Kontrapunkt B

[Jimbo]

Just had this in and reviewing at the moment, first impressions are very good indeed.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4757/38505463040_22674dbf88_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21EAyDN)image (https://flic.kr/p/21EAyDN) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/[/url], on Flickr

[brian2957]

Looks fantastic James . I hope you're enjoying it :)

[ianlenco]

Had one of those back in the noughties. Very nice cartridge indeed.
Oddly enough I had a VPI Scout at the time using their unipivot tonearm. :)

[Bigman80]

Had one of those back in the noughties. Very nice cartridge indeed.
Oddly enough I had a VPI Scout at the time using their unipivot tonearm. :)Yes yes yes. Love this cartridge. A quality performer. [emoji4]

[Jimbo]

Certainly quality Oli, it was after hearing yours I thought I needed to try one in my system. :)

Yes Brian, I am enjoying it very much. Think what you heard but even more transparent, natural and open. Nearly bought Helen and myself to tears this morning on one track.

I need a bigger session before I can put my thoughts down but I feel it is probably the best cartridge I have heard in my system. I will write up a full review later.

[Bigman80]

Certainly quality Oli, it was after hearing yours I thought I needed to try one in my system. :)

Yes Brian, I am enjoying it very much. Think what you heard but even more transparent, natural and open. Nearly bought Helen and myself to tears this morning on one track.

I need a bigger session before I can put my thoughts down but I feel it is probably the best cartridge I have heard in my system. I will write up a full review later.TBH Jimbo, I'd be surprised if it wasn't!!!

It's a classy performance with no emphasis on any part of the audio band. I'm surprised daily by how good it is.

[brian2957]

Well I thought that your system sounded sublime when I last visited with the 2M Black in situ . Lord knows how it sounds now James .

[Bigman80]

Well I thought that your system sounded sublime when I last visited with the 2M Black in situ . Lord knows how it sounds now James .You get all the detail from the 2M black but it's a much more balanced presentation. Very even handed. It's highly rated here.

[RobbieGong]

Great stuf James, you know I'm a big fan of Ortofon cartridges.

The Kontrapunkt B has always had a great reputation.

I heard one in my sytem a while back when Angus first brough my Sansui AU-919 down - I remember it sounded really good and very refined :)

[brian2957]

You get all the detail from the 2M black but it's a much more balanced presentation. Very even handed. It's highly rated here.

Love to hear that Oliver :)

[Bigman80]

Love to hear that Oliver :)If you're down this way give me a shout. You can hear mine [emoji6]

[brian2957]

Thanks for that mate :)

[Bigman80]

No worries. I'll make some time for you.

[Ammonite Audio]

I’ve had a Kontrapunkt B to hand for years and the latest example (NOS bought from Thakker) is currently sitting at the end of a Jelco TK-850S on a Technics SL-1200GR and sounding great. The KB is quite a classy thing and very easy to set up courtesy of its highly visible cantilever and straight body sides. It’s not as sweet nor as musical as a Miyajima but given what my NOS KB cost that’s entirely forgiveable. None of the reliable cartridge repairers will touch a Kontrapunkt and that’s a shame.

[Haselsh1]

Oh yeah, I remember having one of those Ortofons back around 1999 in an Alphason Sonata with an HR100S MCS tonearm. I remember it sounded really good and masked surface noise very well. At the time I was using a Hart Linsley Hood two box phono stage into a WAD KLP1 preamp and 300B PP power amp and the sound as a whole was one of the best I have ever had.

[Jimbo]

You get all the detail from the 2M black but it's a much more balanced presentation. Very even handed. It's highly rated here.

Spot on;)

[Jimbo]

Great stuf James, you know I'm a big fan of Ortofon cartridges.

The Kontrapunkt B has always had a great reputation.

I heard one in my sytem a while back when Angus first brough my Sansui AU-919 down - I remember it sounded really good and very refined :)

It is indeed a stellar performer and may persuade me to move from the 2M black. It reminds me a little of the Denon DL S1 but slightly more refined. The Kontrapunkt is so smooth and as someone else mentioned it is very quiet in the groove with very little surface noise,click or pops. It is nearly as quiet as my Denon 301 mk2 but much better at everything else.

[Bigman80]

It is indeed a stellar performer and may persuade me to move from the 2M black. It reminds me a little of the Denon DL S1 but slightly more refined. The Kontrapunkt is so smooth and as someone else mentioned it is very quiet in the groove with very little surface noise,click or pops. It is nearly as quiet as my Denon 301 mk2 but much better at everything else.Personally, for the price you're likely to pay, it's a bit of a no brainer!

[Jimbo]

I’ve had a Kontrapunkt B to hand for years and the latest example (NOS bought from Thakker) is currently sitting at the end of a Jelco TK-850S on a Technics SL-1200GR and sounding great. The KB is quite a classy thing and very easy to set up courtesy of its highly visible cantilever and straight body sides. It’s not as sweet nor as musical as a Miyajima but given what my NOS KB cost that’s entirely forgiveable. None of the reliable cartridge repairers will touch a Kontrapunkt and that’s a shame.

Does Ortofon not refurbish old KB cartridges?

[Jimbo]

Getting through a few records today Oliver, it maybe a long night. There have been some sonic spectacular Nirvana moments already. :)

[Bigman80]

Does Ortofon not refurbish old KB cartridges?Yup.
I think so

[Bigman80]

Jimbo,

My experience is very similar to your. At times I've picked up the needle to relisten to a few seconds of a track again. I've recently discovered a new cable which has really revealed all of the Kontrapunt b's quality.

I'm only interested in listening now. That's been the goal for some time and the Kontrapunt is the key to that.

Other carts I'd consider to step up to is a Ortofon Vienna or an ART-A7

Other than that, I'm done.

[Jimbo]

Jimbo,

My experience is very similar to your. At times I've picked up the needle to relisten to a few seconds of a track again. I've recently discovered a new cable which has really revealed all of the Kontrapunt b's quality.

I'm only interested in listening now. That's been the goal for some time and the Kontrapunt is the key to that.

Other carts I'd consider to step up to is a Ortofon Vienna or an ART-A7

Other than that, I'm done.

You need to hear my system now with the KB at the front end. It is quite different. More later.:)

[Bigman80]

You need to hear my system now with the KB at the front end. It is quite different. More later.:)[emoji3]

[smangus]

I had a kb until I snapped the cantilever:doh: I loved it . but managed to get a zyx Yartra as a replacement and that's better for me anyway. turned out to be a happy accident. :rolleyes:

[Ammonite Audio]

Does Ortofon not refurbish old KB cartridges?

Yes, according to their website it seems they do, in that they open the thing up and replace everything inside except the magnet and yoke, so in effect a new cartridge is substituted. At €870 it's a great deal more expensive than a re-tipping job, but perhaps cheaper than a new Cadenza and no worries about poor repairs done elsewhere (notwithstanding the fact that most third party repairers won't touch these cartridges).

[Jimbo]

It's interesting this hifi milarky, there is always something round the corner that teases you and starts an itch and this particular one started at Oliver (Bigmans). He has heard my system and was a gracious and very attentive listener.

