Frontend upgrade path

[magiccarpetride]

I am currently using Systemdek IIX with Rega RB300 and Denon DL-103 into Denon AU-310 SUT feeding into Emotiva XPS-1 MM phono stage. I am enjoying the sound immensely, but have caught the 'upgraditis' bug and started wondering what can be done to push the sound to the next level?

I have sort of three options to consider:

1. Upgrade the cartridge
2. Upgrade the tonearm
3. Upgrade the phono stage

(I am not considering upgrading the turntable, as I like my Systemdek and feel that only a big bucks upgrade would make things better).

My budget is between $500 - $1,000 (although I could push it a bit north of a grand, if I could be convinced that it is going to make a substantial difference).

I hasten to add that I am enamoured by the Denon DL-103 sound. I love that overly enthusiastic, hefty, fiery and full bodied presentation. But I am fully aware that it has a lowly conical stylus, which probably means I'm missing some finer details buried deeper in the microgrooves. So I'd be interested in trying different, more sophisticated cartridges, but only if they'd approximate the Denon's savage sound. I'm not interested in delicate, airy, light-as-a-feather refined sound. But I'd be willing to trade some of the wild and reckless Denon features for a more controlled, more detailed presentation. But only up to a point.

If I stay with Denon, my next option would be replacing Rega RB300 with Jelco, or some other heavier tonearm. Many claim that increasing the tonearm weight should propel DL-103 to new heights, and Jelco seems to fall within my budgetary constraints. Not 100% convinced that it will substantially better the RB300, but I remain open to be convinced otherwise.

Lastly, the phono stage. I found match made in heaven when I paired Denon DL-103 with Denon AU-310 SUT. They work hand-in-the-glove. So maybe everything upstream from my Emotiva phono is hunky-dory, and maybe by improving the phono I'll gain entry to the next level?

I did some reading and learned that Jolida JD9 v2 is being praised by many as a good tube phono. When I visited my dealer yesterday asking for Jolida, he pushed back and tried to convince me that such a cheapo tube phono cannot possibly result in quality sound. Instead, he suggested I go with Clearaudio Basic +. Now, it's sometimes hard to tell with salespeople if they're being straight, or if they're pushing some hidden agenda which benefits their commission. Again, I remain open to suggestions.

[walpurgis]

I actually think your turntable, arm, cartridge and SUT are well matched and you'd need to spend considerably more to obtain a significant improvement.

I'm not familiar with your phono stage, but I doubt the dealer suggestion of the Clearaudio Basic + would be much of a leg up in quality.

If you'd like a touch of tube fun without breaking the bank, you could look at the US made Bellari VP130 which offers great value. It's a good sounding unit.

Some user reviews if you're interested: http://www.audioreview.com/product/amplification/phono-preamps/rolls/bellari-vp-130.html

I'd say they sum it up well enough.





.

[Firebottle]

First off the Bellari has a fairly low level of gain so you might struggle for level. I've also read that the standard power supply is somewhat lacking.

Secondly the Jolida is not a tube phono stage, it is an IC based phono with a tube buffer on the end of it. However I have heard it and think it gives a very good sound and if anything has too much gain.
You can try it with direct MC input as well, not using the SUT, so have a level of choice and sound presentation to experiment with.

I haven't heard a Clearaudio, if the salesman is so keen to push it can he offer a home trial? That is always best.
Good luck.

[walpurgis]

First off the Bellari has a fairly low level of gain so you might struggle for level. I've also read that the standard power supply is somewhat lacking.

I owned the identical VP129. The wall wart power supplies are different spec but that's all. I loved the little thing, it sounded unbelievably good at it's price. There were no level issues.

[magiccarpetride]

I actually think your turntable, arm, cartridge and SUT are well matched and you'd need to spend considerably more to obtain a significant improvement.

I'm not familiar with your phono stage, but I doubt the dealer suggestion of the Clearaudio Basic + would be much of a leg up in quality.

If you'd like a touch of tube fun without breaking the bank, you could look at the US made Bellari VP130 which offers great value. It's a good sounding unit.

Some user reviews if you're interested: http://www.audioreview.com/product/amplification/phono-preamps/rolls/bellari-vp-130.html

I'd say they sum it up well enough.





.

Thanks for your thoughtful answer and for a very interesting suggestion, Geoff. Which tubes do you recommend I get to replace the bog Chinese ones shipping with Bellari?

Also, can I use some kind of rechargeable battery to power it?

[magiccarpetride]

First off the Bellari has a fairly low level of gain so you might struggle for level. I've also read that the standard power supply is somewhat lacking.

Secondly the Jolida is not a tube phono stage, it is an IC based phono with a tube buffer on the end of it. However I have heard it and think it gives a very good sound and if anything has too much gain.
You can try it with direct MC input as well, not using the SUT, so have a level of choice and sound presentation to experiment with.

I haven't heard a Clearaudio, if the salesman is so keen to push it can he offer a home trial? That is always best.
Good luck.

So even DL-103 into Denon AU 310 SUT will not be sufficient gain level for Bellari?

[Firebottle]

When I said struggle for level maybe I was being a bit OTT.
The Bellari has a published gain of 30dB whereas the usual gain of an MM stage is 40dB.

:)

[walpurgis]

Thanks for your thoughtful answer and for a very interesting suggestion, Geoff. Which tubes do you recommend I get to replace the bog Chinese ones shipping with Bellari?

Also, can I use some kind of rechargeable battery to power it?

I left mine with the standard tube. Didn't see much point in playing around with it as it sounded excellent as it was.

Same with the standard power supply, I stuck with that as it worked fine. Using batteries could be tricky, I've seen the Bellari's marked 12v DC which would be OK with batteries, but also 15v examples and some with AC inputs. It would depend on which one you tried I guess.

[Soundeck]

I would be happy for you to try the Soundeck PM platter mat and a set of the DF Damping feet. If you don't like them I'll give you a full refund. Below is an email I received from a customer last week. Kind Regards.. Les Thompson

Hi Les,
I first heard about the original Sound Dead Steel products around 2006 after reading about modifications to the Technics SL1200 in HiFi World magazine.
I think David Price raved about it at the time and I always wanted to eventually try one.
I’m lucky enough to have a couple of systems (1 Valve, 1 Solid State) and altogether I have three different turntables that I like to switch between the two.
The Technics I have is an ongoing experiment and the SDS platter matt is the latest addition to try and improve its performance.

In the short time I have used it I would say the mat has improved everything, tightening up the Bass allowing to hear better separation between instruments, and somehow increasing the soundstage presented by the cartridge.
I have placed the damping feet under a Rega P9 turntable and they have helped improve its isolation from the other equipment it’s connected to, and also the noise floor level has improved.
Quieter moments in music seem to be coming across quieter, if that makes any sense 

In general the products have all made an improvement to my set up and I plan to experiment with them a lot more in the coming months.
I would say (apart from the cost of shipping to the other side of the world) all represent good value for money.

All the best
Steve wells.



I am currently using Systemdek IIX with Rega RB300 and Denon DL-103 into Denon AU-310 SUT feeding into Emotiva XPS-1 MM phono stage. I am enjoying the sound immensely, but have caught the 'upgraditis' bug and started wondering what can be done to push the sound to the next level?

I have sort of three options to consider:

1. Upgrade the cartridge
2. Upgrade the tonearm
3. Upgrade the phono stage

(I am not considering upgrading the turntable, as I like my Systemdek and feel that only a big bucks upgrade would make things better).

My budget is between $500 - $1,000 (although I could push it a bit north of a grand, if I could be convinced that it is going to make a substantial difference).

