can start finding that the music you play is being dictated by what sounds best with your SUT...

That is why I use an FET-based head amp (as the sonic characteristics of FETs closely match those of valves, minus their negative aspects) from Paul Hynes (who really knows his stuff in that area) fitted with a massive off-board fully regulated PSU, in conjunction with the valve MM stage in my Croft preamp, which itself has been extensively modified with top-notch components, and fitted with some very nice sounding and rather rare NOS military-spec valves, from the 1940s and 50s, as I find that gives me the best of both worlds.

However, one day I intend to experiment again with SUTs (the best vintage ones) and attempt to find that 'magic combo' between those and my Denon DL-S1 or any of my 103s, and then hardwire them into the circuit of the Croft, as there's plenty of space inside the case to do so. Therefore, as they say, watch this space! :cool:

Marco.

[Jimbo]

Hi Marco, thanks for the well written post on SUTs and head amps. You capture the differences succinctly and also how I hear and perceive the two devices. I have experimented a fair bit myself now and have concluded I prefer a SUT to a headamp and appreciate that they are both viable devices especially when the magic partnership is found with whatever MC you are using. However I fall into the SUT camp. However if funds were sufficient I am sure eventually I could find a good headamp.

They do fundamentally work differently and I feel a SUT is more natural sounding especially when you acieve the perfect partnership.

Interesting you mention vintage SUTs as I have a friend who has a cupboard full collected over the last 35 years. He has evaluated them all and some of the golden oldies are very good indeed. We also evaluated the K&K against these and it came out very high in our preferences.

I feel that it would be ideal to have a selection of SUTs on hand In order to find the best suitable partner with any given MC.

[Yomanze]

I would be very tempted to build a Hiraga 'Prepre':

http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/audio/prepre.htm

[Jimbo]

Headamps may be technically more accurate but often they don't sound as good as an SUT.

[Marco]

Hi Marco, thanks for the well written post on SUTs and head amps. You capture the differences succinctly and also how I hear and perceive the two devices.

Interesting you mention vintage SUTs as I have a friend who has a cupboard full collected over the last 35 years. He has evaluated them all and some of the golden oldies are very good indeed. We also evaluated the K&K against these and it came out very high in our preferences.


No problem, Jim. I just thought I'd throw my thoughts out there, as it were, based on years of experimenting with these things, for anyone interested :)

Using vintage transformers (which suit your cartridge), for me, is where it's at with SUTs, as the best ones truly are something special and can imbue your favourite music with an extremely addictive magic all of their own, and not one which is 'wrongly coloured' either ;)

Glad that the K&Ks (Lundahls) performed well in such exalted company! They are very good, but in my experience there are some vintage transformers out there with a sonic signature, which if they can successfully match your partnering cartridge, electrically, raise the bar further to a notable degree.

Marco.

P.S Good post, Andrew. I'm just popping out for a bit, so will reply to the points you've raised later.

[montesquieu]

However... To do it RIGHT, as you say (and as Andrew has designed in what looks to be a superb unit), the chosen SUTs must be hardwired into the circuit of the partnering phono stage, to avoid the sonically detrimental effect of raised capacitance, when SUTs are employed externally inside a separate box, via the use of interconnecting cables, especially when those cables are any longer than 0.5m - and even at such short lengths, it markedly alters the sound for the worse.

Also, if the SUTs employed are correctly located within the circuit of the partnering phono stage, any hum will be minimal and well below the threshold of audibility, when a music signal is present. Undoubtedly, it's a rather elegant and effective way of amplifying that signal.

Trouble with that is (as we live in an imperfect world), you lose the flexibility of trying different SUTs with your chosen cartridge, as you're stuck with whatever the manufacturer has fitted, and so whether or not those will be an ideal match sonically and/or electrically is largely a matter of luck, especially when it comes to the former. The latter can be achieved by matching them to the spec of the cartridge, but even then there is still an element of trial and error needed if one wishes to get the absolute best results.