Having spent a little time at his home and a brief 30 minutes listening to his system I realised he has a very good ear and acoustic judgement/taste so I respect his choice and observations on equipment and music which leads me to the reason I aquired a Kontrapunkt B. This is the cartridge Oli fronts up his system with and it sounded very good indeed so I had to try one.

My MC journey, like most, has taken many twists and turns and has always left me a little underwhelmed. I have often found when I listen to a cartridge and then go back to my 2M black, the 2M has something special and an ability that gels with my system and simply slaughters most MC cartridges in the sub £500 mark. I always thought I needed to aim higher and have heard some very expensive MC cartridges that have simply left me thinking why bother. One exception the Denon DL S1.

So I was very kindly loaned a Kontrapunkt b and set it up a few days ago. Set up is a doddle with non of the 2M nonsense. I tried a couple of head amps but my K&K Audio SUT proved to be the best solution into my Croft 25R preamp. The K&K is so natural and has a liquid organic transparency that made the head amps sound mechanical?
https://flic.kr/p/24srN88

The Kontrapunkt was bolted onto the end of my JMW 9T VPI tone arm
[url=https://flic.kr/p/23nsYuQ][img]https://farm5.staticflic

A quick adjustment of the VTA and I was off!

I started with King Creosote and Jon Hopkins Diamond Mine which is beautifully recorded and has some field recordings as part of the mix. I know this album very well and immediately when King Creosote came in and started strumming on the track 'First Watch' I was astounded by the huge increase in acoustic information coming from his guitar. Not only did it seem like I was hearing twice as much detail, the tone and texture was superb. The Kontrapunkt b made just this instrument sound real!! My previous cartridges have never achieved this level of realism

I don't want to bore you with a massive selection of albums and tracks that I used to evaluate this cartridge but to précis my listening experience I conclude with the following observations.

The Kontrapunkt b sounds extremely transparent to the point where my system simply disappeared. Even my speakers which made their presence known melted away. Its ability to shine a light into the deepest recesses of the recording was uncanny. Detail was fabulous but never in a HiFi way. The top end is perfection. Vocals are truly three dimensional and totally believable. One of the biggest surprises for me was how the KB played instruments. Tone and texture is there in abundance, full and layered. Trombones and trumpets on jazz material were so rounded and full. Dynamics are handled effortlessly and the whole presentation is very smooth with a very quiet black background and amazing low levels of vinyl groove noise or clicks and pops.

To sum up all I can say is the Kontrapunkt b is a truly superb MC which has taught me a few lessons. This has been the biggest sonic jump in my system for 3 years and is significantly a huge leap forward in sound quality. I have been a huge fan of the 2M black as many of you know but the Kontrapunkt b is a giant leap forward, 50% better in my book. I was expecting only a small improvement but this cartridge has exceeded all expectations and is definitely the MC I have been looking for.

[Firebottle]

:yay: Good one James, as you know I have heard the 'B' at Oliver's too so am not surprised you like it so much.

:)

[Jimbo]

:yay: Good one James, as you know I have heard the 'B' at Oliver's too so am not surprised you like it so much.

:)

Cheers Alan, It really is a fabulous cartridge. When I was listening I obviously compared it against my 2M as this is my daily runner. There is only one thing the 2M does better than the KB and that is its re creation of a 'live' aspect to the sound. I now think this is the 2M artificially enhancing the recording. The KB is more detailed but the 2M throws up so much more top end including stuff you don't want!

I see Ortofon are selling refurbished Kontrapunkt b cartridges so this is probably the only sure way of getting a minter!:)

[Bigman80]

It's interesting this hifi milarky, there is always something round the corner that teases you and starts an itch and this particular one started at Oliver (Bigmans). He has heard my system and was a gracious and very attentive listener.

Having spent a little time at his home and a brief 30 minutes listening to his system I realised he has a very good ear and acoustic judgement/taste so I respect his choice and observations on equipment and music which leads me to the reason I aquired a Kontrapunkt B. This is the cartridge Oli fronts up his system with and it sounded very good indeed so I had to try one.

My MC journey, like most, has taken many twists and turns and has always left me a little underwhelmed. I have often found when I listen to a cartridge and then go back to my 2M black, the 2M has something special and an ability that gels with my system and simply slaughters most MC cartridges in the sub £500 mark. I always thought I needed to aim higher and have heard some very expensive MC cartridges that have simply left me thinking why bother. One exception the Denon DL S1.

So I was very kindly loaned a Kontrapunkt b and set it up a few days ago. Set up is a doddle with non of the 2M nonsense. I tried a couple of head amps but my K&K Audio SUT proved to be the best solution into my Croft 25R preamp. The K&K is so natural and has a liquid organic transparency that made the head amps sound mechanical.
[url=https://flic.kr/p/23nsYuQ][img]https://farm5.staticflic

The Kontrapunkt was bolted onto the end of my JMW 9T VPI tone arm
[url=https://flic.kr/p/23nsYuQ][img]https://farm5.staticflic

A quick adjustment of the VTA and I was off!

I started with King Creosote and Jon Hopkins Diamond Mine which is beautifully recorded and has some field recordings as part of the mix. I know this album very well and immediately when King Creosote came in and started strumming on the track 'First Watch' I was astounded by the huge increase in acoustic information coming from his guitar. Not only did it seem like I was hearing twice as much detail, the tone and texture was superb. The Kontrapunkt b made just this instrument sound real!! My previous cartridges have never achieved this level of realism

I don't want to bore you with a massive selection of albums and tracks that I used to evaluate this cartridge but to précis my listening experience I conclude with the following observations.

The Kontrapunkt b sounds extremely transparent to the point where my system simply disappeared. Even my speakers which made their presence known melted away. Its ability to shine a light into the deepest recesses of the recording was uncanny. Detail was fabulous but never in a HiFi way. The top end is perfection. Vocals are truly three dimensional and totally believable. One of the biggest surprises for me was how the KB played instruments. Tone and texture is there in abundance, full and layered. Trombones and trumpets on jazz material were so rounded and full. Dynamics are handled effortlessly and the whole presentation is very smooth with a very quiet black background and amazing low levels of vinyl groove noise or clicks and pops.

To sum up all I can say is the Kontrapunkt b is a truly superb MC which has taught me a few lessons. This has been the biggest sonic jump in my system for 3 years and is significantly a huge leap forward in sound quality. I have been a huge fan of the 2M black as many of you know but the Kontrapunkt b is a giant leap forward, 50% better in my book. I was expecting only a small improvement but this cartridge has exceeded all expectations and is definitely the MC I have been looking for.Kind words Jim, thank you [emoji4]


It really is a fabulous cartridge. One of the days, if I can arrange it, I'll get you a listen to a Ortofon Vienna and an AT ART-7.

BOTH are wonderful and in the same league as the Kb just differences in tonal meat so to speak.

[Jimbo]

It was the tonal quality that struck me the most. I was listening to the Rodrigo y Gabriella first album and the sound of Gabriella knocking on the wood of the guitar was revelatory. I have heard this many times with many cartridges but the KB was the first cartridge that convinced me I was listening to actual wood being knocked. Every other cartridge has sounded like a recording where as the KB tonal quality and transparency made the sound seem so real.