I hasten to add that I am enamoured by the Denon DL-103 sound. I love that overly enthusiastic, hefty, fiery and full bodied presentation. But I am fully aware that it has a lowly conical stylus, which probably means I'm missing some finer details buried deeper in the microgrooves. So I'd be interested in trying different, more sophisticated cartridges, but only if they'd approximate the Denon's savage sound. I'm not interested in delicate, airy, light-as-a-feather refined sound. But I'd be willing to trade some of the wild and reckless Denon features for a more controlled, more detailed presentation. But only up to a point.

If I stay with Denon, my next option would be replacing Rega RB300 with Jelco, or some other heavier tonearm. Many claim that increasing the tonearm weight should propel DL-103 to new heights, and Jelco seems to fall within my budgetary constraints. Not 100% convinced that it will substantially better the RB300, but I remain open to be convinced otherwise.

Lastly, the phono stage. I found match made in heaven when I paired Denon DL-103 with Denon AU-310 SUT. They work hand-in-the-glove. So maybe everything upstream from my Emotiva phono is hunky-dory, and maybe by improving the phono I'll gain entry to the next level?

I did some reading and learned that Jolida JD9 v2 is being praised by many as a good tube phono. When I visited my dealer yesterday asking for Jolida, he pushed back and tried to convince me that such a cheapo tube phono cannot possibly result in quality sound. Instead, he suggested I go with Clearaudio Basic +. Now, it's sometimes hard to tell with salespeople if they're being straight, or if they're pushing some hidden agenda which benefits their commission. Again, I remain open to suggestions.

[walpurgis]

I do wonder about using isolating feet with turntables that have a suspended sub-chassis. It introduces another compliance. This may of course work in combination with the existing compliance of the sub-chassis suspension or may create unpredictable interferences. Suck it and see I guess.

[Svend N]

Alex,

I reading your post, a few things occurred to me that you might consider to improve on what you currently have, rather than replacing parts right away. Ignore these if you've tried them already tried them.

First, you might try adding a small weighted shim to your headshell to give the tonearm a bit more mass. The RB300 is on the lighter side of med. mass, and mated with the DL-103 which is lowish compliance, it may benefit from a few grams extra mass. Keep in mind you may have to tweak your VTA if the 103 is sensitive to it.

Next, have you rewired the tonearm? I have heard that the RB300 really changes dramatically if you get a quality rewire job done by a pro. A single run between headshell and RCAs is said to be best. Between a rewire and a headshell weight/shim, you may not need another tonearm.

Re. VTA, have you considered some of the VTA adjusters on the market? Again, this may be moot if the conical stylus of the 103 is not sensitive to VTA (it may not be). Would be worth researching, as VTA can make a huge difference to some stylii.

There are also a number of aftermarket "upgrades" for Rega arms, some of which may work, others may be a total waste of money. I'd be careful what you choose if you're considering something like that. I think the most fundamental change you can make is a good counterweight -- I have the stock Rega tungsten one on mine, which works great and is said to be an improvement over the larger steel one. There's a fellow in your area selling aftermarket tungsten weights that might be worth a look (let me know if you need a link).

Now to the deck itself... Have you played around with things like improving isolation and reducing vibration and resonances within the deck? I side with Geoff on this one, that you should avoid squishy feet on a suspended deck as it is said to counteract the work that the suspension is trying to do. I also have a suspended deck (Heybrook TT2) and will be experimenting with isolation soon, but will be looking at light and rigid platforms coupled to spiky feet. When I added Michell Tenderfeet cones to the bottom of the deck it made an immediate and noticeable improvement in imaging and detail.

How about platter mats? Again, my experience is a bit limited, and further experimentation is ongoing :), but I have found that the standard felt mats sound very different to, say, a cork mat. The felt are a bit hazy and indistinct sounding, whereas the cork greatly improved imaging, detail and tonal range. I will make up a leather one soon to see how that sounds. There are some rather fancy ones out there which may or may not work well on a suspended deck. Have you tried any other than the stock one?

I hope this helps you. Depending on how much you've worked at optimizing your turntable, you may be able to transform the sound without doing anything drastic or expensive. If you do all of the above it shouldn't cost you more than C$500. In any case, there's something to be said for getting the fundamentals right in a turntable, regardless of whether you decide to upgrade cart or tonearm now or later. I'd recommend optimizing its performance first, and then looking at what needs upgrading. That way you know the deck is performing at its best, and that you're getting the best out of that expensive upgrade if you do decide to go ahead with it. I think that in your case this is especially relevant since you really like the sound as it presently is -- swapping out cart and/or tonearm is going to completely change that sound and you may regret it. Maybe better to work with what you already have and improve on it?

Enjoy the ride!

Svend

[magiccarpetride]

Alex,

I reading your post, a few things occurred to me that you might consider to improve on what you currently have, rather than replacing parts right away. Ignore these if you've tried them already tried them.

First, you might try adding a small weighted shim to your headshell to give the tonearm a bit more mass. The RB300 is on the lighter side of med. mass, and mated with the DL-103 which is lowish compliance, it may benefit from a few grams extra mass. Keep in mind you may have to tweak your VTA if the 103 is sensitive to it.

Next, have you rewired the tonearm? I have heard that the RB300 really changes dramatically if you get a quality rewire job done by a pro. A single run between headshell and RCAs is said to be best. Between a rewire and a headshell weight/shim, you may not need another tonearm.

Re. VTA, have you considered some of the VTA adjusters on the market? Again, this may be moot if the conical stylus of the 103 is not sensitive to VTA (it may not be). Would be worth researching, as VTA can make a huge difference to some stylii.

There are also a number of aftermarket "upgrades" for Rega arms, some of which may work, others may be a total waste of money. I'd be careful what you choose if you're considering something like that. I think the most fundamental change you can make is a good counterweight -- I have the stock Rega tungsten one on mine, which works great and is said to be an improvement over the larger steel one. There's a fellow in your area selling aftermarket tungsten weights that might be worth a look (let me know if you need a link).

Now to the deck itself... Have you played around with things like improving isolation and reducing vibration and resonances within the deck? I side with Geoff on this one, that you should avoid squishy feet on a suspended deck as it is said to counteract the work that the suspension is trying to do. I also have a suspended deck (Heybrook TT2) and will be experimenting with isolation soon, but will be looking at light and rigid platforms coupled to spiky feet. When I added Michell Tenderfeet cones to the bottom of the deck it made an immediate and noticeable improvement in imaging and detail.

How about platter mats? Again, my experience is a bit limited, and further experimentation is ongoing :), but I have found that the standard felt mats sound very different to, say, a cork mat. The felt are a bit hazy and indistinct sounding, whereas the cork greatly improved imaging, detail and tonal range. I will make up a leather one soon to see how that sounds. There are some rather fancy ones out there which may or may not work well on a suspended deck. Have you tried any other than the stock one?

I hope this helps you. Depending on how much you've worked at optimizing your turntable, you may be able to transform the sound without doing anything drastic or expensive. If you do all of the above it shouldn't cost you more than C$500. In any case, there's something to be said for getting the fundamentals right in a turntable, regardless of whether you decide to upgrade cart or tonearm now or later. I'd recommend optimizing its performance first, and then looking at what needs upgrading. That way you know the deck is performing at its best, and that you're getting the best out of that expensive upgrade if you do decide to go ahead with it. I think that in your case this is especially relevant since you really like the sound as it presently is -- swapping out cart and/or tonearm is going to completely change that sound and you may regret it. Maybe better to work with what you already have and improve on it?

Enjoy the ride!