One has to consider this lack of flexibility carefully, because I've found that the key to achieving true synergy between an SUT and its partnering cartridge, electrical parameters aside, is to successfully marry their respective sonic signatures, as experience has shown that all SUTs have their own unique 'sound', such is the nature of transformers, as indeed do all MC cartridges. Therefore, for said 'musical magic' to occur, one has to achieve the best balance of traits between both - and the only way to do that is to experiment! Something you can't do if the SUTs are fixed into a circuit... ;)

And that is the conundrum of using SUTs:

Unless you've been able to experiment with different ones, in order to find that 'magical combo', and then hardwire the chosen SUTs into your existing phono stage, which is both difficult and likely impractical to do, you'll never know if there's some other SUTs out there (often rare vintage ones, originally used in microphones), which could add something really special to the reproduction of your favourite music.

With head amps (which fundamentally sound different from SUTs) there exists less variables, and therefore the likelihood of missing out on that 'magical combo' is lessened, although that's not to say that head amps don't sound different, they do, just not to the same degree (IME) as transformers. Therefore, if you like what they do, sonically, in comparison with SUTs and use a really good one, designed to match the electrical parameters of your chosen cartridge, the results can also be sublime.

This is especially true when used in conjunction with a top-notch valve MM phono stage, as to my ears, when the right combinations are achieved, there is a synergy between head amps and valves that is as musically beguiling (although in a different way), as when the same has been achieved with an MC cartridge and SUT - and which cannot be matched when head amps are combined with solid-state MM phono stages.

Furthermore (returning to SUTs), sometimes, depending on what cartridge is used, one can over-egg the pudding, in terms of the 'mellifluous effect' achieved when combining valves and SUTs, with everything sounding a trifle 'too nice'. This is far from automatic, of course, especially if the partnership is right, but I've heard it happen all too often, and I'm not into that sort of 'airy-fairy' sound, which ultimately lacks drive and 'punch', and only suits certain types of music.

If, like me, you have wide and varied tastes in music (and a sizeable collection of such on vinyl), and so one minute can be listening to AC/DC, and the next, some classical Sonatas or solo piano, that simply won't do, as you can start finding that the music you play is being dictated by what sounds best with your SUT...


Agree up to a point with most of this Marco .. though while there are challenges from positioning and cables I don't see that it's a **must** that SUTs have to be in the same box as the phono stage. The best SUT I've ever heard was the external Audio Note S9, staggeringly, gobsmackingly, sell-a-kidney intoxicatingly good (and so it should be at some stupid retail price like £20k or something). I had a Kondo era AN S6-C myself (like the S9, all silver from the coils to the hookup wire to the captive phono leads) that was very special too - and I've had others that were also very very good such as the Hashimoto HM7 and S&B TX103.

What these all had in common - funnily enough, apart from the S9, which has to be ordered in its final, dedicated ratio - is the ability to switch the gain and or loading different cartridges. The S&B has four different levels of gain, 1:20, 1:10, 1:6.5, 1:5 which I had boxed up to also enable several loading option with each one, giving 16 possible settings, plus a bypass setting (and facility for two arms). I had the HM7s similarly boxed up to enable four different settings and facility for two arms. The AN-S6 was built for one arm but had (Japanese style) settings for 1 ohm, 3 ohm, 12 ohm and 40 ohm cartridges - flexible enough to suit anything from the 1 ohm Io to 100 ohm AT-3Mono.

What I'm saying is that to have flexibility you don't necessarily need to have a head amp. I go through so many different cartridges that one SUT wouldn't do me at all if that was the case.

As it happens my current EAR 912 preamp has four settings of MC SUT gain built in, switchable into the MM stage, which it kind of misleadingly labels similarly to the Kondo as corresponding to 3 ohm, 6 ohm, 12 ohm and 40 ohm cartridges (these are actually different gain ratios as opposed to impedances). Although labelled the same, they are not the same coils are in the the EAR MC4, because the 912 has an interstage transformer coupling the phono stage to the preamp section, enabling signal to passed through unchanged (0db) or cut by 6db or 12db, enabling a useful degree of gain matching along with ratio matching - now there's a Swiss Army Knife approach comparable to any head amp on the market. As I mentioned, these are all built into the preamp case and work without hum or fuss, such as can be difficult to achieve with a stand-alone unit.