[Bigman80]

It was the tonal quality that struck me the most. I was listening to the Rodrigo y Gabriella first album and the sound of Gabriella knocking on the wood of the guitar was revelatory. I have heard this many times with many cartridges but the KB was the first cartridge that convinced me I was listening to actual wood being knocked. Every other cartridge has sounded like a recording where as the KB tonal quality and transparency made the sound seem so real.Haha, yes, I know exactly what you mean.

There's an honesty about it. A real sense of a natural happening rather than recreation it's a reproduction tool and it's excellent bat its job. Does it have faults? Of course but they are far outweighed by the positives.

[Jimbo]

One thing I would say Oli is the Kontrapunkt b sounds fabulous with the K&K SUT so I expect it should be great with the Hashimoto.:)

[RobbieGong]

Haha, yes, I know exactly what you mean.

There's an honesty about it. A real sense of a natural happening rather than recreation it's a reproduction tool and it's excellent at its job. Does it have faults? Of course but they are far outweighed by the positives.

Thats exactly it for me with the Ortofons i've had hence I've stuck with them, they are my idea of Hi-fi delity, not imposing too much of something on the music, ie: romance, sweetness, drama etc. They let the music / recording do the talking which is what I want.
There have been carts I've read about that sound so exciting so to speak, hyper, lively which some people like but I know I would eventually tire of - everyone has their 'thing' :)

[Jimbo]

I expect that Cadenza Black you have Rob would be an interesting comparison with the Kontrapunkt B?:)

[RobbieGong]

I expect that Cadenza Black you have Rob would be an interesting comparison with the Kontrapunkt B?:)

:) Like the 2MB in particular, once you've nailed set-up and then found that spot, it is just fabulous and all you ever want to do is fire up ya system and play music

[Bigman80]

Thats exactly it for me with the Ortofons i've had hence I've stuck with them, they are my idea of Hi-fi delity, not imposing too much of something on the music, ie: romance, sweetness, drama etc. They let the music / recording do the talking which is what I want.
There have been carts I've read about that sound so exciting so to speak, hyper, lively which some people like but I know I would eventually tire of - everyone has their 'thing' :)Yes Rob, you're quite right there. I loved the flavour of the ZYX R50 Bloom I had But there was a definite "warmth" and when under scrutiny, lacked detail and resolution. Truth is, the Kb just revealed more. There are times, rare times!, I think "a bit more body would be nice here" but then I listen to something else and it's perfect. The more I hear of other carts, the more I now know there's no "one size fits all". An armoury of cartridges would be the best solution but who's got the will power to keep setting up a new cart every time you play a particular record?

The Kb is as close to a "one size fits all" cart as I've found. The ZYX r100 may well be in that box too but I haven't had one at home to confirm.

The Ortofon Vienna is better still (slightly). But rare, oh so rare!!!!

[RobbieGong]

Yes Rob, you're quite right there. I loved the flavour of the ZYX R50 Bloom I had But there was a definite "warmth" and when under scrutiny, lacked detail and resolution. Truth is, the Kb just revealed more. There are times, rare times!, I think "a bit more body would be nice here" but then I listen to something else and it's perfect. The more I hear of other carts, the more I now know there's no "one size fits all". An armoury of cartridges would be the best solution but who's got the will power to keep setting up a new cart every time you play a particular record?

The Kb is as close to a "one size fits all" cart as I've found. The ZYX r100 may well be in that box too but I haven't had one at home to confirm.

The Ortofon Vienna is better still (slightly). But rare, oh so rare!!!!

For me Ortofon's mission statement is clearly one they live and build there carts by being 'Accuracy of Sound'.

As I say, I find their carts tend to be 'even' and let the music talk more than anything else.

I was reading this old Review on the PW Winfeld, some of which I've copied below. I could identify that Ortofon dna that as I say does not get in the way of the music so when the music comes and you've nailed set up you are enthralled by how much of the recording you start to hear and I dont just mean detail, it's the textural info about the detail and all indvidual parts which just becomes even more insightful the further up you go in my experience...

Some high-end cartridges are more lyrical here, blending more orchestral colour and a more intimate presentation that does engage the listener in a compelling fashion. The Windfeld is drier than these romantics, more spacious, considered and impartial. Yet the Windfeld is not clinical, for clinicality suggests an antiseptic bleaching of music’s life and colour. Perhaps its musical expression is not as developed as a Transfiguration Orpheus, for example, because it does less to sweeten and flatter the performance.
Want to hear a test of a cartridge’s tenacity? Try acapella voices working together in the tightest of keen harmonies, such as the klapa style from the former Yugoslavia. Croation band Lado sing with soul and joy, – seemingly simple voice lines that defeat most pickup cartridges and renders the music less than comfortable to access. Not so with the Windfeld, which sailed through the beats and overtones of closely-spaced voices, bringing a performance into the room.
That this cartridge can track like a limpet and provide strain-free, accurate rendering of the recorded groove is not in any doubt. Yet it also belies a view that the Ortofon sound is somehow too accurate, too neutral and hence lacks drama or life. For by its reading of the groove with such freedom of prejudice and especially by seeming to preserve the natural phase of sound, from top to bottom, it simply plays any record to the best of that recording’s ability. If I now had to choose one desert island cartridge, the Windfeld would be it.

[Bigman80]

For me Ortofon's mission statement is clearly one they live and build there carts by being 'Accuracy of Sound'.

As I say, I find their carts tend to be 'even' and let the music talk more than anything else.

I was reading this old Review on the PW Winfeld, some of which I've copied below. I could identify that Ortofon dna that as I say does not get in the way of the music so when the music comes and you've nailed set up you are enthralled by how much of the recording you start to hear and I dont just mean detail, it's the textural info about the detail and all indvidual parts which just becomes even more insightful the further up you go in my experience...

Some high-end cartridges are more lyrical here, blending more orchestral colour and a more intimate presentation that does engage the listener in a compelling fashion. The Windfeld is drier than these romantics, more spacious, considered and impartial. Yet the Windfeld is not clinical, for clinicality suggests an antiseptic bleaching of music’s life and colour. Perhaps its musical expression is not as developed as a Transfiguration Orpheus, for example, because it does less to sweeten and flatter the performance.
Want to hear a test of a cartridge’s tenacity? Try acapella voices working together in the tightest of keen harmonies, such as the klapa style from the former Yugoslavia. Croation band Lado sing with soul and joy, – seemingly simple voice lines that defeat most pickup cartridges and renders the music less than comfortable to access. Not so with the Windfeld, which sailed through the beats and overtones of closely-spaced voices, bringing a performance into the room.
That this cartridge can track like a limpet and provide strain-free, accurate rendering of the recorded groove is not in any doubt. Yet it also belies a view that the Ortofon sound is somehow too accurate, too neutral and hence lacks drama or life. For by its reading of the groove with such freedom of prejudice and especially by seeming to preserve the natural phase of sound, from top to bottom, it simply plays any record to the best of that recording’s ability. If I now had to choose one desert island cartridge, the Windfeld would be it.Angus heard a Winfield recently. He was very complementary. I trust his opinion implicitly.

Yep, I'm an Ortofon fan now. I wasn't when I had the Rondo Red [emoji27]

That wasn't the best.

[RobbieGong]

Angus heard a Winfield recently. He was very complementary. I trust his opinion implicitly.

Yep, I'm an Ortofon fan now. I wasn't when I had the Rondo Red [emoji27]

That wasn't the best.