Svend

Thanks for the fantastic suggestions and recommendations, Svend. Here is the current situation with regards to front end upgrades:

1. TT platter upgraded with a high quality mat (the guy who modded the platter told me that he thinks adding any mats would only degrade the sound)
2. Rega RB300 rewired
3. Rega RB300 counterweight upgraded

I had decided to ignore his advice regarding the platter mat and played with felt mats. The outcome was that, to my ears, the sound tightened and became more forward, less laid back and less effortless (which is the hallmark sound of this combo, effortless yet very enthusiastic). So I had discontinued my experimentations with mats.

Haven't tried adding shims to increase the tonearm weight. Sounds like that'll be a worthwhile experiment, so I'll pursue that.

Improving isolation and reducing vibrations is definitely something that's on my mind, but not sure how to go about improving that. Any specific hints/tips?

Thanks again!

[magiccarpetride]

When I said struggle for level maybe I was being a bit OTT.
The Bellari has a published gain of 30dB whereas the usual gain of an MM stage is 40dB.

:)

Hmm, that's worth some consideration. I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

[magiccarpetride]

I left mine with the standard tube. Didn't see much point in playing around with it as it sounded excellent as it was.

Same with the standard power supply, I stuck with that as it worked fine. Using batteries could be tricky, I've seen the Bellari's marked 12v DC which would be OK with batteries, but also 15v examples and some with AC inputs. It would depend on which one you tried I guess.

I read somewhere yesterday that it is recommended to let the tubes break in before jumping to conclusions regarding the sound quality. Is that your experience as well?

I have a linear power supply that could be used to power Bellari. I'll experiment with it once the unit arrives, and will post my findings here.

[magiccarpetride]

I would be happy for you to try the Soundeck PM platter mat and a set of the DF Damping feet. If you don't like them I'll give you a full refund. Below is an email I received from a customer last week. Kind Regards.. Les Thompson

Hi Les,
I first heard about the original Sound Dead Steel products around 2006 after reading about modifications to the Technics SL1200 in HiFi World magazine.
I think David Price raved about it at the time and I always wanted to eventually try one.
I’m lucky enough to have a couple of systems (1 Valve, 1 Solid State) and altogether I have three different turntables that I like to switch between the two.
The Technics I have is an ongoing experiment and the SDS platter matt is the latest addition to try and improve its performance.

In the short time I have used it I would say the mat has improved everything, tightening up the Bass allowing to hear better separation between instruments, and somehow increasing the soundstage presented by the cartridge.
I have placed the damping feet under a Rega P9 turntable and they have helped improve its isolation from the other equipment it’s connected to, and also the noise floor level has improved.
Quieter moments in music seem to be coming across quieter, if that makes any sense 

In general the products have all made an improvement to my set up and I plan to experiment with them a lot more in the coming months.
I would say (apart from the cost of shipping to the other side of the world) all represent good value for money.

All the best
Steve wells.

Thanks for the offer , Les. I'm always open to trying things out, so let me know how should I proceed.

[Stratmangler]

Use self adhesive bitumen damping material (your local automotive spares store can usually supply this), and use it to dampen the plinth, and the suspended sub-chassis.

[walpurgis]

I read somewhere yesterday that it is recommended to let the tubes break in before jumping to conclusions regarding the sound quality. Is that your experience as well?

I have a linear power supply that could be used to power Bellari. I'll experiment with it once the unit arrives, and will post my findings here.

I noticed no tube break-in with mine. It sounded fine out of the box and carried on that way.

A linear power supply could be good. Check whether the Bellari is AC or DC. I've seen both.

I have a decent phono stage, but the Bellari is the only phono stage I wish I'd kept, It never put a foot wrong and sounded great. The integral headphone amp is OK too, although I hardly used it.

[Svend N]

Thanks for the fantastic suggestions and recommendations, Svend. Here is the current situation with regards to front end upgrades:

1. TT platter upgraded with a high quality mat (the guy who modded the platter told me that he thinks adding any mats would only degrade the sound)
2. Rega RB300 rewired
3. Rega RB300 counterweight upgraded

I had decided to ignore his advice regarding the platter mat and played with felt mats. The outcome was that, to my ears, the sound tightened and became more forward, less laid back and less effortless (which is the hallmark sound of this combo, effortless yet very enthusiastic). So I had discontinued my experimentations with mats.

Haven't tried adding shims to increase the tonearm weight. Sounds like that'll be a worthwhile experiment, so I'll pursue that.

Improving isolation and reducing vibrations is definitely something that's on my mind, but not sure how to go about improving that. Any specific hints/tips?

Thanks again!

Hi Alex,

Sounds good on the mat, rewire and counterweight! Nice one. Which mat did you finally settle on? A felt one?

I'm not familiar with your deck, so perhaps others can better advise on tweaks that work for a Systemdek. But in principle I would look to damp any surfaces that might resonate or vibrate. In my case, on my Heybrook, I will be doing as Chris suggested above, and adding some adhesive bitumen damping to the bottom plate to see if that improves things. The bottom plate in question is a sheet of 1/4" press-board covering the full bottom cavity, so lots of surface there to vibrate. Other Heybrook owners report that dampening, or even removing it altogether, helps things. If your deck has something similar, then have at it. Also, if the structure of the plinth (corner joints, bracing, etc.) seems a little wimpy, then you could add some strength there with corner blocks or other bracing. If the subchassis looks like it could resonate, then a few pieces of adhesive bitumen on that might help too. Again, Systemdek owners could give good advice here.

An alternative to bitumen sheets is sorbothane, available at Amazon.ca in self-adhesive sheets. I think Parts Connexion in Burlington may also have something like this for a reasonable price.

As for footers, I can vouch for cones. As mentioned, I use Michell Tenderfeet, which you can get at Artech Electronics in Montreal. There are lots of other choices here, including spikes that screw into the plinth. I'll be looking for a light and rigid platform to put my Heybrook on -- not sure what I will use as yet...some sort of foamcore board perhaps, if I can find it. I plan to put spikes or cones beneath the platform, and keep the deck sitting on its own cones. I'll post back once I try it.

Hope this helps....

Cheers,
Svend

[Stratmangler]

In my case, on my Heybrook, I will be doing as Chris suggested above, and adding some adhesive bitumen damping to the bottom plate to see if that improves things. The bottom plate in question is a sheet of 1/4" press-board covering the full bottom cavity, so lots of surface there to vibrate

I knew there was something I'd forgotten :doh:
Remove the bottom plate and throw it away ...

[Svend N]

I knew there was something I'd forgotten :doh:
Remove the bottom plate and throw it away ...

Could do...but it seems to be helping support the Michell cones at the moment. I'd have to use different cones, perhaps ones that could be screwed into the plinth bracing. Gotta think about that a bit... :scratch:

If the plate stays in place and is adequately damped, would it not help prevent airborne vibrations from reaching the subchassis, and perhaps also strengthen the plinth? Just theorizing here....

[magiccarpetride]

Use self adhesive bitumen damping material (your local automotive spares store can usually supply this), and use it to dampen the plinth, and the suspended sub-chassis.

This stands to reason. When I think about the tiny rock bouncing around the microscopic groove, it is easy to imagine that any vibration must interfere with its trajectory. And since its trajectory is the signal, messing with that signal is only going to amplify and magnify the noise.

So dampening is the way to go. Are there any photos on the net illustrating how does a well dampened underbelly of Systemdek IIX look like? I'd like to do it, but I don't want to mess things up.

[Soundeck]

Would you like to road test a set? Soundeck DF Damping Feet, previously know as Sound Damped Steel IsoFeet.

[Marco]

Hi Leslie,

Welcome back. I'm afraid you'll need to renew your trade account before attempting to sell things again to members. I tried contacting you several times last year, when your account was due for renewal, sadly to no avail.

Therefore, if you wish to start trading again, please PM me ASAP to arrange making the necessary payment, otherwise I'll have no option but to close your account. Many thanks! :cool:

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

I knew there was something I'd forgotten :doh:
Remove the bottom plate and throw it away ...

