View Full Version : Acustic or Psychoacoustic? i dont know and i dont care!
The Vinyl Adventure
06-03-2010, 23:05
I sort of feel like this means that any contribution to this forum or any other as far as im concerned is fairly pointless.
Recent fairly pointless arguments with andre (i dont really know what im talking about) and the on going arguments i see on here between people who know one thing that is the oposite of people who know something else make me realise i actually dont care.
when i bought my quadraspire q4 ref stand i had to get a few bits directly from quadraspire via my local audio-t, i had a chat with the chap who works in there (robin, nice guy, objectivist) he said there is no way that the stand i was buying could effect the type of equipment that was on it, and that if it did change the sound it was either due to the acoustics of the room or psycoacoustic.
well i would say that the improvment i got far far far outwieghed a change in acoustics... but the fact remains - i dont actually know either way, it could have just been that i spent my money and got my psycoustic improvments - i really dont give a toss either way!
i guess this is obviously the reason why i sit more comfortably within the subjectvist camp.
but the one thing i find odd is that even subjectavists are constantly trying to find reasons why the things they do effect the sound positivly .. if it works for you then surly it doesnt really matter!
i am happy in the knowledge that if i buy a bit of kit and it sounds better then it doesnt really matter why, i have spent my money and i have got my benefit.
im gonna make a comparison that might not sit right with everyone on here, but i dont care. subjectivism is like being left wing, objectavism is like being right wing - i am fairly far left wing, im just not a hippy, beltism is for hippys!
anyone got any thoughts on this?
(maybe its worth pointing out that i have been drinking spar gin - i have only had 3 large g&t's though, so im not writen offjust yet ;) )
Spectral Morn
07-03-2010, 00:30
Hi Hamish
The reason, for me to engage in audio discussion (though circular ones are a waste of time), is one of learning from others experiences, and sharing my own. It is only in doing that, that it is possible (one hopes if qualifications are given)to
get as full a picture of all the elements that help make a system work. None of us, have ever tried every bit of kit in every circumstance (some will tell you they have...they are both deluding themselves and lying), but collectively we have got pretty close to that. The pool of information and collective experience can be used as an Audio Rosseta Stone. With this knowledge, both subjective and objective (and both need not be mutually exclusive, its sad when some make it that way)its possible to unlock the hows and whys of system building and get the most out of your system. The answers provided by theseWhyelements, provide the information, that helps you and others get most out of your system.
Its true to say that no one answer fits all circumstances, but even when it doesn't, at least there is usually a starting point to be found in this experience or even measurements, to help in the process of coming up with answers. Someone will have had a similar experience or problem (and solution found) and by taping into that, you can get help...to sort your problem out. Finding out their Why and answer found, and trying it in your context. Quite often will result in you getting your answer, which should/could also apply in similar circumstances, and give an answer for someone else.
Of course, some will throw themselves into this so fully that they may looose sight of the reason for all of this enjoying music, sad when that happens; but it does often tend to be those types of enthusiasts, who have most to share and have the best advice to give. During their obsessive journey, they have tried it and been there more than many of us have. However, they must still be open minded and not closed minded or have become cynical, to be of most value. Its vital to remember always, that just because its not right for you any more, that it might be right for someone else's system or circumstances.
End of the day its about listening to and enjoying music, and if you can help others to get the most out of their systems in that respect, surely that is something worth doing ?
Nice to see, that not everyone is away to the Pie show....still life on AoS, tonight :)
Regards D S D L
The Grand Wazoo
07-03-2010, 00:40
This is an interesting subject. I'd relate it to the use of the placebo in medicine - as long as the result is good, it doesn't matter how it came about & you don't actually, at the end of the day, have to understand how it works.
Of course, some will throw themselves into this so fully and may looose sight of the reason for all of this enjoying music, sad when that happens; but it does often tend to be those enthusiasts who have most to share and have the best advice to give. During there obsessive journey they have tried it and been there more than many of us have.
The guys Neil describes are the ones who's views I would tend to be a little wary of. If you change gear so often, it's likely that you don't know what you want from a hi-fi &, worse maybe you have unrealistic expectations of what can be delivered. There are some exceptions to this, of course - one of whom is a much respected member here.
Spectral Morn
07-03-2010, 00:46
This is an interesting subject. I'd relate it to the use of the placebo in medicine - as long as the result is good, it doesn't matter how it came about & you don't actually, at the end of the day, have to understand how it works.
The guys Neil describes are the ones who's views I would tend to be a little wary of. If you change gear so often, it's likely that you don't know what you want from a hi-fi &, worse maybe you have unrealistic expectations of what can be delivered. There are some exceptions to this, of course - one of whom is a much respected member here.
Hi Chris
I have since reworked what I was saying to be more specific. Actually the people you need to be wary of are those who can't and don't offer qualifications to their advice. They offer self important, hollow advice or poo poo others advice. Those who wont tell you how they got where they have got..outlining their journey are to be approached with caution. Sadly, many who fall into this camp..populate audio forums, not so much AoS thankfully. The only way to learn is by sharing experience (and its detail) and not information light opinion.