Rondo Red doesnt get bad reviews Oli, Was it new or used ?

I'd defo have a Winfeld after the Cadenza ;)

[Bigman80]

Rondo Red doesnt get bad reviews Oli, Was it new or used ?

I'd defo have a Winfeld after the Cadenza ;)Was used but it was very different to the MM cart of been using. Also, the gear around it probably didn't do it justice.

[Manicatel]

Hmmm, beginning to think about a Cadenza (either blue or black) to replace my ageing Arkiv B in my Ekos/Orbe/AR PH5 set up. The Blue has a healthier output than the black, but I could just about stretch to a Black if it is really that much better.
Then again, a Linn Krystal is an obvious choice for the Ekos as an ArkivB replacement.
Anyone here have experience of an Arkiv vs Cadenza?

[Bigman80]

Hmmm, beginning to think about a Cadenza (either blue or black) to replace my ageing Arkiv B in my Ekos/Orbe/AR PH5 set up. The Blue has a healthier output than the black, but I could just about stretch to a Black if it is really that much better.
Then again, a Linn Krystal is an obvious choice for the Ekos as an ArkivB replacement.
Anyone here have experience of an Arkiv vs Cadenza?Robbie has a Caddy Black. Difference between them is mainly windings, cantilever and stylus. Never heard a Caddy black though. How much better it CAN be, well who knows [emoji6]

Ortofon have a limited amount of refurbished Kb in their Treasure Trove. Just Google "Ortofon Treasure Trove".

[Bigman80]

Just looked, it's gone. [emoji50].

[Manicatel]

I didn’t know about their “treasure trove” site. Thanks for the heads up. I’ll certainly keep an eye on it.

[Jimbo]

If anyone is reading this post who has experience listening to the Cadenza Bronze could you let me know your thoughts as I believe this is nearest Ortofon cartridge to the Kontrapunkt B.

[Bigman80]

If anyone is reading this post who has experience listening to the Cadenza Bronze could you let me know your thoughts as I believe this is nearest Ortofon cartridge to the Kontrapunkt B.Isn't the nearest one the Blue, Jimbo?

[CageyH]

If anyone is reading this post who has experience listening to the Cadenza Bronze could you let me know your thoughts as I believe this is nearest Ortofon cartridge to the Kontrapunkt B.

I have not heard the Ortofon, but the offer of trying my modified 103 is still there if you want to try it.

[alphaGT]

The Kontrapunkt b sounds extremely transparent to the point where my system simply disappeared. Even my speakers which made their presence known melted away. Its ability to shine a light into the deepest recesses of the recording was uncanny. Detail was fabulous but never in a HiFi way. The top end is perfection. Vocals are truly three dimensional and totally believable. One of the biggest surprises for me was how the KB played instruments. Tone and texture is there in abundance, full and layered. Trombones and trumpets on jazz material were so rounded and full. Dynamics are handled effortlessly and the whole presentation is very smooth with a very quiet black background and amazing low levels of vinyl groove noise or clicks and pops.

Thank you James! I enjoy hearing from someone who has the vocabulary to put what they are hearing into words. It really is a talent. But I’m afraid you’ve got me wanting to spend large sums of Money! My ‘table and arm, along with my pre, are capable of sporting a much better cartridge than what I’m now using. (Sumiko BP special III). I ask myself, “This sounds so great! But could a better cartridge bring me greater happiness?”, it seems you have answered that question, now I’m wondering what am I missing out on? Apparently a lot! I’ve enjoyed your musings on the KB, you’ve really got me thinking, and counting my pennies.

Russell

[Jimbo]

I have not heard the Ortofon, but the offer of trying my modified 103 is still there if you want to try it.

Thanks Kevin but I think i may have a compliance issue with the 103 and my tonearm which has stopped me short of trying one. Many thanks for the offer that's very generous of you. :)

[Jimbo]

Thank you James! I enjoy hearing from someone who has the vocabulary to put what they are hearing into words. It really is a talent. But I’m afraid you’ve got me wanting to spend large sums of Money! My ‘table and arm, along with my pre, are capable of sporting a much better cartridge than what I’m now using. (Sumiko BP special III). I ask myself, “This sounds so great! But could a better cartridge bring me greater happiness?”, it seems you have answered that question, now I’m wondering what am I missing out on? Apparently a lot! I’ve enjoyed your musings on the KB, you’ve really got me thinking, and counting my pennies.

Russell

Its wonderful when someone kindly gives you the opportunity to hear a great cartridge in your own system. The Kontrapunkt B really does tick all the boxes I was looking for in a MC cartridge and more. If you can get to try one I don't think you would be disappointed. I know a lot of audiophiles have been convinced MC cartridges are definitely the way to go. I wasn't one until now!:)

[karma67]

Just to add a bit of balance I went from a cadenza black to a Denon 103 and really couldn’t be happier, I’ve learnt it’s not all about the fancy stylus tip.

[Jimbo]

Your absolutely right Jamie it's not all about the fancy stylus. I am not sure if it's even about buying the top of the range cartridge like the Cadenza black. It's all about finding a cartridge that has synergy with your system and delivers what is important too you sonically.

[karma67]

Having said that though jumbo I wouldn’t mind hearing the Kontrapunkt b lol

[Bigman80]

Having said that though jumbo I wouldn’t mind hearing the Kontrapunkt b loljumbo [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

FG stylus has been on the cartridges I've like most.

[Jimbo]

I have been called that before:lol:

The Kb is the first cartridge I have heard with a FG stylus, it is also the first cartridge i have heard with a Ruby cantilever.

It is also the first MC cartridge I have heard that makes me want to go out and buy one asap!:)

[Bigman80]

I have been called that before[emoji38]

The Kb is the first cartridge I have heard with a FG stylus, it is also the first cartridge i have heard with a Ruby cantilever.

It is also the first MC cartridge I have heard that makes me want to go out and buy one asap!:)[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Listening to it now. Just does things "right".

[Jimbo]

Having said that though jumbo I wouldn’t mind hearing the Kontrapunkt b lol

If you can get your hands on one Jamie it is definitely worth listening too. I could happily live with a KB and I dont think I would bother looking for another MC.

Interesting that the chap who lent me this cartridge also runs a 103r and is I believe as happy with that cartridge in his system.:)

[karma67]

Sorry mate bloody predictive texts! Lol

[Jimbo]

Sorry mate bloody predictive texts! Lol

:)

[Jimbo]

Well I had a last spin with my borrowed Kontrapunkt B last night and I must say I will be sad to send it back. There is a touch of magic in this cartridge and it seems to be a perfect synergistic match with my system. It was often mentioned in old reviews that the KB went particularly well with valves and I must say this was my experience. Thinking back over the many hours of music I listened too, the outstanding quality was its handling of tonal quality in a very transparent soundstage. These were huge improvements over my 2M Black. Going back to the 2M the treble, although revealing, sounds harsh and spitty compared to the super smooth natural detail the KB exhibited. It is as if the 2M is trying to hard, it is too hifi sounding almost shouting look at me. There is also a leaness to the 2M which the KB did not have.

Not every recording benefited from using the KB in my system. Those that were good sounded magnificent across the board. Every aspect you could wish for was put forward in an even handed natural way. On not so great recordings there was not much to be gained although this is where the 2M helps, but it is probably a slightly artificial enhancement of the recording, a bit like the vivid setting on a TV.