You know... of all the upgrades and crazy tweaks I've heard of throughout the years, this one sounded the most outlandish. Remove the bottom plate? Like, really? Why?

So this evening, for a lark, I did just that. Removed the bottom plate and sat down to give it a listen, with a smirk. Played Van Morrison "Moondance".

Holy molly! My jaw dropped to the floor! What the...

I couldn't tear myself away from Systemdek. One LP after another, rediscovering the music, basking in the sonic marvels. How's this possible? A stupid lowly bottom plate robs this turntable of such precision. I'm stumped.

[magiccarpetride]

Use self adhesive bitumen damping material (your local automotive spares store can usually supply this), and use it to dampen the plinth, and the suspended sub-chassis.

What's your opinion on placing Systemdek on the spikes? Now that I've removed the bottom plate and realized what a phenomenal upgrade it is, I'm wondering if further isolation via the spikes would improve things or not.

[walpurgis]

The base cover acts like a drum skin and resonates, as does the air it encloses within the turntable base.

[Svend N]

Alex - wow! Great to hear that that simple little tweak made so much difference. Makes me want to hurry up and sort that out on my Heybrook now.

Geoff, would removing the base plate be preferable to just damping it with bitumen or sorbothane? I think that in the Heybrook the plinth is sufficiently braced that the flimsy base plate really doesn't add anything to the rigidity of the whole affair. But I wonder if the bitumen would stop the resonating sufficiently that I could just leave it on. Presently it's supporting the rather wide cones that the deck is sitting on, so if I took it off I'd have to use other feet or add blocks to the plinth. The other option, I suppose, is to cut a large hole in the base plate to open up the air space, and then dampen the remainder with bitumen.

Alex, as for spikes, I think the impact of placing the deck on spikes depends in part on what component rack it's presently sitting on. In my case, the Heybrook is in a large armoire with particleboard shelving (not ideal, I know, but for now it's all we've got), and placing it on three small size Michell Tenderfeet cones made a very significant difference. If your rack has excellent isolation then you may notice a more subtle difference. You just have to try it. But it's a cheap experiment and is instantly reversible - just slip the cones under (hold 'em with double-sided tape if need be) and have a listen. If no change, then use them under your CD player or something else. For what you get, the Michell feet are a little pricey here in Canada -- Parts Connexion in Burlington has lots of other options for less money.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/isolation_connex.html
http://www.artech-electronics.com/canada/index.html

[walpurgis]

Geoff, would removing the base plate be preferable to just damping it with bitumen or sorbothane?

In my opinion, removal of the base cover is likely to be the best option. Ensuring of course that precautions are taken to ensure that anything with live mains voltage is covered or inaccessible.

The opened base/plinth sides can be lined with damping sheet, possibly to good effect.

Rigidly fixed spikes or cones may be helpful. I'd not use double sided tape to fix them, as that introduces a small amount of compliance, defeating the intended rigidity. Glue on or screw on I'd say.

[Svend N]

Good advice - thanks Geoff. I'll have to do some mods to the base to make that work. Easy enough to do though. And yes, electricals all have to be protected -- there's no way I am taping an aluminum cone to the bottom of an open plinth with all that wiring there. One nudge and Poof! Bang! up in smoke.

[walpurgis]

there's no way I am taping an aluminum cone to the bottom of an open plinth

Not tape, glue or screw for optimum results.

[walpurgis]

By the way. When employing cones or spikes, I prefer a three point configuration where possible. One central at the rear and one in each front corner. That eliminates any chance of rocking. It's not always viable though, as some equipment has a significant weight bias to one side or the other.

[Stratmangler]

What's your opinion on placing Systemdek on the spikes? Now that I've removed the bottom plate and realized what a phenomenal upgrade it is, I'm wondering if further isolation via the spikes would improve things or not.

I just sat mine on sorbethane feet.
Every TT I've had was sensitive to what it sat on. I wouldn't use spikes because they couple the deck to the supporting structure.

The car body damping panels were something like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Silent-Coat-2mm-10-Sheets-Car-Deadening-Vibration-Sound-Proofing-Damping-Mat/1652587028?iid=161282941044

I will post some photos of the underside of the Systemdek.
Might take a day or two ......

[walpurgis]

I wouldn't use spikes because they couple the deck to the supporting structure.

That's the whole idea. Suspended subchassis decks often respond well to being coupled to what they stand on. Assuming it is stable and solid.

[Stratmangler]

That's the whole idea. Suspended subchassis decks often respond well to being coupled to what they stand on. Assuming it is stable and solid.

Tried spikes.
Didn't do it for me.
Much prefer something lossy to sit the deck on.

[magiccarpetride]

In my opinion, removal of the base cover is likely to be the best option. Ensuring of course that precautions are taken to ensure that anything with live mains voltage is covered or inaccessible.

The opened base/plinth sides can be lined with damping sheet, possibly to good effect.

Rigidly fixed spikes or cones may be helpful. I'd not use double sided tape to fix them, as that introduces a small amount of compliance, defeating the intended rigidity. Glue on or screw on I'd say.

Yes, that's why I wanted to ask first if it would make sense to put Systemdek on spikes. Because I would glue the spikes with crazy glue, but if it turns out it degrades the sound, I'm not sure whether it would be possible to unglue them?

[magiccarpetride]

Tried spikes.
Didn't do it for me.
Much prefer something lossy to sit the deck on.

Thanks for the insight, Chris. I have my Systemdek sitting on one of those 'audiophile' wooden trays (bought it from a local audiophile shop when they were going out of business, got it for fraction of the price).

I was experimenting with different supporting shelves for the turntable, settled on a very rigid, thin table that has thin metal legs and a thin MDF surface. Not sure if that's the best solution, but couldn't go for something more audiophile-approved because of the low wife appeal ;)

[magiccarpetride]

I just sat mine on sorbethane feet.
Every TT I've had was sensitive to what it sat on. I wouldn't use spikes because they couple the deck to the supporting structure.

The car body damping panels were something like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Silent-Coat-2mm-10-Sheets-Car-Deadening-Vibration-Sound-Proofing-Damping-Mat/1652587028?iid=161282941044

I will post some photos of the underside of the Systemdek.
Might take a day or two ......

Thanks Chris, really looking forward (impatiently) to your photos :)

It's for some bloody reason proving difficult to find those damping materials here in Vancouver. I talked to Home Depot and the local Canadian Tire, and they're absolutely clueless. Seems like the only thing local retailers know how to push nowadays is cell phones and cases for cell phones, plus some accessories. That's basically the gist of the Vancouver economy (that, and Ferraris and Lamborghinis for rich money launderers).

[walpurgis]

Yes, that's why I wanted to ask first if it would make sense to put Systemdek on spikes. Because I would glue the spikes with crazy glue, but if it turns out it degrades the sound, I'm not sure whether it would be possible to unglue them?

As a try out, you can stand the spikes the 'wrong way up' (points up) on your turntable stand or shelf and have the points against the wood turntable base. That'll give much of a similar effect to having spikes the correct way up and obviously easily undone. Then you'll get an idea if it's worth pursuing with spikes bonded to the base (the right way up of course).

[walpurgis]

Thanks Chris, really looking forward (impatiently) to your photos :)

It's for some bloody reason proving difficult to find those damping materials here in Vancouver. I talked to Home Depot and the local Canadian Tire, and they're absolutely clueless. Seems like the only thing local retailers know how to push nowadays is cell phones and cases for cell phones, plus some accessories. That's basically the gist of the Vancouver economy (that, and Ferraris and Lamborghinis for rich money launderers).