I've had very good results with several head amps including the Slee Elevator and the Denon HA-500 and HA1000, so I'm far from dismissing head amps as an approach. Where ground loops and hum are an issue, they can be a magic bullet that takes the pain away. But I remain convinced that a good SUT is still the way to go if you want the optimum possible out of a low output moving coil.

[Bigman80]

Personally, having spent a lot of time and money in this area, i can only surmise that neither the SUT nor Head amp approach were ideal in my system.

The SUT's i tried all added a flavour of their own. Some good (MCX, HM-3, Bobs Device) Some bad (Denon 320,FR-3) but non of them were entirely transparent or invisible. The sonic signature was evident from all of them.
Headamps too were at fault for this. The Denon HA-500 added precision and definition but emphasised bass in a way which sounded enhanced. The A&R Headamp was better in this respect but lost the resolution. I have tried multiple head amps which all had positives and negatives.

All of the SUT's and Headamps suffered from Hum/Buzz regardless of where i positioned them or the Cable. The only exception was the Rothwell MCX which didn't give a shit where i put it.It was unaffected and silent in operation.

SUTs create a better 3D picture than Headamps.

Headamps are less fussy with impedance.

Personally, the trauma came to an end when i got a JFET input fitted by Firebottle. Its clean, quiet, has as good a resolution as good anything ive tried, it's transparent, it's natural sounding - no enhanced bass,its got great 3D quality (beaten marginally by the HM-3 in this area), loading is done by loading plugs and best of all costs less than a 1/3 of anything else i tried. I don't feel i am missing anything and definitely believe the HA v SUT is a bigger pain in the arse than its worth. That Magical Synergy is as rare as wooden flies on rocking horse shit. Be prepared to spend spend spend to try and find it and then be prepared to sell it if you change your cartridge.

Its a hiding to nothing. Unless you spend a shitload to find those wooden flies.

Someone will say "oh, what about X,Y,Z!!!!" which costs the same as my car to buy IF they ever turn up on the used market.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Some VERY VERY informative posts from some VERY experienced people. SHIT! I'm still no further far forwards! I've 3 options

1. Stay with the 4 box paradise which is sublime and quite simply the best MC phonostage I have ever heard.
2. Start using a very high pimped croft MM phonostage and SUT/Headamp
3. Start experimenting SUT/headamp with the EAR 834 clone.

:scratch:

[Bigman80]

For me, removing the SUT/Ha Has let me just enjoy the music. Your life will be dominated by comparisons and indecision. Use the paradise, sell everything else [emoji23]

[Mixc]

Some VERY VERY informative posts from some VERY experienced people. SHIT! I'm still no further far forwards! I've 3 options

1. Stay with the 4 box paradise which is sublime and quite simply the best MC phonostage I have ever heard.
2. Start using a very high pimped croft MM phonostage and SUT/Headamp
3. Start experimenting SUT/headamp with the EAR 834 clone.

:scratch:

Ive got an answer for you ...

Buy 2 more decks then you can choose all three...:lol:

Personally i use a head amp and croft mm phono stage..

[montesquieu]

For me, removing the SUT/Ha Has let me just enjoy the music. Your life will be dominated by comparisons and indecision. Use the paradise, sell everything else [emoji23]

Bear in mind that your FET is effectively a fixed gain/fixed impedance head amp on the front of the phono stage ...

Having said that, not necessarily bad advice. I've been buggering around with SUTs for more than a decade and with head amps quite a while before that. It's a long road to go down for something that can be quite elusive.