Listening to Kontrapunkt B has made me think what the Ortofon Per Winfeld and the A95 must sound like. Mindblowing I should think? My problem now is in obtaining a really good condition KB or i may have to investigate their current range and try a Cadenza Blue and hope it has the same qualities.:scratch:

[RobbieGong]

Well I had a last spin with my borrowed Kontrapunkt B last night and I must say I will be sad to send it back. There is a touch of magic in this cartridge and it seems to be a perfect synergistic match with my system. It was often mentioned in old reviews that the KB went particularly well with valves and I must say this was my experience. Thinking back over the many hours of music I listened too, the outstanding quality was its handling of tonal quality in a very transparent soundstage. These were huge improvements over my 2M Black. Going back to the 2M the treble, although revealing, sounds harsh and spitty compared to the super smooth natural detail the KB exhibited. It is as if the 2M is trying to hard, it is too hifi sounding almost shouting look at me. There is also a leaness to the 2M which the KB did not have.

Not every recording benefited from using the KB in my system. Those that were good sounded magnificent across the board. Every aspect you could wish for was put forward in an even handed natural way. On not so great recordings there was not much to be gained although this is where the 2M helps, but it is probably a slightly artificial enhancement of the recording, a bit like the vivid setting on a TV.

Listening to Kontrapunkt B has made me think what the Ortofon Per Winfeld and the A95 must sound like. Mindblowing I should think? My problem now is in obtaining a really good condition KB or i may have to investigate their current range and try a Cadenza Blue and hope it has the same qualities.:scratch:

I can well imagine you not wanting to hand it back and a shame you have to.

As you say, the 2MB is great but like you, i too discovered there's something about a good mc that a good mm cant do.

Sorry to go over old ground James but when I had the 2MB, the times I experienced what you have mentioned are when it actually wasnt set optimally - honest.

I've found that window with the Shibata Ortofons is tiny even with on the fly I find it a bugger to nail simply because you have to hear it which isnt easy and takes a lot of care and patience. Once in I've never found the 2MB lean or harsh at all, quite the opposite in fact.

I'm in the middle of having to set my Cadenza B up again and it does my head - Its' the one thing I wish was just a bit easier, less critical, fatiguing with these carts, the Replicant profiles I'm led to believe are even fussier :eek:.

There is just no compromise with the Shibata Ortofons in my experience, BUT without a doubt ime, you'll be properly rewarded once you nail it.
If it isnt quite there, you'll never really hear it in all it's glory or your system for that matter.

The best I've ever heard is when they are definitely in that spot (2MB, Quintet B and Cadenza B) they are most definitely vta critical which I think some folk cant get their heads around spouting 'what about differing record thicknesses' etc.

I'll share this - The bottom line and all said and done is that if the jockey aint sitting comfy in the saddle, aligned and happy, positioned properly in the saddle then the ride is not going to be a good one - think about it..... ;)

I have been literally gobsmacked and in awe of the sound coming from albums I've played to death for decades - just stunning as a result of nailing the sweetspot which has then just allowed the system to do what it can at it's best ! just fab and thats why I'll keep on saying it, the importance of set up is paramount, absolutely. If the aim is to hear the system you / we have at it's best then attention to set up has to be paramount and is critical, otherwise the target is missed, wider than some would imagine or believe.

James, The PW and A95 set up properly will be as you say 'mind-blowing'. I think the A95 might be a bit much for me but from what I've read the Windfeld sounds like it would blow my mind - one day :)

[Bigman80]

Well I had a last spin with my borrowed Kontrapunkt B last night and I must say I will be sad to send it back. There is a touch of magic in this cartridge and it seems to be a perfect synergistic match with my system. It was often mentioned in old reviews that the KB went particularly well with valves and I must say this was my experience. Thinking back over the many hours of music I listened too, the outstanding quality was its handling of tonal quality in a very transparent soundstage. These were huge improvements over my 2M Black. Going back to the 2M the treble, although revealing, sounds harsh and spitty compared to the super smooth natural detail the KB exhibited. It is as if the 2M is trying to hard, it is too hifi sounding almost shouting look at me. There is also a leaness to the 2M which the KB did not have.

Not every recording benefited from using the KB in my system. Those that were good sounded magnificent across the board. Every aspect you could wish for was put forward in an even handed natural way. On not so great recordings there was not much to be gained although this is where the 2M helps, but it is probably a slightly artificial enhancement of the recording, a bit like the vivid setting on a TV.

Listening to Kontrapunkt B has made me think what the Ortofon Per Winfeld and the A95 must sound like. Mindblowing I should think? My problem now is in obtaining a really good condition KB or i may have to investigate their current range and try a Cadenza Blue and hope it has the same qualities.:scratch:Jimbo,

I concur with your assessment of the Kb. Don't be hasty, you've got time on your side and there is usually a good one knocking about somewhere. I'll keep my eyes open for you. Actually, I may have an idea [emoji6]

I'll email you if it pans out.

[Jimbo]

I can well imagine you not wanting to hand it back and a shame you have to.

As you say, the 2MB is great but like you, i too discovered there's something about a good mc that a good mm cant do.

Sorry to go over old ground James but when I had the 2MB, the times I experienced what you have mentioned are when it actually wasnt set optimally - honest.

I've found that window with the Shibata Ortofons is tiny even with on the fly I find it a bugger to nail simply because you have to hear it which isnt easy and takes a lot of care and patience. Once in I've never found the 2MB lean or harsh at all, quite the opposite in fact.

I'm in the middle of having to set my Cadenza B up again and it does my head - Its' the one thing I wish was just a bit easier, less critical, fatiguing with these carts, the Replicant profiles I'm led to believe are even fussier :eek:.

There is just no compromise with the Shibata Ortofons in my experience, BUT without a doubt ime, you'll be properly rewarded once you nail it.
If it isnt quite there, you'll never really hear it in all it's glory or your system for that matter.

The best I've ever heard is when they are definitely in that spot (2MB, Quintet B and Cadenza B) they are most definitely vta critical which I think some folk cant get their heads around spouting 'what about differing record thicknesses' etc.

I'll share this - The bottom line and all said and done is that if the jockey aint sitting comfy in the saddle, aligned and happy, positioned properly in the saddle then the ride is not going to be a good one - think about it..... ;)

I have been literally gobsmacked and in awe of the sound coming from albums I've played to death for decades - just stunning as a result of nailing the sweetspot which has then just allowed the system to do what it can at it's best ! just fab and thats why I'll keep on saying it, the importance of set up is paramount, absolutely. If the aim is to hear the system you / we have at it's best then attention to set up has to be paramount and is critical, otherwise the target is missed, wider than some would imagine or believe.

James, The PW and A95 set up properly will be as you say 'mind-blowing'. I think the A95 might be a bit much for me but from what I've read the Windfeld sounds like it would blow my mind - one day :)

Rob you are absolutely right regarding set up of the 2M but even when it is a 'happy jockey in the saddle':) it still sounds exaggerated/ hyped in the treble compared to the KB which sounds so sweet and natural without any artifacts. The KB just sounds cleaner.