'Dynamat' available on ebay Canada: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dynamat-Xtreme10415-10-x-10-Self-Adhesive-Sound-Vibration-Deadener-2x-PAIR/323083315138?hash=item4b394427c2:g:uOkAAOSwv8FZ4h4 0

[magiccarpetride]

As a try out, you can stand the spikes the 'wrong way up' (points up) on your turntable stand or shelf and have the points against the wood turntable base. That'll give much of a similar effect to having spikes the correct way up and obviously easily undone. Then you'll get an idea if it's worth pursuing with spikes bonded to the base (the right way up of course).

Excellent advice, thanks Geoff.

[Svend N]

Thanks Chris, really looking forward (impatiently) to your photos :)

It's for some bloody reason proving difficult to find those damping materials here in Vancouver. I talked to Home Depot and the local Canadian Tire, and they're absolutely clueless. Seems like the only thing local retailers know how to push nowadays is cell phones and cases for cell phones, plus some accessories. That's basically the gist of the Vancouver economy (that, and Ferraris and Lamborghinis for rich money launderers).


Alex,

Here are some more Canadian sources of the self-adhesive damping material:

http://www.partsconnexion.com/damping_soundcoat.html

https://www.amazon.ca/Isolate-Sorbothane-Acoustic-Vibration-Adhesive/dp/B019M3KJC4/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1519410463&sr=8-29&keywords=sorbothane

If you want to go local, try an auto parts store like NAPA, or an appliance parts store (it's used to silence dishwashers and steel kitchen sinks).

[magiccarpetride]

Alex,

Here are some more Canadian sources of the self-adhesive damping material:

http://www.partsconnexion.com/damping_soundcoat.html

https://www.amazon.ca/Isolate-Sorbothane-Acoustic-Vibration-Adhesive/dp/B019M3KJC4/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1519410463&sr=8-29&keywords=sorbothane

If you want to go local, try an auto parts store like NAPA, or an appliance parts store (it's used to silence dishwashers and steel kitchen sinks).

Thank you, Svend. Went to NAPA on the 3rd avenue, of course they don't have it. Went to few other auto parts stores that were recommended to me along the way, no one has it.

But this exercise in futility is not all bad. The silver lining is that now I have an answer to the question: "How come Jeff Bezos is the richest person in history?"

[Svend N]

This should do the trick, only $19 at Crappy Tire:

http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/3m-sound-reduction-mat-0477913p.html

[magiccarpetride]

This should do the trick, only $19 at Crappy Tire:

http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/3m-sound-reduction-mat-0477913p.html

Thanks Svend. I finally lucked out yesterday (after a long and frustrating search) and got me some dynamat. I applied it to the plinth, covered as much area as I could.

Folks, it is true what Chris said, this tweak brings Systemdek to the next level. I literally could not recognize the sound of my deck. I could not stop listening, because many of my favourite LPs started sounding like brand new records.

On the downside (there is always a downside, right?) this improvement now makes badly pressed LPs unlistenable. What used to be passable pressings are now unbearable drivel. A case in point: the Beatles White Album. I have two pressings -- the 2012 remaster from the 2009 digital remaster, and the original Capitol pressing.

The 2012 remaster sounds dead and limp. Instead of music, all I get is a holographic projection of the band. There is no punch, no sparkle, the bass is weak and pale.

The original Capitol pressing is a distorted mess now (I used to enjoy this pressing a lot before I made the upgrade). "Back In The USSR" is now shrill, piercing track that makes me want to cover my ears and skip to the next track. The worst experience was "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" which, towards the end, becomes a screeching mess.

I don't want to start another thread, but what are the recommended pressings of the White Album? Now that we're in the 50th anniversary of that double LP, I wanna find a good, listenable pressing to bask in the glory of White Album.

[Svend N]

Hey Alex -- this is great news. So happy these little tweaks have worked out so well. And it cost you how much? $30? Plus maybe another $50 or so for some spikes? Darn sight better than a new arm, eh? Now how about looking at a little headshell weight to really get that Denon singing? Maybe the White album will be more listenable then? :)

Just to satisfy my curiosity, you've left the bottom plate off, then added the bitumen to the inside surfaces of the plinth? Is that right?

[Stratmangler]

Have you done the sub-chassis too?
It's the T shaped metal thing underneath the top plate.

[magiccarpetride]

Hey Alex -- this is great news. So happy these little tweaks have worked out so well. And it cost you how much? $30? Plus maybe another $50 or so for some spikes? Darn sight better than a new arm, eh? Now how about looking at a little headshell weight to really get that Denon singing? Maybe the White album will be more listenable then? :)

Just to satisfy my curiosity, you've left the bottom plate off, then added the bitumen to the inside surfaces of the plinth? Is that right?

Hi Svend, yes, removed the bottom plate, covered all the wooden surfaces inside the plinth with dynamat, plus added a bit of leftover dynamat to some metal surfaces. The resulting sound is shockingly better. I can now hear every tiny Joni Mitchell's breath, plus the multi-layered voices are not a blur anymore. I can also hear the way her singing notes slowly decay, as she tends to draw them out much longer than I was previously aware of.

Definitely I'd say this mod is mandatory for all Systemdek owners. It transforms this deck from a mid brow source to a veritable high brow source.

Question: where can I get headshell weights for the Denon DL-103?

Thanks!

[magiccarpetride]

Have you done the sub-chassis too?
It's the T shaped metal thing underneath the top plate.

No. Wasn't sure if I should (was impatient and couldn't wait for your photos).

So I should do that as well?

[Stratmangler]

No. Wasn't sure if I should (was impatient and couldn't wait for your photos).

So I should do that as well?

I did, along with the bottom of the bearing housing.

[magiccarpetride]

I did, along with the bottom of the bearing housing.

Thanks. Not sure what exactly is the bottom of the bearing housing (I'm not a mechanical engineer), probably best to wait to see your photos, and then it will be monkey see, monkey do ;)

[Svend N]

Are there any suspension springs that will need adjusting if you add weight to the subchassis?

Alex - thanks for clarifying. I will attend to similar tweaks to my Heybrook when I have some free time (swamped with work at present). Not sure where you can get a headshell shim/weight for a Rega arm. Your local audio shop might be able to set that up for you. I'm sure a web search will turn up something. First step would be to figure out how much weight to actually add, so here is a good place to start: https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php
It's the cartridge resonance evaluator -- plug in your tonearm effective mass (11.5g for the RB300), then cross-reference cart. compliance value and cart. mass (with fasteners) for the Denon, and see where you land. If in the yellow or orange zones, then a tweak would be in order. Calculate from there how much extra mass will bump you into the green. Easy-peasy. Any questions, let me know...

Best,
Svend

[alphaGT]

Back on the preamp, I just did a search in eBay from under a grand, and there are just so many great phono preamps to choose from. I saw the Bellari and the Pro-Ject tube box for under 400. And a Graham Slee Special Edition for 660. Even my Phonomena two box units around $750. And of course the Jolida in around those prices too. Once you’ve got your ‘table all tweaked out, you may wish to work your way back to the preamp. Make your upgrades to the arm, re wire, or adding the weight shim to the head? As noted previously, if you get a pre that does MM/MC, you can experiment with and without the SUT.

Your path to greater vinyl playback has many possibilities. Now you’ve got me wanting to experiment with better footing for my ‘table! My Scout has spike feet from the factory, I’ve given thought to making my own Cloud 9 platform for it. They must be good, I have never seen one used.

Russell

[Svend N]

+1 Good advice Russell. Alex is on the right path -- getting the fundamentals sorted with the deck itself, and then working out from there. Vinyl is a tweaker's delight :D, esp. these suspended belt drive decks. Gotta love 'em!

[walpurgis]

I owned the Bellari and the TubeBox SE at the same time. The TubeBox sounded dull next to the Bellari.