I'm sure way more than 20 SUTs have come in and out ... in addition to the ones mentioned, several each I'm sure from Partridge, K&K, UTC, Beyerdynamic, Neumann, Ortofon, Denon, Supex and Fidelity Research, plus the usuals like the Blackhead, Luhndal, Cinemag, Supex .. expensive ones like The Head (by Tim de P), EAR MC3, AN-S2, AN-S4 and AN-S6c ... plus quite a few borrowed ones from Koetsu, Miyajima and Art Audio. I'm sure I'm missing a few off that list.

I'm happy now but getting to the destination hasn't exactly been cheap or free of head-scratching .. though to be fair I'm not sure i'd have lost much on any of these - can SUTs do the rounds but generally hold their money.

[Bigman80]

Bear in mind that your FET is effectively a fixed gain/fixed impedance head amp on the front of the phono stage ...

Having said that, not necessarily bad advice. I've been buggering around with SUTs for more than a decade and with head amps quite a while before that. It's a long road to go down for something that can be quite elusive.

I'm sure way more than 20 SUTs have come in and out ... in addition to the ones mentioned, several each I'm sure from Partridge, K&K, UTC, Beyerdynamic, Neumann, Ortofon, Denon, Supex and Fidelity Research, plus the usuals like the Blackhead, Luhndal, Cinemag, Supex .. expensive ones like The Head (by Tim de P), EAR MC3, AN-S2, AN-S4 and AN-S6c ... plus quite a few borrowed ones from Koetsu, Miyajima and Art Audio. I'm sure I'm missing a few off that list.

I'm happy now but getting to the destination hasn't exactly been cheap or free of head-scratching .. though to be fair I'm not sure i'd have lost much on any of these - can SUTs do the rounds but generally hold their money.Yes mate, it's fixed gain/impedance input but a Head amp it ain't. In terms of sonic qualities anyway, find me a more transparent and flexible input and I'll have it installed

Ive tried 3 carts of varying costs (Denon 301, Goldring Eroica and the Kontrapunkt) and the results are all rather sublime. I've no interest in travelling down that road again, it's literally a endless path. Every cart change would require a different SUT. No thanks. Worst bit....I lost money on every one. The good old days of selling for what you paid are over.

[montesquieu]

Yes mate, it's fixed gain/impedance input but a Head amp it ain't. In terms of sonic qualities anyway, find me a more transparent and flexible input and I'll have it installed

Ive tried 3 carts of varying costs (Denon 301, Goldring Eroica and the Kontrapunkt) and the results are all rather sublime. I've no interest in travelling down that road again, it's literally a endless path. Every cart change would require a different SUT. No thanks. Worst bit....I lost money on every one. The good old days of selling for what you paid are over.

Well its been at least a 15 year journey for me ... 'never say never', as they say .. I'd be prepared to bet that the point will come where you have everything else around working nicely, and your mind goes .. 'hmm, I wonder what if .... ?'

[Bigman80]

Well its been at least a 15 year journey for me ... 'never say never', as they say .. I'd be prepared to bet that the point will come where you have everything else around working nicely, and your mind goes .. 'hmm, I wonder what if .... ?'Lol, no chance mate. The Kontrapunkt is a keeper and the phono stage is hitting the right notes so no need. I'll never say never but it would take the planets to align

[Firebottle]

I'd just like to clarify that the Jfet input that Oliver is referring to is a special linearised Jfet circuit that doesn't resemble a traditional head amp.

[Bigman80]

I'd just like to clarify that the Jfet input that Oliver is referring to is a special linearised Jfet circuit that doesn't resemble a traditional head amp.YES!!!!!!! Doesn't sound like any head amp I've heard. I can't say it doesn't have an effect because everything does, the difference is, I don't know if or what it is because it's so transparent. It's been a very much deliberated decision to go with it and I'm very glad that I did.

Best bit is, it's Integrated into the PCB circuit so no RCA connections No cables No interference. Just purity.

[Jimbo]

Sounds like a perfect solution to what could have been a complex problem.

Nice one Oli. Look forward to hearing it although I may have heard something similar in a Firebottle amp ?