Regards D S D L
The Grand Wazoo
07-03-2010, 00:58
Yes, I just read your amended post.
I often think some people are too ready to dismiss and damn a product because it hasn't worked for them or they experienced it not working well in a given situation. As we all know, the possible permutations of equipment are mind blowingly large and what works for here may not work elsewhere. There's actually very little bad hi-fi about - some is bad value for money, yes. Most "bad" stuff is just inappropriately implemented.
(My comment assumes that we all know what we mean by hi-fi!)
The Vinyl Adventure
07-03-2010, 01:09
(edit this was in reply to neils first post, I'm slow typing today)
Yeah I'm still here, reading and trying to learn - not atending scalford, too much on.
Il come back to this a bit more when I have had less gin...
But I do wonder, as someone with little experience, but (if I do say self) a good ear, yet a perhaps more than averagely open minded atitude - what exactly can I provide to the collective? As a (as I have coined for the benefit of this) a far left subjectivist, with no real objective concept - could I not be being completely swayed by the colective opinion?
I imagine I sound like a man of religion questioning thier views in a moment of crisis or something similar? Thats not it, I trust my own choises and views (I'm happy to put the effort in to set up my kit "perfectly" and I know the sort of sound I like - fast precise and dynamic, or realistic (as my perception dictates))) I'm just interested in what other peoples views on this are on this?
Spectral Morn
07-03-2010, 01:12
Yeah I'm still here, reading and trying to learn - not atending scalford, too much on.
Il come back to this a bit more when I have had less gin...
But I do wonder, as someone with little experience, but (if I do say self) a good ear, yet a perhaps more than averagely open minded atitude - what exactly can I provide to the collective? As a (as I have coined for the benefit of this) a far left subjectivist, with no real objective concept - could I not be being completely swayed by the colective opinion?
I imagine I sound like a man of religion questioning thier views in a moment of crisis or something similar? Thats not it, I trust my own choises and views (I'm happy to put the effort in to set up my kit "perfectly" and I know the sort of sound I like - fast precise and dynamic, or realistic (as my perception dictates))) I'm just interested in what other peoples views on this are on this?
You belittle your contribution to AoS Hamish. Your experiences, which you qualify in your own unique way, make you as important as anyone else. Don't ever forget that.
Regards D S D L
Spectral Morn
07-03-2010, 01:23
:goodnight:
I am off to bed now, everyone sleep well.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
07-03-2010, 01:34
Perhaps, but in reality I'm not questioning my own experience, as I said I do trust my own ears, and therefore I would concider my opinion to be as legitimate as anyone elses ... Perhaps that in it's self answers my own question... Perhaps you are right, I shouldn't worry or think about it in the way I have within this thread... By default my opinion, as a far left subjectavist is as valid as anyone else's within the spectrum of this hobbys enthusiasts.. I guess that's the point of a forum? I'm still interested to hear others views on this!
Steve Toy
07-03-2010, 01:45
Remember that placebo effects wear off. The effect of good isolation under equipment is not placebo -that's what the objectivists would have you believe.
On the subject of left/right wing and subjectivism/objectivism there os a strong correlation between left wing, objectivism and atheism on the one hand and right wing, individualism and open-mindedness on the other.
Most right-wingers champion individualism of experience and independence of thought. Most left wingers are collectivists. Subjectivism implies discernment and is therefore too elitist to fit into a collectivist model with its measured one size fitting all.
The Vinyl Adventure
07-03-2010, 02:30
I'm not going to get into that steve, I know my political views are a far cry from yours, yet my views on hifi are similar. I could quite easily make as strong an argument for the oposite of what you have said, after all we all like our ideals to work with each other.. For the benefit of this convo though for those who don't agree with my analogy, disregard it. It's doesn't really relate to what I am saying, it was just for ilustrative perpouses to give an idea of where I am on the spectrum.... It makes complete sence in my head!! :)
this is perhaps another thread, although I fear it could end in nonsence... What was it you joked before steve - taboo subjects - religion, politics and hifi, let's not combine them to much eh ;)
Hamish, in my opinion, the most obvious reason why people try to understand why something happens is a natural human behavior.
It's mechanic : causality (trying to find out which are the reproducible causes so that an effect can take place) is the basis for learning. Ameliorating our knowledge (or experience) is part of our living nature :
Who needs to constantly burn himself touching a hot stove ? It's better to learn that when it's hot and you touch it, you can burn yourself. Still better if you can learn about it without burning yourself, isn't it ? ;)
It's important to make a clear difference between acoustic and psycho-acoustic phenomena : you can't capitalize your knowledge otherwise.
I think part of this is our search to understand why to make sense; depending on our view points will we make sense of this according to our own world view this will be different to other view points. Most of us need to find meaning this does not matter if someone falls into the objectives or subjectivist camp.
Generally I get more positives out forums then negatives, my knowledge increases and I get to share something I am passionate about with others.