The Windfeld maybe the ultimate MC especially the new Ti which is slightly lighter than the old and would be a fantastic match to my arm.

[Jimbo]

Jimbo,

I concur with your assessment of the Kb. Don't be hasty, you've got time on your side and there is usually a good one knocking about somewhere. I'll keep my eyes open for you. Actually, I may have an idea [emoji6]

I'll email you if it pans out.

Oli, I will hold out for a good longtime for a KB and would probably buy a refurb off Ortofon when one came up rather than go down another route. I don't believe the Cadenza Blue would be the same beast!

Interestingly I was speaking to my Hifi buddy out in Italy and he mentioned a fair bit of what I heard was because of the SUT I was using. He actually changed the jumpers in it for me and compared it against a lot of reference SUT's he has including a Hashimoto. I will definitely bring this along when we nail a date!:)

[Bigman80]

Oli, I will hold out for a good longtime for a KB and would probably buy a refurb off Ortofon when one came up rather than go down another route. I don't believe the Cadenza Blue would be the same beast!

Interestingly I was speaking to my Hifi buddy out in Italy and he mentioned a fair bit of what I heard was because of the SUT I was using. He actually changed the jumpers in it for me and compared it against a lot of reference SUT's he has including a Hashimoto. I will definitely bring this along when we nail a date!:)Ok mate. I look forward to hearing it.

I have sent you an email [emoji6]

[RobbieGong]

Rob you are absolutely right regarding set up of the 2M but even when it is a 'happy jockey in the saddle':) it still sounds exaggerated/ hyped in the treble compared to the KB which sounds so sweet and natural without any artifacts. The KB just sounds cleaner.

The Windfeld maybe the ultimate MC especially the new Ti which is slightly lighter than the old and would be a fantastic match to my arm.

Agree on all counts. The treble on a good mc, and the bass for that matter are better and more natural.

The Ti i bet would be very special and one for when the windfall lands. Andy (REXTON) has his eye on that one too I'm sure :)

[Jimbo]

Agree on all counts. The treble on a good mc, and the bass for that matter are better and more natural.

The Ti i bet would be very special and one for when the windfall lands. Andy (REXTON) has his eye on that one too I'm sure :)

Just watching this video gets ye droolin!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chX535CWgUo

[Bigman80]

I'd go a95 if I had the spare cash. There's just something I like about the build.

[RobbieGong]

I'd go a95 if I had the spare cash. There's just something I like about the build.

I know what you mean, does look rude, stylish, hard, purposeful and vulnerable / exposed all at the same time :)

[Bigman80]

It's a beautiful looking beast

[RobbieGong]

It's a beautiful looking beast

Yeah and knowing Ortofon I bet it would be stunning in a system that could showcase how it extracts the music out of the vinyl

[Bigman80]

Yeah and knowing Ortofon I bet it would be stunning in a system that could showcase how it extracts the music out of the vinylStop it Robbie, I have been looking at them and I can get 25% if I send them my Kontrapunt!!!!!! [emoji23][emoji23] Need another £3k though [emoji50]

[RobbieGong]

Stop it Robbie, I have been looking at them and I can get 25% if I send them my Kontrapunt!!!!!! [emoji23][emoji23] Need another £3k though [emoji50]

ha ha !! :lol:

I feel your pain. I have bad temptations too towards things like the Winfeld which I really shouldnt be having as the Cad B is brill, but cant really as all money gone and I'm trying to save for some Spendors for IF I hear some in my set up and like

This hifi lark eh :lol:

[Bigman80]

Lol, I know. It's a dream item isn't it. Means we can dream lol

[Bigman80]

Jimbo,

If you find a knackered Kb, Ortofon will basically rip out the guts and fit an all new set of innards for €870.

Still feels like a bargain.

[Jimbo]

Jimbo,

If you find a knackered Kb, Ortofon will basically rip out the guts and fit an all new set of innards for €870.

Still feels like a bargain.

That maybe the only sure way to get a sorted one.

The A95 looks like it's had all its guts ripped before you use it!:lol:

[Bigman80]

That maybe the only sure way to get a sorted one.

The A95 looks like it's had all its guts ripped before you use it![emoji38]It's a stunner. I need to stop looking at the bloody things.

[dwhistance]

There's a Kontrapunkt B available at CJM Audio (https://www.cjm-audio.de/phono/tonabnehmer/) in Germany at the moment. It's €600 might be worth checking out if it doesn't have too many hours on it? I'm interested myself but already have far too many cartridges and ought to spend my money elsewhere.

David Whistance

[Bigman80]

There's a Kontrapunkt B available at CJM Audio (https://www.cjm-audio.de/phono/tonabnehmer/) in Germany at the moment. It's €600 might be worth checking out if it doesn't have too many hours on it? I'm interested myself but already have far too many cartridges and ought to spend my money elsewhere.

David WhistanceHours aren't mentioned on that one are they? Also, bit of a gamble and unknown quantity isn't it.

If desperate, then not the worst price.

[RobbieGong]

I think patience (and timing) will bag the right KB, thats been my experience - no tears and money's too tight to mention :)

[Jimbo]

I think patience (and timing) will bag the right KB, thats been my experience - no tears and money's too tight to mention :)

:thumbsup:

[Manicatel]

Kontrapunkt h on the bay at the moment as well.

[RobbieGong]

Kontrapunkt h on the bay at the moment as well.

H eh, Not sure what one of those is like, my guess is that the B was higher up the range

[phonomac]

The Kontrapunkt range had four cartridges, b, a, c and h (for Bach). The b and the a were introduced first with the b being a good bit more up range than the a. The c and h followed, with the c being the most expensive one but quite a bit different from the b while the h was a slightly upgraded a.

The Kontrapunkt b is the only one with the ruby cantilever and the FG80 stylus.

[Bigman80]

The Kontrapunkt range had four cartridges, b, a, c and h (for Bach). The b and the a were introduced first with the b being a good bit more up range than the a. The c and h followed, with the c being the most expensive one but quite a bit different from the b while the h was a slightly upgraded a.

The Kontrapunkt b is the only one with the ruby cantilever and the FG80 stylus.*Swoons at the knowledge*

[emoji23]

[RobbieGong]

The Kontrapunkt range had four cartridges, b, a, c and h (for Bach). The b and the a were introduced first with the b being a good bit more up range than the a. The c and h followed, with the c being the most expensive one but quite a bit different from the b while the h was a slightly upgraded a.

The Kontrapunkt b is the only one with the ruby cantilever and the FG80 stylus.

:) Am I right in thinking the B was the popular one Angus ? Reason I ask is that long before I ever had an mc I used to know and hear about the B and the flagship anniversary Jubilee (which I hankered for) much more than the A, C or H

The Bach bit is great :)

[337alant]

https://www.ortofon.com/mc-kontrapunkt-h-p-622

Alan

[alphaGT]

So if you had a messed up A, C, or H, could they refurbish it to be a B?

And I notice this guy pronounces Ortofon as , “Oar-Tea-Phone”, is that just his dialect or have I been pronouncing it wrong all my life?

Russell


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jimbo]

I don't think the other models can be refurbished to a KB but you could always see if you could do a part exchange for a refurb b?

I think it was not just the cantilever and diamond that was different with each model, the internal parts were also different.