[Bigman80]

Sounds like a perfect solution to what could have been a complex problem.

Nice one Oli. Look forward to hearing it although I may have heard something similar in a Firebottle amp ?No Jim,. The JFET circuit can't be implemented in a Headamp. I asked Alan if we could do that so I could see the results before committing the Wizard to surgery. Unfortunately it just isn't possible so it was all in or nothing. The surgery was a huge success and I'm very grateful to Al for allowing his intellectual property to be fitted.

I am looking forward to your comments on it mate. We will sort a day out soon

[Marco]

I've seen quite a few times on various forums that people have bought old transformers to use as a SUT. Often they're transformers from mic preamps. The trouble is, those transformers are often only OK - they will work and you will get a usable signal, but they're less than ideal. This post on this very forum is an example:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?56448-SUT-Problem-Help-needed
The typical source impedance of a dynamic mic is about 200 ohms, whereas the typical source impedance of a LOMC cartridge is more like 10 ohms, so transformers designed for microphones tend to have a lot more windings and higher winding resistances and are generally less than ideal for use with a LOMC cartridge. They will work, but usually with less than fantastic performance. And of course, such transformers will colour the sound and appear to have a certain "character", but the reality is that they're just not optimised for the job they're doing.

All good, and very valid points, Andrew, so thanks for highlighting them. Little in audio is entirely straightforward :)

However, despite that, it is still possible to find some excellent vintage transformers, which can be used very effectively in an audio context, such as those from Jörgen Schou I once bought on ebay, for use with my (then) SPU cartridge. Here's the original thread on AoS, showing some pics:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?16666-J%F6rgen-Schou-step-up-transformers-Type-0-32M-NO-41-for-Ortofon-SPU

Trust me, those were truly superb sonically, and in a way that I've NEVER heard from anything else since!

There was nothing overtly coloured about their sound at all [after all every audio component ever made is coloured to some degree] - just breathtakingly vivid sonics, brimful of sparkling detail and with a gloriously lucid and textured midrange, making vocals and instrumental detail sound uncannily lifelike.

Unfortunately, as I lived with the JS traffos for a while, and listened to them with various different recordings, I discovered that they weren't the best electrical match for the cartridge I was using at the time (had too much gain), so I had to sell them on.

However, aside from that, the sound I heard left an indelible impression on me, and ever since then I've vowed to find some more, this time to suit some of my Denons, and so that will be my intention in due course, and once done, hardwire them into the circuit of my Croft preamp.

No head amp I've heard so far, no matter how good (or 'accurate'), has gotten close to the music magic that those little babies produced! :cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

Agree up to a point with most of this Marco .. though while there are challenges from positioning and cables I don't see that it's a **must** that SUTs have to be in the same box as the phono stage. The best SUT I've ever heard was the external Audio Note S9, staggeringly, gobsmackingly, sell-a-kidney intoxicatingly good (and so it should be at some stupid retail price like £20k or something).


Sure, but for me it's a must if you want to hear the full potential of the transformers concerned. How much better, one wonders, would they have sounded if they had been hardwired into the circuit of the test preamp? 'Good' is great, but 'best' is always better! ;)


I've had very good results with several head amps including the Slee Elevator and the Denon HA-500 and HA1000, so I'm far from dismissing head amps as an approach. Where ground loops and hum are an issue, they can be a magic bullet that takes the pain away. But I remain convinced that a good SUT is still the way to go if you want the optimum possible out of a low output moving coil.