[magiccarpetride]

I owned the Bellari and the TubeBox SE at the same time. The TubeBox sounded dull next to the Bellari.

My only concern with Bellari is that its MM output is lower than other phono preamps.

[magiccarpetride]

+1 Good advice Russell. Alex is on the right path -- getting the fundamentals sorted with the deck itself, and then working out from there. Vinyl is a tweaker's delight :D, esp. these suspended belt drive decks. Gotta love 'em!

Next thing is I'm thinking ordering these: https://www.amazon.ca/Sorbothane-Hemisphere-Non-Skid-Adhesive-Durometer/dp/B003IMJ3S2

Phono preamps make my head hurt. What do you guys think about Nobsound Little Bear T11 6N2/12AX7 (https://www.amazon.ca/Nobsound-Little-Turntable-Preamplifier-Pre-Amplifier/dp/B06XCM9NKV/ref=sr_1_76?ie=UTF8&qid=1519175379&sr=8-76&keywords=phono+preamp)?

[Svend N]

Not sure that Sorbothane feet are a good idea under a suspended deck. We've talked about that earlier in this thread. You've gone to the trouble of reducing vibration in the deck itself, but now you might put some jiggle back in by having it fight against the suspension. But hey, try a set and then try some cones and see which you like better. Whichever you don't end up using can go under another component - a CD player will benefit from either of these.

[walpurgis]

But hey, try a set and then try some cones and see which you like better

Yes. Sensible approach.

[Stratmangler]

you might put some jiggle back in by having it fight against the suspension

It's sorbethane, not jelly (jello to our cousins across the pond).
You're not going to get the sub-chassis rolling like a ship on the ocean.

The other things to bear in mind is vibration is generated by the TT, and softening its arrival in the supporting structure is not necessarily a bad thing.
The things is, personal taste comes into play with stuff like this, and you need to explore the various avenues for yourself and choose the options that work best for you.

Don't overthink things, just try the options and decide which ones you like best.

[magiccarpetride]

It's sorbethane, not jelly (jello to our cousins across the pond).
You're not going to get the sub-chassis rolling like a ship on the ocean.

The other things to bear in mind is vibration is generated by the TT, and softening its arrival in the supporting structure is not necessarily a bad thing.
The things is, personal taste comes into play with stuff like this, and you need to explore the various avenues for yourself and choose the options that work best for you.

Don't overthink things, just try the options and decide which ones you like best.

Quick update: I placed Systemdek on metal spikes and to be honest couldn't hear any notable difference in sound. Maybe, just maybe a bit more refined details, but I may be easily just imagining this.

Nothing like yesterday's full blown transformation after dampening with dynamate. But at least I didn't notice that the sound worsened, not even a little bit.

Time to try the sorbothane feet?

[Stratmangler]

Time to try the sorbothane feet?

Sounds like it.
Give it a go - you might prefer the spikes.

[Svend N]

Sure, go for it Alex. Given that you didn't hear much, if any, difference with the spikes indicates that the platform the deck is sitting on seems to be doing a good job of isolating things. Nice to know. Post back here on what effect the sorbothane has. I'm very curious about that...

BTW, if you want to try a headshell weight just as a quick trial to see if it works, you could temporarily stick a metal washer with double-sided tape onto the top of the headshell. You'll need a small electronic scale to weigh the washer -- that would be rather important to know how much you're adding. And remember to adjust your VTF :).

[magiccarpetride]

Sure, go for it Alex. Given that you didn't hear much, if any, difference with the spikes indicates that the platform the deck is sitting on seems to be doing a good job of isolating things. Nice to know. Post back here on what effect the sorbothane has. I'm very curious about that...

BTW, if you want to try a headshell weight just as a quick trial to see if it works, you could temporarily stick a metal washer with double-sided tape onto the top of the headshell. You'll need a small electronic scale to weigh the washer -- that would be rather important to know how much you're adding. And remember to adjust your VTF :).

Thanks for the tips, Svend. You're an endless source of ideas :)

So after a couple of days with newest upgrades, I'm starting to detect certain hardness in the sound of sub-standard LPs. The good ones sound sweet and very detailed, but those lesser pressings are now giving me this hard edged sound that wasn't there previously, when Systemdek was sloppier.

Wonder if that situation is irreparable, or whether if I now add valves to the phono or preamp stage things will mellow out a bit?

[Svend N]

Hey Alex - happy to help! I've received much patient and generous help from many of the crew here, so I'm glad to be paying it forward :)

As for the hard and strident sound, there could be a number of things at work there. Platter resonance perhaps? Or that darn compliance mismatch between your cartridge and the light Rega arm :). Seriously, per my previous advice, I'd try sticking a 5g washer (or whatever the Vinylengine tool tells you that you need) onto the top of the headshell and see what happens. This tonearm mass - cartridge compliance synergy is a real thing -- check out this recent thread where Dave had the opposite problem to what you may be experiencing...a too-heavy headshell mated to a high-compliance cartridge: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?56571-Please-help!-Ortofon-2M-Bronze-on-a-PL-71
He swapped out the headshell for one about 4g lighter, and Bingo! problem solved. Totally transformed the sound.

There may be other causes, and some of the guys here may have some better insight and suggestions.

In any case, I suppose it's a mixed blessing what you're reporting -- the deck is so much more accurate and revealing now that it shows up sub-standard LPs.

Best of luck!

Svend

[magiccarpetride]

Hey Alex - happy to help! I've received much patient and generous help from many of the crew here, so I'm glad to be paying it forward :)

As for the hard and strident sound, there could be a number of things at work there. Platter resonance perhaps? Or that darn compliance mismatch between your cartridge and the light Rega arm :). Seriously, per my previous advice, I'd try sticking a 5g washer (or whatever the Vinylengine tool tells you that you need) onto the top of the headshell and see what happens. This tonearm mass - cartridge compliance synergy is a real thing -- check out this recent thread where Dave had the opposite problem to what you may be experiencing...a too-heavy headshell mated to a high-compliance cartridge: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?56571-Please-help!-Ortofon-2M-Bronze-on-a-PL-71
He swapped out the headshell for one about 4g lighter, and Bingo! problem solved. Totally transformed the sound.

There may be other causes, and some of the guys here may have some better insight and suggestions.

In any case, I suppose it's a mixed blessing what you're reporting -- the deck is so much more accurate and revealing now that it shows up sub-standard LPs.

Best of luck!

Svend

Hey Svend, thanks again for your encouraging words. Too bad you don't reside in Vancouver, I think we would be great buddies :)

Yeah, the blessing and the curse of upgrading your equipment is that good things get better, but not so good things get worse :(

That hardening in the upper register is nowhere to be heard on well recorded, well mastered LPs that have been carefully pressed. But if the source material was made carelessly, all of a sudden it is a hard listen.

On the flip side, what used to be a hard, cringe-inducing listen (like Howlin' Wolf London Session) is now a sweet ride :) What previously was dangerously edging toward a screech fest is now turning into a crystal clear, sonorous audio heaven.

I'll look into adding the 5g washer, see what, if anything, changes. Interestingly, some things I change on my system introduce dramatic differences, some don't make one iota of a difference. Hard to predict what may happen when I change something.

Thanks again!

[Svend N]

Hey Alex, well I'm a long way from Van, but drop in occasionally for work and to visit my brother in Port Moody. Father-in-law lives over on the Island too, in Sooke.

It'll be interesting to hear back if the headshell weight makes any difference. BTW, it just so happens that a Canadian penny weighs 4.5 grams - perfect. I'm sure you have a sock full of those lying around somewhere...:)

If you Google "Denon DL-103 on Rega arm", I think you'll find quite a few users have gone to a small headshell weight to bump the arm mass up a titch. Seems to be routine practice.