[Manicatel]

Thread resurrection..........
Does anyone know for sure whether a Cadenza Black will fit on an Ekos?
I know the Cadenza has recessed cart pins, but the head shell on an Ekos is kinda small.
Anyone?

[337alant]

Don't know the answer for sure but the Ortofon carts mate up to the headshell with 3 raised sections so it needs a flat surface to sit on
See the picture in the brochure

https://www.ortofon.com/media/14808/mc-cadenza.pdf


Alan

[Clive197]

I used a Kontrapunkt B in my Linn LVIII arm for many years. I see absolutely no reason why a Cadenza Black wouldn’t do same as cartridge body is identical. I still use a Ortofon Cadenza Black but it now sits in a Origin Live arm.

[Manicatel]

Thanks for the replies guys.
I'm aware of the raised ribs on top of the Cadenza, which is to allow for azimuth adjustment apparently?
Its been quite a while since I had a look at the underside of the Ekos head shell, but I'm pretty sure its flat.
My main concern is the length of the cart, as the Ekos head shell is pretty short, along with cart-lead dressing.
Any other comments gratefully received.

[Jimbo]

At last I have managed to get hold of a very nice clean low usage Kontrapunkt b after waiting a few months for one to come up. I was inspired after borrowing a KB earlier this year and now look forward to using one as my main cartridge replacing the mighty 2M black.

I only had the KB for a week but it convinced me that this was the MC cartridge that not only delivered the goods but also gelled with my system perfectly with great synergy. I feel the KB likes valve amplification which has been alluded to in many recent reviews. The search for an MC cartridge that truly sounded outstanding has been a long one as I have listened to many in my system and others and have often been left uninspired. Not so the Kontrapunkt b,this has all the qualities I was looking for and more so I am really chuffed to now actually own one.

Thanks to those who have helped me in this search.;) I look forward to listening to this beautiful cartridge and re discovering my record collection!:)

[RobbieGong]

Fantastic Jimbo.
The Kontrapunkt b is an excellent mc.
It was the first mc i ever heard when Angus-Phonomac brought his over when he first delivered my Sansui AU-919.
I was immediately struck by how refined it was.
After that i moved to mc - all have been Ortofon :)
Looking forward to your feedback once you've span a good few more albums ;)

[Bigman80]

It's great isn't it.

Now if a Vienna comes up!...........,[emoji848]

Lol

[Jimbo]

Fantastic Jimbo.
The Kontrapunkt b is an excellent mc.
It was the first mc i ever heard when Angus-Phonomac brought his over when he first delivered my Sansui AU-919.
I was immediately struck by how refined it was.
After that i moved to mc - all have been Ortofon :)
Looking forward to your feedback once you've span a good few more albums ;)

I think we maybe Ortofon fans Rob!:lol:

[Jimbo]

It's great isn't it.

Now if a Vienna comes up!...........,[emoji848]

Lol


Would love to hear a Vienna, maybe I will soon....:lol:

[RobbieGong]

I think we maybe Ortofon fans Rob!:lol:

Whatever gave you that impression ?!! :lol: :D

[Jimbo]

I noticed that the KB has some lugs on top for azimuth adjustment. Does the Cadenza series have these and if so can anyone let me know how they used the lugs to set up azimuth?:scratch:

[karma67]

hi jim,
the cadenza black i briefly had had 3 lugs on top too,you just tighten one side more than the other and being on 3 legs so to speak it tilts on the side side you've tightened more if you get my drift

[Jimbo]

hi jim,
the cadenza black i briefly had had 3 lugs on top too,you just tighten one side more than the other and being on 3 legs so to speak it tilts on the side side you've tightened more if you get my drift

Thanks Jamie, that makes sense and an interesting method for setting azimuth.:cool:

[Jimbo]

Just setting up Kontrapunkt B - Nice picture capturing the beautiful Ruby cantilever.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1791/42964938651_ae2faecd47_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/28sExok)IMG_1415 (https://flic.kr/p/28sExok) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]

[brian2957]

Enjoy your day of listening James :)

[Bigman80]

Just setting up Kontrapunkt B - Nice picture capturing the beautiful Ruby cantilever.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1791/42964938651_ae2faecd47_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/28sExok)IMG_1415 (https://flic.kr/p/28sExok) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]Nice! That ruby cantilever always make me think it looks a little like a laser beam when the light catches it right.

[alphaGT]

Nice! That ruby cantilever always make me think it looks a little like a laser beam when the light catches it right.

I’ve always wanted a Boron cantilever, but these Ruby ones are most desirable! So which is best? Or what would be the difference?

Russell

[Bigman80]

I believe the ruby cantilever is stiffer which must be beneficial to the generation of the signal.
I’ve always wanted a Boron cantilever, but these Ruby ones are most desirable! So which is best? Or what would be the difference?

Russell

[alphaGT]

I believe the ruby cantilever is stiffer which must be beneficial to the generation of the signal.

Good to know! Many of the refurbished cartridges on Audiogon have ruby cantilevers. I recently saw an Ortofon Anniversary Special that has a diamond cantilever. Could it be better? Or perhaps they are just showing off?

Russell

[Jimbo]

Good to know! Many of the refurbished cartridges on Audiogon have ruby cantilevers. I recently saw an Ortofon Anniversary Special that has a diamond cantilever. Could it be better? Or perhaps they are just showing off?

Russell

The only cantilever which betters ruby is diamond. I think saffire cantilevers have a slightly different sound. As does boron but difficult to find information evaluating these properties, however I am sure the cartridge manufacturers have?

[Bigman80]

I'd suspect better again. What cartridge is that on?
Good to know! Many of the refurbished cartridges on Audiogon have ruby cantilevers. I recently saw an Ortofon Anniversary Special that has a diamond cantilever. Could it be better? Or perhaps they are just showing off?

Russell

[alphaGT]

I'd suspect better again. What cartridge is that on?

It was on an Ortofon 90th Anniversary Model, I can’t recall any model numbers, I saw it online, not in person so I just recall the author was making extra mention that the cantilever was diamond. A first apparently? And they were practically giving them away at the asking price!

Russell

[Cycleallday]

I have a Dynavector Karet with a diamond cantilever.

It has a very fast and distinctive sound; you certainly sit up straight when drums etc are involved - completely different to the laid back KB which I also owned until recently.

Mel

[Bigman80]

It was on an Ortofon 90th Anniversary Model, I can’t recall any model numbers, I saw it online, not in person so I just recall the author was making extra mention that the cantilever was diamond. A first apparently? And they were practically giving them away at the asking price!

RussellAh, the ortofon MC A90. I didn't see that it had a diamond cantilever. I'll check the spec.

[SCIDB]

I believe the ruby cantilever is stiffer which must be beneficial to the generation of the signal.

Hi,

Boron is generally a stiffer and harder material than Ruby. There is not much in it. Boron can be made stiffer by in componds such as Boron Carbide.

[Jimbo]

Hi,

Boron is generally a stiffer and harder material than Ruby. There is not much in it. Boron can be made stiffer by in componds such as Boron Carbide.

Didn't know that Dean, that's interesting!

[Bigman80]

Hi,

Boron is generally a stiffer and harder material than Ruby. There is not much in it. Boron can be made stiffer by in componds such as Boron Carbide.I'm sure I read the opposite. Happy to be corrected though.