Me too, hence my last post. However, the fundamental fact is that both head amps and SUTs sound different (do things different, musically) and like anything else, have their respective talents. That's why I'd like to have access to good examples of both, and a variety of suitable cartridges to use with them, so I can enjoy their respective 'takes' on my favourite music :cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

Those transformers have an enormous turns ratio of 1:120. For a cartridge with an output of 0.3mV (I'm assuming that's what your cartridge had) that seems like an insanely high ratio. I'd be very interested to measure them but I don't suppose I'll ever get the chance. However, I have measured a SUT with a 1:100 turns ratio. I can't remember the name of it but it wasn't cheap. Its performance with a 10 ohm source (pretty typical of many LOMCs) was diabolical. May have been OK with something like an Audio Note cartridge, but rubbish with something like a modern Audio Technica.
I found similar results with an expensive Audio Note transformer - an extremely high turns ratio with terrible performance when used with a 10 ohm source. Again, probably ok with one of their extremely low output cartridges or an old Ortofon with a similarly low source impedance and output voltage, but rubbish with a typical modern LOMC cartridge. I'm talking about being 3dB down at 12kHz!

Can't argue with that, but as someone who primarily likes using the best vintage cartridges (and in general dislikes how modern LOMCs are 'voiced'), said transformers are a valid option - and they can sound stunning.

As I've said many times before, in the final analysis, I don't give a toss how something measures. How it sounds to my earholes, in my system (with my music) is ultimately what matters most! :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Absolutely, and the big difference is, you build stuff for a living, so you need to use measurements! :)

I don't - I'm just a music lover with (these days) largely a passing interest in hi-fi.

Marco.

[montesquieu]

Those transformers have an enormous turns ratio of 1:120. For a cartridge with an output of 0.3mV (I'm assuming that's what your cartridge had) that seems like an insanely high ratio. I'd be very interested to measure them but I don't suppose I'll ever get the chance. However, I have measured a SUT with a 1:100 turns ratio. I can't remember the name of it but it wasn't cheap. Its performance with a 10 ohm source (pretty typical of many LOMCs) was diabolical. May have been OK with something like an Audio Note cartridge, but rubbish with something like a modern Audio Technica.
I found similar results with an expensive Audio Note transformer - an extremely high turns ratio with terrible performance when used with a 10 ohm source. Again, probably ok with one of their extremely low output cartridges or an old Ortofon with a similarly low source impedance and output voltage, but rubbish with a typical modern LOMC cartridge. I'm talking about being 3dB down at 12kHz!

This makes sense to me. The AN-S9 I referred to previously was for use with an AN-Io, which is 1 ohm at the cartridge coils, and I think the turns ratio was something close to the 1:100 you mention (from memory probably 1:90).

For the most part my cartridges tend to be 'old design', low compliance, and low impedance - I've owned an Io (actually two now I think about it), more typically I use SPUs of 2-4 ohm , the latest Ikeda just arrived (see my recent post about it) is 2 ohm, the Miyajima monos 4-6 ohm. The only 'modern' cartridge in these terms that I use is the Miyajima Madake at 16 ohm. Many of these are also low output (the Io is 0.05mV - yes you read that right).

The AN S6c step-up I had had additional lower gain taps on the silver coils for matching with higher impedance designs but you certainly wouldn't want to use the '1 ohm' input for a 'normal' cartridge!

[Firebottle]

Hi Andrew, I can understand your confusion.

"This thread has me quite baffled. By my definition a solid-state circuit between a LOMC cartridge and an MM/RIAA phonostage is a headamp whether it's built into the phonostage or in a separate box."

In reality it is a 'headamp' in that it is an extra gain stage before an MM input. However the implementation actually gives too much gain for it to be classed as a simple headamp.

"No Jim,. The JFET circuit can't be implemented in a Headamp.
I don't see why not, though I don't know the details of the circuit. Perhaps Firebottle could elaborate on that."

The inclusion of the Jfet in the first stage is done in such a manner that it can't be used individually and give the same outstanding performance.
I know this doesn't satisfy your curiosity but it is something unique as far as I am aware.

:)

[Bigman80]

This thread has me quite baffled. By my definition a solid-state circuit between a LOMC cartridge and an MM/RIAA phonostage is a headamp whether it's built into the phonostage or in a separate box.
Some MC phonostages aren't like that, they're really just an MM phonostage with more gain, so they can't be said to have a headamp built in.