Just out of curiousity, what VTF are you using? That cart needs quite a bit, I think(?)...2.5g or so...

[magiccarpetride]

Hey Alex, well I'm a long way from Van, but drop in occasionally for work and to visit my brother in Port Moody. Father-in-law lives over on the Island too, in Sooke.

It'll be interesting to hear back if the headshell weight makes any difference. BTW, it just so happens that a Canadian penny weighs 4.5 grams - perfect. I'm sure you have a sock full of those lying around somewhere...:)

If you Google "Denon DL-103 on Rega arm", I think you'll find quite a few users have gone to a small headshell weight to bump the arm mass up a titch. Seems to be routine practice.

Just out of curiousity, what VTF are you using? That cart needs quite a bit, I think(?)...2.5g or so...

I've settled on 2.7g. Sounds best to my ears.

Shockingly, one of the local turntable 'gurus' told me that he never liked Denon DL-103. He suggested Rega Ania instead. He seems not to like DL-103's beefy sound, which I adore.

[Svend N]

Yeah, there's something about a really full, punchy sound that is so compelling. I have a Goldring MM cartridge that has that kind of sound, mounted on an RB300 actually. Terrific stuff! To each their own... :)

[magiccarpetride]

Yeah, there's something about a really full, punchy sound that is so compelling. I have a Goldring MM cartridge that has that kind of sound, mounted on an RB300 actually. Terrific stuff! To each their own... :)

Goldring is a legendary cartridge. I was considering getting it, but I still remain prisoner of that unique DL-103 sound. I call it 'molten lava', because it is the most fiery sound I've ever heard emanating from anyone's speakers.

[Svend N]

Well, you're in good company here -- there seem to be a lot of 103 fans here. One of these days I may have to try one and see what all the fuss is about :)

[argyle]

I used the 103 on an RB300, and used a weighted shim to give me a little more weight and also the extra VTA. It sounded great, which is the opposite to what I usually hear of RB arms vs DL-103 carts.

[magiccarpetride]

Well, you're in good company here -- there seem to be a lot of 103 fans here. One of these days I may have to try one and see what all the fuss is about :)

You may be better off not trying it. You could end up in the same situation I'm in -- become a prisoner of one flavour. I'm so in love with that special DL-103 flavour that any other cartridge I try I go 'hmmm, not even close!'

But I'd love to play with other cartridges, however the grip of DL-103 is too strong...

[Svend N]

Alex, you do know there is an easy solution to your dilemma, don't you? Build a second system with another turntable :D. One with a tonearm having a removable headshell. That way you play with different cartridges to your heart's content.

Argyle, do you happen to recall how much your headshell shim weighed? Would be good for Alex to know...

Cheers,
Svend

[Svend N]

Alex, have you tried the penny test yet? Just curious to know if there's any improvement. And I see that in the other 103 thread it's been suggested that you upgrade the tonearm...that seems a bit premature, don't you think? From what Argyle says, you should get the RB300 to work quite well with your cartridge just by adding a bit of weight. A $10 tweak, which would leave your entire budget for a better phono amp, or a MusicKraft DL-103 mod. Food for thought....

Svend

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, have you tried the penny test yet? Just curious to know if there's any improvement. And I see that in the other 103 thread it's been suggested that you upgrade the tonearm...that seems a bit premature, don't you think? From what Argyle says, you should get the RB300 to work quite well with your cartridge just by adding a bit of weight. A $10 tweak, which would leave your entire budget for a better phono amp, or a MusicKraft DL-103 mod. Food for thought....

Svend

Yes Svend, tried the penny test. Trouble is, when I tried to apply the penny test, I had to reset the VTF as well as reset the anti-skating. After doing that, I placed the penny and readjusted the VTF using the electronic scale, but also readjusted anti-skate.

The final result -- the sound got better, which is good news. The bad news? Not sure if the the sound got better due to the added weight, or due to a different anti-skate value?

Goes to show that, when doing tweaks, it is of vital importance to only change one thing at a time before evaluating.

[Svend N]

Well, good news that there was an improvement. As for the anti-skate, I think it depends on how it was set as to whether the difference in sound can be put down to that alone. Doubtful, I expect. To expand on that - there are several ways to set the AS, depending on who you read, so if you set it to the same criteria pre- headshell weight and post-, then it should be a moot issue. E.g. - I set it using an LP with a large lead-out groove area, and try to set the stylus down at the beginning of that and watch how it tracks (it should move very slowly inward if set correctly, before it snaps into the groove)....so theoretically the R-L forces should be more or less equal no matter how heavy the arm and cartridge are, thereby negating this as a significant variable. Not sure if I'm explaining this well or just muddling it all up :scratch: But in short, I suspect the improvement was far more a result of the extra headshell weight than any difference in the AS value. Remember, there are some people who recommend using no AS at all for cartridges that have a high VTF value, claiming it makes no difference to sound quality (not sure if they're right, as I've never owned a cartridge that needed that high a VTF). Perhaps others here will have more experience with this and will chime in.

Bottom line, though, is that things keep getting better, which is great. Keep at it :)

Cheers,
Svend

[magiccarpetride]

Well, good news that there was an improvement. As for the anti-skate, I think it depends on how it was set as to whether the difference in sound can be put down to that alone. Doubtful, I expect. To expand on that - there are several ways to set the AS, depending on who you read, so if you set it to the same criteria pre- headshell weight and post-, then it should be a moot issue. E.g. - I set it using an LP with a large lead-out groove area, and try to set the stylus down at the beginning of that and watch how it tracks (it should move very slowly inward if set correctly, before it snaps into the groove)....so theoretically the R-L forces should be more or less equal no matter how heavy the arm and cartridge are, thereby negating this as a significant variable. Not sure if I'm explaining this well or just muddling it all up :scratch: But in short, I suspect the improvement was far more a result of the extra headshell weight than any difference in the AS value. Remember, there are some people who recommend using no AS at all for cartridges that have a high VTF value, claiming it makes no difference to sound quality (not sure if they're right, as I've never owned a cartridge that needed that high a VTF). Perhaps others here will have more experience with this and will chime in.

Bottom line, though, is that things keep getting better, which is great. Keep at it :)

Cheers,
Svend

Aah, great, thanks for clarifying, Svend :)

One of the improvements I've noticed with this change is that on certain 'problematic' passages I used to get some audible distortion in my left speaker. Now that problem spot seems to be minimized. I've initially ascribed the remedy to a different anti-skate value, but like you said, it could all be down to increased weight.

Another question: how do I move the counterweight on my Rega RB300 arm? It seems bolted in its position, no way to move it either backward or forward.

[amati74(Artur)]

You know... of all the upgrades and crazy tweaks I've heard of throughout the years, this one sounded the most outlandish. Remove the bottom plate? Like, really? Why?

So this evening, for a lark, I did just that. Removed the bottom plate and sat down to give it a listen, with a smirk. Played Van Morrison "Moondance".

Holy molly! My jaw dropped to the floor! What the...

I couldn't tear myself away from Systemdek. One LP after another, rediscovering the music, basking in the sonic marvels. How's this possible? A stupid lowly bottom plate robs this turntable of such precision. I'm stumped.Could you give any pictures please (bottom plate)

[Svend N]

Another question: how do I move the counterweight on my Rega RB300 arm? It seems bolted in its position, no way to move it either backward or forward.

I recall you mentioned you had upgraded the CW for this arm -- which one did you put on there? There are a number of aftermarket weights for this arm, all of which probably have their own way of fastening. Is there a small grub screw somewhere that you can loosen? Assuming you put the CW on there, you should be able to now move it(?). If you're stumped, post a pic of it and someone here will surely recognize it and be able to help....