I see someone like yourself going on a huge journey of discovery I look at how much your system has changed in the last year and the huge strides it has made in getting you closer to the music I also like your open minded thinking, as you pointed out trusting your ears has served you well.
There is something about the written word on forums where it all can become heated misunderstanding happen quickly.
An interesting topic. (Personally I don't think politics is really relevant here; I know right-wing objectivists and left-wing subjectivists.)
I'm not fanatical about anything very much, and certainly not about hifi. If something sounds good to me, then it is good, and I don't need any scientific explanation as to why that is (or alternatively that it can't sound good, so I must be hearing things).
I think the point of a forum is to share ideas and experience; where it goes wrong is when people become dogmatic for or against a piece of equipment, or technology, or approach to system building. That's why I rarely 'champion' anything; it works for me, in my room, with my ears, and in my system, but might be a complete mismatch for someone else. It's also why I'm not too bothered if someone slags off a piece of kit that I really like.
So: pragmatism rather than dogmatism; relativism rather than absolutism; don't assume that what suits you will suit someone (or anyone) else, and above all, keep a sense of humour and a sense of proportion.
Remember that placebo effects wear off.
Actually, they don't.
Re isolation - how many of you uys place the equipment in the worst possible place - in between the speakers???????? I know it's unavoidable for some, but getting the gear as far away as possible from the sources of vibration - the speakers - can minimise the effects assuming the gear is sensitive to such - and not all is in my experience..
Re isolation - how many of you uys place the equipment in the worst possible place - in between the speakers????????
Not guilty, yer honour!
The Vinyl Adventure
07-03-2010, 14:50
im quite glad i started this thread now, i did wake up this morning with a bit of a hangover (which im still nursing to be fair) and wonder if i had been talking shite but have actually found it really interesting reading peoples thoughts.
im gonna come back to this when the gin has left my brain, im feelin a bit slow to say anything of much use today :)
I still think that regular (if possible) experience to real live acoustic music (I dunno, a live jazz group down the local pub) gives a fair sense of reference upon which to help choice of audio gear, especially speakers. Some get it so wrong yet others give a very passable facsimile and allow us to suspend disbelief.
I find few topics taboo, I think people afrade to discusse something have differant modavations theyed rather not have light shined upon.
Not unlike Hitlers book burning,The Talaban burning books or Obama not wanting the house to have time to read the health care bill before they sighned it or televise the debates or for that matter closeing the public debate that was promised.
So much for transparentcy.
Open diologe is a rare animal don't make it extinked.
I'm not going to get into that steve, I know my political views are a far cry from yours, yet my views on hifi are similar. I could quite easily make as strong an argument for the oposite of what you have said, after all we all like our ideals to work with each other.. For the benefit of this convo though for those who don't agree with my analogy, disregard it. It's doesn't really relate to what I am saying, it was just for ilustrative perpouses to give an idea of where I am on the spectrum.... It makes complete sence in my head!! :)
this is perhaps another thread, although I fear it could end in nonsence... What was it you joked before steve - taboo subjects - religion, politics and hifi, let's not combine them to much eh ;)
Taboo subjects are recipes for canable cookery,kiddie porn and home made
explosives not politics , religion and hifi.
The Vinyl Adventure
08-03-2010, 01:20
Its just a saying Jeff - the three things you don't talk about down the pub politics, religion and money. Steve made a joke in conversation I had with him once - the three things you don't talk about down the pub politics, religion and hifi... I was referencing that joke to make a joke with steve...
I have no issue actually talking about those things where apropriate :)
Coolio Hammish,
I am always in the defence of free speech and open debate as it seems to be an out going trend everywhere.
Glad to see a younger man get's it.
Steve Toy
09-03-2010, 01:55
Taboo subjects are recipes for canable cookery,kiddie porn and home made
explosives not politics , religion and hifi.
Brilliant! :)
It's hard to constructively discuss politics and religion, as the history related to it is consciously selectively discarded by participants. ;)
It's only possible if you don't mind what conclusions are reached.
'I used to have an open mind, but then my brains fell out'.
Peter Galbavy
09-03-2010, 09:25
This is an interesting subject. I'd relate it to the use of the placebo in medicine - as long as the result is good, it doesn't matter how it came about & you don't actually, at the end of the day, have to understand how it works.
Both in medicine and audio I would agree with your sentiments, however... what I do not like is that once a placebo effect is doing something for someone, the less scrupulous members of society come out of their holes and exploit the unconcious gullibility that the placebo brings. I am thinking homeopathy and $10,000 interconnects, for example.
So, IMHO, if it works for you thats great BUT beware of the con artists.
Both in medicine and audio I would agree with your sentiments, however... what I do not like is that once a placebo effect is doing something for someone, the less scrupulous members of society come out of their holes and exploit the unconcious gullibility that the placebo brings. I am thinking homeopathy and $10,000 interconnects, for example.
So, IMHO, if it works for you thats great BUT beware of the con artists.
Of course, the other difference is that an expensive cable will just put you to unnecessary expense. Treatments that relieve symptoms through a placebo effect might be masking a serious medical condition.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.