Wasn't Boron unavailable for a while?

[CageyH]

Boron is getting harder to source, so manufacturers are looking for alternatives.
One of the reasons the high end Technics cartridges were highly regarded is due to the boron pipe cantilevers.

[Bigman80]

Boron is getting harder to source, so manufacturers are looking for alternatives.
One of the reasons the high end Technics cartridges were highly regarded is due to the boron pipe cantilevers.I'm just about to delve into this a little.

[SCIDB]

Hi,

Diamond is even stiffer than Boron.

Ortofon have a diamond cantilever cartridge called the MC Century


https://www.ortofon.com/media/149921/dsc_9619-2.jpg?width=500&height=376.86567164179104

Carbon fibre nanotube and Graphene has diamond stiffness.

[Jimbo]

Boron is getting harder to source, so manufacturers are looking for alternatives.
One of the reasons the high end Technics cartridges were highly regarded is due to the boron pipe cantilevers.

Jico stopped using Boron and turned to Sapphire and Ruby cantilevers because issues with getting boron but I believe this issue has now been resolved.?

[Jimbo]

Hi,

Diamond is even stiffer than Boron.

Ortofon have a diamond cantilever cartridge called the MC Century


https://www.ortofon.com/media/149921/dsc_9619-2.jpg?width=500&height=376.86567164179104

Carbon fibre nanotube and Graphene has diamond stiffness.

Love to hear one of those!

[Bigman80]

Well, after some digging it seems that most manufacturers reserve boron for their high end carts. There must be a reason for this but what, is very hard to find.

I'll keep looking.

[alphaGT]

Well, after some digging it seems that most manufacturers reserve boron for their high end carts. There must be a reason for this but what, is very hard to find.

I'll keep looking.

It’s extremely rare and expensive, and not easily tooled.

Russell

[Bigman80]

That'll be it then. Apparently quite dangerous to mine too!

Ok, maybe Boron is king of the Cantilevers.
It’s extremely rare and expensive, and not easily tooled.

Russell

[Bigman80]

Mohs scale of hardness :-

Boron 9.5
Ruby 9.0

Well there you have it, Boron IS harder!

[SCIDB]

Hi,

I rremember reading about Ortofon and their boron shortage. Looking around, it doesn't seemed to point to a world shortage of boron. Turkey & the USA seem to produce 3/4 of the stuff.

The stuff is not cheap when compared to iron, copper etc.

I have found a figure of $1114 per 100g for pure boron & $500 per 100g for bulk boron.

http://www.chemicool.com/elements/boron.html

[Bigman80]

That's not cheap at all lol. Can see why they swapped to Ruby/Sapphire for the time being as they have very similar strengths.

[RobbieGong]

Well, after some digging it seems that most manufacturers reserve boron for their high end carts. There must be a reason for this but what, is very hard to find.

I'll keep looking.

Some kind of boron shortage is the reason they are holding what they have for their higher end carts. I think i posted on it some time ago in another thread.

Its why they changed from boron to Saphire for the Quintet Black, which is reflected in current Quintet Black branding - Quintet Black S.

[SCIDB]

Hi,

The bulk of boron is used in compounds. These will be mainly used in the production of fibreglass. It is also used in Borosilicate glass, detergent formulations and bleaching agents, semiconductors, insecticides, high-hardness and abrasive compounds, shielding and neutron absorber in nuclear reactors and many medical uses, wood preversves, flame retardants, production of flat screen displays, elemental boron fiber, and loads more. World demand is on the up.

So I would expect the demand for cartridge cantilevers to be well down the list.

[SCIDB]

Some kind of boron shortage is the reason they are holding what they have for their higher end carts. I think i posted on it some time ago in another thread.

Its why they changed from boron to Saphire for the Quintet Black, which is reflected in current Quintet Black branding - Quintet Black S.

Hi,

Here's the quote from Ortofon

The new Sapphire cantilever solution
Multiple studies show that demand for strategic natural resources continues to increase. New technologies use ever-increasing amounts of rare and strategic resources. Understandable that this increasing demand may complicate future supply.

Over the decades, there has been an increase in the use of Boron. Elemental Boron is mostly used in high tech applications. One of Boron's benefits for our modern technology is its use in neodymium magnets, which are an alloy of neodymium, iron and boron. Boron has also been applied in manufacturing of phono cartridges: Boron cantilevers are strong, stiff, light and 100% inert. From all possible options Boron cantilever is the best, but unfortunately extremely difficult to obtain.

To make sure future supplies of the Ortofon High-End cartridges, we will henceforward reserve the use of Boron cantilevers for our Exclusive series.

The new MC Quintet Black S model is graced with Shibata stylus on the Sapphire cantilever. Sapphire is one of the best cantilever options that provides an excellent mechanical pulse transfer from the stylus to the coil system.

[RobbieGong]

Yep thats the one

[Barry]

The increased demand for boron is in its use in flat screen displays.

Regarding cartridge cantilevers, the most pertinent property ought to be the specific stifness (= elastic modulus/density):

Boron: 157 106 m2s-2

Ruby/Sapphire: 85 106 m2s-2

Diamond: 347 106 m2s-2

[struth]

Bollocks to boron. Lol. It's co2 we are short of. Ner

[alphaGT]

I won’t swear that Ortofon makes their cantilevers this way, but I recall reading many years ago an article about how they had to vapor deposit the Boron in order to create the shaft, cutting it from a larger block was out of the question apparently? Or maybe the vapor deposit method worked out better somehow? At any rate, it doesn’t sound easy.

Russell

[CageyH]

That was the Technics boron pipe cantilever manufacturing method.

[Stryder5]

That was the Technics boron pipe cantilever manufacturing method.

I was intrigued, apparently Boron trichloride is deposited on a carbon substrate using Hydrogen as the carrier gas.

[CageyH]

Sounds cheap, and not at all dangerous to perform.

[mikeyb]

All this cantilever talk is boron.

[emoji23]

[Bigman80]

All this cantilever talk is boron.

[emoji23]🤣

[mikeyb]

I'll be able to comment further on this cartridge come next week [emoji6]

But I'm buggered if I'm going to sell it off cheap to any of you sassenachs if I don't like it [emoji23]

[Bigman80]

I'll be able to comment further on this cartridge come next week [emoji6]

But I'm buggered if I'm going to sell it off cheap to any of you sassenachs if I don't like it [emoji23]Well, I like it a lot. Nothing has dislodged its place here, yet.

[CageyH]

Well, I like it a lot. Nothing has dislodged its place here, yet.

You have only had it 5 minutes, and based on your history, something better will be along soon. :ner:

[Bigman80]

You have only had it 5 minutes, and based on your history, something better will be along soon. :ner:Lol, ive had it a few months to be fair, just didn't buy it until fairly recently. There is always the chance it'll get dislodged but by what!

[Stryder5]

Latest skeletal cartridge https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180627/0a5ba2b309da581213857715ab3e2683.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

Latest skeletal cartridge https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180627/0a5ba2b309da581213857715ab3e2683.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkGood greif

[Stryder5]

Good greif

I saw this and immediately thought of you Oli, can we have a write up plse.:rfl:

[Bigman80]

I saw this and immediately thought of you Oli, can we have a write up plse.:rfl:🤣🤣