[magiccarpetride]

I recall you mentioned you had upgraded the CW for this arm -- which one did you put on there? There are a number of aftermarket weights for this arm, all of which probably have their own way of fastening. Is there a small grub screw somewhere that you can loosen? Assuming you put the CW on there, you should be able to now move it(?). If you're stumped, post a pic of it and someone here will surely recognize it and be able to help....

Yeah, the dealer upgraded the CW, so I've no idea what he did there. I'll post the pic soon. Thanks!

[magiccarpetride]

I recall you mentioned you had upgraded the CW for this arm -- which one did you put on there? There are a number of aftermarket weights for this arm, all of which probably have their own way of fastening. Is there a small grub screw somewhere that you can loosen? Assuming you put the CW on there, you should be able to now move it(?). If you're stumped, post a pic of it and someone here will surely recognize it and be able to help....

Here is the photo of the counterweight on Rega RB300:

https://imgur.com/a/w60aP

and here is my 'Frankenstein' Systemdek:

https://imgur.com/a/aq9Rb

[magiccarpetride]

Could you give any pictures please (bottom plate)

Here is the bottom plate I've removed from the turntable:

https://imgur.com/a/LTP7B

It's made of metal, and is quite heavy. After removing it the sound improved significantly. There is no other reason for this bottom plate except as protection from the exposed electrical wiring inside the tt body. Otherwise, one of the best free tweaks is just to remove it.

[amati74(Artur)]

Here is the bottom plate I've removed from the turntable:

https://imgur.com/a/LTP7B

It's made of metal, and is quite heavy. After removing it the sound improved significantly. There is no other reason for this bottom plate except as protection from the exposed electrical wiring inside the tt body. Otherwise, one of the best free tweaks is just to remove it.[emoji3]that's good

[amati74(Artur)]

I'm just starting to improve my turntable, so I'm waiting for things I ordered from eBay. I want to install a new tonearm, spikes feet, new tonearm wires and signal cable. I also want to put dynamat into the chassis and plinth, nad may be on the base.

[magiccarpetride]

I'm just starting to improve my turntable, so I'm waiting for things I ordered from eBay. I want to install a new tonearm, spikes feet, new tonearm wires and signal cable. I also want to put dynamat into the chassis and plinth, nad may be on the base.

Dynamat is a miracle worker. It really transformed my lowly turntable into a serious machine.

[amati74(Artur)]

I forgot that I also ordered new springs from vinyl nirvana

[Svend N]

Alex, isn't that hole in the counterweight to allow access an allen screw?

https://i.imgur.com/FHbPJ0l.jpg

The inside of the hole is dark in the pic, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a grub screw in there.



And that's a nice looking deck, mister!

https://i.imgur.com/vqve6Bi.jpg

Complete with an authentic and now extinct Canadian penny on the headshell :D. It's making that tonearm more valuable by the day -- it must be worth at least a 1/2 cent more than last year.

Seriously, the TT looks great. Nice one!

I will check out Dynamat and have a go with it for my Heybrook. Where did you buy it?

Svend

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, isn't that hole in the counterweight to allow access an allen screw?

https://i.imgur.com/FHbPJ0l.jpg

The inside of the hole is dark in the pic, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a grub screw in there.



And that's a nice looking deck, mister!

https://i.imgur.com/vqve6Bi.jpg

Complete with an authentic and now extinct Canadian penny on the headshell :D. It's making that tonearm more valuable by the day -- it must be worth at least a 1/2 cent more than last year.

Seriously, the TT looks great. Nice one!

I will check out Dynamat and have a go with it for my Heybrook. Where did you buy it?

Svend

Thanks Svend. I looked into that hole but could not discern any screw in there. I'll use a flashlight and see if I can unscrew it.

I appreciate you adding your 2 cents and assessing my tonearm as appreciating by at least half a cent ;)

And I agree with you, I also like the non-futuristic, old school vintage look of that TT. But those looks pale in comparison to how it sounds (or how it CAN sound once all the tweaks are done ;)

After a long and hard search, I found Dynamat at the local Ralph's Radio shop. It was quite pricey ($18.00 for a square), so being a tightass I bought only two squares. Then I realized it's not enough, so I went back but of course they ran out of Dynamat, and couldn't tell me if they'll restock it or not.

So then I started searching all over the place and finally found Hushmat at the auto parts store Lordco. That mat is inferior to Dynamat, but is considerably cheaper. But it's also awful to work with (in comparison, Dynamat was a breeze to apply).

[Svend N]

Thanks for the tip on the Dynamat. I'll see if I can find it here. I haven't done much to the Heybrook lately except just listen to great music on it (needed a break after months of fiddling with it), but now I'm ready to start on the next round of tweaks. Dealing with the bottom plate will be priority one.

[amati74(Artur)]

What kind of dynamat should I use, dynamat super lite or dynamat extreme.
Dynamat super lite is 30% liter and 30% thinner than extreme. The price is the same about £18 per 1 piece 18"x32"

[amati74(Artur)]

I also found something like that, but I do not know if it will be good enough https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/210fc786ee07431b4ac70ea1e594f367.jpg

[magiccarpetride]

I also found something like that, but I do not know if it will be good enough https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/210fc786ee07431b4ac70ea1e594f367.jpg

In my experience, anything is better than nothing. You really wanna try dampening the plinth and the chassis on your TT. Just do it with whatever is at hand, then sit down and listen. If, after doing that, you don't find your jaw on the floor, simply remove the damping sheets and you'll be back to 'normal' ;)

[amati74(Artur)]

In my experience, anything is better than nothing. You really wanna try dampening the plinth and the chassis on your TT. Just do it with whatever is at hand, then sit down and listen. If, after doing that, you don't find your jaw on the floor, simply remove the damping sheets and you'll be back to 'normal' ;)Ok [emoji3]

[Open Door]

This is in reference the Jolida JD9 comment. While I enjoy reading comments on all forms of kit including Jolida, I feel an adjustment needs to be noted here - for reader benefit. Some may know my history of Joilda - I have modified many, sold them standard in the past, have copies of the circuits and even asked the Jolida owner direct due to such posts to check I'm not wrong in my view and understanding.

The Jolida JD9 output stage is active. The output stage is the exact same stage as found in the Jolida JD5T preamplifier which has no opamps / solid state gain stages. It only produces 10dB of gain - it is not a buffer stage. Dropping in 5751 or 5755 valves (with adaptors) will drop the gain a little.


First off the Bellari has a fairly low level of gain so you might struggle for level. I've also read that the standard power supply is somewhat lacking.

Secondly the Jolida is not a tube phono stage, it is an IC based phono with a tube buffer on the end of it. However I have heard it and think it gives a very good sound and if anything has too much gain.
You can try it with direct MC input as well, not using the SUT, so have a level of choice and sound presentation to experiment with.

I haven't heard a Clearaudio, if the salesman is so keen to push it can he offer a home trial? That is always best.
Good luck.

[Bigman80]

This is in reference the Jolida JD9 comment. While I enjoy reading comments on all forms of kit including Jolida, I feel an adjustment needs to be noted here. Some may know my history of Joilda - I have modified many, sold them standard in the past, have copies of the circuits and even ask the Jolida owner direct due to such posts to check I'm not wrong in my view and understanding.

The Jolida JD9 output stage is active. The output stage is the exact same stage as found in the Jolida JD5T preamplifier which has no opamps / solid state gain stages. It only produces 10dB of gain - it is not a buffer stage. Dropping in 5751 or 5755 valves (with adaptors) will drop the gain a little.Regardless of anything. It's a damn fine phonostage. Had one for a while and whilst it does have high gain, it was no issue here. A really good bit of kit.