Firebottle fitted a headamp into your phonostage, at least by my definition.

You didn't remove the headamp, you just had it built into the phonostage.

I agree.

Yes it is, at least by my definition.

I don't see why not, though I don't know the details of the circuit. Perhaps Firebottle could elaborate on that.Andrew,

When I said "I removed the Headamp" I was refering to the ones I had on loan here. Same as the SUTs I had either purchased or on loan.

In effect it's a Headamp yes, but without all the emphasis and mechanical signature I heard from the demo units here.

It's really quite simple.

SUTs = Expensive, hard to find synergy, a Unicorn of sorts. A PITA and all the best ones cost the same as a small family car. hard to isolate from hum. Incredibly fussy.

Head amps = Cheaper, less fussy, less magic, sonically impressionable, easy to site.

I wasnt happy with either so went a different route. I'm sure it was mentioned in this thread that a hard wired method to add gain was the best way. I agree.

[Marco]

Head amps = Cheaper, less fussy, less magic, sonically impressionable, easy to site.


I presume that's only your opinion, daftee (based on relatively limited experience with them), not a statement of fact? One should always guard against becoming absolutist;)

I know where you're coming from, but there are some superb head amps around, that when used in the *right context* can offer all the 'magic' you need, and truly superlative results, which at some point you may get to hear, and after which may prompt further re-evaluation of the matter.

What does "sonically impressionable" mean, btw? :hmm:

Anyway, the important thing is that, for now, you've found a viable solution that works for YOU, and that puts the whole SUT vs. headamp 'headache' temporarily to bed. In this game, the main focus should always be on the music! :)

Marco.

[Bigman80]

I presume that's only your opinion, daftee (based on relatively limited experience with them), not a statement of fact? One should always guard against becoming absolutist;)

I know where you're coming from, but there are some superb head amps around, which when used in the *right context*, can offer all the magic you need, and truly superlative results, which at some point you may get to hear, and after which may prompt further re-evaluation of the matter.

What does "sonically impressionable" mean, btw? :hmm:

Anyway, the important thing is that, for now, you've found a viable solution that works for YOU, and that puts the whole SUT vs. headamp 'headache' to bed. In this game, the main focus should always be on the music! :)

Marco.Of course, only my opinion. Others are free to disagree.

It's not an absolute, more a state of mind due to budget and what's available in that.

"Sonically impressionable"

I'm trying to say that anything I demoed had a sonic footprint. I could hear what it was adding or missing. That frustrated me greatly. The JFET, is probably doing something somewhere but i don't know what because it's not apparent. The SUTs and headamps were blatantly obvious where in the audio band they either added or lacked.

All opinion but based on experience rather than theory.

[montesquieu]

Yes, I agree. I'm kind of shooting myself in the foot here having said that most modern LOMCs fall into a fairly narrow spectrum and a 1:10 transformer will suit the majority, but your examples illustrate the potential problems of using cartridges well outside the modern mainstream. Yes, for a cartridge with a 1 ohm source impedance and an output of 0.05mV, a 1:100 turns ratio makes sense. The temptation for the unwary is to think "this is an expensive transformer, it must be good, I'll use it with my Audio Technica OC9", but the results could be very disappointing.

And could well be my main challenge with head amps .. these low output, low compliance, low impedance 'vintage' (whether in absolute age or in terms of design) cartridges have generally disappointed with active gain, and blossomed with quality, appropriately matched SUTs (and appropriately matched heavy tonearms). Could also account for Hugo's positive experiences with the 16 ohm Miyajimas and his Paul Hynes head amp, being more mainstream in impedance, if still moderately lowish output at 0.23mV.

[Firebottle]

Ok, let me take a guess. The JFET part has a lot more gain than 20dB, so you have modified the MM/RIAA part of the circuit to have less gain to compensate. If so, that makes sense and would explain why the JFET circuit wouldn't be suitable to have in front of a typical MM/RIAA phonostage with about 40dB gain.

You are on the right lines but it doesn't tell all the story :D